Was this handled the right way?

Kids are kids; kids have bad days. A good coach can distinguish cancers on teams from bad days.

I agree goosegg, however the precedent he is setting is that every player now apparently can tell a coach to "F-off" three times (apparently - if the kids really get 3 strikes). That sets a pretty ugly precedent that will spread and perpetuate throughout the program. Plus it shows the kids who tow the line that their coach is a push over.

There's bad days and there are bad people.  A good coach knows the difference.  By allowing this kid to stay the HC is saying F you to the AC.  If I'm the AC I'm having a discussion with HC and he better have a GREAT reason why that went down the way it did or I'm walking.

We are going to win or lose no matter who we put on that field.  If I'm going to spend all that time with a group of people I want them to be people I like being around.

Sure doesn't seem like it was handled in the best manner - you'd think at a minimum the player would be suspended and required to apologize to the AC personally and to the team.  What is missing is the content of the conversation between the HC and the player.  It may be that the player is having personal issues at home or the like, and he lashed out?  Doesn't make it right, but things can be hard on young adults and they don't have the maturity to handle.  If it was just the kid being a jerk though - that is a bad precedent!  Hope this is a one time thing that does not adversely affect your team.

Agreed. Still need to know more. Seems like he should be gone immediately based on your story, but there's more details I'm sure.

IMO, there are bad days and then there is outright rebellion. What he did, in my opinion, was outright rebellion and it started with purposely not bunting, not once but twice. Then it progressed to outright disrespect afterwards. 

I’m 99% sure that kid would be gone. I mean who blows off a bunt sign in practice?

“____________” <——————-insert Allen Iverson rant here. :-/

In all the 4-year schools I know, that sort of behavior will lead to one...and only one... place: as far down the bench as that kid can imagine.  ...and the second "strike" will have him cleaning out his locker.

One can only hope he learned something from the talk with his coach. Otherwise, he's in for a very rude awakening down the road.

Agree, on the surface, the response/punishment definitely doesn't seem nearly adequate...  on the surface.  What is below the surface?  We don't know.  Did it come up in the 30 minute meeting?  Don't know.

Very recently, I dealt with a player issue.  This player is a great kid, a bit of a class clown, gives it all between the lines, very good player but lots of other interests and no baseball aspirations beyond HS, unlike several of his teammates.  He pushes the envelope a bit with showing commitment in attending optional winter conditioning and will be a most likely candidate to call in a bit late or have a doc's appointment.  But he communicates and stays within the required guidelines.

About a month ago, he called in that he would miss a practice and called late the next.  Very uncharacteristically and against our team policy, he was vague about his reason.  I pulled him out for a "discussion".  I contemplated going full ream or opening it up for him to explain why his commitment level wasn't where his teammates needed it to be.   Thank God I chose the latter.  He went on to explain that an immediate family member was dealing with a serious illness.  I got a call later from one of his parents asking that I keep things confidential to make it easier for the family to get through a very tough time.  So, it has become a very difficult line to walk.  My actions with the player, I'm sure, didn't look strong enough to the team and even to the other coaches.  But I can't explain the rationale behind those actions due to the requested confidentiality of the family.  It's what's below the surface, in this case.  

I'm not at all saying this is the same as an FU to the coach.  Maybe the coach just caved to a good player and was too weak in that moment.  But there might be more there.  

As a teacher/coach myself and not knowing what the talk was like behind closed doors, I have a really hard time with how this was handled. I understand that teenagers are still developing physically and emotionally but do we think for one minute that this kid would have received the same consequence if he had been at work and yelled "FU" to his asst. store manager (in front of everyone at a staff meeting)? 

One of my goals as a dad/teacher/coach is to prepare youth for life after high school. Obviously, we want young people to understand the importance of accountability and consequences (good and bad). If player is currently having a difficult time at school, home, etc., then I would most definitely work to counsel and help in any way possible but would still hand out a stiffer penalty then "strike 1."

As someone already noted, this coach has set a precedent that he must now follow with ALL players or he is going to run into some serious team management problems down the road.

Chicago643 posted:

Player was at HS Varsity practice yesterday. Another 2-way player (more of a pitcher than a position player, likely #2 or 3 in pitching rotation, committed to a 4-yr school) was hitting in an intra-squad scrimmage. Asst Coach gave the bunt sign, kid swung and missed (no bunt attempt). Coach yells down to the player that he missed the sign, he was supposed to bunt. Player gets sign again - bunt. Player swings and misses. Coach says "Dude, why are you not bunting?" and player responds with "F-you." This is within earshot of all the team, all heard it, including Asst Coach. Asst Coach tells player to gather his stuff and leave. Player proceeds to do that and HC pulls him into office and talks to him for 30 minutes before sending him home. End of practice, HC addresses team and says "Johnny was wrong, but that was strike 1 for him. He will be back tomorrow."

 

BTW - this is HC's first year at a very storied program with enormous success. Wheels seem to be falling off.

My son came home saying WTF?

Your "open gyms" sound way more advanced than ours. Which explains a lot about our HS program.

Maybe the kid had a bad day and wants to apologize directly to the AC as well as the team today - HC doesn't want to steal his thunder so to speak.

Perhaps we can all meet back in about 2 weeks and get an update.  Way too early to draw any definitive conclusions about the kid's attitude or the HC's remarks same day.  

If the kid comes back laughing and all smiles, then that would also be quite telling.

sounds entitled,   been also been watching too much Domingo

cabbagedad posted:

Agree, on the surface, the response/punishment definitely doesn't seem nearly adequate...  on the surface.  What is below the surface?  We don't know.  Did it come up in the 30 minute meeting?  Don't know.

Very recently, I dealt with a player issue.  This player is a great kid, a bit of a class clown, gives it all between the lines, very good player but lots of other interests and no baseball aspirations beyond HS, unlike several of his teammates.  He pushes the envelope a bit with showing commitment in attending optional winter conditioning and will be a most likely candidate to call in a bit late or have a doc's appointment.  But he communicates and stays within the required guidelines.

About a month ago, he called in that he would miss a practice and called late the next.  Very uncharacteristically and against our team policy, he was vague about his reason.  I pulled him out for a "discussion".  I contemplated going full ream or opening it up for him to explain why his commitment level wasn't where his teammates needed it to be.   Thank God I chose the latter.  He went on to explain that an immediate family member was dealing with a serious illness.  I got a call later from one of the parents that asked I keep things confidential to make it easier for the family to get through a very tough time.  So, it has become a very difficult line to walk.  My actions with the player, I'm sure, didn't look strong enough to the team and even to the other coaches.  But I can't explain the rationale behind those actions due to the requested confidentiality of the family.  It's what's below the surface, in this case.  

I'm not at all saying this is the same as an FU to the coach.  Maybe the coach just caved to a good player and was too weak in that moment.  But there might be more there.  

Coach, what a great way to handle this!  Shows your commitment to your student athletes.  The older I get, the more I find that there is often "more to it than meets the eye" - and you never know what troubles or hardships someone is facing. 

This could have been handled a whole lot better by the HC.  I don't care what the circumstance are.   A player can't be pulling this crap.   I know for a fact this would not have been tolerated by any High School, American Legion or Travel coach my kids played for.   I would have got a phone call, and it would have gone down hill very quickly for my son.  

At the very least the kid owes the AC and team an apology, team suspension, parental meeting to discuss and sort this out.  Possibly some field maintenance duty and an hour long lesson to how to bunt correctly for the team would also be in order.  At the most, he should be kicked off the team.   When his college coach checks up on this recruit that will be an interesting conversation about how he got kicked off the team.

The HC needs to find his spine.   It is probably in the tool shed next to the field rake, tamper and field grooming equipment.

Oh, and BTW, in spite of the sincerity of my story, the player (and team) in the OP's scenario would not have gotten past the second missed bunt sign.  Practice would have come to an abrupt halt before he finished his swing.

Fenway, I typically agree with you, but would you have your son kicked off the team based upon this third hand hearsay?

A player reports what he heard at practice to a dad. Player reports what the HC said to the kid. And based upon this, you would take drastic, possibly life altering action? No context, no trusting the judgement of the adults who were actually present and who should be aware of their kids?  I am not excusing any action/non action taken by the coach; I am saying the coach was there and we'll see where this plays out. Knee jerk reactions are seldom the most reasoned actions. (Would your feelings be the same if you learned the kid - right before practice - was told the family had been evicted and was now homeless? Context, context, context.

i have employed hundreds of teens and young adults over the years in my (since retired) business - many in their first or second jobs. Virtually every time I had issues with their performance (late, no show, etc) and thought I knew, just knew -mind you - the full story, there were circumstances I wasn't aware of - the drug overdoses, the parental illnesses, the overwhelming feelings of life closing in. And I was simply an employer, not a coach, not a mentor, not paid to place their lives in context. 

