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Not wanting to hijack Branson's excellent "College Fall Ball 2017" thread anymore, I've decided to post my observations and questions here:

We all know the divorce rate in the US is roughly 50%, yet no one I know has committed to that wondrous institution thinking they were not going to get playing time, or that after committing that the spouse was still going to be out there actively recruiting for their position, or worse, that they'd be benched after a few nights for "poor performance."  

Yes, HSBaseballWebber's, all these folks who ended up transferring out of their marriages, went into the commitment thinking that it would work, and that if not a 100% match that they could "make it work," that they were "good enough," that they could "beat the odds" (after all, they've been "clutch" their whole lives why get cold feet now?) and yes, most importantly they believed "that they were loved."  But sometimes it just does not work out.  And I'd say the same for a lot of kids who commit and play freshman year for their chosen college baseball teams.  What I want to learn more about is, "What's next?"  What are the steps?  How does it work?  Transferring.  

Here's what I'm not interested in hearing, "Ya see?  These guys broke HSBBWeb's cardinal rule, they should have gone "where they were loved.""  I get that, and yes maybe, some of them "missed the signs,"  but I don't think they all did.  So Monday morning managing is no help now.  All these guys have crossed that bridge.  Yesterday's news, water under the bridge, have no control over having picked the wrong school assuming that's the case, let's move forward.  I want to pick this up from, "I'm not happy here at school X, what do I do next?"

Like many on this site, my 2018 son played up 1-2 years early in his travel career.  He played with many very solid players who went on to college ball in fall of 2016.  Yesterday was a bad weather day on most of the east coast, and I found myself reluctantly surfing the web due to boredom.  Checked some team rosters to see how these guys were doing now heading into their 2nd year of college ball.  I was floored to see how many are long gone from the rosters of initial school of commitment out of HS.  Shooting from the hip I'd say it has to be close to 50% if they went P5.   35% for guys who went to mid-majors.  I mean, let's just say it was very common for a guy not to be on the roster I last saw him on.  

Found three former teammates of son's who were all 2016s out of HS.  All three were RHPs averaging 6-2, 190, 90+FBs, all had PG grades of 9.5 and 10, and ranked in Top-5 (2), or Top-10 (1) RHPs in their home states.  All 3 went to P5s out of HS.  All three had other D1 and P5 offers.  And all 3 are currently at JUCOs this fall.  Good news is, last month all 3 signed NLIs (again) for D1s for next year.  One going back to P5, the other 2 going to very strong mid-majors. 

These guys were D1 recruits in HS.  They are still D1 guys now.  And yet the initial school they committed to out of HS, just didn't work out.  Were they over their heads?  Should they have gone to mid-majors to begin with?  D2 or D3?  Another poster on another thread said that often guys who wash out of D1s were guys who had more D3 interest in the first place, and therefore they were overmatched from the start.  I get that, but that's not the case here.  And this is just three guys.  We all know these kids.  They are everywhere in college baseball.  It took me 5-minutes to unearth these stories online yesterday during a rainstorm while bored.  Like divorce in America, transferring from one college baseball program to another IS a reality.  And as the dad of a 2018 headed to a D1 next year, I want to learn more about the process.  Yes, I'm the guy on the airplane who asks the flight attendant clarification questions about how exactly my seat cushion turns into a flotation device on a flight from NY to LA.  I'm that guy.  

The transfer process is pretty clear, to a point.  But I have some specific questions for which I'd like answers or info.  They are:

1.  The 3 players referenced above are all at JUCOs now.  One was RS'd last year at his P5, the other 2 seem to have used a year of their eligibility.  They have yet to play a game for their JUCO, and yet they're already committed to D1s for next year.  Were they seen in the summer?  Are college coaches also going to summer college games to scout guys?  Where else would a P5 coach see and recruit a kid who was RS'd on a P5 roster his freshman year?  

2. How does the transfer process work for a player who stays for fall ball as a sophomore but is cut after the fall season, as a sophomore?   Is he now looking to find a JUCO to play at this spring?  Like he has from November to January, now, to find a place?  Or, transfer to another D1, now before January, and then begin his mandatory "sit out" year this coming spring?  He'd have to pull the trigger in next couple months right?  How the heck does a kid who is cut in early November find a place to play by January?  That sounds like a tall order?

