Does wearing wrist bands with the signals on them cut down on the missed signals? 5 years ago I’d see 1 or 2 teams a season who did it, but now I’m guessing a third of them do.
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Not sure, but it's obnoxious as hell listening to HS coaches yell out numbers before every pitch.
Nuke83 posted:Not sure, but it's obnoxious as hell listening to HS coaches yell out numbers before every pitch.
My sons HS Coach does it, ugh! After 2 games of it I now sit down the line somewhere so I can’t hear it. Bout to be on year 3 in a few months
We played a team a few years back where the pitcher put his "game card" in his cap. The coach would yell out the numbers, everyone else would do the wrist review and the pitcher would literally take off his cap and stare into it for a few seconds then put it back on his head. Talk about a slow game.
Get used to it they do it in college. But the coaches give signs for the numbers and also helps in preventing stealing signs.
TPM posted:Get used to it they do it in college. But the coaches give signs for the numbers and also helps in preventing stealing signs.
That's what I've seen for the most part, and when the players get used to it, the game just rocks right along.
I would imagine it would cut down missing signals a great deal. I've never used them in baseball (though I did use a number system just no wristbands) I have however used them for many years with a no huddle offense in youth football. Way better than signals but football has built in time to read the wristbands baseball doesn't. I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Stats4Gnats posted:Does wearing wrist bands with the signals on them cut down on the missed signals? 5 years ago I’d see 1 or 2 teams a season who did it, but now I’m guessing a third of them do.
Yes. Very much so. We may have 1 or 2 missed signs a year now tops.
Scotty83 posted:I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Can you explain an example? I'm not sure how to do that, but if it's possible I'd love to hear the explanation.
ironhorse posted:Scotty83 posted:I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Can you explain an example? I'm not sure how to do that, but if it's possible I'd love to hear the explanation.
You just use one number per action. Like 1 for steal with a take. Then change which spot in the order the number with meaning is. Ex. If it's the first number then call out 137. If the second number 317 or third 371. The 1 told them what to do. Depending on the other coach and how the games going sometimes you have to change it a lot some times only once a game. I've had a couple teams have trouble with it at the start of the season. So I had a dry erase board in the dugout only my players could see then every inning write down which action number it would be. In the rare occasion say we had a lot of steals or bunts in an inning the any same number all three times, like 444 or 777, meant move the action number up one. It really doesn't matter if every coach in the district knows 1 means steal. If they gear up for a steal every time you call a 1 then just put a 1 in every number you call just in a nonaction spot in the order.
Its also pretty easy to bait a coach that thinks he has it figured out. I actually got a coach once that got all caught up in it to walk a kid with pitchouts trying to catch a kid stealing lol.
I've used one since highschool. Coach flashes numbers, look at wristband, call the pitch.
Takes about 10 seconds
My sons freshman year he played another HS, and both coaches did the wristguards thing, and every pitch they would call out numbers.
We were hanging out with a dad from the other team who my son had played summer ball when he yelled out...... BINGO!!!! you coaches just called all the numbers on my Bingo card!!
Needless to say everyone the stands started laughing.
We used wristbands and it cuts down on the number of missed signs greatly.
For those of you that think its annoying.....So is watching a coach touch 10 body parts with 2 outs, 2 strikes, and nobody on.
The vast majority of college teams I know will use the wrist band for calling pitches and defensive signals. The coach doesn't yell out he just flashes the numbers example 3 - 2 - 1 and that's it. As far as base runners most I watch still use an indicator and signs. I thought the wrist band deal was going to take over but I'm seeing more go back to traditional signs for baserunners now.
Yelling out numbers the entire game probably got old for these coaches. I know that I found it annoying but to each his own. It may be different for you other people but I am seeing less of it not more. As far as baserunners.
D1catcher posted:I've used one since highschool. Coach flashes numbers, look at wristband, call the pitch.
Takes about 10 seconds
Can you recommend a brand? Also would appreciate your input on any particulars.
Scotty83 posted:ironhorse posted:Scotty83 posted:I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Can you explain an example? I'm not sure how to do that, but if it's possible I'd love to hear the explanation.
You just use one number per action. Like 1 for steal with a take. Then change which spot in the order the number with meaning is. Ex. If it's the first number then call out 137. If the second number 317 or third 371. The 1 told them what to do. Depending on the other coach and how the games going sometimes you have to change it a lot some times only once a game. I've had a couple teams have trouble with it at the start of the season. So I had a dry erase board in the dugout only my players could see then every inning write down which action number it would be. In the rare occasion say we had a lot of steals or bunts in an inning the any same number all three times, like 444 or 777, meant move the action number up one. It really doesn't matter if every coach in the district knows 1 means steal. If they gear up for a steal every time you call a 1 then just put a 1 in every number you call just in a nonaction spot in the order.
Its also pretty easy to bait a coach that thinks he has it figured out. I actually got a coach once that got all caught up in it to walk a kid with pitchouts trying to catch a kid stealing lol.
I gotcha, but doesn't that limit you to only be able to have 10 "things" to put on?
And kids have to memorize those 10?
adbono posted:D1catcher posted:I've used one since highschool. Coach flashes numbers, look at wristband, call the pitch.
Takes about 10 seconds
Can you recommend a brand? Also would appreciate your input on any particulars.
We use Neumann ones now. There's was a weird consolation in the wristband industry apparently a few years ago that made it hard to get anything else. Been happy with them. We give the kids 1-pane wristbands and the coaches have 3-pane wristbands to carry a little more info.
And for the record, we don't yell out numbers. We still use an indicator and spots on the body to represent numbers. Although, with some of our non-honor student kids I've been known to yell them out.
We have used wristbands for 9 years now at the high school level, kids started to not understand hand signs something simple such as touches to the box (touches to chest and stomach). We use own the Zone and for some reason we might miss 2 signs all year. We use the same cards on offense, we have a new card for each game, we use it by never calling the same number twice, it works as we want to hit and run, there are 20 sets of three number sequence that work for hit and run such as 345 the players look down see two letters such as SQ and it tells them its a hit and run. We don't yell numbers and I will even go as far as to say it will take a below average coach and make him better as he now has to think about scenarios before they happen and if a pitch is a ball or strike and the count and possible count and who is on and who is on deck and what the defensive team does and who the pitcher is and how he is throwing. Its not complicated and players get it. We also have quick signs body indicators for times where our numbers dont mean anything or we dont want to give numbers, they are a single touch to the body, such as a nonchalant touch to the nose could be steal.
We use Nuemann wrist bands but the own the zone software and like I said 9 years of using it and yes I learned about it from college coaches. Who use it for offense, pitching and defensive scenarios.
ironhorse posted:And for the record, we don't yell out numbers. We still use an indicator and spots on the body to represent numbers. Although, with some of our non-honor student kids I've been known to yell them out.
True story: I once literally yelled from the third base box, "Tyler!!!!! You are stealing! On the next pitch!" Great kid, understood the signs...he just forgot them between the time he acknowledged them and the actual pitch happened. He was one of those kids that very frequently got caught up watching the game while he was supposed to be playing the game.
(Believe it or not, he was safe on the steal. Defense froze. Probably thinking there was no possible way that the steal was actually on.)
As for the cards: never used them, never liked the shouting out of numbers and whatnot, and just one more thing to have to bring along and keep organized on game day. I totally get that they can be very effective--but I rarely called the pitches (I had a catcher for that), and never felt that the defense needed to be so complicated that a few simple gestures (signs) couldn't suffice. Same with offense. If I really needed to do something exotic, I could just ask Blue for time...
-42
4T2 posted:True story: I once literally yelled from the third base box, "Tyler!!!!! You are stealing! On the next pitch!" Great kid, understood the signs...he just forgot them between the time he acknowledged them and the actual pitch happened. He was one of those kids that very frequently got caught up watching the game while he was supposed to be playing the game.
(Believe it or not, he was safe on the steal. Defense froze. Probably thinking there was no possible way that the steal was actually on.)
...
OK, slight side-step from the OP topic but 42's story reminded me of a story I probably told here before...
Moons ago, coaching a youth game (12's/13's ??), I have a player who is the real life version of Forrest Gump. Very animated, thick glasses, very smart but very not, wore the pants REALLY high, the running form was dead ringer for Gump.
He had to use the restroom mid-game, which was out beyond CF (no fence) at a school. He is making his way back and is due up to bat. Everyone yelling for him to hurry, he does his patented sprint straight through the field... arms pumping high, belt buckle somewhere near the chest, glasses bouncing - all fans, players, umps busting up. He makes his way to the batters box and catches his breath. I am coaching third and give him the bunt sign. Indicator was second sign. He steps out of the box and motions in a very animated way... to make sure he got the sign right... with wide eyes and an inquisitive look, he flashes two fingers (second sign) and then squares toward me, holding perfect bunting form, in effect confirming with me via his secret code but, at the same time, telling the whole world clearly what he was about to do.
15 years later, every kid and coach from that team and every parent that was at that game still laughs at that five minutes in time that he gave us. My guess is he's probably a rocket scientist for NASA now.
ironhorse posted:Scotty83 posted:ironhorse posted:Scotty83 posted:I don't understand the wrist bands in baseball. A number system that can't be figured out by the other coach is easy enough without the wristbands.
Can you explain an example? I'm not sure how to do that, but if it's possible I'd love to hear the explanation.
You just use one number per action. Like 1 for steal with a take. Then change which spot in the order the number with meaning is. Ex. If it's the first number then call out 137. If the second number 317 or third 371. The 1 told them what to do. Depending on the other coach and how the games going sometimes you have to change it a lot some times only once a game. I've had a couple teams have trouble with it at the start of the season. So I had a dry erase board in the dugout only my players could see then every inning write down which action number it would be. In the rare occasion say we had a lot of steals or bunts in an inning the any same number all three times, like 444 or 777, meant move the action number up one. It really doesn't matter if every coach in the district knows 1 means steal. If they gear up for a steal every time you call a 1 then just put a 1 in every number you call just in a nonaction spot in the order.
