Thoughts on Dee Gordon Suspension

SultanofSwat posted:

Void their contracts and bring criminal and civil charges for fraud.  Change their uniforms to orange.

I always never really liked the Giant's anyway...

The problem with the whole scenario is that the "haves" (the MLB players), represent the "have not's" (the MiLB players) which is why they protect themselves since the cheaters are really keeping the MiLB players from coming up and taking the "cheaters" spots. The owners sorta care, but not really, as they are more concerned about their bottom line so they don't make too big a stink about it.

When the player union starts to figure out the the "cheaters" are taking money from the honest players then something will get done. With the scrutiny becoming more intense and fewer "cheaters" having influence within the MLB Players Union maybe something gets done. People like Verlander and  if others like Kershaw and other prominent players take a lead and start to demand a clean sport things will happen, otherwise we will hear the endless "gee I am so sorry, I had a protean shake at juice crafters and those sneaky guys did not let notify me that it had Anabolic Steroids in it. I apologize to all of my team mates, and fans, I made an honest mistake, and I will be more careful next time I will scratch juice crafters off my list...bla bla bla" (as I walk away with my $50M contract wink... wink)  It is a crock of shinola and he knew EXACTLY what he was doing and he got caught... oh well I will go hang out in Miami for a few months and enjoy some relaxation and come back rested and refreshed. (and go on and collect the rest of my $48.5M) I agree with SoS, (and TPM and others) this is a classic case of fraud!

Goosegg posted:

Make the team play with 24 instead of 25.  That punishes a team by ultimately reducing depth - for a long time.  The teams will begin to pay attention to what is right in front of them, rather then the Sgt. Shultz approach ("I see nothing").

Also would create a little peer pressure.

BOF posted:

The problem with the whole scenario is that the "haves" (the MLB players), represent the "have not's" (the MiLB players) which is why they protect themselves since the cheaters are really keeping the MiLB players from coming up and taking the "cheaters" spots. The owners sorta care, but not really, as they are more concerned about their bottom line so they don't make too big a stink about it.

Man, I hate it when the cynical explanation makes the most sense.

Swampboy posted:

Goosegg posted:

Make the team play with 24 instead of 25.  That punishes a team by ultimately reducing depth - for a long time.  The teams will begin to pay attention to what is right in front of them, rather then the Sgt. Shultz approach ("I see nothing").

Also would create a little peer pressure.

Changes nothing.  Suspend for a year, then reduce their salary to league minimum for a year.

Then hope management doesn't drop a little something in their red bull to clear salary.

PEDs help any type of player improve - from punch and Judy (P&J) hitters to power hitters.  Likewise, it helps pitchers as well.

It doesn't help hand-eye coordination but it helps reducing the number of outs you make.  Instead of the shortstop or second baseman corralling one of your P&J ground balls in the infield, more of them start squeaking through because of the added power PEDs provide.  Similarly, P&J balls that may have been tracked down in the outfield are now finding more gaps.  Also, pitchers are less able to blow fast balls by you because your bat speed has increased.  Instead of striking out with a runner on third and less than two outs, you may now be able to lift a fly ball to score that guy.  This helps your batting average and your RBI production but does not show up as a "power stat" per say.  There are dozens of examples like this. 

There is no doubt in my mind there is a direct correlation between batting average and PEDs - otherwise Dee Gordon wouldn't be doing them.   

Exactly!

Ban for life or otherwise reinstate Pete Rose.  

Peds and Pete Rose have nothing in common.

PEDs can be so tempting. I witnessed too many college players who succumbed to the pressure over the summer. Most were in NAIA or JuCo so the testing was less strict, but some NCAA players fell victim to it as well. I very clearly remember one outfielder who started "juicing." It was frustrating to be competing with a player who I knew was cheating... but it was Guy Code, or maybe Baseball Code not to say anything.

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Amazon: Going with the Pitch SE

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" (Second Edition)

Ted22 posted:

25lbs from 23 - 28 is not suspicious weight gain by any measure. I am sure Kaat is perfectly fine with the steady diet of amphetamines taken in his era. Pretty easy to be pure when you got no skin in the game.

In Kaat's era the players downed greenies with coffee. Players said greenies were in a candy dish in plain sight.

Ted22 posted:

Peds and Pete Rose have nothing in common.

You're right.  PED's are much worse.  

GoingwiththePitch posted:

PEDs can be so tempting. I witnessed too many college players who succumbed to the pressure over the summer. Most were in NAIA or JuCo so the testing was less strict, but some NCAA players fell victim to it as well. I very clearly remember one outfielder who started "juicing." It was frustrating to be competing with a player who I knew was cheating... but it was Guy Code, or maybe Baseball Code not to say anything.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Amazon: Going with the Pitch SE

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" (Second Edition)

Saw one of the few low reviews on this book.   Now I need to read it.  