The movie Sandlot said it something like this: baseball is life. Life - especially at the younger end - is all about learning, building a soul, and building on experiences. We all believe that baseball is a great vehicle for this. As we all know, the road is twisty, rocky, and full of bumps. A coaches job (especially pre-college) is moving these teens forward towards real life; I'll go with the coach who was there over third hand hearsay. (For all we know, the kid will be running laps the entire season and will not see the field. Many times it's easier to quit/be fired then be forced to stick it out.)

Rant over.

fenwaysouth posted:

This could have been handled a whole lot better by the HC.  I don't care what the circumstance are.   A player can't be pulling this crap.   I know for a fact this would not have been tolerated by any High School, American Legion or Travel coach my kids played for.   I would have got a phone call, and it would have gone down hill very quickly for my son.  

At the very least the kid owes the AC and team an apology, team suspension, parental meeting to discuss and sort this out.  Possibly some field maintenance duty and an hour long lesson to how to bunt correctly for the team would also be in order.  At the most, he should be kicked off the team.   When his college coach checks up on this recruit that will be an interesting conversation about how he got kicked off the team.

The HC needs to find his spine.   It is probably in the tool shed next to the field rake, tamper and field grooming equipment.

We’re cut from the same cloth, Fenway...and I’m a big believer in second chances.  The level of disrespect here is really concerning to me, but again, this is my opinion. 

Does anyone here think that he would do that next year in college? I don’t. 

Disclaimer: My comments are solely based on the situation happening exactly as described by the OP.

My opinions are subject to change if facts and true accounts where lost in translation. :-)

I think it was a good time for a teaching moment.  Even giving the benefit of the doubt that there were bigger issues going on with the kid, there are ways to handle pain/hurt/stress whatever.  I would certainly show empathy for his situation (if there is one) but also explain that his reaction was unacceptable and as his coach, while I sympathize, there are still consequences.  That is life.

Run him till he vomits, then run him some more.

I don't know about the rest of you but when I tell someone F you I'm ready to fight them.  Knock down drag out good old fashion knock your block off fight.  That's what F you means.  By the time you are a senior in HS you should know that F you is NEVER EVER the response for anything you're going through.  Plus if it's serious (someone used evicted from the house) why are they at practice?  They should be with family taking care of family issues.  Family first then baseball.  This is a learning experience - he should learn that you drop F you on a person in authority you are no longer welcome on the team no matter what is going on.

I tell my guys if there is something going on in life that is stressful then come tell me ahead of time so we can avoid situations like this.  If I know they are struggling with something I'm not going to get on them that day.  I would like to know more about what the situation is but I have a very hard time thinking this kid is nothing more than disrespectful punk.  But the way I imagine it going down in my head leads me to that conclusion.  Irregardless he should know by now that F you is never the right response.

Chicago643 posted:

Player was at HS Varsity practice yesterday. Another 2-way player (more of a pitcher than a position player, likely #2 or 3 in pitching rotation, committed to a 4-yr school) was hitting in an intra-squad scrimmage. Asst Coach gave the bunt sign, kid swung and missed (no bunt attempt). Coach yells down to the player that he missed the sign, he was supposed to bunt. Player gets sign again - bunt. Player swings and misses. Coach says "Dude, why are you not bunting?" and player responds with "F-you." This is within earshot of all the team, all heard it, including Asst Coach. Asst Coach tells player to gather his stuff and leave. Player proceeds to do that and HC pulls him into office and talks to him for 30 minutes before sending him home. End of practice, HC addresses team and says "Johnny was wrong, but that was strike 1 for him. He will be back tomorrow."

 

BTW - this is HC's first year at a very storied program with enormous success. Wheels seem to be falling off.

My son came home saying WTF?

Are you in Illinois?  I though team practices with coaches are not allowed this time of year?

It's "club" via HS...for all practical purposes, it's the HS team

cabbagedad posted:

 

About a month ago, he called in that he would miss a practice and called late the next.  Very uncharacteristically and against our team policy, he was vague about his reason.  I pulled him out for a "discussion".  I contemplated going full ream or opening it up for him to explain why his commitment level wasn't where his teammates needed it to be.   Thank God I chose the latter.  He went on to explain that an immediate family member was dealing with a serious illness.  I got a call later from one of his parents asking that I keep things confidential to make it easier for the family to get through a very tough time.  So, it has become a very difficult line to walk.  My actions with the player, I'm sure, didn't look strong enough to the team and even to the other coaches.  But I can't explain the rationale behind those actions due to the requested confidentiality of the family.  It's what's below the surface, in this case.  

 

This ...

What a lot of folks not in education don't understand is the external factors that come into play when discipling a player.  Many factors can influence things.  Everything from does the kid have access to food at home to is the kid dealing with a terminal illness to a parent that others don't know about.  These factors can not be discussed with others and at times it may appear that an administrator/coach/teacher, etc.  are taking it easy on the kid.  Lets not forget that these coaches are educators first.  The first question to be answered when discipling a kid, is "whats right for the kid".

Goosegg posted:

Fenway, I typically agree with you, but would you have your son kicked off the team based upon this third hand hearsay?

A player reports what he heard at practice to a dad. Player reports what the HC said to the kid. And based upon this, you would take drastic, possibly life altering action? No context, no trusting the judgement of the adults who were actually present and who should be aware of their kids?  I am not excusing any action/non action taken by the coach; I am saying the coach was there and we'll see where this plays out. Knee jerk reactions are seldom the most reasoned actions. (Would your feelings be the same if you learned the kid - right before practice - was told the family had been evicted and was now homeless? Context, context, context.

i have employed hundreds of teens and young adults over the years in my (since retired) business - many in their first or second jobs. Virtually every time I had issues with their performance (late, no show, etc) and thought I knew, just knew -mind you - the full story, there were circumstances I wasn't aware of - the drug overdoses, the parental illnesses, the overwhelming feelings of life closing in. And I was simply an employer, not a coach, not a mentor, not paid to place their lives in context. 

The movie Sandlot said it something like this: baseball is life. Life - especially at the younger end - is all about learning, building a soul, and building on experiences. We all believe that baseball is a great vehicle for this. As we all know, the road is twisty, rocky, and full of bumps. A coaches job (especially pre-college) is moving these teens forward towards real life; I'll go with the coach who was there over third hand hearsay. (For all we know, the kid will be running laps the entire season and will not see the field. Many times it's easier to quit/be fired then be forced to stick it out.)

Rant over.

Sometime learning there are parameters for conduct, with that lesson being a tough one, is as important as forgiveness. Historically, this has never been a soft program. Previous HC would have escorted this kid to his car and not given him an audience to explain himself. There is no reason for my player to lie or embellish what he witnessed. He was there for everything except the 30 minute meeting. I will keep you up to date on how this plays out going forward, but to allow this kind of behavior when there are other kids of equal talent waiting in line who won't act like this, to me, is not reflecting well on the coach with his players (at least my player) and I can only guess the coaching staff too.

Joes87, I think the mantra for a team sport should be program, team, player. This player spouted off and was insubordinate. Regardless of the underlying cause (if there even is one), accountability is always preached by coaches. Suddenly its not as important because "he may have something else going on in his life." We all have external stressors that impact our daily stress level, not all kids will react that way, with insubordination and disrespect. FWIW, Asst Coach was not at today's practice. Not sure why. Hopefully we didn't lose him. he's one of the good ones.

Handcontrol posted:

Chicago643 posted:

Player was at HS Varsity practice yesterday. Another 2-way player (more of a pitcher than a position player, likely #2 or 3 in pitching rotation, committed to a 4-yr school) was hitting in an intra-squad scrimmage. Asst Coach gave the bunt sign, kid swung and missed (no bunt attempt). Coach yells down to the player that he missed the sign, he was supposed to bunt. Player gets sign again - bunt. Player swings and misses. Coach says "Dude, why are you not bunting?" and player responds with "F-you." This is within earshot of all the team, all heard it, including Asst Coach. Asst Coach tells player to gather his stuff and leave. Player proceeds to do that and HC pulls him into office and talks to him for 30 minutes before sending him home. End of practice, HC addresses team and says "Johnny was wrong, but that was strike 1 for him. He will be back tomorrow."

 

BTW - this is HC's first year at a very storied program with enormous success. Wheels seem to be falling off.

My son came home saying WTF?

Are you in Illinois?  I though team practices with coaches are not allowed this time of year?

I still don't think its allowed.  Coaches can't hold an organized practice under the guise of a club.  However, they can hold open gyms and allow the kids to organize themselves and workout together.  The coach can not be directing the open gym.  I would say there is an issue if they are giving signs and throwing BP.

I don't know the legality of it, Joes87, I just know this is what they are doing. It's a club team, using the HS facility, run by HS coaches. If it's illegal, every school in our area is doing it illegally.