Its also pretty easy to bait a coach that thinks he has it figured out. I actually got a coach once that got all caught up in it to walk a kid with pitchouts trying to catch a kid stealing lol.
I gotcha, but doesn't that limit you to only be able to have 10 "things" to put on?
And kids have to memorize those 10?
Yes but I don't like to do that much micromanaging in a game so I've never had to use more than 9.
They memorize it pretty easy during the first few practices easier than signals anyway. I also use the same system for calling pitches so the catchers and pitchers have to learn three sets (offensive play, pitch type, pitch location) but it's never been a problem.
Also I signal with my hands I don't yell out the number. I never liked that.
I use a number system for pitches but not the cards. We use four numbers and we will pick which of the four numbers is for the pitch and which for the location. I can easily change it during an inning if we think someone might be picking it up. There are two numbers for each pitch so not the same number over and over and we mix in the similar numbers for the others. Makes the game so much faster than some guy touching his nose ear and chin after every pitch.
As to why the pitcher may be looking in his hat is because some umpires will not allow the pitcher to wear the wristband on his arm or his belt. We used wristbands for defense but had umpires who would not let them wear them so they had to stick it in their pocket or put it in their cap.
I wonder how many colleges utilize pitches called by the coach (including wrist bands) compared to catcher called pitches.
My son (15/u) typically calls his own games and even when playing for a team the first time, its not long before the coach feels comfortable letting him go on his own.
If you have an intelligent catcher next to a catcher who never has called his own games, I guess wrist bands level the playing field. Not sure how I feel about that since I know my son works hard at calling a good game and picking the brains of his coaches to improve at it even more.
Kevin A posted:I wonder how many colleges utilize pitches called by the coach (including wrist bands) compared to catcher called pitches.
My son (15/u) typically calls his own games and even when playing for a team the first time, its not long before the coach feels comfortable letting him go on his own.
If you have an intelligent catcher next to a catcher who never has called his own games, I guess wrist bands level the playing field. Not sure how I feel about that since I know my son works hard at calling a good game and picking the brains of his coaches to improve at it even more.
Well, Kevin A, you're sure to get the thumbs up from the opening poster, Stats, on the catcher calling his own game (one of his favorite agenda topics) but reality is that it is far more common for pitches to be called from the dugout throughout HS and college. Even at the pro level, when catchers do call pitches, it is only after they have gone through the books and trends on hitters before the game, often with the influence of the P coach. There are several threads you can search where the pros and cons are discussed at great length. It is a blast for a catcher who is so inclined so tell your son to enjoy it while he can. It is likely to not always be the case.
cabbagedad posted:Kevin A posted:I wonder how many colleges utilize pitches called by the coach (including wrist bands) compared to catcher called pitches.
My son (15/u) typically calls his own games and even when playing for a team the first time, its not long before the coach feels comfortable letting him go on his own.
If you have an intelligent catcher next to a catcher who never has called his own games, I guess wrist bands level the playing field. Not sure how I feel about that since I know my son works hard at calling a good game and picking the brains of his coaches to improve at it even more.
Well, Kevin A, you're sure to get the thumbs up from the opening poster, Stats, on the catcher calling his own game (one of his favorite agenda topics) but reality is that it is far more common for pitches to be called from the dugout throughout HS and college. Even at the pro level, when catchers do call pitches, it is only after they have gone through the books and trends on hitters before the game, often with the influence of the P coach. There are several threads you can search where the pros and cons are discussed at great length. It is a blast for a catcher who is so inclined so tell your son to enjoy it while he can. It is likely to not always be the case.
I will see Cabbages comment, and raise the stakes. While what I'm about to say may not be popular with some, but I have found it to be true. Very, very few HS (or younger) catchers have any idea how to call a game. Calling a game is an art form and it's not the same for every pitcher. It's not the same for the SAME pitcher every time out. It takes years of experience to become adept at it. The more competitive the program (whether in HS or college) the less inclined the coaching staff will be to having anyone call pitches but themselves.
Straight from a College Coach:
Regarding calling the game – I call it, not the catcher. Ultimately the pitcher has the right to shake any pitch so if that’s the case, I think I should make the recommended pitch instead of the catcher. It just doesn’t make sense to me to have a lesser baseball person make suggestions.
Wales posted:Straight from a College Coach:
Regarding calling the game – I call it, not the catcher. Ultimately the pitcher has the right to shake any pitch so if that’s the case, I think I should make the recommended pitch instead of the catcher. It just doesn’t make sense to me to have a lesser baseball person make suggestions.
Exactly
Wales posted: Straight from a College Coach:
Regarding calling the game – I call it, not the catcher. Ultimately the pitcher has the right to shake any pitch so if that’s the case, I think I should make the recommended pitch instead of the catcher. It just doesn’t make sense to me to have a lesser baseball person make suggestions.
Of course if you want to call the pitches, it’s entirely your prerogative. But I wonder if you’ve ever tested whether the opponent’s performance is better or worse if your catchers called the pitches or if you did, or seen any kind of study at all that proves what you believe is true.
Be that as it may, what is so complicated about calling pitches that you can’t teach it to the catchers? I’m not trying to start an argument or trying to be derisive in any way. I honestly fail to see what’s so difficult about it that with a little practice a catcher can’t do just as good at it as a coach who has a million other things on his mind, without nearly the advantage of seeing and feeling the pitches.
Stats4Gnats posted:Wales posted: Straight from a College Coach:
Regarding calling the game – I call it, not the catcher. Ultimately the pitcher has the right to shake any pitch so if that’s the case, I think I should make the recommended pitch instead of the catcher. It just doesn’t make sense to me to have a lesser baseball person make suggestions.
Of course if you want to call the pitches, it’s entirely your prerogative. But I wonder if you’ve ever tested whether the opponent’s performance is better or worse if your catchers called the pitches or if you did, or seen any kind of study at all that proves what you believe is true.
Be that as it may, what is so complicated about calling pitches that you can’t teach it to the catchers? I’m not trying to start an argument or trying to be derisive in any way. I honestly fail to see what’s so difficult about it that with a little practice a catcher can’t do just as good at it as a coach who has a million other things on his mind, without nearly the advantage of seeing and feeling the pitches.
Stats, you know you can go through the past threads on the topic. You were right there in the middle of them, at least all the ones that I recall. The same reasons that applied then apply now. If you didn't buy it before, you are not going to buy it now.
I was going to say something about not veering from the OP but it's your thread so never mind. 
cabbagedad posted: Stats, you know you can go through the past threads on the topic. You were right there in the middle of them, at least all the ones that I recall. The same reasons that applied then apply now. If you didn't buy it before, you are not going to buy it now.
I was going to say something about not veering from the OP but it's your thread so never mind.
Don’t blame me for veering, blame KEVIN A. 
You’re considered an expert, so at what point in your baseball “career” did you become expert at calling pitches?
You know me. I make no pretense about wanting to see some kind of verifiable proof before I accept much of anything. To me, unless there’s some kind of proof beyond anecdotal, all we’re talking about is myth.
But any “argument” aside, why can’t catchers be taught how to call pitches? Is it really so difficult that it takes upwards of 10 years to learn?
Yes
Pitcher son in HS often times didn't have the coaches call pitches, especially in travel ball. The HC thought that it was a lesson in learning, you make a mistake, you guys own it.
In college, the stakes get higher. It's about winning and being familiar with the competition. It's the p coaches job to know the hitters, a new coach sometimes has to watch endless hours of video of the competitions hitters to know what to pitch or not pitch to them. Catchers have enough to do with bull pens, hitting practice, and oh yeah, don't forget they have classes and schoolwork. Ever wonder why the same programs seem to be successful? It's because the coaches make it their business to know the other players in their conference, year after year. That's what this game is about at the higher levels, know your opponent or he will beat you. Thats why teams scout one another!!!
In pro ball,beginning at the minor league level, catchers who make it to that level usually can remember each hitter, and they study charts with pitchers as well, and pitchers watch the opposing hitters on their off days and many take notes. Its a lot of work.
And if you ever wondered why some make it and others don't, that's it. Its not because of guess work. And when they make it to the top, they get to call their own stuff!!!
Stats doesn't get it, he never did and never will.
Can you teach a catcher to call pitches, you can. However, they have to have the desire to spend the time in the classroom and on the field learning the art because that is exactly what it is. You are asking a HS catcher, that take 6 classes a day(some being AP), practicing, in the weight room, and has homework to learn how to call pitches for 4-5 different pitchers and then mix in if the kid is playing travel ball you are now asking him to learn even more pitchers. That is a lot of time this kid has to spend learning to call pitches. To me, it is not they can't learn it is they must have the burning desire to do it.
adbono posted:I will see Cabbages comment, and raise the stakes. While what I'm about to say may not be popular with some, but I have found it to be true. Very, very few HS (or younger) catchers have any idea how to call a game. Calling a game is an art form and it's not the same for every pitcher. It's not the same for the SAME pitcher every time out. It takes years of experience to become adept at it. The more competitive the program (whether in HS or college) the less inclined the coaching staff will be to having anyone call pitches but themselves.
Agreed. And to raise it even further, at my son's HS the pitchers don't shake off the PC's call, ever. I guess they could, but I've never seen it.