3.  Sounds to me, seeing (and reading) the writing on the wall is more beneficial if done as a freshman, as opposed to hanging on for another year trying to right the ship, burning another year of investment and time as a sophomore.  All three of the players referenced above seem to have made the transfer transition fairly seemlessly and I hope it works out for them this time.  It  seems to me that, the transfer process gets more difficult and less common the older you get (as a sophomore, junior, etc.).  That if you're gonna pull the transfer trigger, best to do it after freshman year.  Yes?

Sorry for the long winded post here.  Very important topic and I'm sure there's a wealth of info on the Search Button, and I'll go there too, but I felt the need to share some of my observations of just how common this seems to be an experience for players.  I'll say it again, I don't know anyone who goes into a marriage thinking, "This is gonna be over in a year."  Our sons are no different with their choices for baseball programs at which to play.  But it is very clear that for many of them, arguably half, it will not work out.  Being at least familiar with how the transfer process works can only be a good thing.  

Thanks in advance for any info on questions above.  Including one about the seat cushion that supposedly converts into a flotation device.  Are those two straps really there under the cushion?  I can never get down there to look.  Anyone checked?

 

 

 

Last edited by #1 Assistant Coach
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I can answer part of this for you. 

JUCO’s typically play around 20 games in the fall. As there are no NCAA restrictions against their fall schedule. I know that the JUCO my son had conversations with plays other JUCO’s and D1’s in the fall. These games allow other coaches the opportunity to see players. 

Some JUCO’s are HIGHLY recruited by D1’s. You can find that information by doing research. Some JUCO coaches are great lobbyists for their players as it helps their recruitment also. 

But the competition at your better JUCO’s is very stiff. Don’t let anyone fool you there. 

#1AC,

1. My observations are that players don't truly understand how competitive and difficult it is to make the lineup card in college baseball especially among elite P5 programs.  Players & parents tend to over estimate the recruits talent level.   Once you get there, then you understand the situation and you are burning NCAA time off the clock.   During the recruiting process there is a lot of smoke blown up the recruits you-know-what, and the recruits think the coach has their best interest at heart.  The coach always has his own best interests and the programs best interest at heart.

2. I'm looking forward to the transfer process responses.  Son never considered it.   My understanding is it is very prescriptive per NCAA transfer rules but the rules can be squishy depending on personal situations and how they are presented.

3. I would agree based on people that I know that have transferred.  It is better to cut bait early on.  However, I know quite a few that have tried sticking it out unsucessfully to remain at the school (dropped baseball altogether).

As always, JMO and observations.

Only thing to add from son’s experience is that guys who have college experience get time and others with potential get opportunities. Unless you have special stuff, you better capitalize on the opps, stay ahead in the classroom, stay healthy and stay outta trouble. So many guys get knicked up and it costs them time. A loss Agree with Fenway that parents over estimate their kid’s potential and coaches will defer to older players who have proven themselves. Make your hay in the fall or else. Coaches have to win in the spring.

College baseball is hard and from what I’ve seen staying healthy could be the hardest thing to do. My son got more opps as a freshman because others were hurt. 

 

Were they seen in the summer? Are college coaches also going to summer college games to scout guys? Possibly seen in summer. If so, I would guess a summer coach saw them and called a friend.
 
Where else would a P5 coach see and recruit a kid who was RS'd on a P5 roster his freshman year? Maybe someone who loved the kid while in high school. JUCOs play and practice a lot in the fall, so there would have been many opportunities to see kids.
 
How does the transfer process work for a player who stays for fall ball as a sophomore but is cut after the fall season, as a sophomore? Relatively easy to find a JUCO home for a D1 guy in that spot. Happens all the time. He just has to be realistic and as sure as possible that he's good enough to start at the JUCO. I don't think many guys transfer to D1 immediately (in January) because they would not be playing at all for the entire spring. 
 
It  seems to me that, the transfer process gets more difficult and less common the older you get (as a sophomore, junior, etc.).  That if you're gonna pull the transfer trigger, best to do it after freshman year.  Yes? Definitely more common, I'm not sure about the difficulty part. Lots of guys transfer twice (4-2-4). Maybe the difficulty part has more to do with a guy's situation. D1 to D3 is pretty simple at any time. Grades and academic progress can make things very difficult.

Other than “not going where they’re loved” the mistakes and events I saw were ...

