A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
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We carried 24 last year. Though in our area Varsity and JV are one team. If you don't get significant playing time during the week and during the first Saturday game, you play in the JV game on Saturday. Wasn't as much complaining as I expected, though its generally accepted that Sr's play over Jr's on our team. There are a few exceptions but its usually only 1 or 2 Jr's getting significant V playing time. If you figure 1/2 the team is Sr's, factor in pitchers, there really are not many Sr's not playing. That probably leads to pacifying the parents,
We had 29 last year, and have 25 this year. Strong but not overwhelming team, with 9 sophs who are all potential starters. Once on Varsity, no JV option, but hope springs eternal, as someone once said. Everyone's excited now (first pre season tournament game is today) but in a few weeks who knows.
I think rosters should be smaller but in this situation I'm just a hopeful dad.
Over the last 14 seasons, I’ve seen as many as 26 and at least 5 other times more than 20 were carried. But there are a lot of reasons for carrying that many players, and every season we play at least a few teams suiting up more than 20 players.
Why do you think parents will be angry?
We have 24 on Varsity. We had 22 on our freshman team last year and I think the same this year. We also have a separate JV team. We have the unwritten rule (maybe all schools have it) that seniors can't be cut if they were on the team junior year. It makes for a large varsity team.
Stats4Gnats posted:Over the last 14 seasons, I’ve seen as many as 26 and at least 5 other times more than 20 were carried. But there are a lot of reasons for carrying that many players, and every season we play at least a few teams suiting up more than 20 players.
Why do you think parents will be angry?
I forgot to note, no seniors at this school yet. Juniors are as high as they go. Last year the team had 17 and there was not a lot of playing time I heard. I can’t imagine 22 now. My sons team has 17 and my older son never played on a varsity team with more than 18
Our High school had 22 as well. Help your son to become good enough to be an every day player they can count on so 22 or 2200 won't matter to him.
"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles. Policy of not cutting seniors just because they were in the program as juniors is about as stupid as the rule about having to swing a 32" bat no matter how big you are (mentioned in another thread). Most team dissention is caused by malcontent seniors who aren't happy about lack of playing time. I have seen this play out for 4 straight years and it destroys team chemistry and leads to an underperforming team. My opinion is that no player should be entitled to be on any roster in any sport if they aren't good enough to contribute to the team. You can trace all of this back to the culture of this generation of kids (which was created by a bunch of misguided parents) that everyone is a winner & we don't keep score & we all get a juice box and a participation trophy. That's how these kids were introduced to sports when they were 6 years old and that's how they think when they are 17. It is a rude awakening for all of them when they eventually find out that the world doesn't work that way.
SultanofSwat posted:"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
Ah yes, the give them all trophies group. I guess I do it a little different. If you are one of the best players you make the team. If not, you get cut or sent to JV and use it to work harder.
If I coached a HSV team with 22 players, I would publicly harden my heart and do what was necessary, but privately I would be sick at heart about the number of fine young men on the bench.
adbono posted:Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles. Policy of not cutting seniors just because they were in the program as juniors is about as stupid as the rule about having to swing a 32" bat no matter how big you are (mentioned in another thread). Most team dissention is caused by malcontent seniors who aren't happy about lack of playing time. I have seen this play out for 4 straight years and it destroys team chemistry and leads to an underperforming team. My opinion is that no player should be entitled to be on any roster in any sport if they aren't good enough to contribute to the team. You can trace all of this back to the culture of this generation of kids (which was created by a bunch of misguided parents) that everyone is a winner & we don't keep score & we all get a juice box and a participation trophy. That's how these kids were introduced to sports when they were 6 years old and that's how they think when they are 17. It is a rude awakening for all of them when they eventually find out that the world doesn't work that way.
Seniors at son's school are not usually cut, unless coach sees that they will be malcontent. One senior got booted this year, apparently for that reason. Don't know the full story, neither does anyone else except the coach and the kid. He had a good chance at a starting spot. Seniors that are kept on the team are told their chances of playing. Or that they won't. Some stay, some move on. This guy has been a varsity coach for 32 years. Friendly guy, but he will never talk about a player/team/strategy to any parents. The lines are very clear. Kids are told they will be held accountable for their parents actions if it is detrimental to the team. And angry parents are detrimental to the team. Best be angry on the inside if it's your nature to be angry about youth sports.
Kinda like some silly western movie I saw as a kid. New town, new sheriff in town run amuck. Jail not completed yet, it has no bars. New sheriff draws lines where the jail cell is. Pours red paint that looks like blood on the floor just outside the lines. Bad guy stays in the area marked for the jail cell. Most parents stay in the cell in this program.
In the fall "Baseball class", each kid is given a piece of paper. It says "Varsity", "JV/Sophomore", "Varsity/Cut", or "Cut", etc. He then will put a few notes "Compete for innings on mound, develop bat" or the like. Then he meets with each kid individually and explains it to them.
At signing day last year, there was a catcher that signed with a pretty good JUCO. In four years he never made the team. Pretty sure that story is some of the blood just outside the jail cell.
He may be my favorite coach of all time.
SultanofSwat posted:"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
The players I have seen in this situation were neither "committed to the team" or "committed to the game". They thought they were entitled to something. Therein lies the problem.
There are currently 20 players on our HS varsity roster. 12 of them are seniors. Only 4 of the 12 seniors are good players and 3 will advance to play in college. Only 6 are good enough to be on a varsity roster. The other 6 that aren't good enough to be there don't even play travel ball in the summer. We have a number of young underclassmen that show a lot of promise. If I were coaching our HS team I would cut all 6 of the seniors who have proven they cant play on Monday - and I would be fired on Tuesday. That's the climate we live in.
Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
ADBONO wrote:
“Most team dissention is caused by malcontent seniors who aren't happy about lack of playing time. I have seen this play out for 4 straight years and it destroys team chemistry and leads to an underperforming team.”
Our high school head coach said this^ very thing happened two years ago and he vowed to never do it again. So, last year he had eight seniors out of the 18 varsity players.
As in the case with GO44’s son coach, he explains what every player’s role is and they have to decide if they are good with it.
