Tryouts

I'll even take this one step further, how about swapping the high school football and baseball seasons? Here in the midwest the baseball teams start games around the 3rd week of March. It will be cold, wet and really miserable outside. Not bad for football, lousy for baseball. In August/September when football season starts, it is beautiful here, perfect weather for baseball.

Grinder, will never happen. Football is a fall sport and shall remain a fall sport. Besides, you move football to a spring sport and you eliminate two-a-days. Does that mean practices start around Feb 10 and games don't start until April?

Not sure why you'd have to eliminate two-a-days for football... our baseball team does indoor practice twice a day now - early morning and again after school. My son left at 4:15 this morning and won't get home until close to 7:00 tonight. I'm all for switching the seasons - the best baseball weather is often from August through mid-October. And football players fare much better in the cooler temps anyway. Less of them dropping over from heat stroke that way.

But I agree that the indoor tryouts are impossible - other than pitching, which is still not ideal but at least do-able. Our coach tells our players that summer high school ball IS part of the tryout process - if you hope to make the varsity team in the spring, you better play with the summer team as much as humanly possible and give the coaches a chance to see how you play in game situations on a real field.

I know my son actually had tryouts outside on friday which was a first.

I agree, fall weather is much better for baseball than spring.

The high school I'm at for my clinical rotation this semester was outside everyday last week. No the field wasn't perfect nor was the weather but they were outside nonetheless.

I agree that spring weather is not great for baseball especially for a short high school season and tryouts in a gym are not fair to someone who is a great outfielder and/or hitter, espically if the coach does't have a great eye for baseball talent (Iam talking freshman teams as upper levels have already been seen--unless they are knew or were cut previous year or have improved over year)Anyway Illinois has always had bad spring and always will, no way football is moving so it is what it is. I feel for the kids who get cut, one of my son's best friends did and I beleive he was better then a few who made the team but my opinion doesn't matter. Another of the leasons in baseball that life isn't always fair.

Baseball Dad, Please encourage your son's friend to keep working at it and try out again next year. After freshmen year, many kids drop off because of either lack of playing time or realizing that they weren't quite as good as they thought they were compared to the competition. My son's sophomore team only had 13 players on it. Several kids went out for track instead after struggling freshmen year.

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Now's the time of year that we hear all about the flaws in the high school baseball tryout process. As far as I know, baseball (and softball for that matter) is the only high school sport to conduct tryouts in settings which have absolutely no relevance to the game of baseball (i.e. gyms, fieldhouses, and the like). Thus, the argument can be made that a propsect's true baseball skills simply cannot be completely assessed without seeing their navigation around a baseball diamond...something that's accomplished at every other level of baseball...from little league to the pros.

Huh? Isn't the chicagoland area is loaded with indoor facilities to which players train in preparation for the upcoming season that is played outdoors? It is pretty easy to see whether or players can run hit and throw.

Then Little League must be flawed as well as almost every other baseball team tryout in Illinois. Athleticism is what coahes want to see & many times you can tell that in about 30 seconds. JMHO

I don't like the weather here either but I think the kids are given a fair shot by all the coaches I have seen. You always miss a few.....

A good high school coach once told me the two hour try outs are a joke. He could usally pick his team by watching the kids play catch in warm ups.

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Originally posted by bballdad1954:
A good high school coach once told me the two hour try outs are a joke. He could usally pick his team by watching the kids play catch in warm ups.

That comment reeks of arrogance. My greatest strength as a coach was talent evaluation. I'm glad we had a week of practice before I made cuts. It takes time to see skills. Everything isn't obvious. I think that's why many HS coaches are lousy talent evaluators, either they don't know what to look for or they're too lazy to take the time.

The trifecta of coaching is
1. Talent evaluation, not just who is best, but who has specific skill sets that fit a model you are trying to build and also who's skill sets compliment who elses?

2. Teaching the game

3. Motivation and coaching skill

Quite honestly, most HS coaches are lucky if they have 2 of those, and the least likely one to have is #1. IMHO

Too many coaches like to think they have something figured out and quit learning and adapting. We see it everyday in either coaches being out of touch with kids or "my way or the highway" or they just think they already got it figured out, why continue to learn?


I'd look that coach in the eye and ask him how long it's been since he gave a hoot about the kids and coaching and went on autopilot collecting checks.