Funny story. This past summer my son's travel team played in a high-level tournament on a college campus on the other side of the country. The first game the coaches let the catchers call the pitches. The second catcher of the game came in for the 6th, and my son came in to pitch the 6th and 7th against a good team coached by a well known HSBBW poster. Tight game. The catcher -- who I'm sure never called pitches for his high school -- called 35 fastballs in a row, knee high, outside corner. In between innings my son asked him why he was calling the same pitch over and over, and he apologized but then did the same thing in the 7th. My son shook him off twice in the 7th, so the result was 33 fastballs and 2 breaking balls. For the rest of the tournament the coach called the pitches.
adbono posted: I will see Cabbages comment, and raise the stakes. While what I'm about to say may not be popular with some, but I have found it to be true. Very, very few HS (or younger) catchers have any idea how to call a game. Calling a game is an art form and it's not the same for every pitcher. It's not the same for the SAME pitcher every time out. It takes years of experience to become adept at it. The more competitive the program (whether in HS or college) the less inclined the coaching staff will be to having anyone call pitches but themselves.
I’m not trying to say anything different, but I am asking a few questions I’ve never seen answered with anything other than opinion. Is every person calling pitches in the dugout superior to every catcher not being allowed to do it? How is pitch calling superiority measured? How does a catcher prove he’s ready to call pitches?
2019Dad posted:…Funny story. This past summer my son's travel team played in a high-level tournament on a college campus on the other side of the country. The first game the coaches let the catchers call the pitches. The second catcher of the game came in for the 6th, and my son came in to pitch the 6th and 7th against a good team coached by a well known HSBBW poster. Tight game. The catcher -- who I'm sure never called pitches for his high school -- called 35 fastballs in a row, knee high, outside corner. In between innings my son asked him why he was calling the same pitch over and over, and he apologized but then did the same thing in the 7th. My son shook him off twice in the 7th, so the result was 33 fastballs and 2 breaking balls. For the rest of the tournament the coach called the pitches.
When I hear stories like that, I wonder WTF is wrong with the coach? Unless he’s totally oblivious he had to notice the same pitch being throw every time. If he didn’t call time and have a conference to find out what was going on, he was either not paying attention at all or trying to prove some unknown point. If a coach doesn’t call the same pitch 66 out of 70 times, why on earth wouldn’t he tell the catcher to mix it up a little?
Obviously the 1st catcher did pretty well if it was a tight game in the 6th. Did your son throw all 35 pitches knee high and on the outside corner? It sounds like your son had total control of the pitches thrown, so why didn’t he shake off more pitches?
I’m sorry, but to me it sounds like a who lot of people weren’t doing their jobs very well.
Stats4Gnats posted:2019Dad posted:…Funny story. This past summer my son's travel team played in a high-level tournament on a college campus on the other side of the country. The first game the coaches let the catchers call the pitches. The second catcher of the game came in for the 6th, and my son came in to pitch the 6th and 7th against a good team coached by a well known HSBBW poster. Tight game. The catcher -- who I'm sure never called pitches for his high school -- called 35 fastballs in a row, knee high, outside corner. In between innings my son asked him why he was calling the same pitch over and over, and he apologized but then did the same thing in the 7th. My son shook him off twice in the 7th, so the result was 33 fastballs and 2 breaking balls. For the rest of the tournament the coach called the pitches.
When I hear stories like that, I wonder
It sounds like your son had total control of the pitches thrown, so why didn’t he shake off more pitches?
Yeah, but he's used to pitching for his HS program where pitchers don't shake off. So it had to get really, really egregious before he shook off a pitch. And coach did change for all remaining games (took over the pitch calling). In any event, I thought it was funny, in a mind-boggling way.
P.S. -- just to clarify, it was 35 pitches over two innings. The same pitch was called every time but with two shakeoffs it ended up as 33 fastballs, 2 breaking balls.
Stats4Gnats posted:
I’m not trying to say anything different, but I am asking a few questions I’ve never seen answered with anything other than opinion. Is every person calling pitches in the dugout superior to every catcher not being allowed to do it? How is pitch calling superiority measured? How does a catcher prove he’s ready to call pitches?
I guess superiority could be debated in some cases, but in cases with coaches who have been coaching awhile I would argue that the people in the dugout are going to be "superior" compared to the teenage catcher.
More important to me though is knowledge of opponent and access to information. I'm the head coach. I have a pitching coach who calls pitches. We'll have a chart on every hitter we've faced in district over the last few years. We'll talk about hitters before the game, and have that book on hand throughout the game, charting pitches thrown and results.
It would be extremely rare for a kid to be able to match that, all while dealing with all kinds of other stimuli that he has to process throughout a game, armed only with a teenage brain.
ironhorse posted:Stats4Gnats posted:
I’m not trying to say anything different, but I am asking a few questions I’ve never seen answered with anything other than opinion. Is every person calling pitches in the dugout superior to every catcher not being allowed to do it? How is pitch calling superiority measured? How does a catcher prove he’s ready to call pitches?
I guess superiority could be debated in some cases, but in cases with coaches who have been coaching awhile I would argue that the people in the dugout are going to be "superior" compared to the teenage catcher.
More important to me though is knowledge of opponent and access to information. I'm the head coach. I have a pitching coach who calls pitches. We'll have a chart on every hitter we've faced in district over the last few years. We'll talk about hitters before the game, and have that book on hand throughout the game, charting pitches thrown and results.
It would be extremely rare for a kid to be able to match that, all while dealing with all kinds of other stimuli that he has to process throughout a game, armed only with a teenage brain.
Amen, brother! Well said.
Stats4Gnats posted:Does wearing wrist bands with the signals on them cut down on the missed signals? 5 years ago I’d see 1 or 2 teams a season who did it, but now I’m guessing a third of them do.
yes. Both ways have pros and cons, but the biggest benefit we got was that there was zero learning curve. So the kids coming in late from basketball and soccer got a card and were good to go.
2019Dad posted: Yeah, but he's used to pitching for his HS program where pitchers don't shake off. So it had to get really, really egregious before he shook off a pitch. And coach did change for all remaining games (took over the pitch calling). In any event, I thought it was funny, in a mind-boggling way.
My son pitched for a HS coach who removed him more than once for simply shaking off a sign, and he threw a couple hundred innings in that program. But every time he pitched for a team he was allowed to shake off pitches, he did.
P.S. -- just to clarify, it was 35 pitches over two innings. The same pitch was called every time but with two shakeoffs it ended up as 33 fastballs, 2 breaking balls.
Thanx for the clarification. Before I just assumed he was getting pounded all over the place and didn’t ask how he did, but now I’d like to know how the other team did, keeping in mind they were a far above average team playing for a far above average coach.
ironhorse posted: I guess superiority could be debated in some cases, but in cases with coaches who have been coaching awhile I would argue that the people in the dugout are going to be "superior" compared to the teenage catcher.
More important to me though is knowledge of opponent and access to information. I'm the head coach. I have a pitching coach who calls pitches. We'll have a chart on every hitter we've faced in district over the last few years. We'll talk about hitters before the game, and have that book on hand throughout the game, charting pitches thrown and results.
It would be extremely rare for a kid to be able to match that, all while dealing with all kinds of other stimuli that he has to process throughout a game, armed only with a teenage brain.
A question. I’m sure you play teams other than district opponents, and if it’s like us, it’s about half. So for those players and teams you don’t have good info on, what’s the advantage to not allowing the catchers to learn their trade?
I have to say, while I admire what you do for preparation, you certainly aren’t the “average” HS coach I’ve run into, and I’ve run into a lot of them. In fact, you’re prolly at worst among the top 5 as far as game prep that I’ve come in any kind of contact with.
I understand the reluctance to give the reins to some inexperienced kid. But there’s a big difference between a 14YO Soph catcher just called up to the V, and an 18 YO Sr who’s been the starting catcher for 3 years. What I’m saying is, every situation is different.
Maybe I oversimplify the game some times, but calling pitches is like calling plays in football.....they are all designed to work if you execute. I try to teach pitchers and catchers what to look for in hitter's swing, stance, charts, etc. and pitch accordingly. I may call 5 or 6 pitches out of a hundred during a game.
Stats4Gnats posted:
I have to say, while I admire what you do for preparation, you certainly aren’t the “average” HS coach I’ve run into, and I’ve run into a lot of them. In fact, you’re prolly at worst among the top 5 as far as game prep that I’ve come in any kind of contact with.
Well then there are only about 3 left because we do the same thing. Our entire staff spend time scouting opponents and have extensive charting system on all players we see.
Stats4Gnats posted:2019Dad posted: Yeah, but he's used to pitching for his HS program where pitchers don't shake off. So it had to get really, really egregious before he shook off a pitch. And coach did change for all remaining games (took over the pitch calling). In any event, I thought it was funny, in a mind-boggling way.
My son pitched for a HS coach who removed him more than once for simply shaking off a sign, and he threw a couple hundred innings in that program. But every time he pitched for a team he was allowed to shake off pitches, he did.
P.S. -- just to clarify, it was 35 pitches over two innings. The same pitch was called every time but with two shakeoffs it ended up as 33 fastballs, 2 breaking balls.
Thanx for the clarification. Before I just assumed he was getting pounded all over the place and didn’t ask how he did, but now I’d like to know how the other team did, keeping in mind they were a far above average team playing for a far above average coach.
They won. IIRC, it was a 2 run game when he entered and he gave up 1 run, and got a K with a runner in scoring position to end the game. The catcher did have a CS, which helped.
And I got a chance to talk afterward for 15 minutes with the HSBBW member/coach, which was a bonus.
IEBSBL posted: Well then there are only about 3 left because we do the same thing. Our entire staff spend time scouting opponents and have extensive charting system on all players we see.
Well, maybe I’m wrong and of the 40,000 or so HS coaches out there, all but the couple hundred I’ve seen are doing it. 
You must have some great assistants and a voluminous database.
Stats4Gnats posted:ironhorse posted: I guess superiority could be debated in some cases, but in cases with coaches who have been coaching awhile I would argue that the people in the dugout are going to be "superior" compared to the teenage catcher.