This year we have 18 total and eight seniors again. Only the number #1 and #2 pitchers, one of the two catchers and our CF will be starters. So, four seniors won’t play a lot but again, their roles were clearly explained.
A few days after the teams (V, JV & freshmen) were chosen this year, he sent a note to parents saying that players could still be cut. “Word on the street” was that some seniors were not being leaders and they would be cut if they continued their current behavior.
Last year, the team made a deep run into the playoffs and we had a great group of players and parent which meant zero issues. This year, it remains to be seen but I think the message was received.
Buckeye 2015 posted:Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
"Kind of agree with others....if you're players # 17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut?"
Really ? Is it the players choice ? Since when do they get to choose ?? That's how you make it sound ! Did you ever consider that if a nonproductive senior was cut he might find something that he was better suited to do ? I guess in some cases if a kid is an asset to team chemistry its fine to tell them he can remain on the team if he accepts that he wont play. Problem is most kids wont accept that role. Most HS kids also resist a PO role - even if its clear. A bunch of seniors on a varsity roster that aren't good enough to get on the field (and don't have a role) is a recipe for disaster. I have seen it too many times - and not once have I seen it end well.
I’m going to address keeping seniors who don’t play that increase roster size. My son’s high school coach would allow seniors to dress for varsity senior year if they hung in there for four years. The writing (varsity playing time) was on the wall for these players junior year as part time JV players.
The coach told them they were invited to be varsity players senior year as long as they didn't gripe, their parents didn’t gripe, they cheered and chased foul balls.
A couple of kids didn’t take the uniform over chasing foul balls. One of the seniors was such a good kid he had the ability to be a team leader from the bench. The team went nuts when the kid finally got an at bat. He drove a triple off the fence a foot from being a homer.
RJM posted:I’m going to address keeping seniors who don’t play that increase roster size. My son’s high school coach would allow seniors to dress for varsity senior year if they hung in there for four years. The writing (varsity playing time) was on the wall for these players junior year as part time JV players.
The coach told them they were invited to be varsity players senior year as long as they didn't gripe, their parents didn’t gripe, they cheered and chased foul balls.
A couple of kids didn’t take the uniform over chasing foul balls. One of the seniors was such a good kid he had the ability to be a team leader from the bench. The team went nuts when the kid finally got an at bat. He drove a triple off the fence a foot from being a homer.
There is always a place for a kid like that. But IMO a kid that embraces his role on the bench (as a senior) is the exception and not the rule.
Suds posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
We had 25 last year - most of the teams around here do on varsity. We had 10-11 pitchers and needed them all. It's true that a few of the kids didn't play a lot, but this is the way it works in high school. The basketball team has 15 players and about 9 of them play every game.
Midwest Mom posted:Suds posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
We had 25 last year - most of the teams around here do on varsity. We had 10-11 pitchers and needed them all. It's true that a few of the kids didn't play a lot, but this is the way it works in high school. The basketball team has 15 players and about 9 of them play every game.
Agreed. I checked our's and it has been between 22 and 28 for the last five years. That's pretty normal around here.
Our program has 25 players across V and JV. There is no freshman team. 4 seniors, 7 juniors, 7 sophomores, 7 freshman. I know 3 of the 4 seniors will play key roles and the fourth may too? I’ll find out as the season plays out.
My son is one of the freshman so I don’t know the makeup and roles of all the upper classmen yet.
So, I don’t think this will be much of an issue this year. I did hear that a sophomore recently decided to quit but I don’t know the reasons why.
2019Dad posted:Midwest Mom posted:Suds posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
We had 25 last year - most of the teams around here do on varsity. We had 10-11 pitchers and needed them all. It's true that a few of the kids didn't play a lot, but this is the way it works in high school. The basketball team has 15 players and about 9 of them play every game.
Agreed. I checked our's and it has been between 22 and 28 for the last five years. That's pretty normal around here.
in order for that to work you need very defined roles. As in 2 deep at every position and 10 POs. Otherwise its a cluster****. Good programs seem to be able to implement that kind of structure. Others don't. There are way more others than good.
adbono posted:Buckeye 2015 posted:Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
"Kind of agree with others....if you're players # 17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut?"
Really ? Is it the players choice ? Since when do they get to choose ?? That's how you make it sound ! Did you ever consider that if a nonproductive senior was cut he might find something that he was better suited to do ? I guess in some cases if a kid is an asset to team chemistry its fine to tell them he can remain on the team if he accepts that he wont play. Problem is most kids wont accept that role. Most HS kids also resist a PO role - even if its clear. A bunch of seniors on a varsity roster that aren't good enough to get on the field (and don't have a role) is a recipe for disaster. I have seen it too many times - and not once have I seen it end well.
We had a few seniors that didn't play much (but they all played at least a few games), but they wanted to be a part of the the team, they actually helped the younger kids and cheered them on and had a great time. It's all about perspective and how the coach handles it. Not all of these boys want to play at the next level. Some of them just enjoy working out and being part of a team at the end of their HS career when they've been playing since they were young.
Maybe this place is strange or the HCs I’ve scored for were just weird. Every time there’s been really large rosters, the HC has given marginal players the choice of being on the team and being allowed to practice with the team and be “covered” by the school insurance, or being on their own. Being on your own around here means little or no organized ball from Feb thru June because there aren’t many players.
Players almost always choose to be part of the team, even knowing they’ll get little or no field time. I can’t say how “all” parents feel, but the ones I’ve talked with about it are great with it because the alternative isn’t a good one.
Like all things, every situation is different so blanket statements just don’t cover everything.
adbono posted:Buckeye 2015 posted:Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
"Kind of agree with others....if you're players # 17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut?"
Really ? Is it the players choice ? Since when do they get to choose ?? That's how you make it sound ! Did you ever consider that if a nonproductive senior was cut he might find something that he was better suited to do ? I guess in some cases if a kid is an asset to team chemistry its fine to tell them he can remain on the team if he accepts that he wont play. Problem is most kids wont accept that role. Most HS kids also resist a PO role - even if its clear. A bunch of seniors on a varsity roster that aren't good enough to get on the field (and don't have a role) is a recipe for disaster. I have seen it too many times - and not once have I seen it end well.