These responses remind of when that new dad gets on here, says he just bought his first radar gun and wants to know where his 11yo ought to be topping out when they head out to the ballfield for the first time this year tomorrow.  There are usually a few that will immediately jump in and make sure the new guy understands that he is a complete idiot and that he is getting ready to ruin the kid's arm over the next two weeks.  A few more will speak up and, after calling him an idiot, will instruct him to put away the gun and simply let the kid throw some and not worry - make sure he remains well rounded.

Eventually, someone will calmly explain why the radar gun is not a great tool and why is should not be brought out of the closet until the kid is shaving (or thereabouts - may have this confused with throwing curveballs).  It is usually well composed and covers most of the important aspects of a young kid throwing.  Finally, some folks will come on and say that we shouldn't call these dads idiots (at least not immediatley) but rather explain nicely why he is misguided - someone will say that we ought to have a standard responsed, something like reference to a golden thread.

Maybe the kid had a really bad day.  Maybe the AC was dating the kid's mom and things went south.  Maybe the AC deserved it (I have no real idea how this could be the case, but can't discount it completely).  So we immediately say kick the kid off the team and teach him a lesson.  Then someone says maybe the punishment ought not be that extensive - make him run forever.  Then someone comes on here and says that they have no real idea because all we've heard is some third party's take on the situation - could be correct or could be missing some very important pieces.  

I really hope the OP reads these last posts and does not start making judgments.  I don't think his son will ever have a complete grasp of the situation and there is no reason to try to ferret out a few more details, much less come back here and share these few extra tidbits.  Maybe this does lead to some good discussion about how in general a program needs to be run, but I think it is important that we don't focus too much on the actual situation at hand (unless of course you were at the practice and were invited to sit in when the HC and the player sat down together).

joes87 posted:

cabbagedad posted:

 

About a month ago, he called in that he would miss a practice and called late the next.  Very uncharacteristically and against our team policy, he was vague about his reason.  I pulled him out for a "discussion".  I contemplated going full ream or opening it up for him to explain why his commitment level wasn't where his teammates needed it to be.   Thank God I chose the latter.  He went on to explain that an immediate family member was dealing with a serious illness.  I got a call later from one of his parents asking that I keep things confidential to make it easier for the family to get through a very tough time.  So, it has become a very difficult line to walk.  My actions with the player, I'm sure, didn't look strong enough to the team and even to the other coaches.  But I can't explain the rationale behind those actions due to the requested confidentiality of the family.  It's what's below the surface, in this case.  

 

This ...

What a lot of folks not in education don't understand is the external factors that come into play when discipling a player.  Many factors can influence things.  Everything from does the kid have access to food at home to is the kid dealing with a terminal illness to a parent that others don't know about.  These factors can not be discussed with others and at times it may appear that an administrator/coach/teacher, etc.  are taking it easy on the kid.  Lets not forget that these coaches are educators first.  The first question to be answered when discipling a kid, is "whats right for the kid".

 

Okay, I get that some kids have it hard. Very hard! But aren’t all teenagers going through something? And yes, serious illness is not the same as “OMG, I’ve a huge pimple!”  But a kid uncharacteristically, calling out and being late to practices is a looooonnnnggggggg way from “F... you!” IMO. Just not in the same stratosphere.

My life wasn’t easy and neither was it for most of my friends growing up in rural SC but I never witnessed or even heard about someone telling the coach “F.... you!” There’s a whole lotta grey area that you can dance around before you get to that phrase.

I get that we don’t know all the facts but why didn’t he bunt - twice? Because he’s having problem at home just doesn’t seem like the reason. Again, I get it - the kid could be hurting - but are we going to now think that “outside influences” are the only reason that kids do stupid things. Also, what about the other kids on the team who maybe going through tougher circumstances and still listen to and respect authority.

I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit today and can’t think of one scenario where this is acceptable. Sorry! 

Again, this is my opinion and I don’t expect to change anyone’s viewpoint.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

These responses remind of when that new dad gets on here, says he just bought his first radar gun and wants to know where his 11yo ought to be topping out when they head out to the ballfield for the first time this year tomorrow.  There are usually a few that will immediately jump in and make sure the new guy understands that he is a complete idiot and that he is getting ready to ruin the kid's arm over the next two weeks.  A few more will speak up and, after calling him an idiot, will instruct him to put away the gun and simply let the kid throw some and not worry - make sure he remains well rounded.

Eventually, someone will calmly explain why the radar gun is not a great tool and why is should not be brought out of the closet until the kid is shaving (or thereabouts - may have this confused with throwing curveballs).  It is usually well composed and covers most of the important aspects of a young kid throwing.  Finally, some folks will come on and say that we shouldn't call these dads idiots (at least not immediatley) but rather explain nicely why he is misguided - someone will say that we ought to have a standard responsed, something like reference to a golden thread.

Maybe the kid had a really bad day.  Maybe the AC was dating the kid's mom and things went south.  Maybe the AC deserved it (I have no real idea how this could be the case, but can't discount it completely).  So we immediately say kick the kid off the team and teach him a lesson.  Then someone says maybe the punishment ought not be that extensive - make him run forever.  Then someone comes on here and says that they have no real idea because all we've heard is some third party's take on the situation - could be correct or could be missing some very important pieces.  

I really hope the OP reads these last posts and does not start making judgments.  I don't think his son will ever have a complete grasp of the situation and there is no reason to try to ferret out a few more details, much less come back here and share these few extra tidbits.  Maybe this does lead to some good discussion about how in general a program needs to be run, but I think it is important that we don't focus too much on the actual situation at hand (unless of course you were at the practice and were invited to sit in when the HC and the player sat down together).

I will immediately stop commenting on this topic because you deem it unworthy - not!

FWIW, AC is married, players mom is not someone you would be jeopardizing said marriage for.

Goosegg posted:

Fenway, I typically agree with you, but would you have your son kicked off the team based upon this third hand hearsay?

A player reports what he heard at practice to a dad. Player reports what the HC said to the kid. And based upon this, you would take drastic, possibly life altering action? No context, no trusting the judgement of the adults who were actually present and who should be aware of their kids?  I am not excusing any action/non action taken by the coach; I am saying the coach was there and we'll see where this plays out. Knee jerk reactions are seldom the most reasoned actions. (Would your feelings be the same if you learned the kid - right before practice - was told the family had been evicted and was now homeless? Context, context, context.

i have employed hundreds of teens and young adults over the years in my (since retired) business - many in their first or second jobs. Virtually every time I had issues with their performance (late, no show, etc) and thought I knew, just knew -mind you - the full story, there were circumstances I wasn't aware of - the drug overdoses, the parental illnesses, the overwhelming feelings of life closing in. And I was simply an employer, not a coach, not a mentor, not paid to place their lives in context. 

The movie Sandlot said it something like this: baseball is life. Life - especially at the younger end - is all about learning, building a soul, and building on experiences. We all believe that baseball is a great vehicle for this. As we all know, the road is twisty, rocky, and full of bumps. A coaches job (especially pre-college) is moving these teens forward towards real life; I'll go with the coach who was there over third hand hearsay. (For all we know, the kid will be running laps the entire season and will not see the field. Many times it's easier to quit/be fired then be forced to stick it out.)

Rant over.

Goose,

So, I see two wrongs not making a right here.  First, the kid under no circumstances should be talking to a coach in that manner.   Again, I don't care what his excuse is.   Second, is how the coach handled this.   I'm going to allow some leniency here and I provided a range of consequences from lenient to strong (in my previous post) based on what the "kid" actually did based on the info provided, and how he is going to remedy the situation.   If the player is not willing to remedy the situation, frankly I don't see a place for him on the team.   Depending on what actually happened I think the coach needs to take some action or he will lose respect from the AC and the rest of the team.    Yes, baseball kids can be knuckleheads.  This was an opportunity to demonstrate zero tolerance for this behavior in front of the team.  The opportunity was lost on the coach.   I look at it this way, if the kid did this to a college coach, college professor, Army Sargeant, or a Corporate boss he is going to find himself on his own.   The coach is doing him no favors by allowing him to come back the next day with no consequences.  

As always, JMO.

I will immediately stop commenting on this topic because you deem it unworthy - not!

FWIW, AC is married, players mom is not someone you would be jeopardizing said marriage for.

OK - so now you have taken one explanation off the table.  Unfortunately, I was in no way seriously implying that the AC and mom dated, just threw it out there as a hypothetical.  Your response is sort of what happens when you start discussing a very specific topic about very specific individuals.  Apparently we are now 24 hours out from the episode and somehow folks are opining on whether the situation was handled correctly.  Unless the kid came back today and told all his fellow players that next time he going to tell off the HC instead, we really have no idea of what is happening.  

You can comment all you want about this very specific instance (and why the kid should be off the team and you "others" should move up the pecking order) but it really doesn't add to the collective wisdom of this board.  Vent if you must, but don't make it sound like you are defending the integrity of high school baseball.