More important to me though is knowledge of opponent and access to information. I'm the head coach. I have a pitching coach who calls pitches. We'll have a chart on every hitter we've faced in district over the last few years. We'll talk about hitters before the game, and have that book on hand throughout the game, charting pitches thrown and results.
It would be extremely rare for a kid to be able to match that, all while dealing with all kinds of other stimuli that he has to process throughout a game, armed only with a teenage brain.
A question. I’m sure you play teams other than district opponents, and if it’s like us, it’s about half. So for those players and teams you don’t have good info on, what’s the advantage to not allowing the catchers to learn their trade?
I have to say, while I admire what you do for preparation, you certainly aren’t the “average” HS coach I’ve run into, and I’ve run into a lot of them. In fact, you’re prolly at worst among the top 5 as far as game prep that I’ve come in any kind of contact with.
I understand the reluctance to give the reins to some inexperienced kid. But there’s a big difference between a 14YO Soph catcher just called up to the V, and an 18 YO Sr who’s been the starting catcher for 3 years. What I’m saying is, every situation is different.
We have 16 district games, but before that we'll have 8-10 tournament games, etc., where at times we'll definitely let the catcher call some innings. Early in the year it can depend on the pitcher and what we're trying to see from him. If there's something we're working on that isn't easily communicated to the catcher (example of easy being "call a lot of changeups"), we may still call them, just depends on several factors.
Our catcher this year will be in his 3rd year starting, although his baseball IQ is lower than that, so we'll give him a little more free reign.
Stats4Gnats posted:IEBSBL posted: Well then there are only about 3 left because we do the same thing. Our entire staff spend time scouting opponents and have extensive charting system on all players we see.
Well, maybe I’m wrong and of the 40,000 or so HS coaches out there, all but the couple hundred I’ve seen are doing it.
You must have some great assistants and a voluminous database.
I have Manilla Envelopes full of old charts. I usually purge them after 4 years and yes I have great assistants.
IEBSBL posted: You must have some great assistants and a voluminous database.
I have Manilla Envelopes full of old charts. I usually purge them after 4 years and yes I have great assistants.
Gosh! Why haven’t you “automated” you’re data? You’re throwing away a treasure of information, not to mention playing with paper is infinitely less efficient than being able to press a button on a computer.
Stats4Gnats posted:tomated” you’re data? You’re throwing away a treasure of information, not to mention playing with paper is infinitely less efficient than being able to press a button on a computer.
But paper never malfunctions during a game!! 
Stats4Gnats posted:Gosh! Why haven’t you “automated” you’re data? You’re throwing away a treasure of information, not to mention playing with paper is infinitely less efficient than being able to press a button on a computer.
These are all spray charts and pitch sequencing charts. When I am doing charts I need the information now and in a certain manner and dealing with a computer takes to long and can't give it to me in the manner that I need it in. If you know of a way to change this I would be willing to listen.
PS...IronHorse is right. My charts have never crashed. (HAHAHA)
IEBSBL posted: These are all spray charts and pitch sequencing charts. When I am doing charts I need the information now and in a certain manner and dealing with a computer takes to long and can't give it to me in the manner that I need it in. If you know of a way to change this I would be willing to listen.
All I can say is, if you can do it with a paper and pencil and can define what you want, a computer can do it faster.
Spray charts are pretty simple. Pitch sequencing charts are something else again because I don’t know what you’re talking about. Can you give an example?
PS...IronHorse is right. My charts have never crashed. (HAHAHA)
No doubt. There’s certainly something to be said for having real pieces of paper with real writing on them. But there’s also something to be said for being able to find something in milliseconds.
Stats4Gnats posted:All I can say is, if you can do it with a paper and pencil and can define what you want, a computer can do it faster.
Spray charts are pretty simple. Pitch sequencing charts are something else again because I don’t know what you’re talking about. Can you give an example?
In other words what pitch gets thrown in what counts and what happened on the pitch.
No doubt. There’s certainly something to be said for having real pieces of paper with real writing on them. But there’s also something to be said for being able to find something in milliseconds.
I don't disagree with your assessment but all I am doing is drawing a line with a pen, and writing in what happened in a column.
My apologies if the spirited debate has gone away from the OP question. I was just curious for a number of reasons. I know there are pitchers who are ready to go with their next pitch before the batter is even back in the box. Having signals come in, catcher's translate and then present the signal seems to be a hurdle for a pitcher who enjoys working fast. I would presume the catcher would still have to work with an indicator to keep base runners off balance...
When talking with my 2020 and why he prefers to call the games he said that when he gets to batters or situations where he wants to work backwards, the coach would seldom do that. He knows what pitches are truly working for the pitcher, knows what the ump is giving or not giving. And in the end he wants the responsibility to be 50-50. He has to call the pitch and then receive/frame and block and the pitcher has to throw the right pitch and hit his target.
Since the higher up you go , the responsibility is greater, guess that is why coaches leave the decision making with themselves if their job can be on the line.
We have played with teams where the coaches are clueless (nothing more than a well intentioned father) and then played for a coach who made it to AAA and was a AA HOF for the Phils. He was a catcher too and he felt his job was to teach his catchers how to handle pitchers. He really trusted his catchers.
There has been a few where the coach, for the most part, isn't skilled and we have had issues with my son having a negative reaction. Essentially if he thinks your full of crap, he does what he has to do. And YES , I know its something that needs to change......Nothing new you can advise on that..
IEBSBL posted: In other words what pitch gets thrown in what counts and what happened on the pitch.
Mebbe it’s because I’m thinking more in terms of what happens for the group rather than what happens for an individual player, but I honestly don’t see much of a use for how to pitch an individual hitter from that information. However, I can see a use for evaluating pitchers using it.
Please see attachment.
I don't disagree with your assessment but all I am doing is drawing a line with a pen, and writing in what happened in a column.
I understand that, and it’s what most people would do. My point is, it’s really an inefficient way to store or retrieve data.
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I your attachments there were 6 outs recorded. Where were the outs recorded at i.e. 4-3, F6, L8? Did the hitter swing at a Breaking Ball in the dirt, or a elevated fastball? Did he take a first pitch fastball or swing at it? All this is information we use to A) Position our fielders and B) Call pitches. Yes you can compose raw data and number on a spread sheet and there is a lot of value in that. We do some data base work at the end of every season. Game to game though I don't know if your data base can replicate what I can do on in game basis. If it can I would love to know how.
Kevin A posted:My apologies if the spirited debate has gone away from the OP question. I was just curious for a number of reasons. I know there are pitchers who are ready to go with their next pitch before the batter is even back in the box. Having signals come in, catcher's translate and then present the signal seems to be a hurdle for a pitcher who enjoys working fast. I would presume the catcher would still have to work with an indicator to keep base runners off balance...
When talking with my 2020 and why he prefers to call the games he said that when he gets to batters or situations where he wants to work backwards, the coach would seldom do that. He knows what pitches are truly working for the pitcher, knows what the ump is giving or not giving. And in the end he wants the responsibility to be 50-50. He has to call the pitch and then receive/frame and block and the pitcher has to throw the right pitch and hit his target.
Since the higher up you go , the responsibility is greater, guess that is why coaches leave the decision making with themselves if their job can be on the line.
We have played with teams where the coaches are clueless (nothing more than a well intentioned father) and then played for a coach who made it to AAA and was a AA HOF for the Phils. He was a catcher too and he felt his job was to teach his catchers how to handle pitchers. He really trusted his catchers.
There has been a few where the coach, for the most part, isn't skilled and we have had issues with my son having a negative reaction. Essentially if he thinks your full of crap, he does what he has to do. And YES , I know its something that needs to change......Nothing new you can advise on that..
This makes me think. Why isn't anyone advocating for the pitcher to call his own pitches? Everyone is debating the pitching coach and catcher. Why isn't there conversation about the guy who is actually throwing the pitch?
Kevin A posted:My apologies if the spirited debate has gone away from the OP question. I was just curious for a number of reasons. I know there are pitchers who are ready to go with their next pitch before the batter is even back in the box. Having signals come in, catcher's translate and then present the signal seems to be a hurdle for a pitcher who enjoys working fast. I would presume the catcher would still have to work with an indicator to keep base runners off balance...
When talking with my 2020 and why he prefers to call the games he said that when he gets to batters or situations where he wants to work backwards, the coach would seldom do that. He knows what pitches are truly working for the pitcher, knows what the ump is giving or not giving. And in the end he wants the responsibility to be 50-50. He has to call the pitch and then receive/frame and block and the pitcher has to throw the right pitch and hit his target.
Since the higher up you go , the responsibility is greater, guess that is why coaches leave the decision making with themselves if their job can be on the line.
We have played with teams where the coaches are clueless (nothing more than a well intentioned father) and then played for a coach who made it to AAA and was a AA HOF for the Phils. He was a catcher too and he felt his job was to teach his catchers how to handle pitchers. He really trusted his catchers.
There has been a few where the coach, for the most part, isn't skilled and we have had issues with my son having a negative reaction. Essentially if he thinks your full of crap, he does what he has to do. And YES , I know its something that needs to change......Nothing new you can advise on that..
No need to apologize. A thread that morphs shows the readers are thinking.
Truth is, there are strong opinions about calling pitches, and not much proof substantiating any of them. That makes it frustrating for players like your boy and parents like yourself because it seems a lot like luck and hoping that whoever’s calling pitches in the system you’re in, knows what they’re doing.
Personally, I don’t think it makes all that much difference, but I’d like to see the pitcher throwing pitches he has confidence in.
I also keep a book of every team we play. Before the game, I put the former pitching stats and results on my sheet. I talk to my pitcher and catcher after each inning. I would rather my catcher use his spare time becoming a better hitter or student than having to memorize the batters for the other team. I give them a little ability to shake off but not much. I tell them talk to me and you won't have to shake me off much. Plus I know very few college catchers who call their own pitches so why prepare them for something they are probably not going to do. They have a job and I have a job.