Good coaches care, continue to learn, and take time to evaluate their kids, their staff, themselves.

You are way off base with this one CPLZ.

He still held try outs. In a lot of high schools there aren't that many kids that try out, and many have no clue. I didn't provide the context to the staement. If it is a large program with a lot of talented kids, he would not have made the statement. It is my fault for not providing the context. But for you to go on a rant and rip a guy who you don't know for one out of context statement is over the top. And you are completely wrong about that coach, his committment to kids, and his abilities. Wow.

bballdad1954.
My comments were directed at the context in which you gave them.

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...two hour try outs are a joke.

That statement alone deserved my response. I ripped the guy who made that statement, and I stand by that.

You offered it within the framework of the conversation about tryouts and how difficult it can be to pick a team. It sounds like you're backpedaling now and offering up new information to justify the quote.

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He could usally pick his team by watching the kids play catch in warm ups.

This quote makes it sound like a guy who has never seen any of these kids before, walks out on the field, and can figure it out in an instant because he's such a great coach. You tell me how else anyone can take that?

Revisionist history doesn't work well with a paper trail.

In 10 minutes, I think you can probably pick out the top 4 or 5 kids. Without a radar gun I think you can watch young pitchers warm up before they get on the mound and pick out the top one or two guys. I don't think that is arrogance, it is reality.

I think, the reason the tryouts are longer (all week)is because it is harder to pick out the last 15 kids than it is to pick out the first 15. (Freshman) That is where you might miss a kid - not at the top.

High school coaches are also going to factor in projectability & look at body types. Especially with the freshman.

It is not that he could pick them out because he is a great coach. He could pick them out because of how they throw and catch mechanically, not his supernatural perception.

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Originally posted by bballdad1954:
A good high school coach once told me the two hour try outs are a joke. He could usally pick his team by watching the kids play catch in warm ups.

This comment is arrogant because it shows no respect for the process or the kids; and doesn't provide what all of us need to be successful in anything we do, which is for someone to give us an opportunity.

Considering this comment as well as others about size, projectablility etc., I wonder if our little 5'5" LHP that throws maybe MAYBE 70 but keeps the ball down, hits spots, and takes a big nut sack with him out to the mound, and BTW made some big dogs look rather silly; could make the teams with coaches that don't think they need tryouts, and/or put a lot of stock in size and projectability.

Kids that can help you win are also smart, coachable, have desire and intestinal fortitude. No coach is going to pick these things up watching kids playing catch before tryouts.

What try out tests intestinal fortitude. Is it the 60 yd dash? Which drill shows who is coachable? Taking fly balls and ground balls? Which drill shows who has baseball instincts?

Try outs by their nature cannot provide all you are saying they do. Kids get missed, some that don't "deserve it" get picked. It apens all through baseball. Don't kids that are big and strong get picked over better ball players the don't have the size or "projectibility".

Unless a series of games are played, which doesn't happen, all your longer try outs are limited in whatthey accomplish no matter how you defend them. Especially indoor try outs.

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I think that's why many HS coaches are lousy talent evaluators, either they don't know what to look for or they're too lazy to take the time.

The trifecta of coaching is
1. Talent evaluation, not just who is best, but who has specific skill sets that fit a model you are trying to build and also who's skill sets compliment who elses?

2. Teaching the game

3. Motivation and coaching skill

Quite honestly, most HS coaches are lucky if they have 2 of those, and the least likely one to have is #1. IMHO

What context should I take this in? CPLZ whether it be fact or opinion, I believe it is about as unfair (inaccurate) of a comment as the catch evaluation.

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Originally posted by Playball2:

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I think that's why many HS coaches are lousy talent evaluators, either they don't know what to look for or they're too lazy to take the time.

The trifecta of coaching is
1. Talent evaluation, not just who is best, but who has specific skill sets that fit a model you are trying to build and also who's skill sets compliment who elses?

2. Teaching the game

3. Motivation and coaching skill

Quite honestly, most HS coaches are lucky if they have 2 of those, and the least likely one to have is #1. IMHO

What context should I take this in? CPLZ whether it be fact or opinion, I believe it is about as unfair (inaccurate) of a comment as the catch evaluation.