It is the player's choice as long as the coach makes it know that that's the case. As others have said, a lot of it depends on the school. My son's school doesn't normally have more than 30 kids total...unless we get a big freshman class like they had last year. If a kid has stuck around thru his junior year because of low numbers, I don't see many coaches booting them as seniors because they happened to get a big freshman class and bring the numbers up. At a school our size....a kid going into his senior year knows exactly where he fits in the program. If the coach says "you can have a uniform"...that's all it means. The kids know that any PT will only be in mop up situations
Stats4Gnats posted:Maybe this place is strange or the HCs I’ve scored for were just weird. Every time there’s been really large rosters, the HC has given marginal players the choice of being on the team and being allowed to practice with the team and be “covered” by the school insurance, or being on their own. Being on your own around here means little or no organized ball from Feb thru June because there aren’t many players.
Players almost always choose to be part of the team, even knowing they’ll get little or no field time. I can’t say how “all” parents feel, but the ones I’ve talked with about it are great with it because the alternative isn’t a good one.
Like all things, every situation is different so blanket statements just don’t cover everything.
I think there are a lot of regional differences on this subject - and many others too.
For those who feel like "seniors should be cut if they aren't gonna play" need to think about what is the point of high school athletics? People get upset about a perceived lack of loyalty in this world, but here it's almost being promoted.
Bulldog 19 posted:For those who feel like "seniors should be cut if they aren't gonna play" need to think about what is the point of high school athletics? People get upset about a perceived lack of loyalty in this world, but here it's almost being promoted.
My opinion is that seniors should be cut if they aren't capable of making a contribution to the team. There are ways to contribute other than playing - and I'm fine with all of those. I have just seen too many seniors that go south. Neither I or anyone else in this thread has said that seniors should be cut if they aren't gonna play. And loyalty has nothing to do with it.
In the 4-years my kid was on our 9A (Highest classification FHSAA - 2,774 TOTAL ENROLLMENT) Varsity squad, we had: 18, 20, 21 and 18 players...
So, yes...
Carried 27 my senior year. Went 5 rounds deep in playoffs and played over 40 games. We had a deep roster when it came to pitchers. No one complained when we were winning. Everyone knew their role and accepted it. There were maybe 2 or 3 seniors that didn’t play much, if ever, but they still talk about that team and the memories to this day.
We'll probably have 20 or more on our roster this year, both varsity and JV, and no POs. Our problem is our juniors, who are quitting because our starting line up is almost all seniors, with maybe two starting positions up for grabs. Went to the doctor the other day — 10 minutes to get medication for a sinus infection, 45 minutes explaining to the PA who saw me what positions her son should work on if he wants to make varsity this year.
23 on our Varsity, 15 seniors and 8 Juniors. Very competitive HS baseball team. Mine has an MRI in next two weeks on pitching arm and is shut down right now. Only a Junior, but a very important year for recruiting. I'm just happy the coach is letting him stick around until we find out the results of the MRI. Praying it's nothing major. We usually carry 20 plus and I think most of the kids know their role.
TXdad2019 posted:23 on our Varsity, 15 seniors and 8 Juniors. Very competitive HS baseball team. Mine has an MRI in next two weeks on pitching arm and is shut down right now. Only a Junior, but a very important year for recruiting. I'm just happy the coach is letting him stick around until we find out the results of the MRI. Praying it's nothing major. We usually carry 20 plus and I think most of the kids know their role.
Best wishes on receiving a good report from the doctor.
Daily inter squad games, keep record of every AB, hits, runs, errors and RBI, coaches pitch. The best players each week start the games. This is motivation to improve.
Bob
I don’t think 22 is too many at all. In Georgia, you play 2-3 games every week. I realize a lot of guys are 2 way players in high school, but the biggest problem is the typical HS gets through the season with mainly 2 starters and 1 or 2 other guys that get the bulk of the innings. When playoffs roll around, that doesn’t work. I would try to have at least 6 guys sharing the load to prepare for the post season. If you have ANY ambition to play beyond HS, you better get used to it. D1 carries 35 guys. Son’s team had 21 pitchers last year. No more than 10-12 had any significant innings. That’s a LOT of pitchers that sat and watched all season.
Normal in competitive regions in metro Atlanta. Just wait till college......
DrUGA Dawg posted:Normal in competitive regions in metro Atlanta. Just wait till college......
I am surprised how common it is around the country now. Both my sons have been on teams with less than 18 on varsity. Sure during the season some kids get called up from JV, but never started with more than 18.
I learn something new all the time
Cant compare college rosters to HS. 60 9-inning games vs 30 7-inning games. Traveling thousands of miles vs in our case here a couple hundred over the course of the season.
SultanofSwat posted:"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
Cut them and you deal with angry parent one or two days
Keep them and you deal with angry parent the whole season
This is obviously worst case scenario. If you keep a kid who is a program guy but won't see a lot of playing time then you better explain that to him. I tell kids they don't have the talent to play much but because of work ethic, attitude, etc... we would like for them to stay but they won't play much and will be expected to show up and work hard. I give them that decision to make if they stay or not but if they stay they will not complain
In the Midwest we are playing 3-5 games per week from late March through mid May in 30s, 40s and 50s weather and A LOT of rain. We need 25 kids, especially the pitchers. Kids get sick and injured and pitchers can’t be overused. In warmer weather climates from what I understand there are a couple of games each week. You may not necessarily need as many players.
This issue comes up from time to time. In my opinion, 22 kids for the roster is probably not a big deal if those who are unlikely to get much playing time are content with their diminished role. And many of those will likely be seniors who stuck with the program for 4 years (and yes, they should be allowed to stay on the team).
In a really competitive baseball district, 22 might be necessary, with many POs (including inning burners when up or down big), etc.
We have too many seniors this year, but I've only cut 2 so far. They have till scrimmages end for the "final" cut. I likely won't cut anymore, though simply by talent I probably should.
To me the key to pulling it off is two-fold: solid communication of what their role will be and the ability to cut them mid-season if grumbling begins.