I am curious about the situation, but I am not about to start asking picky little personal questions about the individuals and play couch psychologist.  But just out of curiosity, why wouldn't someone jeopardize their marriage for the mom?  That ought to add to our collective wisdom.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Maybe the AC was dating the kid's mom and things went south. 

Reminds me of an East Cobb baseball story from a few years ago.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I will immediately stop commenting on this topic because you deem it unworthy - not!

FWIW, AC is married, players mom is not someone you would be jeopardizing said marriage for.

OK - so now you have taken one explanation off the table.  Unfortunately, I was in no way seriously implying that the AC and mom dated, just threw it out there as a hypothetical.  Your response is sort of what happens when you start discussing a very specific topic about very specific individuals.  Apparently we are now 24 hours out from the episode and somehow folks are opining on whether the situation was handled correctly.  Unless the kid came back today and told all his fellow players that next time he going to tell off the HC instead, we really have no idea of what is happening.  

You can comment all you want about this very specific instance (and why the kid should be off the team and you "others" should move up the pecking order) but it really doesn't add to the collective wisdom of this board.  Vent if you must, but don't make it sound like you are defending the integrity of high school baseball.

I am curious about the situation, but I am not about to start asking picky little personal questions about the individuals and play couch psychologist.  But just out of curiosity, why wouldn't someone jeopardize their marriage for the mom?  That ought to add to our collective wisdom.

Well, well....Looks like the HSBBweb thread police arrived! Just in time to inject his personal opinion while at the same time, stating other's opinions aren't worth a $hit......Fancy that!

Perhaps the OP will head your shaky advice of thinking long & hard of what adds to the collective wisdom of this board prior to starting a new thread? Then again....perhaps NOT.

Have a nice weekend, officer.

The only person that knows whether or not this was handled correctly is the HC.  

Would I ever let a kid say that to me, absolutely not, and there would be a price to pay.  However, what happens to the kid depends on individual situations.  

At parent team meeting I assure the parents that discipline with be consistent but not even because all circumstances are different.  Kid says, "F You" because he does not want to bunt is one thing.  A kid snapping and saying "F You" because he just found out in the morning that he will be homeless by the end of the day is totally different.  Both will be punished but doesn't mean it will happen the same way.

Chicago643 posted:

I agree goosegg, however the precedent he is setting is that every player now apparently can tell a coach to "F-off" three times (apparently - if the kids really get 3 strikes). That sets a pretty ugly precedent that will spread and perpetuate throughout the program. Plus it shows the kids who tow the line that their coach is a push over.

I don't agree with that. Will your son now tell the coaches FU because another player did. Of course not. Neither will the others. If they do their parents didn't teach them from right or wrong.

Were you in the room when the coach talked to the player? 

IMO it was not the AC job to tell the player to pack up his things and go home. That was on the HC to decide how to handle that moment, later discussion with the AC.

Last year a player at sons program went a bit over the edge with my son, who was not even one of his pitchers. The issue was handled by the AD. The reason being was that both the HC and assistants were mad, when it comes to kids, you don't make rash decisions because they pushed your buttons.  Kids do that.

I understand your concern, but as I always say, worry about your son and his attitude, grades and performance, not someone else's.

JMO

I'm not policing, I'm just saying that soliciting other's opinions about a very personal situation for which none of us (including OP) will ever have complete information is not going to result in any well founded opinion, just opinions.

The OP actually offered up that the AC was married and that the mom was not worthy of ruining one's marraige over.  He mentioned that he would "keep us up to date".  Maybe he could just spell out the school and start naming names.  He seems to already have a strong opinion and perhaps is seeking validation.  I am simply pointing out that - IMO -this is not the appropriate forum to start sharing more and more detailed nuggets in what looks like a predetermined effort to get the kid thrown off the team.  If others keep responding, then my opinion could be wrong.

I personally think the kid should be tested for nearsightedness and Tourette's syndrome before he gets booted.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

These responses remind of when that new dad gets on here, says he just bought his first radar gun and wants to know where his 11yo ought to be topping out when they head out to the ballfield for the first time this year tomorrow.  There are usually a few that will immediately jump in and make sure the new guy understands that he is a complete idiot and that he is getting ready to ruin the kid's arm over the next two weeks.  A few more will speak up and, after calling him an idiot, will instruct him to put away the gun and simply let the kid throw some and not worry - make sure he remains well rounded.

Eventually, someone will calmly explain why the radar gun is not a great tool and why is should not be brought out of the closet until the kid is shaving (or thereabouts - may have this confused with throwing curveballs).  It is usually well composed and covers most of the important aspects of a young kid throwing.  Finally, some folks will come on and say that we shouldn't call these dads idiots (at least not immediatley) but rather explain nicely why he is misguided - someone will say that we ought to have a standard responsed, something like reference to a golden thread.

Maybe the kid had a really bad day.  Maybe the AC was dating the kid's mom and things went south.  Maybe the AC deserved it (I have no real idea how this could be the case, but can't discount it completely).  So we immediately say kick the kid off the team and teach him a lesson.  Then someone says maybe the punishment ought not be that extensive - make him run forever.  Then someone comes on here and says that they have no real idea because all we've heard is some third party's take on the situation - could be correct or could be missing some very important pieces.  

I really hope the OP reads these last posts and does not start making judgments.  I don't think his son will ever have a complete grasp of the situation and there is no reason to try to ferret out a few more details, much less come back here and share these few extra tidbits.  Maybe this does lead to some good discussion about how in general a program needs to be run, but I think it is important that we don't focus too much on the actual situation at hand (unless of course you were at the practice and were invited to sit in when the HC and the player sat down together).

I think you bring up excellent points.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I will immediately stop commenting on this topic because you deem it unworthy - not!

FWIW, AC is married, players mom is not someone you would be jeopardizing said marriage for.

OK - so now you have taken one explanation off the table.  Unfortunately, I was in no way seriously implying that the AC and mom dated, just threw it out there as a hypothetical.  Your response is sort of what happens when you start discussing a very specific topic about very specific individuals.  Apparently we are now 24 hours out from the episode and somehow folks are opining on whether the situation was handled correctly.  Unless the kid came back today and told all his fellow players that next time he going to tell off the HC instead, we really have no idea of what is happening.  

You can comment all you want about this very specific instance (and why the kid should be off the team and you "others" should move up the pecking order) but it really doesn't add to the collective wisdom of this board.  Vent if you must, but don't make it sound like you are defending the integrity of high school baseball.

I am curious about the situation, but I am not about to start asking picky little personal questions about the individuals and play couch psychologist.  But just out of curiosity, why wouldn't someone jeopardize their marriage for the mom?  That ought to add to our collective wisdom.

We have a lot of Moms on here, and I am sure you are all lovely ladies. This one, well, not so much. Nuff said.

DesertDuck posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I will immediately stop commenting on this topic because you deem it unworthy - not!

FWIW, AC is married, players mom is not someone you would be jeopardizing said marriage for.

OK - so now you have taken one explanation off the table.  Unfortunately, I was in no way seriously implying that the AC and mom dated, just threw it out there as a hypothetical.  Your response is sort of what happens when you start discussing a very specific topic about very specific individuals.  Apparently we are now 24 hours out from the episode and somehow folks are opining on whether the situation was handled correctly.  Unless the kid came back today and told all his fellow players that next time he going to tell off the HC instead, we really have no idea of what is happening.  

You can comment all you want about this very specific instance (and why the kid should be off the team and you "others" should move up the pecking order) but it really doesn't add to the collective wisdom of this board.  Vent if you must, but don't make it sound like you are defending the integrity of high school baseball.

I am curious about the situation, but I am not about to start asking picky little personal questions about the individuals and play couch psychologist.  But just out of curiosity, why wouldn't someone jeopardize their marriage for the mom?  That ought to add to our collective wisdom.

Well, well....Looks like the HSBBweb thread police arrived! Just in time to inject his personal opinion while at the same time, stating other's opinions aren't worth a $hit......Fancy that!

Perhaps the OP will head your shaky advice of thinking long & hard of what adds to the collective wisdom of this board prior to starting a new thread? Then again....perhaps NOT.

Have a nice weekend, officer.

Most likely not

TPM posted:

Chicago643 posted:

I agree goosegg, however the precedent he is setting is that every player now apparently can tell a coach to "F-off" three times (apparently - if the kids really get 3 strikes). That sets a pretty ugly precedent that will spread and perpetuate throughout the program. Plus it shows the kids who tow the line that their coach is a push over.

I don't agree with that. Will your son now tell the coaches FU because another player did. Of course not. Neither will the others. If they do their parents didn't teach them from right or wrong.

Were you in the room when the coach talked to the player? 

IMO it was not the AC job to tell the player to pack up his things and go home. That was on the HC to decide how to handle that moment, later discussion with the AC.