PitchingFan posted: I also keep a book of every team we play. Before the game, I put the former pitching stats and results on my sheet. …
What “pitching stats” and “results” do you put on your sheet? I keep some fairly detailed stats myself our HC might find it useful to have.
Stats4Gnats posted:PitchingFan posted: I also keep a book of every team we play. Before the game, I put the former pitching stats and results on my sheet. …
What “pitching stats” and “results” do you put on your sheet? I keep some fairly detailed stats myself our HC might find it useful to have.
We do something very similar if not the same. We are looking specifically looking at the following counts.....0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-2. We also look at the following situations when the pitcher throws a FB for strike 1/Ball 1, what does he follow it up with. When the pitcher throws BB for strike 1/ball1 what does he follow that up with.
A good handout on pitch calling I've had for a while. I was too lazy to re-type it so I hope it's readable.
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IEBSBL posted: We do something very similar if not the same. We are looking specifically looking at the following counts.....0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-2. We also look at the following situations when the pitcher throws a FB for strike 1/Ball 1, what does he follow it up with. When the pitcher throws BB for strike 1/ball1 what does he follow that up with.
We are talking about the opponent pitchers aren’t we? Do you track the pitchers as individuals, team, or both?
What’s significant about those 4 counts out of the 12 possible counts?
Let’s see if I have this right. One of your hitters is up and the 1st pitch he gets is a FB for ball 1. Now you look at your “chart” and see in that situation, that pitcher follows up with a FB 70% of the time. What do you do with that information?
Sit fastball and piss on it if it's a strike.
Stats4Gnats posted:IEBSBL posted: We do something very similar if not the same. We are looking specifically looking at the following counts.....0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-2. We also look at the following situations when the pitcher throws a FB for strike 1/Ball 1, what does he follow it up with. When the pitcher throws BB for strike 1/ball1 what does he follow that up with.
We are talking about the opponent pitchers aren’t we? Do you track the pitchers as individuals, team, or both?
What’s significant about those 4 counts out of the 12 possible counts?
Let’s see if I have this right. One of your hitters is up and the 1st pitch he gets is a FB for ball 1. Now you look at your “chart” and see in that situation, that pitcher follows up with a FB 70% of the time. What do you do with that information?
Out of the 12 possible we know that a lot of them are specific pitch counts, i.e. 3-0, 3-1, 2-0 are fastball counts. These specific counts are counts in which multiple pitches can be thrown based of the pitcher himself or the pitching coach. A hitter can not have 12 counts rolling around in his head so we try to drop it down. 0-2 we include just so we identify those pitchers that like to elevate a fastball or bury pitchers consistently in a 0-2 count.
In regards to your scenario Ironhorse beat me to it. Sit Fastball and piss on it.
We track every pitch as to the pitch and location called and whether the pitcher hit his spot. We then track what the batter did. I use this information to call the pitch and location. No way I would ask a high school kid or expect him to keep this information. I put on the sheet who was pitching and then transfer it over before the next game so I have a starting point and keep it in mind with what happens during that game.
Some times it is useless if you pitched a slow righty the last game and are now pitching a lefty with movement and speed but it does give you tendencies like if they swing at first pitches or don't like pitches outside or inside or hate curveballs. it will also give you tendencies such as some coaches do not allow their hitters to swing at offspeed until they get two strikes called on them. We will use that to our advantage and pitch a kid who has good offspeed and can throw it consistently for strikes.
Tracking your pitcher and the opponents pitchers helps you understand tendencies and provides information for helping make decisions.
IEBSBL posted: Out of the 12 possible we know that a lot of them are specific pitch counts, i.e. 3-0, 3-1, 2-0 are fastball counts. These specific counts are counts in which multiple pitches can be thrown based of the pitcher himself or the pitching coach. A hitter can not have 12 counts rolling around in his head so we try to drop it down. 0-2 we include just so we identify those pitchers that like to elevate a fastball or bury pitchers consistently in a 0-2 count.
In regards to your scenario Ironhorse beat me to it. Sit Fastball and piss on it.
Since I don’t chart pitches I have no idea about what’s really taking place on supposed FB counts. Can you say what percentage of pitches are FBs on each count?
I’m not seein’ how logically multiple pitches might be thrown on those counts more than counts where the pitcher is ahead rather than the hitter. It seems to me just the opposite would be true.
Rather than to deal with counts, why not just say counts where the pitcher is behind by 2 or more is a FB count?
From the sounds of it, you’re keeping track by individual pitchers. WHEW! We faced 56 different pitchers last season. That’s a lot of paper when you look at 3-4 years. And then all that info needs to be collated somehow. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to pull useful data from all that paper.
Stats4Gnats posted:
Since I don’t chart pitches I have no idea about what’s really taking place on supposed FB counts. Can you say what percentage of pitches are FBs on each count?
Ever pitcher is different but if I had to break down and individual pitcher, yes I could tell you the percentages of pitches he threw on any given day. If you are asking me an in general. When I say what is happening on supposed FB counts I am sure you understand and agree that on 3-0, 3-1, 2-0 counts the vast majority of pitches thrown are FB's. I would venture to guess that 90% plus are FB's.
I’m not seein’ how logically multiple pitches might be thrown on those counts more than counts where the pitcher is ahead rather than the hitter. It seems to me just the opposite would be true.
From a coaching standpoint the more a pitcher tips the count in his favor the more pitchers throw off speed.
Rather than to deal with counts, why not just say counts where the pitcher is behind by 2 or more is a FB count?
I don't want my players to have to stop and do math during an AB. LOL
From the sounds of it, you’re keeping track by individual pitchers. WHEW! We faced 56 different pitchers last season. That’s a lot of paper when you look at 3-4 years. And then all that info needs to be collated somehow. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to pull useful data from all that paper.
It is 1 sheet per game and we indicate on it when the pitcher has been changed so we played 30 games last year and its 30 pages. To be honest it is super easy for me to break down a pitching chart. I can do a full count percentage scenario in under 5 minutes. if we are are talking about what I give my hitters its less. Keep in mind that the only guaranteed count that a pitcher will throw every AB is 0-0. After that the counts begin to dwindle down.
With all due respect you are over complicated this. It super easy to gather and pull the information I need.
IEBSBL posted: Ever pitcher is different but if I had to break down and individual pitcher, yes I could tell you the percentages of pitches he threw on any given day. If you are asking me an in general. When I say what is happening on supposed FB counts I am sure you understand and agree that on 3-0, 3-1, 2-0 counts the vast majority of pitches thrown are FB's. I would venture to guess that 90% plus are FB's.
Well, I’d certainly agree if I had any idea that it was true, but the truth is I don’t know. I’ve never had the luxury of being able to concentrate on what type of pitch was being delivered more than a few pitches a game. Logic dictates that on whole HS pitchers throw more FBs than anything else regardless of the count though because in general only the best of them have the capacity to control anything else very well.
From a coaching standpoint the more a pitcher tips the count in his favor the more pitchers throw off speed.
The way you wrote it, I interpreted as you saying “3-0, 3-1, and 2-0 were the counts in the pitcher’s favor.
I don't want my players to have to stop and do math during an AB. LOL
I don’t mean to sound like an old poop, but it sure seems like not a lot of credit is being given to players for being able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
It is 1 sheet per game and we indicate on it when the pitcher has been changed so we played 30 games last year and its 30 pages. To be honest it is super easy for me to break down a pitching chart. I can do a full count percentage scenario in under 5 minutes. if we are are talking about what I give my hitters its less. Keep in mind that the only guaranteed count that a pitcher will throw every AB is 0-0. After that the counts begin to dwindle down.
With all due respect you are over complicated this. It super easy to gather and pull the information I need.
I guess it’s difficult because the only reference I have is looking at pitching charts I’ve seen. Can you put up an example of one of your filled out sheets?
Here are a few examples. The first is the pitch tendency chart we use in game. Kids look at it in game and pick out tendencies as they become apparent. We use different colors for LHH and RHH. We track the 3 and 4 hitters as well as a lot of times in HS they get pitched differently.
The other 2 are examples of how we compile it to show kids. We have some more detailed compilations as well, that talk about the previous pitch, etc., but a lot of the time the simpler the better with 80% of the players.
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This is the best I can do, there is something wrong with my scanner. Here is the sheet we keep on opposing pitchers. However if you look at Ironhorse's break down of pitchers you will see what I am talking about. I do not present it in the same manner but it is the same thing.
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| 0- | 0 | 43% | 57% | 19 |
| 0- | 1 | 80% | 20% | 10 |
| 0- | 2 | 57% | 43% | 7 |
| 1- | 0 | 100% | 0% | 8 |
| 1- | 1 | 100% | 0% | 4 |
| 1- | 2 | 20% | 80% | 5 |
| 2- | 0 | 67% | 33% | 3 |
| 2- | 1 | 100% | 0% | 5 |
| 2- | 2 | 75% | 25% | 4 |
| 3- | 0 | |||
| 3- | 1 | 100% | 0% | 1 |
| 3- | 2 |
Iron Horse, I am going to guess on the columns. First two are obviously count. Column 2: Fastball / Column 3: Off Speed / Column 4: Batters faced in those counts. Am I correct?
Correct. Sorry it cut off on the one with 4 pitchers. Didn't realize that.
Thanks
ironhorse posted: Here are a few examples. The first is the pitch tendency chart we use in game. Kids look at it in game and pick out tendencies as they become apparent. We use different colors for LHH and RHH. We track the 3 and 4 hitters as well as a lot of times in HS they get pitched differently.