I plan on telling 3 kids that they will likely never cross the lines. They'll get a jersey during the season, but will likely give it up for the playoffs (they'll wear a BP top) so I can give it to a callup kid who might play. They are expected to be at every practice and workout and find a way to make a positive contribution on a regular basis. If they can't handle all of that they need to turn in their stuff.
These are good kids who have been with us for 4-years, they're good friends with the team and want to see their friends succeed, so I think we can pull it off.
I've been down the grumpy senior road in the past, and it can kill a team, but I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I am now.
If negativity begins to creep in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus.
Batty67 posted:And many of those will likely be seniors who stuck with the program for 4 years (and yes, they should be allowed to stay on the team).
Do you let them letter? Here, even if you don't play, if you stick with the team for four years, you letter.
We have that many on Fresh JV and Varsity teams at least, most years. Some years we have to add a fourth team (Jr-Soph team) to account for good sophs who were not going to get playing time on Varsity but who needed to play against better competition to improve. We have many kids who are POs and others who are specialty players. We play a lot of games and we need pitchers to eat up innings so that our top tier pitchers dont get worn out before playoffs.
The kids know this coming in as Freshman and they know they must compete each week for playing time. Practices are intense and competitive and many times harder than some of the games. By the time playoffs are here we have fresh pitchers and our boys are ready for playoff level baseball.
It is true that some boys will only get minimal ABs and PT but many stay around for the comradery.The team chemistry is very good despite the competition for playing time at every position.
IRONHORSE wrote, "If negativity creeps in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus."
IMO this is how to handle the concerns expressed in the OP. Agree 100%
VS roster is 28 and has been since the beginning. It helps with fundraising. LOL
The talent depth has a lot to do with it. If you split our roster in half I wouldn't be surprised if the the second half won over half of their games.
Senior starter strikes out.
Senior benchwarmer #1 mutters, "I could've done that."
Senior benchwarmer #2 mutters, "Me too."
Ass't coach yells, "Somebody on that foul ball!"
Senior benchwarmer #1 replies, "I'm on it coach!"
i Just think keeping seniors on a team “because they have been with us 4 years” is sending the wrong message. Son’s HS has a senior class with 13 players, three of two of whom were never varsity guys - ever. Should they get a roster spot just to keep them happy, or their parents, or to help with fundraisIng? That is a big point here because many programs have these kids make donations or solicit donations to help fund the programs prior to cuts. Now that Johnny’s Family has “carried the water” financially it seems he gets a jersey as a participation award. That doesn’t sound like competitive baseball to me, it sounds like if you fundraise and hang on long enough you get a jersey. That is Rec league crap.
I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
And in my mind I'm not simply giving a kid a spot. In our program we emphasize character, being a good student/citizen, and being a good player. If a kid can do the first two of those (which isn't as easy as it may seems sometimes), then I'm ok with letting him be on the team and enjoy the experience, assuming he is a positive force. He's earned by 3 years of hard work and buy in.
Playing time will never be given based on just being on the team, but a good kid who's invested can still contribute in a ton of ways.
Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions.
freddy77 posted:Senior starter strikes out.
Senior benchwarmer #1 mutters, "I could've done that."
Senior benchwarmer #2 mutters, "Me too."
Ass't coach yells, "Somebody on that foul ball!"
Senior benchwarmer #1 replies, "I'm on it coach!"
We had this last year. My son was a junior and never sat. Many seniors never played, and he knew they complained about it. But he didn't LISTEN to them, and it didn't IMPACT him.
Kids who know what they want and are busy going after it, don't have time to worry about what other people say or do.
ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
And in my mind I'm not simply giving a kid a spot. In our program we emphasize character, being a good student/citizen, and being a good player. If a kid can do the first two of those (which isn't as easy as it may seems sometimes), then I'm ok with letting him be on the team and enjoy the experience, assuming he is a positive force. He's earned by 3 years of hard work and buy in.
Playing time will never be given based on just being on the team, but a good kid who's invested can still contribute in a ton of ways.
Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions.
Ding, Ding, Ding !!!! Yes, this!
ironhorse posted:We have too many seniors this year, but I've only cut 2 so far. They have till scrimmages end for the "final" cut. I likely won't cut anymore, though simply by talent I probably should.
To me the key to pulling it off is two-fold: solid communication of what their role will be and the ability to cut them mid-season if grumbling begins.
I plan on telling 3 kids that they will likely never cross the lines. They'll get a jersey during the season, but will likely give it up for the playoffs (they'll wear a BP top) so I can give it to a callup kid who might play. They are expected to be at every practice and workout and find a way to make a positive contribution on a regular basis. If they can't handle all of that they need to turn in their stuff.
These are good kids who have been with us for 4-years, they're good friends with the team and want to see their friends succeed, so I think we can pull it off.
I've been down the grumpy senior road in the past, and it can kill a team, but I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I am now.
If negativity begins to creep in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus.
I've always had a hard time understanding how a HS kid at the bottom of the roster would never receive playing time. Aren't there usually a few blow out games either way where you could throw the kid a bone?
To me, if the kid works hard and has a positive attitude, they should be rewarded in these types of situations.
I agree and I've seen it way too many times. Kid works hard all season, parents do their part with all of the volunteer stuff, the team has a large lead and the kid sits on the bench. It's one of the main reasons I am not a fan of HS baseball around here.
Daily inter squad games use double DH, 6 outs per inning for the players to receive many AB's. If you are inside with batting tunnels have team pitchers [use pitching screen]; throw to a catcher and hitter. Grade the batted ball as out, hit, hit hard, pop up. When not hitting, play pepper with tennis balls.
Bob
rynoattack posted:ironhorse posted:We have too many seniors this year, but I've only cut 2 so far. They have till scrimmages end for the "final" cut. I likely won't cut anymore, though simply by talent I probably should.
To me the key to pulling it off is two-fold: solid communication of what their role will be and the ability to cut them mid-season if grumbling begins.
I plan on telling 3 kids that they will likely never cross the lines. They'll get a jersey during the season, but will likely give it up for the playoffs (they'll wear a BP top) so I can give it to a callup kid who might play. They are expected to be at every practice and workout and find a way to make a positive contribution on a regular basis. If they can't handle all of that they need to turn in their stuff.
These are good kids who have been with us for 4-years, they're good friends with the team and want to see their friends succeed, so I think we can pull it off.