Last year a player at sons program went a bit over the edge with my son, who was not even one of his pitchers. The issue was handled by the AD. The reason being was that both the HC and assistants were mad, when it comes to kids, you don't make rash decisions because they pushed your buttons.  Kids do that.

I understand your concern, but as I always say, worry about your son and his attitude, grades and performance, not someone else's.

JMO

Not worried about anyone else, I am worried about the program. I worry that even though I have raised my son the best that I can, and I don't think he would do that, being in that kind of atmosphere and seeing that behavior is not something I wish for. I know, crap happens, but it has been happening at a much accelerated rate at the program under the new coach.

I also think this is more interesting to talk about than whether to swing a 32 or 33 inch bat.

JMO

Qhead posted:

Sure doesn't seem like it was handled in the best manner - you'd think at a minimum the player would be suspended and required to apologize to the AC personally and to the team.  What is missing is the content of the conversation between the HC and the player.  It may be that the player is having personal issues at home or the like, and he lashed out?  Doesn't make it right, but things can be hard on young adults and they don't have the maturity to handle.  If it was just the kid being a jerk though - that is a bad precedent!  Hope this is a one time thing that does not adversely affect your team.

Maybe he cant bunt 

Player suspended for 1 week...

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

Makes more sense.

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

F you  <smirk>

hshuler posted:

joes87 posted:

cabbagedad posted:

 

About a month ago, he called in that he would miss a practice and called late the next.  Very uncharacteristically and against our team policy, he was vague about his reason.  I pulled him out for a "discussion".  I contemplated going full ream or opening it up for him to explain why his commitment level wasn't where his teammates needed it to be.   Thank God I chose the latter.  He went on to explain that an immediate family member was dealing with a serious illness.  I got a call later from one of his parents asking that I keep things confidential to make it easier for the family to get through a very tough time.  So, it has become a very difficult line to walk.  My actions with the player, I'm sure, didn't look strong enough to the team and even to the other coaches.  But I can't explain the rationale behind those actions due to the requested confidentiality of the family.  It's what's below the surface, in this case.  

 

This ...

What a lot of folks not in education don't understand is the external factors that come into play when discipling a player.  Many factors can influence things.  Everything from does the kid have access to food at home to is the kid dealing with a terminal illness to a parent that others don't know about.  These factors can not be discussed with others and at times it may appear that an administrator/coach/teacher, etc.  are taking it easy on the kid.  Lets not forget that these coaches are educators first.  The first question to be answered when discipling a kid, is "whats right for the kid".

 

Okay, I get that some kids have it hard. Very hard! But aren’t all teenagers going through something? And yes, serious illness is not the same as “OMG, I’ve a huge pimple!”  But a kid uncharacteristically, calling out and being late to practices is a looooonnnnggggggg way from “F... you!” IMO. Just not in the same stratosphere.

My life wasn’t easy and neither was it for most of my friends growing up in rural SC but I never witnessed or even heard about someone telling the coach “F.... you!” There’s a whole lotta grey area that you can dance around before you get to that phrase.

I get that we don’t know all the facts but why didn’t he bunt - twice? Because he’s having problem at home just doesn’t seem like the reason. Again, I get it - the kid could be hurting - but are we going to now think that “outside influences” are the only reason that kids do stupid things. Also, what about the other kids on the team who maybe going through tougher circumstances and still listen to and respect authority.

I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit today and can’t think of one scenario where this is acceptable. Sorry! 

Again, this is my opinion and I don’t expect to change anyone’s viewpoint.

 

I get it, and for the most part, and if there is not extenuating circumstances the kid should be booted...

But most folks don't have a clue what some kids are going through.  My wife is an administrator in our local school district.  We live is a wealthy area with schools that are considered some of the top in the country.  In addition our town is consistently named as one of the best places to live/raise a family in the US.  By all accounts its a community where you do not expect many family issues.  The reality is there are things happening to kids every day that schools need to deal with.  Consider this scenario.  Its factual based and applied to this baseball situation, but is not related in anyway to the OPs post.  This type problem is more common then most folks think.

Kid lives in a home with no father and a mother that is a drug addict.  Rotating male role models through the house.  No one sticks around long and none of them are upstanding citizens.  In fact many are a one time thing and sometimes there is more then one of them in the house in a day.  Mother uses them for money and drugs.  Men use the mom for the sex.  She is not a prostitute in the normal sense, but is a junkie.  Many of them abuse her and at times her son.  No food in the house as all the money goes toward drugs.  The only real meals the kid gets is breakfast and lunch at school.

Kid is a smart kid and realizes that the way out of his life is through education, he also enjoys playing baseball.  Wakes up the morning of the incident and finds out that the only constant in his life, his grandmother, has been diagnosed with cancer and has 6 weeks to live.  He heads off to school with our really processing the information.  Shows up at baseball practice that afternoon.  Feels like the coach has put some pressure on him and acts out.  While its directed at the coach it really has nothing to do with the  coach, but rather a misplaced reaction to his current situation.

In many cases the administration and HC know what is going on.  The AC may not and certainly the team would not have a clue.  In fact by law the school can not disclose any of this information to anyone.  As a coach what are you going to do?  You have two options.  Kick the kid off the team and possibility put him back into the poverty/drug cycle.  Or you can give the kid a break and keep him on the team mentoring him and hopefully keep the kid pointed in the right direction.

Again, this is not always the situation but I used it to illustrate the decision coaches have to make at times.  Things are not always black and white, and unless you are one of the directly involved parties you never have all the information.

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

I think that you assumed too quickly that the HC let him off the hook. I think it's rather sad that you tried to make the  HC look like a jerk.

It's easy to understand why so many coaches will not deal with parents.

JMO

TPM posted:

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

I think that you assumed too quickly that the HC let him off the hook. I think it's rather sad that you tried to make the  HC look like a jerk.

It's easy to understand why so many coaches will not deal with parents.

JMO

 

Maybe you should go back and read the original post where the following was stated:

"HC addresses team and says "Johnny was wrong, but that was strike 1 for him. He will be back tomorrow."

I think YOU need to work on your reading comprehension and retention before taking jab's at others the way you do. I think it's rather sad that YOU tried to make the OP look like a jerk. It's easy to understand why so many people feel the way they do about you.

JMO

Chicago643 

Sometime learning there are parameters for conduct, with that lesson being a tough one, is as important as forgiveness. Historically, this has never been a soft program. Previous HC would have escorted this kid to his car and not given him an audience to explain himself. There is no reason for my player to lie or embellish what he witnessed. He was there for everything except the 30 minute meeting. I will keep you up to date on how this plays out going forward, but to allow this kind of behavior when there are other kids of equal talent waiting in line who won't act like this, to me, is not reflecting well on the coach with his players (at least my player) and I can only guess the coaching staff too.

Joes87, I think the mantra for a team sport should be program, team, player. This player spouted off and was insubordinate. Regardless of the underlying cause (if there even is one), accountability is always preached by coaches. Suddenly its not as important because "he may have something else going on in his life." We all have external stressors that impact our daily stress level, not all kids will react that way, with insubordination and disrespect. FWIW, Asst Coach was not at today's practice. Not sure why. Hopefully we didn't lose him. he's one of the good ones.

Yes I read it and I read this too, did you?

DesertDuck posted:

TPM posted:

Chicago643 posted:

Player suspended for 1 week...

I think that you assumed too quickly that the HC let him off the hook. I think it's rather sad that you tried to make the  HC look like a jerk.

It's easy to understand why so many coaches will not deal with parents.

JMO

 

Maybe you should go back and read the original post where the following was stated:

"HC addresses team and says "Johnny was wrong, but that was strike 1 for him. He will be back tomorrow."

I think YOU need to work on your reading comprehension and retention before taking jab's at others the way you do. I think it's rather sad that YOU tried to make the OP look like a jerk. It's easy to understand why so many people feel the way they do about you.

JMO

I think you should keep your nastiness out of it. You have been warned on several occassions. 

Don't let it be your last.

I don't care whether people like me or not. Really. I. DON'T.

joes87 posted:

I get it, and for the most part, and if there is not extenuating circumstances the kid should be booted...

But most folks don't have a clue what some kids are going through.  My wife is an administrator in our local school district.  We live is a wealthy area with schools that are considered some of the top in the country.  In addition our town is consistently named as one of the best places to live/raise a family in the US.  By all accounts its a community where you do not expect many family issues.  The reality is there are things happening to kids every day that schools need to deal with.  Consider this scenario.  Its factual based and applied to this baseball situation, but is not related in anyway to the OPs post.  This type problem is more common then most folks think.

Kid lives in a home with no father and a mother that is a drug addict.  Rotating male role models through the house.  No one sticks around long and none of them are upstanding citizens.  In fact many are a one time thing and sometimes there is more then one of them in the house in a day.  Mother uses them for money and drugs.  Men use the mom for the sex.  She is not a prostitute in the normal sense, but is a junkie.  Many of them abuse her and at times her son.  No food in the house as all the money goes toward drugs.  The only real meals the kid gets is breakfast and lunch at school.