The other 2 are examples of how we compile it to show kids. We have some more detailed compilations as well, that talk about the previous pitch, etc., but a lot of the time the simpler the better with 80% of the players.
How are pitches logged on the 1st one? For every pitch on every different count, is the pitch type logged?
On the “Ball Pitching” docx, I’m trying to figger out what I’m looking at. Tell me where I’m off track.
There were 19 batters. 1 PA was over on the 1st pitch. There were 73 pitches thrown.
IEBSBL posted: This is the best I can do, there is something wrong with my scanner. Here is the sheet we keep on opposing pitchers. However if you look at Ironhorse's break down of pitchers you will see what I am talking about. I do not present it in the same manner but it is the same thing.
Don’t worry about the presentation. I’ll do my best to get it figgered out.
See if I get what I’m seeing in the picture right. 35 total PAs. There were 99 pitches. Using the key at the bottom of the page, it looks like every pitch was either a FB in or a FB away.
I realize you’re very familiar with the chart and I’ve only seen it once and have never used it, but how you can break all the data in that chart in just 5 minutes is mind numbing to me.
But if it really is that simple for you to do, I strongly suggest you find a way to get that data into some kind of electronic database. The amount of information you’d have available would amaze you.
I'll be honest and say that I haven't kept up with this topic as I only get to peruse occasionally now a days but what I've read the question is from stats is where is data / empirical evidence showing that coaches calling the game is more successful. Well when I read that what pops in my mind is where is the data / empirical evidence showing catcher / pitcher calling their own game and their success rate? That data is about as abundant as the data showing coaches calling games success rate. This is literally something nobody at the HS level is going to track. Plus there are SOOOO many factors to consider that it makes it impossible to track. I would guess it would take several years to compile this data. It's just not worth it. Come up with a system you like and are comfortable with that you can teach and run with it.
This spring I'm back in the saddle after being out for 9 years and I have a completely new staff with a bunch of guys that due to me coaching softball I haven't got a chance to watch play much. There's a lot of unknowns going on here. My pitching coach and I have talked extensively about philosophy and how we want to approach hitters. While he and I are on the same page there is still going to be a learning curve. My catcher is a senior and has started for 3 years. My PC is going to call the game early in the season and turn that duty over to him as the season progresses. With all the newness going on I'm not going to trust games to him until he shows he understands what we want. So first 2 or 3 games PC calls the game. Next few games we will let him call certain innings / batters but the entire time we are going to talk to him. If he doesn't get what we want then PC will call the games.
Stats4Gnats posted:How are pitches logged on the 1st one? For every pitch on every different count, is the pitch type logged?
All we log on that chart is fastball or offspeed. We breakdown type of offspeed on a different chart, but that's more for coaches honestly. We're not seeing guys with 3 or 4 plus pitches very often, so FB or offspeed works well for hitters timing for us. The only pitches we don't track are what is thrown after a 2-strike foul ball. Count stays the same and it can jack up tendencies,
On the “Ball Pitching” docx, I’m trying to figger out what I’m looking at. Tell me where I’m off track.
That basically just shows hitters what he has thrown in certain counts when we've seen him throw. If we know he throws 1-0 fastballs 90% of the time we gear up for it. If we know he's a 1-1 CB guy, same story.
Our basic hitting philosophy is to pick a pitch (most often fastball) and drive it. If we can find a tendency it helps. Remember, as we've established, most often it's coaches calling pitches, and most coaches have fairly clear tendencies if you pay attention long enough.
ironhorse posted:Stats4Gnats posted:How are pitches logged on the 1st one? For every pitch on every different count, is the pitch type logged?
All we log on that chart is fastball or offspeed. We breakdown type of offspeed on a different chart, but that's more for coaches honestly. We're not seeing guys with 3 or 4 plus pitches very often, so FB or offspeed works well for hitters timing for us. The only pitches we don't track are what is thrown after a 2-strike foul ball. Count stays the same and it can jack up tendencies,
On the “Ball Pitching” docx, I’m trying to figger out what I’m looking at. Tell me where I’m off track.
That basically just shows hitters what he has thrown in certain counts when we've seen him throw. If we know he throws 1-0 fastballs 90% of the time we gear up for it. If we know he's a 1-1 CB guy, same story.
Our basic hitting philosophy is to pick a pitch (most often fastball) and drive it. If we can find a tendency it helps. Remember, as we've established, most often it's coaches calling pitches, and most coaches have fairly clear tendencies if you pay attention long enough.
All coaches have tendencies except for Ed Henry.
coach2709 posted: I'll be honest and say that I haven't kept up with this topic as I only get to peruse occasionally now a days but what I've read the question is from stats is where is data / empirical evidence showing that coaches calling the game is more successful. Well when I read that what pops in my mind is where is the data / empirical evidence showing catcher / pitcher calling their own game and their success rate? That data is about as abundant as the data showing coaches calling games success rate. This is literally something nobody at the HS level is going to track. Plus there are SOOOO many factors to consider that it makes it impossible to track. I would guess it would take several years to compile this data. It's just not worth it. Come up with a system you like and are comfortable with that you can teach and run with it.
This spring I'm back in the saddle after being out for 9 years and I have a completely new staff with a bunch of guys that due to me coaching softball I haven't got a chance to watch play much. There's a lot of unknowns going on here. My pitching coach and I have talked extensively about philosophy and how we want to approach hitters. While he and I are on the same page there is still going to be a learning curve. My catcher is a senior and has started for 3 years. My PC is going to call the game early in the season and turn that duty over to him as the season progresses. With all the newness going on I'm not going to trust games to him until he shows he understands what we want. So first 2 or 3 games PC calls the game. Next few games we will let him call certain innings / batters but the entire time we are going to talk to him. If he doesn't get what we want then PC will call the games.
You’re correct that there are lots of factors involved, but nothing’s impossible if someone really wanted to track it. There just has to be a willingness to do it. IEBSBL and ironhorse are likely typical of coaches who do, where they only look at a small number of factors and use the results to help them make their decisions. Ironhorse looks at FB vs OS by count. IEBSBL incorporates cursory pitch locations, whether the pitch was swung at, the runner and out situation, and the result of the PA. And that’s only 2 guys out of tens of thousands, so it’s not that there isn’t an abundance of data out there. The problem is, the data isn’t kept in a form that can be easily interrogated, such as an electronic database.
As to whether or not it would be “worth” it to have the data and a way to interrogate it, that’s the topic for another debate. My firm belief is there wouldn’t be much of a difference no matter who called the pitches, but the only way to know for sure is track what happens when the catcher calls pitches and compare it to when the bench calls pitches. If you really do as you plan, that should be a pretty simple thing to do. Just compare opponent performance however you want to measure it, and look at it for the 3 different scenarios, i.e. bench calling, catcher calling, a combination of the two.
You said; With all the newness going on I'm not going to trust games to him until he shows he understands what we want. What is it you want? It seems to me that that’s the real question. How will you determine If he doesn't get what we want?
BTW, I wish you nothing but the best of luck in the upcoming season! Will you be using MaxPreps or something like it?
My firm belief is there wouldn’t be much of a difference no matter who called the pitches,
Based on that reasoning, maybe I should consider having a player call the shots in the third base coaching box.
freddy77 posted:My firm belief is there wouldn’t be much of a difference no matter who called the pitches,Based on that reasoning, maybe I should consider having a player call the shots in the third base coaching box.
Good point. IMHO all this discussion about HS catchers calling pitches is utter nonsense.
Stats.....
The 2's are actually Breaking Balls. I forgot that I had an assistant coach who took it upon himself to do the charts and felt more comfortable with what he was doing and used two as a breaking ball.
I am open to suggestions to put them on computer if you have any. I am listening.
freddy77 posted: Based on that reasoning, maybe I should consider having a player call the shots in the third base coaching box.
What does “calling the shots” have to do with calling pitches?
Assume for a moment that every pitch you call from the bench is the best possible choice, i.e. is the best opportunity to get the batter to do precisely what you want. What would you estimate the chances were that the pitchers would execute correctly, i.e. put the pitch exactly where he wanted it thrown with the perfect mechanics to make the pitch the most effective for that pitcher? Then estimate the chances the hitter would respond exactly as expected.
My point is, calling pitches is a far cry from an exact science. All anyone can do is call a pitch they “feel” is the best for the situation at hand, hope the pitcher can execute it correctly, hope the hitter reacts to it as planned, and hope the result is what was expected.
If you want to believe calling the pitches from the bench will give the pitcher a better chance of proper execution, by all means keep calling pitches from the bench. But if that isn’t true, what difference does it make?
Stats4Gnats posted:coach2709 posted: I'll be honest and say that I haven't kept up with this topic as I only get to peruse occasionally now a days but what I've read the question is from stats is where is data / empirical evidence showing that coaches calling the game is more successful. Well when I read that what pops in my mind is where is the data / empirical evidence showing catcher / pitcher calling their own game and their success rate? That data is about as abundant as the data showing coaches calling games success rate. This is literally something nobody at the HS level is going to track. Plus there are SOOOO many factors to consider that it makes it impossible to track. I would guess it would take several years to compile this data. It's just not worth it. Come up with a system you like and are comfortable with that you can teach and run with it.
This spring I'm back in the saddle after being out for 9 years and I have a completely new staff with a bunch of guys that due to me coaching softball I haven't got a chance to watch play much. There's a lot of unknowns going on here. My pitching coach and I have talked extensively about philosophy and how we want to approach hitters. While he and I are on the same page there is still going to be a learning curve. My catcher is a senior and has started for 3 years. My PC is going to call the game early in the season and turn that duty over to him as the season progresses. With all the newness going on I'm not going to trust games to him until he shows he understands what we want. So first 2 or 3 games PC calls the game. Next few games we will let him call certain innings / batters but the entire time we are going to talk to him. If he doesn't get what we want then PC will call the games.