I've been down the grumpy senior road in the past, and it can kill a team, but I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I am now.
If negativity begins to creep in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus.
I've always had a hard time understanding how a HS kid at the bottom of the roster would never receive playing time. Aren't there usually a few blow out games either way where you could throw the kid a bone?
To me, if the kid works hard and has a positive attitude, they should be rewarded in these types of situations.
^That’s exactly what our HC did last season.
adbono posted:Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles.
IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
I think whether there will be anger depends on the coach. Most people are realistic. The kids definitely know who the players are and aren't. If the coach has a plan where the kids who play give the team the best chance to win, then most problems will be avoided. When the coach makes decisions where cause people to shake their heads is what causes problems. Like DH the senior who is like 0 for his entire 3 previous years. Or playing a kid in the infield because of his body style, not talent. Or not giving a kid the opportunity because he doesn't hit weak ground balls, but instead 25-30 deg. launch angle bombs which hit the "top of the net." When the losses pile up because of this type of BS, yes people get angry. Or overplaying your pitchers/outfielders so that by the end of they season they where out of gas - a day of rest after an outing never hurt anyone. Sum the season up in a first round playoff loss to a cross town team which you "should have beaten easily." oops.
Golfman makes a good point. HS rules (allowing starters to be pulled and return) do give an opportunity for role players. This year I believe we will have two fast kids -- the two fastest on the team in a 30 yard dash -- serve as pinch runners every game. They won't get many ABs (if any) but they will contribute to the team.
Golfman25 posted:adbono posted:Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles.
IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
Even rarer are parents of starters who understand and appreciate this kind of approach. Our guy does it and it makes me crazy. Last minute subs, kids already in the box getting pulled for a pinch hitter. All this in competitive games. Fine line between artistic and impulsive behavior.
Just as Ironhorse said this about putting together rosters...
"Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions."
... much of the same applies to in-game substitutions and PT. We usually have a pretty strong schedule so not to many blowouts. When we do, sometimes there can be a fine line between having a four or five run lead with your #3 pitcher and all of a sudden run ruling a team and having the game called short. Often, at various points in the game, things could have gone either way. If you pull the plug on starters early and it backfires on you, that's about the worst move you can make. People see a final score that implies a comfortable win and wonder why more guys didn't get in. They don't necessarily know how the game unfolded and what could have happened along the way.
For many of us, those multiple sub opportunities don't come that often. When they do come up, one could certainly argue that the program is better off giving those opportunities to the young players that will be contributors in the future and need game experience than to a senior who you know won't be. Still, there is sentimental pull.
Just a few of the MANY layers...
adbono posted:Golfman25 posted:...IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
When's that kid gonna graduate already ? 
cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:Golfman25 posted:...IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
When's that kid gonna graduate already ?
He is a little slow. Probably gonna go into coaching.
adbono posted:cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:Golfman25 posted:...IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
When's that kid gonna graduate already ?
He is a little slow. Probably gonna go into coaching.
OK, that was good. I got nothin' Cuz, you know...
cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:Golfman25 posted:...IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
When's that kid gonna graduate already ?
He is a little slow. Probably gonna go into coaching.
OK, that was good. I got nothin' Cuz, you know...
cabbagedad posted:Just as Ironhorse said this about putting together rosters...
"Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions."
... much of the same applies to in-game substitutions and PT. We usually have a pretty strong schedule so not to many blowouts. When we do, sometimes there can be a fine line between having a four or five run lead with your #3 pitcher and all of a sudden run ruling a team and having the game called short. Often, at various points in the game, things could have gone either way. If you pull the plug on starters early and it backfires on you, that's about the worst move you can make. People see a final score that implies a comfortable win and wonder why more guys didn't get in. They don't necessarily know how the game unfolded and what could have happened along the way.
For many of us, those multiple sub opportunities don't come that often. When they do come up, one could certainly argue that the program is better off giving those opportunities to the young players that will be contributors in the future and need game experience than to a senior who you know won't be. Still, there is sentimental pull.
Just a few of the MANY layers...
Cabbage, do you have run rules? I thought you were CIF-SS? I know we don't have them (must play all 7 innings) . . . is it by league, rather than section?
ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
Consultant posted:Daily inter squad games use double DH, 6 outs per inning for the players to receive many AB's. If you are inside with batting tunnels have team pitchers [use pitching screen]; throw to a catcher and hitter. Grade the batted ball as out, hit, hit hard, pop up. When not hitting, play pepper with tennis balls.
Bob
Is that what you would want as a kid for your senior year HS baseball experience? “I played inter squad games.”
no thanks
Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
Nah, if the coach has communicated his roll to him and he has accepted it, it's his choice. Gets to workout and be part of something. It's the coach's and the kid's call, not someone in the bleachers.
updated for gramma n spellin.
Son was on a team last year with 6 guys who were in a similar situation. 2 played significant time due to injuries of others, one spoke no English and couldn’t complain to anyone anyway, and 3 were cancers because they thought they should be starters. Reality is it is a rare player who is happy being on the bench, have seen it personally. Keep the roster lean, make it meaningful for those who are there to compete. If the kid is a great kid, he will find other pursuits.
rynoattack posted:ironhorse posted:We have too many seniors this year, but I've only cut 2 so far. They have till scrimmages end for the "final" cut. I likely won't cut anymore, though simply by talent I probably should.
To me the key to pulling it off is two-fold: solid communication of what their role will be and the ability to cut them mid-season if grumbling begins.
I plan on telling 3 kids that they will likely never cross the lines. They'll get a jersey during the season, but will likely give it up for the playoffs (they'll wear a BP top) so I can give it to a callup kid who might play. They are expected to be at every practice and workout and find a way to make a positive contribution on a regular basis. If they can't handle all of that they need to turn in their stuff.
These are good kids who have been with us for 4-years, they're good friends with the team and want to see their friends succeed, so I think we can pull it off.
I've been down the grumpy senior road in the past, and it can kill a team, but I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I am now.
If negativity begins to creep in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus.
I've always had a hard time understanding how a HS kid at the bottom of the roster would never receive playing time. Aren't there usually a few blow out games either way where you could throw the kid a bone?