"Going with the Pitch" was a masterpiece ... in fiction and vanity. The back cover synopsis by Ken Jacobi promises to give an insider's view into the world of Division I baseball. But instead Jacobi dishes out 300 pages of griping about how he got "shortchanged" over and over. While nearly all athlete autobiographies are laced with a heavy dose of ego and singular perspective, those books are written by superstars and thus, their perspective is unique and interesting. When Jacobi declared that he was "exceptionally good" and had "all the tools and dedication to be a superstar" I realized I was going to be reading the grumblings of another player who was unwilling to recognize his own shortcomings and appreciate the privilege of being an athlete, regardless of playing time. Throughout the book we learn the assortment of antagonists that kept Jacobi from becoming an All-American: all of his coaches at Binghamton, the weather, injuries, academic distractions, playing in the Northeast, and finally, younger teammates who had more skill and thus, were given the opportunity to play over him. Jacobi seems to have spent the better part of his four years second-guessing successful coaches who evaluate talent for a living. It seems he felt he was "owed" the opportunity to develop into a better player during games, at the expense of younger players who already possessed that talent and were well on their way to becoming the program's finest. Does Jacobi really believe there is an NCAA coach at any level who wouldn't play his best players in favor of helping another player try to improve his own game? By the time you get to that level ... winning is a priority ... not whining. Jacobi refers to his journey from a naive freshman to a mature graduate. It seems as if the journey and the maturation are still a work in progress."

Ken Jacobi was a pretty good player.

lionbaseball posted:

Ted22 posted:

Peds and Pete Rose have nothing in common.

You're right.  PED's are much worse.  

Rose bet on his own team. How much worse can that get?

TPM posted:

lionbaseball posted:

Ted22 posted:

Peds and Pete Rose have nothing in common.

You're right.  PED's are much worse.  

Rose bet on his own team. How much worse can that get?

 

Betting against your own team.

As far as baseball is concerned gambling is the kiss of death.

For a professional sport the one thing that must be maintained is the belief that the game is a real contest. That requires a belief that every player is doing his best. Gambling undermines that expectation in a way that few things can.

While one may believe that PEDS create an unfair advantage for the players that take them, (Just like other drugs before may have) they do not create the expectation that players are or might be inclined to play at reduced effort to manipulate outcome. They are performance enhancing drugs after all. The enhancement is also less automatic than many believe.

Rose got what the sign on every pro clubhouse said he would get. And he got it because he brought the most fundamental element of the game into question.

NoVA16 posted:

TPM posted:

lionbaseball posted:

Ted22 posted:

Peds and Pete Rose have nothing in common.

You're right.  PED's are much worse.  

Rose bet on his own team. How much worse can that get?

 

Betting against your own team.

Awesome!  Beat me to it.  

My son informed me that some guys are taking them for stamina due to the every day grind in baseball.  If that's the case, that also would improve your numbers imho.  Instead of going 0-4 on a day when you don't feel your best after traveling the night before, perhaps you go 1-4 or better.  Over the course of a season, those types of things add up.

2019Dad posted:

RJM posted:

Gaining 25 pounds in five years isn't significant. It's very common for a baseball player to gain 15-25 pounds in two years when entering college.  My son was 170 when he finished his senior year of high school. He was 195 two years later while only growing one inch. Once his training and diet was geared to one specific sport rather than multiple sports he put on weight and muscle. His soccer training was torturous. He lost weight every August and fall in high school.

I disagree. He was drafted at age 20 and hadn't gained any weight by age 23 (the Dodgers were "unsuccessful" in getting him to gain any). In those three years, I'm pretty sure his training and diet  were geared to one specific sport. The difference is, he was done growing; comparing your son at ages 18 & 19 (when he was still growing, as you noted) to a fully grown man between ages 23 and 28 is not an apt comparison. Also, putting 25 lbs on someone who weighs 145 is more significant than 25 lbs on someone who weighs 170.

I don't know what Dee Gordon did or didn't do. My point was that a common reaction is surprise, because Dee Gordon is small -- but he is not as small as he was when he was 23. And after years of trying to gain weight, there was certainly an incentive for him to try to get bigger.

 Nearly 100% of my closest friends and acquaintances are meaningfully bigger in some way than they were in their early 20s.  Metabolism slows about every five years, and as a result, people get bigger, in one way or another.  I personally gained about 20-25 pounds from age 23 to age 28.  It all wasn't the kind of weight gain you want, mind you!!!!  But, nonetheless...