Why would an honest assessment of a situation based on years of experience be unfair? I see talent evaluation elude HS coaches on a regular basis at all levels. This observation, and the resultant conclusion is neither insincere nor ignorant.

The difference between the two conclusions, mine and the catch evaluation, is that I don't claim to be able to make snap judgments with minimal evaluation.

You are free to disagree, since it is objective, and I am open to discussion. But based on my own personal observations and experience, my conclusion is accurate and the claim that it is unfair, cannot be substantiated. Therefore, my conclusion may be wrong, but not unfair in the manner in which it was derived.

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That comment reeks of arrogance. My greatest strength as a coach was talent evaluation. I think that's why many HS coaches are lousy talent evaluators, either they don't know what to look for or they're too lazy to take the time.

Quite honestly, most HS coaches are lucky if they have 2 of those, and the least likely one to have is #1.

And the comment you quoted reeked of arrogance? You must have been a professional coach or something because you seem to have it all figured out...

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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That comment reeks of arrogance. My greatest strength as a coach was talent evaluation. I think that's why many HS coaches are lousy talent evaluators, either they don't know what to look for or they're too lazy to take the time.

Quite honestly, most HS coaches are lucky if they have 2 of those, and the least likely one to have is #1.

And the comment you quoted reeked of arrogance? You must have been a professional coach or something because you seem to have it all figured out...

Please detail the arrogance you speak of. I've played, coached, administrated and observed over 4 decades, which I would think, give reasonable basis for opinion, even an unpopular one.

I would challenge you to refute my opinion. Over the course of your experience, were a majority or minority of coaches proficient in those three phases of a sport?

Let's keep this objective, it's not an attack on the coaching profession. To say that all coaches, or even a majority of coaches, are proficient in 2 or even 3 of those elements is to ignore the differences in coaches abilities and talents from level to level and even school to school at the same level.

There's even hall of fame coaches who didn't possess all three proficiently. Ray Meyer at Depaul is a great example. Incredible talent evaluator, great motivator and instructor, lacked coaching skills at game time. He admitted it was his weak point. There's no shame in not possessing great skills, therefore why would it be arrogant to point that out?

As a coach, I suffered from the same thing. I always needed a good in game assistant to point things out to me during the flow. I felt like I had two of three and was lucky to have those two.

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Originally posted by bballdad1954:
What try out tests intestinal fortitude. Is it the 60 yd dash? Which drill shows who is coachable? Taking fly balls and ground balls? Which drill shows who has baseball instincts?

Try outs by their nature cannot provide all you are saying they do. Kids get missed, some that don't "deserve it" get picked. It apens all through baseball. Don't kids that are big and strong get picked over better ball players the don't have the size or "projectibility".

Unless a series of games are played, which doesn't happen, all your longer try outs are limited in whatthey accomplish no matter how you defend them. Especially indoor try outs.

I agree with you. If a tryout encompasses a 2-hr workout which only allows for the traditional types of athletic and skill assessments: 60, arm velocity, pop time, 1/2 dozen ground balls and a dozen swings, yada yada yada (that must be the stuff important to picthers yada yada yada); you aren't going to be able to pick-up important intangibles, and is poor excuse for missing on a kid. However if a coach dedicates more time I submit that a measure of a kids coachability, desire and fight can be assessed by a good coach. No team is going to win running out 9 Nuke LoLoosh types on the field.

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But based on my own personal observations and experience, my conclusion is accurate and the claim that it is unfair, cannot be substantiated. Therefore, my conclusion may be wrong, but not unfair in the manner in which it was derived.

I believe that your statements about HS coaches specifically is in accurate because you fail to include a number of things, but primarily the level of talent which trys out for the team. Your experience maybe local, but to place all HS coaches in the lousy box is unacceptable and unfair. Regardless of your experience, it is that, yours. I think it inaccurate when you detail it as being the experience. Your experience fails to encompass all. Even the laziest of coaches will look for those skills that will help them be successful and give them the best chance to win, so they won't have to work that hard. Philosophically, when your selecting players for a team programs may opt to place the 9 best on the field, while other programs may look to play the best 9. Again, while your experience may be expansive, I am not convinced that you, I or anyone can detail a fair description of all HS coaches attitudes and motivations in the selection of an athlete or athletic team.