* Not understanding signing the NLI is just the beginning of the challenge

* Picking the dream school as a second or third tier prospect

* Not understanding their maturity level versus distance from home

* Not understanding people live and think differently in various parts of the country

* Grades/eligibility continue to count in college.

* Not understanding all thirty-five players have a lot of talent and being mentally tough enough to deal with what might be a challenge to get on the field for the first time. Staying physically and mentally prepared for opportunity.

* injury having opportunity pass you by

* change in coaching staff

Re ...

1) Not only do JuCos play fall ball some of these kids have already verballed to transfer to a D1 they turned down out of high school. 

2) Are you familiar with the term really behind the eight ball?

3) We sometimes discuss on the board high school kids having the maturity to make the right decision. Imagine an 18/19yo college freshman having the maturity to see the writing on the wall. The discussion I’ve had with people is reminding them is there will be another recruiting class next fall the kid knows nothing about from never seeing them play. Now the kid is competing against an extra year of recruits. 

Last edited by RJM

It just seems to me that when recruiting classes are 14-15 deep every year, your would have to see a minimum of 5-6 drop off every year for many of the reasons mentioned above. I would think an 18 year old kid who has always been the best kid on his team staring at a fall roster of 50 such kids and living away from home for the first around lots of temptations can easily be overwhelmed, and if they don’t want to give up on college ball they immediately have to start thinking about the 4-2-4 route asap. Still nearly 2 years away from my kid setting foot on campus and I know I hear/find instances to discuss with him every day...hopefully the discussions are opening his eyes about what is to come

fenwaysouth posted:

#1AC,

1. My observations are that players don't truly understand how competitive and difficult it is to make the lineup card in college baseball especially among elite P5 programs.  Players & parents tend to over estimate the recruits talent level.   Once you get there, then you understand the situation and you are burning NCAA time off the clock.   During the recruiting process there is a lot of smoke blown up the recruits you-know-what, and the recruits think the coach has their best interest at heart.  The coach always has his own best interests and the programs best interest at heart.

2. I'm looking forward to the transfer process responses.  Son never considered it.   My understanding is it is very prescriptive per NCAA transfer rules but the rules can be squishy depending on personal situations and how they are presented.

3. I would agree based on people that I know that have transferred.  It is better to cut bait early on.  However, I know quite a few that have tried sticking it out unsucessfully to remain at the school (dropped baseball altogether).

As always, JMO and observations.

Didn’t you just say in another thread that none of your boys played college ball, except as a bullpen catcher?

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

...

The transfer process is pretty clear, to a point.  But I have some specific questions for which I'd like answers or info.  They are:

1.  The 3 players referenced above are all at JUCOs now.  One was RS'd last year at his P5, the other 2 seem to have used a year of their eligibility.  They have yet to play a game for their JUCO, and yet they're already committed to D1s for next year.  Were they seen in the summer?  Are college coaches also going to summer college games to scout guys?  Where else would a P5 coach see and recruit a kid who was RS'd on a P5 roster his freshman year?  

2. How does the transfer process work for a player who stays for fall ball as a sophomore but is cut after the fall season, as a sophomore?   Is he now looking to find a JUCO to play at this spring?  Like he has from November to January, now, to find a place?  Or, transfer to another D1, now before January, and then begin his mandatory "sit out" year this coming spring?  He'd have to pull the trigger in next couple months right?  How the heck does a kid who is cut in early November find a place to play by January?  That sounds like a tall order?

3.  Sounds to me, seeing (and reading) the writing on the wall is more beneficial if done as a freshman, as opposed to hanging on for another year trying to right the ship, burning another year of investment and time as a sophomore.  All three of the players referenced above seem to have made the transfer transition fairly seemlessly and I hope it works out for them this time.  It  seems to me that, the transfer process gets more difficult and less common the older you get (as a sophomore, junior, etc.).  That if you're gonna pull the transfer trigger, best to do it after freshman year.  Yes?

...

 

 

 

One of my sons and his best friend took remarkably similar paths and both included multiple transfers.  Both went to two Calif. JC's, a California D2 and then across the country to an NAIA.  Both were all-conference JC players as sophomores.  Both were, at least at some point, in starting roles at their D2 but still found it necessary to transfer after that junior year.  