To me, if the kid works hard and has a positive attitude, they should be rewarded in these types of situations.
Completely agree with the sentiment. A couple of our Seniors are PO kids who can't throw strikes, and flat can't hit. So even in a blowout it's tough. Kid threw 25 pitches tonight and 23 balls. Was progressing in the fall but regressing now. So what do you do? He's a good kid so I lean to keeping him around, but to each his own.
Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.
I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.
Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.
Last year our team had a few seniors that had played JV as juniors and saw plenty of playing time, and had the choice to wear a varsity uniform and hardly ever play or stick with JV. They chose varsity. And I know at least one kids parents still came to almost every game. Mom brought her knitting. Not what I’d want for my kid if the situation was similar but I guess they had their reasons.
Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.
I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.
Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.
A. It's Kumbaya
B. It doesn't matter what you would prefer the coach to do. It's your kids baseball career.
C. Good communication = not "stringing kids along" I said this a million times now.
Not trying to be a savior, simply communicating honestly with kids and giving them an opportunity to choose their path. Not basing it on what their dad would prefer.
I'm sorry you've had enough of my honesty and good communication. I'll stop that.
If it was just about the innings played it would only be worth it to 10 or 12 guys right? Would it even be worth it if your team was not very good? If this whole thing is about how much you play why would you have more than 11 or 12 players ever?
Why do coaches invest in players that will never contribute on the field in games or play meaningful innings? Why do coaches spend hours upon hours working with kids that will more than likely never contribute? Why not just work with the one's that you see potential in?
Why would anyone ever want their kid to be on a team when they were not going to be a starter and or get playing time? What a waste of time.
Could it be that the baseball is only a fraction of what is important? Could it be the baseball is used to teach things much more important than a game? Could it be that the baseball gets them together but something else keeps them together, for life? Could it be the baseball is important now but pales in comparison to what is learned through the game? Will anyone care what your batting average was or wasn't 20 years from now? Will it matter if you learned how to be on time, what true commitment is, the value of team work, discipline, sacrifice?
You want to know what my former players talk about when they get together? They rarely talk about the games won, the big hit, the great play, who were the studs. They talk about that time Jimmy ate 4 Whopper's after a game. They talk about the time they had to run for playing around at the cage and how they almost passed out. They talk about the bus rides, the talk about the investment it took to be on the team, they talk about the pride in being a part of something bigger than them. No one cares what your batting average was. No one cares how many innings you played. Do you value one child over the other because one has more talent? Do you value one sibling over the other because one had more talent?
Why do I keep players that will rarely contribute or never contribute? Why do I want to keep more kids than I actually need to round out a team? Because I want as many kids as possible to experience the experience. I want as many kids as possible to get things much more important than baseball. It doesn't hurt my feelings that kids won't get to start or experience being good players. It hurts my feelings to know they won't be part of something they can carry with them long after the baseball has ended.
The most important thing about playing on a team is not what goes on during the 2 or 3 hours of a game. The most important thing about playing on a team is being on a team. The most important things your son will learn from playing on a team will never show up in a box score. If it was just about who could play and who couldn't play it wouldn't be worth what I invest. It's much more important and valuable than that.
Honest open communication. Teaching young men it's bigger than you. It's not about me its about we. If you have to be a starter or a major contributor to realize the value to being a member of a team then you have no team. You have a group of individuals calling themselves a team. If every member of the team understands their role and works to bring value and expand that role for the good of the whole you have a team.
As a parent what do I value the most from my son's athletic experience? Is it the accomplishments on the field? Is it the awards and trophies? Is it the notoriety they gained? Or is it those things that helped them become the men they are today? The things that they learned through the game, the struggles, tough times, life lessons, perseverance, team work, dedication, determination, work ethic, grinditthefout never give up trust in yourself toughness, respect for those guys that lay it on the line just like you, fight for it, life isn't fair but that's ok, keep on grinding, pick him up, pick yourself up, treat others the way you would want to be treated, humility, sacrifice, it's bigger than you, be that guy, don't be that guy, if it was easy everyone would do it, your feelings are not fact's deal with the truth, excuses never solved a problem, on and on it goes. All of that can be learned and much more even if you never get off the bench in a game.
Sometimes the greatest experience you can give someone is viewed by others as a total failure. Tell them to stop reading the box scores and just watch my life.
Yeah. What the said.
Not to change the subject, which Coach May nailed with his typically wonderful insights, but when I read his last sentence the first time, I thought he wrote “stop reading the box scores and just watch my WIFE.”
ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.
I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.
Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.
A. It's Kumbaya
B. It doesn't matter what you would prefer the coach to do. It's your kids baseball career.
C. Good communication = not "stringing kids along" I said this a million times now.
Not trying to be a savior, simply communicating honestly with kids and giving them an opportunity to choose their path. Not basing it on what their dad would prefer.
I'm sorry you've had enough of my honesty and good communication. I'll stop that.
If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.
Chicago643 posted:If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.
You literally guessed wrong on every aspect of my life above. That's fun.
And I asked the question because I know I don't have all the answers. I've never sat on the other side as a parent and was interested in trying to learn more about that perspective. I've been doing this a while now, but I don't want to stop learning how to do things better. I think I improved our parent meeting this year, so I'm proud of that.
And they may not be paying me to "develop well rounded people" in your eyes, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. I'm pretty proud of the way we develop quality citizens, but a guy like you will never get that, so why waste my time?
ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.
You literally guessed wrong on every aspect of my life above. That's fun.
And I asked the question because I know I don't have all the answers. I've never sat on the other side as a parent and was interested in trying to learn more about that perspective. I've been doing this a while now, but I don't want to stop learning how to do things better. I think I improved our parent meeting this year, so I'm proud of that.
And they may not be paying me to "develop well rounded people" in your eyes, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. I'm pretty proud of the way we develop quality citizens, but a guy like you will never get that, so why waste my time?
Your inability to accept the opposing viewpoint without being defensive and condescending show a level of narcissism that is pretty unattractive. You aren’t willing to hear a contrarian viewpoint, you just want to live in an echo chamber of your own thoughts.
I don't want to hear a contrarian viewpoint says the guy who questioned why I was asking for the input of other people.