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Originally posted by Playball2:
but to place all HS coaches in the lousy box is unacceptable and unfair.

I never said that, that is your characterization of my statement and is inaccurate.

I did say that most are lousy talent evaluators and I believe that to be true, and not limited to just baseball. That means they lack a specific skill, but doesn't paint their total effort as being lousy coaches. I had no intention of making that inference as it is not true. I should have used a better term than, "lousy", as that has a negative connotation to it that I didn't intend, and probably would have been better served by better word choice...for that I apologize.

A pitcher with a lousy change up is not a bad pitcher, he only lacks a single skill and can still be a great pitcher by excelling at other skills.

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Originally posted by Playball2:
Even the laziest of coaches will look for those skills that will help them be successful and give them the best chance to win, so they won't have to work that hard.

But, if they have never worked on their evaluation and identification skills, or simply lack the ability, then they can look all they want, and still are incapable of the right decisions. Let's not confuse activity with achievement.

Talent evaluation can be worked on, but my opinion is that much of it is an intangible asset, you either see it or you don't. It's much like an umpire. I've seen umpires that for 10 years have never been able to see a curveball come from outside the zone, hit the edge, and call it for a strike. He just doesn't see it, and showing it to him 10,000 times won't make him see it any better. Talent evaluation is much like that. If you have an eye for it, someone can show you the nuances of what to look for, what it means, and how it translates into specific abilities/skills. You need to learn what to look for, but if you have "it", meaning an eye for talent evaluation, then you can identify specific skills in athletes. There is a great deal of natural ability involved, just as there is with other facets of sport. There is no shame in not possessing it, only in not working on developing it.

Jerry Wainwright, Depaul basketball coach, jokes that when he was an assistant at Wake Forest, he was the guy that recommended they not offer a scholarship to David Robinson.

Well put CPLZ, in out town those of us who have coached have seen many of these kids trying out over the years.

Some of the picks just made us scratch our heads, thinking "he must have shown the coach something in those 3 days".

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Originally posted by CPLZ:
Jerry Wainwright, Depaul basketball coach, jokes that when he was an assistant at Wake Forest, he was the guy that recommended they not offer a scholarship to David Robinson.

And looking at what DePaul did in the Big East this past season, he still doesn't have "it."

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Originally posted by dazed63:
Well put CPLZ, in out town those of us who have coached have seen many of these kids trying out over the years.

Some of the picks just made us scratch our heads, thinking "he must have shown the coach something in those 3 days".

Or maybe the other guys showed the coach something -- a failing report card. An outsider might see the next ARod get cut from the HS team and think the coach is insane .... but why take a kid who won't ever be eligible to play this season? Maybe the coach pulled him aside and said "you can't play, but we would love to have you be around the guys so you'll be ready next year".

Then the roster spot gets filled by someone that can contribute.

Many High Schools have summer camps for the younger players. Incoming Freshman would be wise to attend them as the more they are seen they better they will be off. Another week of evaluations is wise.....

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There is a great deal of natural ability involved, just as there is with other facets of sport. There is no shame in not possessing it, only in not working on developing it.

There is a difference between saying the above and saying that they are lousy or lazy, that is an accurate characterization of what was said.

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Originally posted by Playball2:

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There is a great deal of natural ability involved, just as there is with other facets of sport. There is no shame in not possessing it, only in not working on developing it.

There is a difference between saying the above and saying that they are lousy or lazy, that is an accurate characterization of what was said.

I said this originally...

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originally posted by CPLZ:
I think that's why many HS coaches are lousy talent evaluators, either they don't know what to look for or they're too lazy to take the time.

Nowhere did I say HS coaches were lousy coaches or lazy. This sentence deals specifically with talent evaluation skills, how common they are, and why they might be lacking. I don't see how you could attribute any more than that to it.

I'm trying to understand your point.