So, first I will answer #3... As always, every situation is different.  But a transferring senior has far more hurdles to overcome than a player with more than just one year of eligibility.  Demand becomes far less for a host of reasons even if a proven college player.  You better be willing to look where you are sure to be an impact player.

#2 - For all I hear about the necessity of hitting deadlines with applications, I rarely hear about players that are transferring being held up because of deadlines.  Now, getting classes is another matter.  It is certainly easier to do that at smaller schools.

#1 - Where are they seen...  Well, quite often, the player goes back to his original recruiting board and reaches out to the schools that were interested prior.  Otherwise, networking is huge.  The ability to do visits, showcases, etc. is mostly out the window, so you are either a desirable drop down or you better have good credible advocates.  One resource that doesn't get talked about much here - current players.  I am familiar with several players who were either recruited initially or brought in via transfer at least in part via word of mouth from current established players to their coaching staff about an available player. 

One of the biggest issues with transferring is class credits.  It is seemingly becoming worse and worse in regards to how difficult schools make it to get classes transferred... even the most basic 1A classes that should be no-brainers.

I am looking forward to someone answering your airplane emergency seat question... was always afraid to actually pull that sucker out and look myself.

Last edited by cabbagedad

FYI, here in FL, there are a ton of JUCO showcases attended by a ton of D1, D2 coaches and ML scouts in the fall.  That is why they are going into their season already committed.

As far as I am aware, only JUCO vs D2 is allowed. ALSO a player only signs 1 NLI. I may be incorrect, sorry in advance.

I am with Fenway on his point #1.  I also believe the transfer rate is so high because of two issues from both sides. Coaches don't spend enough time getting to know the player and what he is capable of doing on the field consistently and the player and parents being thrilled their son will go to big State U but with no solid committment. Some times it works out, often times it doesnt. 

Get to know the program you are fully  interested in by the roster. Some coaches like a lot of freshman, others don't, some prefer juniors who might get drafted and many have seniors on their team who are impact players. Watch for player injuries (read bios).

Chicago643 posted:
fenwaysouth posted:

#1AC,

1. My observations are that players don't truly understand how competitive and difficult it is to make the lineup card in college baseball especially among elite P5 programs.  Players & parents tend to over estimate the recruits talent level.   Once you get there, then you understand the situation and you are burning NCAA time off the clock.   During the recruiting process there is a lot of smoke blown up the recruits you-know-what, and the recruits think the coach has their best interest at heart.  The coach always has his own best interests and the programs best interest at heart.

2. I'm looking forward to the transfer process responses.  Son never considered it.   My understanding is it is very prescriptive per NCAA transfer rules but the rules can be squishy depending on personal situations and how they are presented.

3. I would agree based on people that I know that have transferred.  It is better to cut bait early on.  However, I know quite a few that have tried sticking it out unsucessfully to remain at the school (dropped baseball altogether).

As always, JMO and observations.

Didn’t you just say in another thread that none of your boys played college ball, except as a bullpen catcher?

I'm not Fenway, but his older son pitched, successfully, at an Ivy, and completed an engineering degree in 4 years.  Many missions accomplished!  (too many commas...sorry)

 

There were several players on son's college team that transferred (in/out).  All different situations, but I thought I would share since they are all so different:

One player "saw the writing on the wall" (or was told) after fall ball that he would get minimal time at MIF his freshman season.  He transferred out for his spring freshman semester to a Florida Juco and did well on the team.   So, he found a place to land very quickly that freshman fall for a spring roster spot.  Not sure where he has landed yet for his junior year of college 2 years later.

Another top HS pitcher signed his NLI at a power 5 conference school.   He saw the "writing on the wall" with limited playing time his freshman year and transfered to son's mid-major D1 college.  Sat out sophomore year at his new school per NCAA rules.  Pitched lights out his junior year and drafted 3rd round this past June. 

Another player tried to walk on to his dream D1 west coast school but did not make the team.  After attending  community college, transfered to son's school and made the team as a walk-on his sophomore year.  However, because of the early recruiting time-line, the roster was full (plus no one quit or hurt, etc.)  so he didn't make the team his junior year.  His playing days are done; however, after getting his masters in 2018, his future job may be with a MLB team.  Several interviews are already lined up for the winter meetings, I understand.