And I hate that you find me unattractive. I thought we may have something.
cabbagedad posted:Just as Ironhorse said this about putting together rosters...
"Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions."
... much of the same applies to in-game substitutions and PT. We usually have a pretty strong schedule so not to many blowouts. When we do, sometimes there can be a fine line between having a four or five run lead with your #3 pitcher and all of a sudden run ruling a team and having the game called short. Often, at various points in the game, things could have gone either way. If you pull the plug on starters early and it backfires on you, that's about the worst move you can make. People see a final score that implies a comfortable win and wonder why more guys didn't get in. They don't necessarily know how the game unfolded and what could have happened along the way.
For many of us, those multiple sub opportunities don't come that often. When they do come up, one could certainly argue that the program is better off giving those opportunities to the young players that will be contributors in the future and need game experience than to a senior who you know won't be. Still, there is sentimental pull.
Just a few of the MANY layers...
I see that point, but as a father of a kid that always got to play, I still believe there are opportunities to get those bottom of the roster kids some PT. HS is probably 30 games a year, so logic says there are some opportunities. (Blow Outs either way)
Coach_May posted:If it was just about the innings played it would only be worth it to 10 or 12 guys right? Would it even be worth it if your team was not very good? If this whole thing is about how much you play why would you have more than 11 or 12 players ever?
Why do coaches invest in players that will never contribute on the field in games or play meaningful innings? Why do coaches spend hours upon hours working with kids that will more than likely never contribute? Why not just work with the one's that you see potential in?
Why would anyone ever want their kid to be on a team when they were not going to be a starter and or get playing time? What a waste of time.
Could it be that the baseball is only a fraction of what is important? Could it be the baseball is used to teach things much more important than a game? Could it be that the baseball gets them together but something else keeps them together, for life? Could it be the baseball is important now but pales in comparison to what is learned through the game? Will anyone care what your batting average was or wasn't 20 years from now? Will it matter if you learned how to be on time, what true commitment is, the value of team work, discipline, sacrifice?
You want to know what my former players talk about when they get together? They rarely talk about the games won, the big hit, the great play, who were the studs. They talk about that time Jimmy ate 4 Whopper's after a game. They talk about the time they had to run for playing around at the cage and how they almost passed out. They talk about the bus rides, the talk about the investment it took to be on the team, they talk about the pride in being a part of something bigger than them. No one cares what your batting average was. No one cares how many innings you played. Do you value one child over the other because one has more talent? Do you value one sibling over the other because one had more talent?
Why do I keep players that will rarely contribute or never contribute? Why do I want to keep more kids than I actually need to round out a team? Because I want as many kids as possible to experience the experience. I want as many kids as possible to get things much more important than baseball. It doesn't hurt my feelings that kids won't get to start or experience being good players. It hurts my feelings to know they won't be part of something they can carry with them long after the baseball has ended.
The most important thing about playing on a team is not what goes on during the 2 or 3 hours of a game. The most important thing about playing on a team is being on a team. The most important things your son will learn from playing on a team will never show up in a box score. If it was just about who could play and who couldn't play it wouldn't be worth what I invest. It's much more important and valuable than that.
Honest open communication. Teaching young men it's bigger than you. It's not about me its about we. If you have to be a starter or a major contributor to realize the value to being a member of a team then you have no team. You have a group of individuals calling themselves a team. If every member of the team understands their role and works to bring value and expand that role for the good of the whole you have a team.
As a parent what do I value the most from my son's athletic experience? Is it the accomplishments on the field? Is it the awards and trophies? Is it the notoriety they gained? Or is it those things that helped them become the men they are today? The things that they learned through the game, the struggles, tough times, life lessons, perseverance, team work, dedication, determination, work ethic, grinditthefout never give up trust in yourself toughness, respect for those guys that lay it on the line just like you, fight for it, life isn't fair but that's ok, keep on grinding, pick him up, pick yourself up, treat others the way you would want to be treated, humility, sacrifice, it's bigger than you, be that guy, don't be that guy, if it was easy everyone would do it, your feelings are not fact's deal with the truth, excuses never solved a problem, on and on it goes. All of that can be learned and much more even if you never get off the bench in a game.
Sometimes the greatest experience you can give someone is viewed by others as a total failure. Tell them to stop reading the box scores and just watch my life.
I agree with all of the above, and that is why I believe it shouldn't matter if the bottom of the line-up gets a bone every now and then. Telling a kid that he will never see the field is wrong IMHO. If he's on the team, a part of the team, contributing a good attitude to the team, etc., he should be rewarded with an opportunity. Frankly, if everything you said above is true, and the importance is the team, then it should be ok for some to sacrifice a little PT for the less talented players.
ironhorse posted:I don't want to hear a contrarian viewpoint says the guy who questioned why I was asking for the input of other people.
And I hate that you find me unattractive. I thought we may have something.
"... you just want to live in an echo chamber of your own thoughts."
Is that anyway related to a glass case of emotion...? 
Truer than you know Bolts Coach
Coach_May posted:If it was just about the innings played it would only be worth it to 10 or 12 guys right? Would it even be worth it if your team was not very good? If this whole thing is about how much you play why would you have more than 11 or 12 players ever?
Why do coaches invest in players that will never contribute on the field in games or play meaningful innings? Why do coaches spend hours upon hours working with kids that will more than likely never contribute? Why not just work with the one's that you see potential in?
Why would anyone ever want their kid to be on a team when they were not going to be a starter and or get playing time? What a waste of time.
Could it be that the baseball is only a fraction of what is important? Could it be the baseball is used to teach things much more important than a game? Could it be that the baseball gets them together but something else keeps them together, for life? Could it be the baseball is important now but pales in comparison to what is learned through the game? Will anyone care what your batting average was or wasn't 20 years from now? Will it matter if you learned how to be on time, what true commitment is, the value of team work, discipline, sacrifice?
You want to know what my former players talk about when they get together? They rarely talk about the games won, the big hit, the great play, who were the studs. They talk about that time Jimmy ate 4 Whopper's after a game. They talk about the time they had to run for playing around at the cage and how they almost passed out. They talk about the bus rides, the talk about the investment it took to be on the team, they talk about the pride in being a part of something bigger than them. No one cares what your batting average was. No one cares how many innings you played. Do you value one child over the other because one has more talent? Do you value one sibling over the other because one had more talent?