Kid is a smart kid and realizes that the way out of his life is through education, he also enjoys playing baseball.  Wakes up the morning of the incident and finds out that the only constant in his life, his grandmother, has been diagnosed with cancer and has 6 weeks to live.  He heads off to school with our really processing the information.  Shows up at baseball practice that afternoon.  Feels like the coach has put some pressure on him and acts out.  While its directed at the coach it really has nothing to do with the  coach, but rather a misplaced reaction to his current situation.

In many cases the administration and HC know what is going on.  The AC may not and certainly the team would not have a clue.  In fact by law the school can not disclose any of this information to anyone.  As a coach what are you going to do?  You have two options.  Kick the kid off the team and possibility put him back into the poverty/drug cycle.  Or you can give the kid a break and keep him on the team mentoring him and hopefully keep the kid pointed in the right direction.

Again, this is not always the situation but I used it to illustrate the decision coaches have to make at times.  Things are not always black and white, and unless you are one of the directly involved parties you never have all the information.

 

I almost posted something similar in my earlier response about the fact that kids, including kids in affluent families, go through all kinds of unimaginable stuff. We are in a small public school, about 1000 kids ranging from very poor rural to very affluent. In the past 18 months, baseball team has dealt with a kid abusing marijuana (his parents have a very tumultuous marriage and mom has moved in and out several times recently), senior got girlfriend pregnant and baby born (both from affluent conservative Christian families), a player's brother arrested for dealing drugs for the second time (kid also doesn't see his dad), and a player whose mom appears to be a raging alcoholic or mentally ill (or both) based on the way she shows up to games. And these are just the issues we are aware of in this small program. 

I know coaches can't fix these problems, but I hope they do what they can to support and mentor the young men. Hopefully coaches will connect the kid to other resources when needed (even if it's just sending them to the school counselor). In that process, hopefully his players become resilient young men who make good choices and become productive adult citizens. Being on a team might be the only good thing in a child's life; if that is taken away they are likely to spiral downward. 

Sounds like the coach in OP's scenario managed the situation very well. He talked to the kid and hopefully addressed any underlying issues, but also held him accountable with a punishment. 

Chicago643 posted:

Goosegg posted:

Fenway, I typically agree with you, but would you have your son kicked off the team based upon this third hand hearsay?

A player reports what he heard at practice to a dad. Player reports what the HC said to the kid. And based upon this, you would take drastic, possibly life altering action? No context, no trusting the judgement of the adults who were actually present and who should be aware of their kids?  I am not excusing any action/non action taken by the coach; I am saying the coach was there and we'll see where this plays out. Knee jerk reactions are seldom the most reasoned actions. (Would your feelings be the same if you learned the kid - right before practice - was told the family had been evicted and was now homeless? Context, context, context.

i have employed hundreds of teens and young adults over the years in my (since retired) business - many in their first or second jobs. Virtually every time I had issues with their performance (late, no show, etc) and thought I knew, just knew -mind you - the full story, there were circumstances I wasn't aware of - the drug overdoses, the parental illnesses, the overwhelming feelings of life closing in. And I was simply an employer, not a coach, not a mentor, not paid to place their lives in context. 

The movie Sandlot said it something like this: baseball is life. Life - especially at the younger end - is all about learning, building a soul, and building on experiences. We all believe that baseball is a great vehicle for this. As we all know, the road is twisty, rocky, and full of bumps. A coaches job (especially pre-college) is moving these teens forward towards real life; I'll go with the coach who was there over third hand hearsay. (For all we know, the kid will be running laps the entire season and will not see the field. Many times it's easier to quit/be fired then be forced to stick it out.)

Rant over.

 

to allow this kind of behavior when there are other kids of equal talent waiting in line who won't act like this, to me, is not reflecting well on the coach with his players (at least my player) and I can only guess the coaching staff too.

I'm not sure why any of this matters to the other kids. My son is going to behave according to his personal ethics, not what the coach wants him to do. He's going to respect the coach based on his relationship with the coach, not on how the coach treats anyone else on the team. He can't control any of that and the only thing he can change is his own behavior--so really, that's all he needs to worry about.

And ultimately, without anyone else having knowledge of any external stressors influencing the behavior, if there is little or no ramification for the public outburst of disrespect toward the coaching staff, then the APPEARANCE to the rest of the players, coaches and families is that there are no boundaries for what constitutes acceptable conduct.

The examples given above of kids with horrible home lives is not lost on me, however we are excusing the behavior. This is leading to an erosion of authority. Sorry, deliberately blowing off two bunt signs followed by an “F-you” is inexcusable. Perhaps after the talk the coach felt a 1-week break to think about his actions is enough, I just don’t happen to agree with that. Sorry, you just blew your chance, next man up please.

I teach HS and previously was an assistant freshman baseball coach. No action is not the right action. HC should not undermine what authority he gives AC. Leniency would call for a suspension for "x" number of games. Teammates were likely shocked and are awaiting what "coach will do." If he is a recruit in the world of social media, he should pray his poor behavior and judgment weren't recorded and set to hit the web.

Chicago643 posted:

 

Sorry, deliberately blowing off two bunt signs followed by an “F-you” is inexcusable. Perhaps after the talk the coach felt a 1-week break to think about his actions is enough, I just don’t happen to agree with that. 

Chicago643,

You came here asking if this incident was handled in the right way, with question mark. You have gotten a lot of different opinions.

I agree, I think that the behavior was inexcusable, no excuses from me.

IMO, I am trying to decide, from your comments in your posts (which I did read despite what anyone thinks),  who you are more upset with, the player or the new coach.

Both

I like TPM

This just hit me today.  Something totally lost in all this, the kid is not on the team yet.  The HS is running an illegal practice under IL HS rules.  2/26/18 is the first day an IL HS can hold practices, thus the team, and cuts, can not be announced until that date at the earliest.  They are holding practices under the guise of a "club team".   Which, if the team has more then 10 members from the coaches HS, then they are in violation.  I have pasted the IL rule below.  Chicago643 claims that all schools in his area are doing it. Im in Chicagoland, not sure what area he is in, but its not happening in our area.  I know a lot of HS coaches and know that many of them are not doing this.  Yes they are holding open gyms which are allowed under the IL rule, but the kids are directing activities, not the coaches.  The coaches around here are very conscience of this rule and don't take the chance.

Ever think maybe this isn’t in Illinois, Columbo? 

Heck no......the player should be gone for a couple weeks...and the coach is a fool for allowing that kind of crap on his field.  Kinda have the feeling that this is one of those seasons that everyone involved will end up wanting to forget....not off to a good start that's for sure

Joes87 -  obviously this didn't take place in Illinois.  As long as you have been on this board I would expect you to know that many people have more than one screen name  (btw - I'm not one of them) - and often its for this very reason.  Trying to sniff out some sort of rules violation in the OP is akin to watching a PGA golf tournament on TV hoping you can observe an infraction in order to call the network and report.  Both are a poor use of time and energy.

Earlier posts discussing IL IHSA off season practice rules, in which Chicago643 participated in with no denial that that they were no in IL.  If I am wrong, then I offer my apologizes.

adbono posted:

Trying to sniff out some sort of rules violation in the OP is akin to watching a PGA golf tournament on TV hoping you can observe an infraction in order to call the network and report.  Both are a poor use of time and energy.

Fortunately due to the folks at the PGA finally coming to their senses....one of those two things is no longer an option

I'm sure you are right about the rules aspect - that just wasn't the point & since this didn't occur in Illinois your comments don't apply anyway.  Which you didn't know then - but now you do.

adbono posted:

I'm sure you are right about the rules aspect - that just wasn't the point & since this didn't occur in Illinois your comments don't apply anyway.  Which you didn't know then - but now you do.

Respectfully, I think it does apply. A great part of this conversation has been that if the coach doesn't discipline the kid "appropriately", then the rest of the team will lose respect for him. I've already said my feeling--that the kids should respect the coach's position and his behavior toward them individually and not toward anyone else.

However, if the coach was already disobeying a state rule on when practices can take place, doesn't that say something about his integrity and doesn't that impact people's respect or lack thereof for the coach?

Or shouldn't it?

I realize that if the team is not in Illinois, which it apparently isn't, that doesn't apply, but no one knew that before. It seems like a reasonable question.

Thr intent of my original post had nothing to do with where the team was located. Moreso, team dynamics as it relates to behavior/consequences. Someone took it too into the weeds in an effort to say the program is cheating. It isn’t. 

Iowamom23 posted:

adbono posted:

I'm sure you are right about the rules aspect - that just wasn't the point & since this didn't occur in Illinois your comments don't apply anyway.  Which you didn't know then - but now you do.