Another player went D1 (one year)  then Juco (one year) then son's school for 2 years.  Three  different schools is tough, and he had a few classes he still needed to graduate so he is currently in his 9th semester. 

Our state's POY several years ago finished his degree at his out of state school in 2 1/2 years with moderate playing time (84 ABs in 2 years).   Shows up in the spring to son's school for a masters program with 2 years of eligibility left and since he had already graduated, can play right away.  Voila!  There is a spot for him!  Plays wonderfully for his 3rd season (231 ABs, .368 avg with 11 HRs) and gets drafted that year with a college degree AND one year of graduate school in hand.  (He is brilliant).

So, like in these examples, you may can find a place to land after fall freshman year to play at a Juco.  Florida has quite a few, and there are a few closer by in NC (Pitt and Louisburg).  

I think some D1 schools will have committed players go to a Juco first for a year to get their "feet wet" with playing time.  It is a prearranged agreement ahead of time.  I know of  two instances where this probably happened.

JuCos are normally 2 year programs, so transferring in after sophomore year may be impossible.....what classes would the player take?  Plus, you have 5 years to get in 4 years of playing.....time is ticking.....and although you could get drafted out of the Juco, how many D1 coaches want a player with only one year of eligibility left?  

I don't think son's college was unique.....there are many comings and goings to rosters.

 

 

Last edited by keewart
keewart posted:

There were several players on son's college team that transferred (in/out).  All different situations, but I thought I would share since they are all so different:

One player "saw the writing on the wall" (or was told) after fall ball that he would get minimal time at MIF his freshman season.  He transferred out for his spring freshman semester to a Florida Juco and did well on the team.   So, he found a place to land very quickly that freshman fall for a spring roster spot.  Not sure where he has landed yet for his junior year of college 2 years later.

Another top HS pitcher signed his NLI at a power 5 conference school.   He saw the "writing on the wall" with limited playing time his freshman year and transfered to son's mid-major D1 college.  Sat out sophomore year at his new school per NCAA rules.  Pitched lights out his junior year and drafted 3rd round this past June. 

Another player tried to walk on to his dream D1 west coast school but did not make the team.  After attending  community college, transfered to son's school and made the team as a walk-on his sophomore year.  However, because of the early recruiting time-line, the roster was full (plus no one quit or hurt, etc.)  so he didn't make the team his junior year.  His playing days are done; however, after getting his masters in 2018, his future job may be with a MLB team.  Several interviews are already lined up for the winter meetings, I understand.

Another player went D1 (one year)  then Juco (one year) then son's school for 2 years.  Three  different schools is tough, and he had a few classes he still needed to graduate so he is currently in his 9th semester. 

Our state's POY several years ago finished his degree at his out of state school in 2 1/2 years with moderate playing time (84 ABs in 2 years).   Shows up in the spring to son's school for a masters program with 2 years of eligibility left and since he had already graduated, can play right away.  Voila!  There is a spot for him!  Plays wonderfully for his 3rd season (231 ABs, .368 avg with 11 HRs) and gets drafted that year with a college degree AND one year of graduate school in hand.  (He is brilliant).

So, like in these examples, you may can find a place to land after fall freshman year to play at a Juco.  Florida has quite a few, and there are a few closer by in NC (Pitt and Louisburg).  

I think some D1 schools will have committed players go to a Juco first for a year to get their "feet wet" with playing time.  It is a prearranged agreement ahead of time.  I know of  two instances where this probably happened.

JuCos are normally 2 year programs, so transferring in after sophomore year may be impossible.....what classes would the player take?  Plus, you have 5 years to get in 4 years of playing.....time is ticking.....and although you could get drafted out of the Juco, how many D1 coaches want a player with only one year of eligibility left?  

I don't think son's college was unique.....there are many comings and goings to rosters.

 

 

Obviously, all the player can do is take it one day at a time, and deal with things as they come.  As each of your examples illustrates.  I appreciate all the posts here.  Have learned a lot in one day.  Thanks for all the info.  In the back pocket it goes, hopefully never needing it!

Not exactly on subject but hopefully helpful: Be prepared to dig into your son's existing classes at school number 1, to make sure the credits will be accepted at school number 2.  I played helicopter academic dad with school number 2 and after my son was there for 3-4 months, we got 6 credits added by quoting from school's handbook.  Just because some credits are initially denied, stay on it if you have a solid basis for credits transferring.  

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