You’re correct that there are lots of factors involved, but nothing’s impossible if someone really wanted to track it. There just has to be a willingness to do it.
As to whether or not it would be “worth” it to have the data and a way to interrogate it, that’s the topic for another debate. My firm belief is there wouldn’t be much of a difference no matter who called the pitches, but the only way to know for sure is track what happens when the catcher calls pitches and compare it to when the bench calls pitches. If you really do as you plan, that should be a pretty simple thing to do. Just compare opponent performance however you want to measure it, and look at it for the 3 different scenarios, i.e. bench calling, catcher calling, a combination of the two.
You said; With all the newness going on I'm not going to trust games to him until he shows he understands what we want. What is it you want? It seems to me that that’s the real question. How will you determine If he doesn't get what we want?
BTW, I wish you nothing but the best of luck in the upcoming season! Will you be using MaxPreps or something like it?
Thank you and hopefully they are able to overcome any of my shortcomings and be successful. Had our first workout today and got me excited although I'm on crutches right now after knee surgery. Wasn't able to do much myself but I think overall we got better.
I will say that my almost decade off has changed my thinking about numbers and how to create a lineup. I'm going to base my decisions on OBP, OPS and number of pitches seen. I'm a huge Chicago Cubs fan and watching their philosophy and how Maddon makes the lineup just blows my mind. I love it and have been trying to read up on it as much as I can.
Anyway, back to your question of what I want - I want to turn my guys loose and be able to play the game. I don't want to think for them so it's up to me and my staff to get this accomplished. But if along the way we feel it's not happening then we will and have to think for them for us to be successful.
How will we know? Well it's kinda like that old phrase "I can't explain what art is but I know it when I see it" (disclaimer - they didn't use art but a word that rhymes with torn). Early when we are calling pitches we are going to explain why we called what we called. This is where we hope the learning takes place during games and bullpen sessions. As we let him call innings the dialogue will continue. Why did he call this pitch in this situation? If he can explain why then he is getting it and if he can't then he's not getting it.
IEBSBL posted: Stats.....
The 2's are actually Breaking Balls. I forgot that I had an assistant coach who took it upon himself to do the charts and felt more comfortable with what he was doing and used two as a breaking ball.
I am open to suggestions to put them on computer if you have any. I am listening.
Let’s see if I can come up with something that lets you take what’s on that chart and put it into an electronic database. Since I’ve done this a few times before, I’m gonna need to ask some questions. I am not criticizing what you’ve done, but I do need to make sure I’m on the same page as you.
Each chart represents 1 game, so I’ll start there. To me, the 1st important thing is a date. And just because I’ve had trouble with playing more than 1 game in a day, I’d put in a game number as well. That way it’s possible to break games out.
Assuming you might want this information for both your pitchers as well as the opponent’s, I’d have a team name and an opponent’s name as well. Something a lot of folks don’t think about, but I’ve had a lot of use for is the type of game being played. The 3 types I deal with a lot are non-conference games, conference games, and post season games. I don’t do it, but it would be easy enough to have a scrimmage type as well. That’s the easy stuff.
From your picture I see you’re using this chart to relate what the pitchers are doing to the hitters. That’s OK but it does mean we have to make sure we allow for that. From that perspective, the next thing I see we need to keep track of is the BPos, and with that the name of the hitter. I see you list the data on the sheet by the PA of the BPos. IOW, for the #1 spot there are 4 PAs. To me it’s a sound piece of data to track because you’d be able to break out the data by 1st PAs, 2nd PAs, etc. Trouble is, since all pitchers and all hitters are on the same sheet, you’d have to make sure whoever put in the data made sure they got it right. Personally, I wouldn’t suggest going beyond the BPos and name.
Now we come to situation. This really complicates things but if it gets broken down it shouldn’t cause too much trouble. What it looks like to me is the number of outs and the position of any runners is what’s really being looked at, as well as when an inning starts. The last one’s simple enough. It’s a T/F field and when a PA is the 1st of an inning it can be marked “T”, otherwise it will always be “F”.
Then you have the number of outs. Of course the 1st batter of an inning will be 0, then the number of outs changes as necessary. Same with the runners. There are 8 possible runner situations. That’s all easy enough as long as the number of outs and the position of the runners doesn’t change during a PA. The easiest way to handle this issue is to not associate the outs or the runners to a PA, but rather to a pitch. That way if either or both change they can be easily taken care of.
The next thing is the count. Of course there are 12 possible counts, but the only ones needing to be tracked are the ones that actually happen. FI, if the 1st pitch is put into play, the only entry needed would be the one for 0-0.
The final thing I see being tracked is the result of the PA. This one could cause a lot of problems unless everyone enters the result the same way. FI, if Billy enters 6-3 for a ground out to short and Tommy enters “GO”, it would make for a “messy” final report.
Be all that as it may, I’ve worked up a data input form to tinker around with. Please see the attachment.
The data below is data I entered from the 1st PA from the picture you posted. Of course that form is cursory and very simple. I’ll tinker some more with it tomorrow to see how fast I can make the data entry, including some automatic verification of inputs to keep as much bad data from out of the database as possible. Right now it takes about 5 seconds per record entered.
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Ok, how do you make 1 of those things you attached?
IEBSBL posted:Ok, how do you make 1 of those things you attached?
What I do is take a screen shot, paste it in a word doc, use the picture tools to crop it, copy it into a clean doc, then print it to a PDF. It sounds complicated but it only takes about 15 seconds.
I hope you're able to post something better than that pic of the chart. I'm almost to the point where I'm about ready to put the entire page into the database and it would be easier with a better pic.
Stats:
This is the best I can do at the current time. Apparently we no longer have access to scanning from our classrooms with the new updated computers. If it is not good enough, let me know and I will figure it out. This is the same sheet I posted before.
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Stats4Gnats posted:IEBSBL posted:Ok, how do you make 1 of those things you attached?
What I do is take a screen shot, paste it in a word doc, use the picture tools to crop it, copy it into a clean doc, then print it to a PDF. It sounds complicated but it only takes about 15 seconds.
No, I know that. I mean that program or whatever you are actually putting this information into.
That pic is a lot better, but it does bring up some other “issues”. I don’t want to sound like I’m chiding you because I love the effort to gather data, so don’t feel attacked. You’ve done what almost always happens. You started simple but gradually things got complicated.
Now you’re charting much more than you might realize, and the problem is, you haven’t put a “key” of all those things on the chart. I’ll work with what I see, but chances are I’m gonna be taking a lot of blind alleys. And just so you know, the more things you try to track, the longer the inputting process is. Personally I think that time is well worth it, but if you won’t be using that information ou might want to think about not tracking it.
I’m guessing you mean the actual form. I happen to use visual FoxPro, but there are gozillions of similar packages out there. Visual basic is the programming language. I like VFP because I’ve been using it so long. It has wizzards in it that do a lot of the work, but there’s a fair amount of programming involved as well. The real trick is to know what you want to save and how you’ll want to present it, and the more precise those things are, the easier it is.
In the end you can put it on the hard drive or a thumb drive. It’ll only be a few files and can be run from the file explorer or an icon if you know how to make one. Nothing on the system is changed and its completely mobile so you can give it to whomever you want. When you get tired of it, all ya gotta do is delete it.
After looking at the better pic, I see there are some additional things I need to account for. I get that if a pitch is circled it was a strike. Your key says to dot swinging strikes but I see no dots. It also says to square pitches put into play, but I see no squared pitches even though there were several put into play. It also says to underline pitches that were swung at but weren’t strikes, but I see none of those either.
You’ve already explained that you’re only tracking FBs and OS pitches with a 1 or 2 but I assume you want other pitch types marked as well since you put a pitch type key on the chart.
What does the line above the pitch mean? The best I can make out it’s a swing.
I assume you don’t want to differentiate between a foul ball and a swing and a miss.
Here’s some food for thought. There are a lot of ways to gather data and a lot of ways to use it. Let’s say you want to be able to look at what an opposing pitcher does and he pitches to 20 batters. It would make sense to look at his data in a linear way from 1st batter to 20th. But if you want to see how your batters did you’d want to look at that data the way you have it, which is how a standard scoresheet is set up.
From the perspective of data input, it’s easier to put things in as they happen, i.e. 1st batter to last. The reason is, the person putting it in can self-check from one batter to the next. Putting things in by batter means the record you’re putting in has no relation to the prior one or the one that follows. In your case it also means when there’s a pitching change you have to change the pitchers name many times.
For ease of data entry, you’d want to put in records where the least amount of data changes as possible. When I put in the data for that pic, I’ll do the 1st PA for the 1st BPos, then the 1st PA for the 2nd BPos, etc. and well see how it goes.
What throws a monkey wrench into it is that because 2 names will have to go in for every record because you want batter information included, no matter how the data’s entered, at least one name will need to be typed for every record, and that’s a lot of keystrokes.
Gotta have some help until I get used to what’s goin’ on.
Looking at the 1st batter of the game, nobody on and no outs, it looks like the 1st pitch was a FB taken for a ball. That would mean the 2nd pitch was 10 but it’s listed as 01. It looks like that pitch was taken for a strike which would make the next pitch on a 11 count. That pitch was a FB for a ball so the next pitch would be 21. It looks like it was a swinging strike on a FB to make the count 22. That pitch was an OS pitch for a ball making it 32 and the next pitch was a FB ball for a walk.
The 2nd PA for the #1 BPos was pretty easy. 1 out 2 runners on. FB for a swinging strike. Curve for a swinging strike. FB for another swinging strike.
The 3rd PA is a bit difficult. 2 outs, runners on 1st and 3rd. 1st pitch was a swinging strike. 2nd pitch was an swinging strike on an OS pitch, but it looks like there was a play on and a runner was thrown out on a POCS. That should end the PA, but the result column has F8 in it.