For an athlete to go from 145 to 170 is truly an afterthought.  In baseball terms, a player could stop using smokeless tobacco and gain 10 pounds in a month!

ClevelandDad posted:

My son informed me that some guys are taking them for stamina due to the every day grind in baseball.  If that's the case, that also would improve your numbers imho.  Instead of going 0-4 on a day when you don't feel your best after traveling the night before, perhaps you go 1-4 or better.  Over the course of a season, those types of things add up.

That is the main reason why it's taken,  for stamina and feeling better and to get thru the season.  

Seeing first hand how difficult it is to grind it out, I get it.

GoHeels posted:

2019Dad posted:

RJM posted:

Gaining 25 pounds in five years isn't significant. It's very common for a baseball player to gain 15-25 pounds in two years when entering college.  My son was 170 when he finished his senior year of high school. He was 195 two years later while only growing one inch. Once his training and diet was geared to one specific sport rather than multiple sports he put on weight and muscle. His soccer training was torturous. He lost weight every August and fall in high school.

I disagree. He was drafted at age 20 and hadn't gained any weight by age 23 (the Dodgers were "unsuccessful" in getting him to gain any). In those three years, I'm pretty sure his training and diet  were geared to one specific sport. The difference is, he was done growing; comparing your son at ages 18 & 19 (when he was still growing, as you noted) to a fully grown man between ages 23 and 28 is not an apt comparison. Also, putting 25 lbs on someone who weighs 145 is more significant than 25 lbs on someone who weighs 170.

I don't know what Dee Gordon did or didn't do. My point was that a common reaction is surprise, because Dee Gordon is small -- but he is not as small as he was when he was 23. And after years of trying to gain weight, there was certainly an incentive for him to try to get bigger.

 Nearly 100% of my closest friends and acquaintances are meaningfully bigger in some way than they were in their early 20s.  Metabolism slows about every five years, and as a result, people get bigger, in one way or another.  I personally gained about 20-25 pounds from age 23 to age 28.  It all wasn't the kind of weight gain you want, mind you!!!!  But, nonetheless...

For an athlete to go from 145 to 170 is truly an afterthought.  In baseball terms, a player could stop using smokeless tobacco and gain 10 pounds in a month!

 

Sorry, but it's really quite impossible to replace the calories used when you play this game every single day for 6 months.

Unless you are the Panda.

 

Sorry, but it's really quite impossible to replace the calories used when you play this game every single day for 6 months.

Unless you are the Panda.

I'm sorry.  We'll just have to disagree. 

I'm not arguing on behalf of Dee Gordon.  I'm simply tired of "weight gain" being principle to the steroid argument, when it is commonly know that young men aggressively gain weight in their 18-30 years.

One of a zillion examples of professional baseball players who has done so would be Cal Ripken Jr., who checked in around 195 when drafted, and about 225 10 years later (late 20s).   And about 235 in his mid-30s.  

Thomas Davis was a 215 pound safety at the University of Georgia.  Today he is a 240 pound linebacker. 

I simply don't know a young man who hasn't gained meaningful weight in that age range, and I don't understand how your argument of burning calories (ie., being an athlete everyday) equates!?!?!?

Dallas Braden for MLB Commissioner!!!

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=15464255

GoHeels posted:

 

Sorry, but it's really quite impossible to replace the calories used when you play this game every single day for 6 months.

Unless you are the Panda.

I'm sorry.  We'll just have to disagree. 

I'm not arguing on behalf of Dee Gordon.  I'm simply tired of "weight gain" being principle to the steroid argument, when it is commonly know that young men aggressively gain weight in their 18-30 years.

One of a zillion examples of professional baseball players who has done so would be Cal Ripken Jr., who checked in around 195 when drafted, and about 225 10 years later (late 20s).   And about 235 in his mid-30s.  

Thomas Davis was a 215 pound safety at the University of Georgia.  Today he is a 240 pound linebacker. 

I simply don't know a young man who hasn't gained meaningful weight in that age range, and I don't understand how your argument of burning calories (ie., being an athlete everyday) equates!?!?!?

If you burn, let's say, 1500 calories a day, how much do you need to eat to replace those calories that will turn into muscle?

I am not going to argue, weight gain does happen as you age. If  most of us did the things we should be doing daily to burn more calories, we all would be in better shape and maybe even feel better.  

Now I am talking about meaningful calorie intake.

However, I am not one of those who feels most steroid users do so to get bigger, that becomes a byproduct of the use. More or less it I for recovery and for stamina.

In Gordons case, consider how small he actually is could be why he used.  

More PED suspensions coming!