Respectfully, I think it does apply. A great part of this conversation has been that if the coach doesn't discipline the kid "appropriately", then the rest of the team will lose respect for him. I've already said my feeling--that the kids should respect the coach's position and his behavior toward them individually and not toward anyone else.

However, if the coach was already disobeying a state rule on when practices can take place, doesn't that say something about his integrity and doesn't that impact people's respect or lack thereof for the coach?

Or shouldn't it?

I realize that if the team is not in Illinois, which it apparently isn't, that doesn't apply, but no one knew that before. It seems like a reasonable question.

The OP was about a specific situation that (we now know) occurred in a state where official practices have already started. The Q in the OP was "did the coach  handle this properly?" The answer is he did not.  The kid should have immediately been dismissed from practice - just as the AC attempted to do. Then announce an immediate suspension and then determine all the underlying facts. When all of that is understood it can then be fairly determined how long the suspension should be and whether or not the kid should be reinstated at all.  The HC did none of these things. It appears that he is a young, inexperienced first year HC that has taken over a storied program and is following in the footsteps of a legendary coach. And he just failed his first test - miserably. Not only did he essentially allow the most blatant disrespect you can imagine, he also usurped his AC's authority in front of the whole team.  This has been pointed out by other people in prior posts.  Because these are huge mistakes - the kind the team may not be able to recover from.  I think the concern of Chicago 643 is that their program appears headed for a dumpster fire. And it sounds to me like those are valid concerns.  Now, as to your comment about rule following......a HS HC isn't going to win or lose the respect of  his players or parents based on how well he follows (sometimes silly) rules to the letter of the law.  I'm not condoning blatant disregard - I'm just saying that it isn't high on the criteria list. A HS HC earns the respect of his peers, players & parents by doing these things ; knowing & teaching the game, treating his players with respect, being fair & impartial, running good practices, making his players better, helping his players grow up, winning games, building a respected program, helping his players get recruited, and on and on.  Nobody gives a rats ass if in the course of doing all those things I listed (and more) practices get extended a few minutes too long or if the HC has his hands all over the fall program, etc.

So how many players are in this program? So potentially you could have 30 straight days of a player saying FU and disrupting a practice? Thirty straight days of holding one on one meetings? And then everyone has one strike. 

Blantant disrespect like this can never be tolerated. It must be dealt with immediately and the consequences must be clear and immediate. Your not helping the kid by not showing him that certain actions will bring definite consequences. In other words you must love him enough to hurt him. 

If this program is really legit, the head coach has to contact the AD regarding the incident and discuss the solution.  

As an assistant college coach  my son has no authority to make any decision regarding dismissing a student without discussing it with the HC, his boss.  The HC, being new to the program, should  go to AD, his boss to report the incident. IMO the assistant was wrong in dealing with the situation without discussing it with the HC.  HC and AC need to get on the same page, obviously. 

I am old school but old school isn't in anymore. There is a different philosophy out these days on how to deal with athletes.

I don't agree that because one player messed up everyone else will. I certainly raised my kids to know right from wrong, and to be honest,  if son ever did anything like that he would be afraid to come home. Sitting out a week would be nothing to the punishment handed down by mom and dad.

If the OP is so concerned with the program (before one game has ever been played), go have a sit down with the new coach, volunteer to help. Probably would do more good than complaining on a HS message board.

You may not have another incident like this. But one things for sure you have set a precedent. I must have not read the op well. I assumed this was said to the HC. So the assistant should have immediately informed the HC. HC informs the AD. Player is dismissed. 

What happens if he is just given strike one? Do the other players also get a strike one?  If not how do you justify that? Just wondering.

If this crap is happening before game #1 of the season, it’s a concern. I don’t know if these kids, and the seniors are a cocky group, are just feeling their oats and figure they can get away with stuff or testing boundaries, but that is one that an HC certainly should not allow to be crossed. I do not know if the AC dismissing the kid from practice should be viewed as a dismissal from the team - clearly the kid needed to get some distance from the ballfield (and quickly) before he cooked his goose any more. I think Coach May and Adbono summed up my feelings on this. Simply put, this would NEVER have happened last year with the previous coaching staff. Not because the coach is a hard ass, but because every player in that program respected them and knew that they all had roles to play (coaches and players). This year, it appears that chaos is ensuing. There are some pretty big egos on this team, my belief is it will get uglier before it gets better.

I could envision a scenario where new HC told kid he was a PO.  Kid gets up to bat in this club scrimmage and refused to take the bunt sign because he wanted to show them he could hit. Coach gets ticked because kid is ignoring signs.  Kid gets ticked because he thought he'd be in the line up this year.  Tempers are flaring and kid, who is a kid and does not have the self discipline of an adult, flies off the handle in a tantrum and screams the words.  HC knows why kid flew off the handle, talks to him about his future and how he needs to maintain control, and kid is suspended for a week, but must watch practice.

As long as kid gets a hold of himself for future baseball events, treats the staff with respect, and embraces the role the coaches see him in I think it will work out fine and that it was handled well.

OK - now we are 4 days out and we have a few bits of new information.  Perhaps we can continue to get daily updates.  I think would should now put the kid under a microscope and try and determine if he is worthy of a second chance or whether he is really just some punk kid.  I'm sure with a few tidbits of info we can all make that call with relative precision.

I did see where the OP came back and indicated that the AC might have simply sent the kid packing without dismissing - which IMO is certainly something the AC should have the right to do.  It seems like one of the sticking points was when the HC spoke at end of practice about the kid getting to come back.  What if the coach had been just a bit wiser and said the kid's exact status was to be determined - would that have been sufficient, especially when followed up with the one week suspension?  I really don't think this one instance is going to wreak havoc with the team's discipline, but I certainly get the feeling that there are all sorts of little things going on that the OP does not feel are going in the right direction.  In a well run program, this one scenario should be nothing more than a blip.  Coming to the immediate conclusion that the HC is spineless (I think someone specifically cited that term) and that the kid is disposable (sorry Coach May, but the "love him enough to hurt him" sometimes results in only hurt) is not something I could ever really get to sitting at this screen.  For all I know, the HC is struggling with this situation and HE IS ACTUALLY DIRECTLY INVOLVED!

Everybody agrees that it is not alright to say F YOU to an authority figure no matter if it is a team, school, work, family...etc. The part that really no one of us know about and all are reading into are the reasons for and response to what happened.  There were plenty of situations laid out that could have been effecting the kids mentality at the moment, though most were pretty low probability. It sounds like the kid was given some real discipline for mouthing off. Could it have been legitimately harder, probably. We all know most cases in the real world this is a sliding scale based on how valuable the kid is to the team. Is the best starting pitcher on the team going to be given more leash than the end of the bench guy if he pushes the envelope, absolutely. We talk a lot about baseball teaching life lessons good or bad this is a life lesson on how team/workplaces are.

Venting is fine but are there any actually new facts going to be brought up? Is there an epidemic of F YOUs going around the team? Probably not, most kids I have come across that are HS athletes tend to also be very good kids. Does this mean the coach has no control over his team and undercuts the assistants? Probably not, sounds like they might not have done what you would have but did ok.

There is actually more information in this thread on what type of real team environment it is IF they are in Illinois and are playing loose with the letter of the IHSA rules for workouts. 

Personally, I don't think ANYONE has all the facts, because not one of us was in the conversation between the coach and the player, or between the HC and AC.  

If I am the HC, I would coach my team as I see fit.  I would hand out punishment as I see fit.  Each situation is not the same.  I can't condemn the coach for giving the kid another chance, because ultimately, the coach may see that the kid was remorseful, the act was out of character, and that the kid is salvageable.  My guess is that the team is fine, but it's the parents seeing a problem that may not exist.  Some reasons for that:

• Like the old HC better than the new HC.
• My kid won't get to play as much.
• Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
• Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.

As a HC, I am going to do my utmost to do the right thing for my kids, and they are who I owe my allegiances to.  The parents are a concern, but I am not going to run my program based on their thoughts/wants.

• Like the old HC better than the new HC.
• My kid won't get to play as much.
• Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
• Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.

 

Counterpoint:

- I don't have relationships with the coaches, so whether I like them is immaterial

- My kid will be a starter on the team regardless

- "F-You" kid is a pitcher, mine is not

- I don't have a relationship with the coaches, but I do have opinions on how to run an organization, none of which will ever be shared with one of my son's coaches...ever. I won't even share them with families who also have sons on the team, that just isn't helpful. But an anonymous group of people who have no idea what program I am associated with (except for Joes87 who seems to want to ferret that info out) - fair game for feedback. FWIW, I may have posed this same question if the kid was removed from the team too...it is a good topic for discussion.

Chicago643 posted:

• Like the old HC better than the new HC.
• My kid won't get to play as much.
• Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
• Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.