Although we're lucky enough in Georgia to have our tryouts outside in the spring, our coach augments that with a fall ball season. The Dugout Club pays for a trusted outside coach to play freshmen and sophomores against other high school fall ball teams. He reports back to our high school coach (who is of course not allowed on the field before a certain date in spring). That way incoming freshmen as well as sophomores who didn't make the team first time around get to demonstrate their talents not only in the somewhat artifical situation of tryouts, but also in game situations. Although some talent may slip through the cracks, many will get picked up or dropped in their sophomore year. I am no expert or former coach, but I've noticed that some kids are incredible at drill or practice situations. Once they hit the field and play the game, they can fall apart. Others I've seen are adequate (not standouts) in practice or drills, but hit the game and become a totally different player. I always sympathize with coaches, because you can't truly evaluate a player without having seen him on the field. They simply must do the best they can with the circumstances they must deal with.

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Originally posted by bballdad1954:
A good high school coach once told me the two hour try outs are a joke. He could usally pick his team by watching the kids play catch in warm ups.

Our state requires a three day tryout. I'm guessing the coach knew the rosters for all three teams (varsity, JV and freshman) before tryouts started. Switch two players and I picked the varsity and JV teams just from prior exposure to players.

You can tell watching kids warm up, take three swings, field three balls and take three leads of first. You can throw a ball over a outfielder's head in a gym and watch how he reacts. The only kids who might get "screwed" are players new to the program who are marginal talent and probably won't make varsity down the road anyway. If the coach makes mistakes on bubble players between varsity and JV he has a few weeks of preseason to correct it.

At our high school the varsity coach keeps tabs on the middle school team, provides off season workouts from the fall to the beginning of tryouts and coaches an 18U fall travel team prospective varsity prospects are invited to play. My son won his position (first year varsity player) long before tryouts.

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I wonder if our little 5'5" LHP that throws maybe MAYBE 70 but keeps the ball down, hits spots

Your son MAKES the team due to prejudice and projectability. He's a lefty.

My son's high school had 2 days of tryouts but what for??? The coaches told the three freshman that were to be moved up to JV before tryouts even started. My son is always overlooked because he is a one sport kid and a good student. The three kids that were moved up are the popular ones NOT the best. I just told my son to go out and prove to those stupid coaches what a bad mistake they made.

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Originally posted by RJM:

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I wonder if our little 5'5" LHP that throws maybe MAYBE 70 but keeps the ball down, hits spots

Your son MAKES the team due to prejudice and projectability. He's a lefty.

I always knew he was a lefty.

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My son is always overlooked because he is a one sport kid and a good student.

My son was cut from the basketball program after being the starting point guard on the freshman team last year. He did not attend offseason workouts until two weeks before tryouts because he was playing s****r and travel fall ball for the varsity baseball coach. The coach cut him for lack of commitment to the program he felt would make a difference by junior or senior year. Sometimes kids just have to make choices.

"The coaches told the three freshman that were to be moved up to JV before tryouts even started."

When my son was a freshman three were invited to tryout for varsity. They weren't expected to make varsity. But they knew they weren't going to be assigned to the freshman team. They played JV.

"The three kids that were moved up are the popular ones NOT the best."

I've never seen this happen. I've only heard the accusation from parents who underestimate the talent and potential upside of those "popular" kids and overestimate their kid's talent. Good players don't get screwed. Marginal players get screwed every year according to their parents.

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Originally posted by RJM:
Good players don't get screwed. Marginal players get screwed every year according to their parents.

I'd beg to differ with you on that one. A little convoluted, but here's what happened as evidence.

Soph playing on varsity since frosh, hits a TON, good fielder, so so pitcher. This kid is a legit stud at the plate and deserves to be playing Varsity (now plays D1). Thing is, daddy sits in the dugout with the coach.

Junior pitcher, always been a front line starter at every level coming up, not getting many chances at varsity. Logs 10 innings with an ERA under 1, draws a start due to poor performance of a different starter. Throws a complete game 1 hitter. Next morning, soph pitches, gives up 8 earned in an inning and a third. Next week, junior sits, soph starts. Pretty much went that way the whole season. Junior wound up the season with an ERA under 1 and only drew 1 more varsity start that year.

The next year, junior, as a senior set all the pitching records at the HS and went on to D1 as a pitcher. The soph will never see the mound in college.

Good players can get screwed, I've watched it happen.

I forgot to tell you RJM that it wasn't just me shocked that my son didn't get moved up to JV. My son works with a pitching coach all winter, who by the way has played AAA ball, and was also baffled by this situation. We have had other local schools who would love to have him on their team but because of money and residence it can't happen. The politics stink and I guess we will have to live thru it.