Why do I keep players that will rarely contribute or never contribute? Why do I want to keep more kids than I actually need to round out a team? Because I want as many kids as possible to experience the experience. I want as many kids as possible to get things much more important than baseball. It doesn't hurt my feelings that kids won't get to start or experience being good players. It hurts my feelings to know they won't be part of something they can carry with them long after the baseball has ended.
The most important thing about playing on a team is not what goes on during the 2 or 3 hours of a game. The most important thing about playing on a team is being on a team. The most important things your son will learn from playing on a team will never show up in a box score. If it was just about who could play and who couldn't play it wouldn't be worth what I invest. It's much more important and valuable than that.
Honest open communication. Teaching young men it's bigger than you. It's not about me its about we. If you have to be a starter or a major contributor to realize the value to being a member of a team then you have no team. You have a group of individuals calling themselves a team. If every member of the team understands their role and works to bring value and expand that role for the good of the whole you have a team.
As a parent what do I value the most from my son's athletic experience? Is it the accomplishments on the field? Is it the awards and trophies? Is it the notoriety they gained? Or is it those things that helped them become the men they are today? The things that they learned through the game, the struggles, tough times, life lessons, perseverance, team work, dedication, determination, work ethic, grinditthefout never give up trust in yourself toughness, respect for those guys that lay it on the line just like you, fight for it, life isn't fair but that's ok, keep on grinding, pick him up, pick yourself up, treat others the way you would want to be treated, humility, sacrifice, it's bigger than you, be that guy, don't be that guy, if it was easy everyone would do it, your feelings are not fact's deal with the truth, excuses never solved a problem, on and on it goes. All of that can be learned and much more even if you never get off the bench in a game.
Sometimes the greatest experience you can give someone is viewed by others as a total failure. Tell them to stop reading the box scores and just watch my life.
Great post Coach May; 100% agree.
I was never a great baseball player (really a football player doing a mediocre catcher impression), but I played for a couple of legendary coaches who were truly leaders of men. I would not trade the life lessons I picked up from them (and the game) for anything. This was particularly valuable given I lost my dad at a very young age.
My experience, as well as all of the things you mention about hard work, accountability and camaraderie are why I have pushed my boys to play in HS. Any accolades or play beyond HS is gravy.
I think there are valid arguments on both sides of the coin. So unless you are the coach, what does it matter to you? I never understand why bystanders can get so upset about these type of scenarios.
Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.
I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.
Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.
It depends on the program. Winning programs will attract more kids to be part of something. Loosing programs, well the work just isn't worth it.
I do not think it can come down to strictly numbers. It comes down to the coach, the program and the players involved. Some programs and coaches can handle Large numbers. They communicate well and everyone knows there role. Now can a players role change? I believe yes. We had a young man in my sons class. He got little playing time during Freshman, Sophomore or Junior year. The coach had talked to the player after his junior year and explained what he could expect his senior year if he did not meet certain goals. The young man came back his senior year. He did not meet all those goals, but he met most of them and was much improved. During cuts, he explained that he would be a PO, and get an inning or two depending on how things were going and how the rest of the bull pen preformed. One of those innings came early in the year, and he came out to pitch and had changed his delivery and was pitching side arm. Did he have a lot of velocity no, He was around the strike zone but not always in it. But he was very tough to hit. While the rest of the bull pen struggled he was relied on more an more. He turned out to be one of our better pitchers out of the Bull pen that year, and racked up quite a few innings. Was this a great team, no. It was a very young team with few seniors. But the coach did not dismiss him because the talent was not there, he never gave up on the kid, and he preformed very well. I talk to his parents often, we are still friends. His parents still talk about how much that season meant to their son and to them.
Did other seniors get this opportunity? No, Some of them came improved but not enough, and one that actually had some talent, was still cut, because his attitude and the example he set for younger members of the team.
Each young man needs to be taken on a case to case basis. You cannot and should not treat each one exactly the same. You need to asses and judge what is best for the young man, the other young men on the team and take appropriate action. Just because you keep one senior does not mean you need to keep them all. One of these seniors had lots to offer off the field and in the dug out, and practice. The other did not.
Chicago643 posted:
If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.
Actually, if he is a high school teacher/coach that is exactly what they are paying him for.
ironhorse posted:I don't want to hear a contrarian viewpoint says the guy who questioned why I was asking for the input of other people.
And I hate that you find me unattractive. I thought we may have something.
Thank you there buddy for a big bite of my lunch ending up on my lap. Hahahaha. I appreciate it.
If/when my kid is cut next week I promise I will not come on here and complain.
My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine. There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit. The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start. I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone. I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy. I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech. All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down. I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash. I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year. I decided to make this year school first. We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year. The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs. If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.
I think we have 27 on varsity . 18 seniors which is the old coaches fault. No guarantees of playing time though
11 sr's 10 jr's 16 soph's 15 freshman..... two jv teams and varsity.... gotta fund raise..... all about the money
V = 22 (6 PO's), JV = 20 (3 PO's), no 9th grade team. We have 13 seniors graduating. The big roster in my opinion is for:
1. We play 3 games a week, we need to have enough pitching and enough to account for the flu/bad grades/in school trouble and is benched/and general injury.
2. With 13 kids graduating do you really do a total rebuild next year or do you have an extra 9 players that can learn the ropes of Varsity while only playing in blow outs?
3. 12th grade mentors 10th grade, 11th grade mentors 9th grade....this is how you build a TEAM.
hsbaseball101 posted:My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine. There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit. The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start. I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone. I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy. I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech. All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down. I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash. I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year. I decided to make this year school first. We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year. The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs. If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.
Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.
Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.
Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team? You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....
It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.
PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.
Back when my son played Varsity, the roster was never more than 15 total with three pitchers of which one was a PO. Fortunately they were limited to a 20 game regular season (VHSL rules) and at most played three games per week - most of the time it was two games per week.
The JV roster was about the same size. No ninth grade team (unheard of around here).