 

Counterpoint:

- I don't have relationships with the coaches, so whether I like them is immaterial

- My kid will be a starter on the team regardless

- "F-You" kid is a pitcher, mine is not

- I don't have a relationship with the coaches, but I do have opinions on how to run an organization, none of which will ever be shared with one of my son's coaches...ever. I won't even share them with families who also have sons on the team, that just isn't helpful. But an anonymous group of people who have no idea what program I am associated with (except for Joes87 who seems to want to ferret that info out) - fair game for feedback. FWIW, I may have posed this same question if the kid was removed from the team too...it is a good topic for discussion.

Do all pitchers hit on your sons team?

As to the original question posted, the consensus answer is "it depends".  Looking into that answer a little closer reveals that it depends on "any number of issues and circumstances of which none of us will ever be fully privy to".

Re-phrasing the question a bit does provide some clarity.  When asked "should a player be able to address a coach with the salutation "F-you" with impunity", the answer is a resounding no.  Doing so will only serve as proof of the condition known as "spinelessness".

CaCO3Girl posted:

Chicago643 posted:

• Like the old HC better than the new HC.
• My kid won't get to play as much.
• Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
• Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.

 

Counterpoint:

- I don't have relationships with the coaches, so whether I like them is immaterial

- My kid will be a starter on the team regardless

- "F-You" kid is a pitcher, mine is not

- I don't have a relationship with the coaches, but I do have opinions on how to run an organization, none of which will ever be shared with one of my son's coaches...ever. I won't even share them with families who also have sons on the team, that just isn't helpful. But an anonymous group of people who have no idea what program I am associated with (except for Joes87 who seems to want to ferret that info out) - fair game for feedback. FWIW, I may have posed this same question if the kid was removed from the team too...it is a good topic for discussion.

Do all pitchers hit on your sons team?

Only a couple with good sticks

Chicago643 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Chicago643 posted:

• Like the old HC better than the new HC.
• My kid won't get to play as much.
• Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
• Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.

 

Counterpoint:

- I don't have relationships with the coaches, so whether I like them is immaterial

- My kid will be a starter on the team regardless

- "F-You" kid is a pitcher, mine is not

- I don't have a relationship with the coaches, but I do have opinions on how to run an organization, none of which will ever be shared with one of my son's coaches...ever. I won't even share them with families who also have sons on the team, that just isn't helpful. But an anonymous group of people who have no idea what program I am associated with (except for Joes87 who seems to want to ferret that info out) - fair game for feedback. FWIW, I may have posed this same question if the kid was removed from the team too...it is a good topic for discussion.

Do all pitchers hit on your sons team?

Only a couple with good sticks

Do you know if this kid hit last year?  If so, do you know if they changed their mind for this year?

I keep coming back to him purposefully ignoring the bunt sign, like he had something to prove.

I just can't get past the kid saying F you to the coach (in the circumstance described in the OP).  Whatever issues the kid may have, including senioritis, can be dealt with separately, but the kid doesn't need to be a part of the program to help him.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Chicago643 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Chicago643 posted:

• Like the old HC better than the new HC.
• My kid won't get to play as much.
• Maybe the kid who is in trouble is really good, and I want my kid to be in his place. If he's kicked off the team, my kid slides into that spot.
• Some parents just aren't ever happy with any coach, and any coach's decisions.

 

Counterpoint:

- I don't have relationships with the coaches, so whether I like them is immaterial

- My kid will be a starter on the team regardless

- "F-You" kid is a pitcher, mine is not

- I don't have a relationship with the coaches, but I do have opinions on how to run an organization, none of which will ever be shared with one of my son's coaches...ever. I won't even share them with families who also have sons on the team, that just isn't helpful. But an anonymous group of people who have no idea what program I am associated with (except for Joes87 who seems to want to ferret that info out) - fair game for feedback. FWIW, I may have posed this same question if the kid was removed from the team too...it is a good topic for discussion.

Do all pitchers hit on your sons team?

Only a couple with good sticks

Do you know if this kid hit last year?  If so, do you know if they changed their mind for this year?

I keep coming back to him purposefully ignoring the bunt sign, like he had something to prove.

was not a hitter last year

Chicago643 posted:

I don't know the legality of it, Joes87, I just know this is what they are doing. It's a club team, using the HS facility, run by HS coaches. If it's illegal, every school in our area is doing it illegally.

As long as it isn't run by the varsity head coach it's "legal."   Most teams are doing these days. 

joes87 posted:

hshuler posted:

joes87 posted:

cabbagedad posted:

 

About a month ago, he called in that he would miss a practice and called late the next.  Very uncharacteristically and against our team policy, he was vague about his reason.  I pulled him out for a "discussion".  I contemplated going full ream or opening it up for him to explain why his commitment level wasn't where his teammates needed it to be.   Thank God I chose the latter.  He went on to explain that an immediate family member was dealing with a serious illness.  I got a call later from one of his parents asking that I keep things confidential to make it easier for the family to get through a very tough time.  So, it has become a very difficult line to walk.  My actions with the player, I'm sure, didn't look strong enough to the team and even to the other coaches.  But I can't explain the rationale behind those actions due to the requested confidentiality of the family.  It's what's below the surface, in this case.  

 

This ...

What a lot of folks not in education don't understand is the external factors that come into play when discipling a player.  Many factors can influence things.  Everything from does the kid have access to food at home to is the kid dealing with a terminal illness to a parent that others don't know about.  These factors can not be discussed with others and at times it may appear that an administrator/coach/teacher, etc.  are taking it easy on the kid.  Lets not forget that these coaches are educators first.  The first question to be answered when discipling a kid, is "whats right for the kid".

 

Okay, I get that some kids have it hard. Very hard! But aren’t all teenagers going through something? And yes, serious illness is not the same as “OMG, I’ve a huge pimple!”  But a kid uncharacteristically, calling out and being late to practices is a looooonnnnggggggg way from “F... you!” IMO. Just not in the same stratosphere.

My life wasn’t easy and neither was it for most of my friends growing up in rural SC but I never witnessed or even heard about someone telling the coach “F.... you!” There’s a whole lotta grey area that you can dance around before you get to that phrase.

I get that we don’t know all the facts but why didn’t he bunt - twice? Because he’s having problem at home just doesn’t seem like the reason. Again, I get it - the kid could be hurting - but are we going to now think that “outside influences” are the only reason that kids do stupid things. Also, what about the other kids on the team who maybe going through tougher circumstances and still listen to and respect authority.

I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit today and can’t think of one scenario where this is acceptable. Sorry! 

Again, this is my opinion and I don’t expect to change anyone’s viewpoint.

 

I get it, and for the most part, and if there is not extenuating circumstances the kid should be booted...

But most folks don't have a clue what some kids are going through.  My wife is an administrator in our local school district.  We live is a wealthy area with schools that are considered some of the top in the country.  In addition our town is consistently named as one of the best places to live/raise a family in the US.  By all accounts its a community where you do not expect many family issues.  The reality is there are things happening to kids every day that schools need to deal with.  Consider this scenario.  Its factual based and applied to this baseball situation, but is not related in anyway to the OPs post.  This type problem is more common then most folks think.

Kid lives in a home with no father and a mother that is a drug addict.  Rotating male role models through the house.  No one sticks around long and none of them are upstanding citizens.  In fact many are a one time thing and sometimes there is more then one of them in the house in a day.  Mother uses them for money and drugs.  Men use the mom for the sex.  She is not a prostitute in the normal sense, but is a junkie.  Many of them abuse her and at times her son.  No food in the house as all the money goes toward drugs.  The only real meals the kid gets is breakfast and lunch at school.

Kid is a smart kid and realizes that the way out of his life is through education, he also enjoys playing baseball.  Wakes up the morning of the incident and finds out that the only constant in his life, his grandmother, has been diagnosed with cancer and has 6 weeks to live.  He heads off to school with our really processing the information.  Shows up at baseball practice that afternoon.  Feels like the coach has put some pressure on him and acts out.  While its directed at the coach it really has nothing to do with the  coach, but rather a misplaced reaction to his current situation.

In many cases the administration and HC know what is going on.  The AC may not and certainly the team would not have a clue.  In fact by law the school can not disclose any of this information to anyone.  As a coach what are you going to do?  You have two options.  Kick the kid off the team and possibility put him back into the poverty/drug cycle.  Or you can give the kid a break and keep him on the team mentoring him and hopefully keep the kid pointed in the right direction.

Again, this is not always the situation but I used it to illustrate the decision coaches have to make at times.  Things are not always black and white, and unless you are one of the directly involved parties you never have all the information.

 

Sometime people need to learn the hard way.  Back in the day we had a SS teacher/football coach. Good guy but a real hard ass.  Had a whole shpeal about a term paper and handing it in on time, no excuses, etc.  Until the day one of his students showed up the day after her mom died to turn in a stupid paper.  He made sure to point out that would be an exception.