That would make it the end of the inning, but the 3rd PA for the #2 BPos starts with 1 out.
Once again, I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE YOU LOOK BAD!! I’m just pointing out what might pose problems for someone trying to enter the data. I’m guessing you might have a team manager or some other volunteer doing that, which only makes sense. But if that’s the case, they’ll be like me and be trying to reconcile what they see on the sheet with what they know about what the markings mean.
I’m slowly working out the bugs, but it’s definitely getting better.
OK, here’s the data from the 1st 2 batting positions. Please see attachment.
I wanted to get something printed out to get a better picture of the whole thing. I know it’s not real slick, but I’m flyin’ blind, not trying to dot every “I” and cross every “T”, and goin’ as fast as I can.
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Put in another batter and generated a report to show what pitches are thrown on what counts.
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OK, I got the whole sheet put in. Take a look at the attachment and you’ll see the 1st report is simply one showing the number of pitches in each count that were either a FB or a curve. That’s because you said:
IEBSBL posted:Stats.....
The 2's are actually Breaking Balls. I forgot that I had an assistant coach who took it upon himself to do the charts and felt more comfortable with what he was doing and used two as a breaking ball.
I am open to suggestions to put them on computer if you have any. I am listening.
After having done an entire game, I still have a few questions, but also have a few suggestions.
What made it very difficult for me was trying to interpret what the entries meant. I suspect that’s because the “Key” at the bottom of the form didn’t explain all the markings. So my 1st suggest is, redo your form/chart. Make sure you list all the things you want marked and how you want them marked. There’s a reason for that suggestion. CONSISTENCY. That way no matter who you have doing the charting, they’ll be doing it the same way.
It sounds to me as though your asst coach found out how difficult it was to correctly ID those 5 different possible pitches in the pitch key and did what was easy. A pitch is either a FB or not, not a FB or a breaking pitch. The reason is, there are lot of pitches that aren’t FBs but don’t break. Would it be nice to know the precise pitch that was thrown? U bet. But that’s really tough to do because there are so many ways to throw any conceivable pitch.
Think about what information is the most useful. If a pitch isn’t a FB, does it really matter if it’s a CU, Curve, Slider, Split, or Knuckler? Is it important to know whether a pitch was a cutter, sinker, or 4S FB? So is it more useful to know if a pitch is a FB or OS pitch, or FB or breaking pitch. Believe me, the difference is important since a good cutter or sinker is a breaking pitch as well as a FB and many CUs don’t break but aren’t FBs.
Quit marking the situation, outs and runners, in that 1st column and make a place for it in every count column. That way when the situation changes during a PA, it’s easy to show it. Ex: batter comes up with 1 outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. Mark that in the 00 count column. 1st pitch is a swinging strike making the count 01. You don’t have to put that in the 01 column because the situation hasn’t changed. 2nd pitch is a ball making it 11, but since the situation hasn’t changed, no need to mark anything. 3rd pitch is a strike, but the runner on 1st takes off. The throw down gets R1 but R3 scores. Now the count is 1-2, but the situation has really changed because there are 2 outs and no runners on.
Quit using uniform numbers for players. If players change unis from year to year, during the season, or even have to use someone else’s uni for a game, the information for that batter is compromised.
Find a way to show when there’s been a pitching change. I input 119 pitches for the starting pitcher because I couldn’t tell if or when another pitcher came in.
Why are you marking RBIs on this chart?
What do the “RH” & “LH” in the name column mean?
The attachment lists the results of PAs sorted by BPos.
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Sorry Stats,
I was out of town since Thursday. Let me try to catch up with what is going on.
I agree with all of your assessments and I have not taken anything personal as you are giving me your advice. The PScall2.pdf, is what I am really looking for. Something that will generate percentages. A lot of the reason for differences is that I had an assistant coach take over the charts after I printed them out. He is an ex pro ball guy and he kind of made them is own and charted things he wanted to see. When he took it upon himself to do it, I just had him communicate with me what it all meant so that I had an understanding of what I was looking at. In a rush to get you what you needed I forgot to communicate it with you. Also I have other assistants that sometimes I send out and I tell them I merely need pitches thrown. Depending on what assistant goes is what I ask. I appreciate your help on this. How can I replicate this stuff? Also, I understand what I am looking at when I see the Pcalls1 and Pcalls3. What type of information can I get from that? Looking to broaden my horizon on this.
IEBSBL posted: I agree with all of your assessments and I have not taken anything personal as you are giving me your advice.
Perfect. It’s a lot more difficult trying to figger out what a user wants and how he wants to see it when you can’t sit down together and brainstorm, so sometimes people take what’s said the wrong way.
The PScall2.pdf, is what I am really looking for. Something that will generate percentages.
At this point those reports are just me noodling around trying to find ways to present the data in a useful way. You’d be surprised at what some people find useful.
Take a look at the attachment and notice there are 2 reports.
You’ll see I added some percentages to PCALLS2, and added another field to use to print out PCALLS1. I added Which At Bat(WAB) which I used to print off the data in sequential PAs rather than by hitters the way they’d be on a normal scoresheet.
If you look through it, it won’t take you long to see there were some data input errors. It should go from no outs to 1 out to 2 outs and the 1st no out record after 2 outs should be a leadoff at bat. I’ll admit to fumble fingers on some, but on some of the others I just couldn’t read what was on the page or misinterpreted it. I could fix them all, and would if it were my data. We’ll see how much time I have.
But this shows what I was talking about earlier. By entering them as they appear on the sheet, it’s really difficult go back and forth trying to see what really happened, and therefore difficult to self-correct prior to putting something in. Since I’ve been using the Project Scoresheet way of keeping score I’ve gotten very used to and comfortable keeping score that way and looking at the scoresheet like that. I’m not trying to get you to change, but like I said, it’s easier to see the game flow for me, and allowed me to very easily see the input mistakes.
A lot of the reason for differences is that I had an assistant coach take over the charts after I printed them out. He is an ex pro ball guy and he kind of made them is own and charted things he wanted to see. When he took it upon himself to do it, I just had him communicate with me what it all meant so that I had an understanding of what I was looking at. In a rush to get you what you needed I forgot to communicate it with you. Also I have other assistants that sometimes I send out and I tell them I merely need pitches thrown. Depending on what assistant goes is what I ask.
I had a feeling something like that was happening because it’s not at all unusual. Here’s the best advice I can give on the subject. You are the big moo-moo, so no matter what else anyone does, the 1st priority is to make sure you get what you want. That other stuff is all good information, and if it’s gonna be used, by all means it’s OK. It just has to be done consistently, and to do that all the little squiggles, lines, circles, etc. have to be defined.
I get the impression you use the chart not just during your games, but as a scouting tool. Is that correct?
I appreciate your help on this. How can I replicate this stuff?
Not sure yet. I could just send you the program and files to make it run, but there’s really a lot of bugs in it. I’ve done things like this many times before, and it almost always comes down to me putting in a lot of time and the person I make it for won’t make the effort to learn how to use it. Send me a PM with your email address. I’ll send it along as it is and you can play if you like. No harm, no foul.
Also, I understand what I am looking at when I see the Pcalls1 and Pcalls3. What type of information can I get from that? Looking to broaden my horizon on this.
Once you get data put into an electronic form, you’d be flabbergasted at what information you can glean from it. What do you want?
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I am looking for tendencies. I mean at the end of the day, the Adults are calling the pitches and they will all fall into tendencies, based off the pitcher on the mound. The main Tendencies I look for are
Counts: 0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-2
Pitches: 0-0 FB for a strike (What's Next?), 0-0 FB for a ball (What's Next)
0-0 BB for a strike (What's next), 0-0 BB for a ball (What's Next)
Situation: 0-0 (Running in Scoring Position)
These are the big situation we look at as a program. Now I will never turn down a piece of information that we stumble on but those are this the exact things I really focus on.
IEBSBL posted: I am looking for tendencies. I mean at the end of the day, the Adults are calling the pitches and they will all fall into tendencies, based off the pitcher on the mound. The main Tendencies I look for are
Counts: 0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-2
Pitches: 0-0 FB for a strike (What's Next?), 0-0 FB for a ball (What's Next)
0-0 BB for a strike (What's next), 0-0 BB for a ball (What's Next)
Situation: 0-0 (Running in Scoring Position)
These are the big situation we look at as a program. Now I will never turn down a piece of information that we stumble on but those are this the exact things I really focus on.
It took a while to get that outta you, but that’s not at all unusual. It’s quite common for someone to know what they want but not be able to define it so someone else understands it. Let me cogitate on that for a few and see what I can come up with.
When you say breaking ball, do you mean anything not a FB or a pitch that actually has horizontal movement? I hate to keep harping on this, but it makes a difference. Unless I hear different, I’m gonna assume there are 2 categories of pitches. FBs and Non-FBs.
Thank you.
It's amazing how much longer it takes do do things when you're not face-2-face. Luckily I'm old, retired, and other than riding my bike every day and dealing with 3 ankle biters, I don't have a lot to do. Plus it helps to really love this stuff!
IEBSBL posted: I am looking for tendencies. I mean at the end of the day, the Adults are calling the pitches and they will all fall into tendencies, based off the pitcher on the mound. The main Tendencies I look for are
Counts: 0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-2
Pitches: 0-0 FB for a strike (What's Next?), 0-0 FB for a ball (What's Next)
0-0 BB for a strike (What's next), 0-0 BB for a ball (What's Next)
Situation: 0-0 (Running in Scoring Position)
These are the big situation we look at as a program. Now I will never turn down a piece of information that we stumble on but those are this the exact things I really focus on.
It took a while to get that outta you, but that’s not at all unusual either. It’s quite common for someone to know what they want but not be able to define it so someone else understands it. Let me cogitate on that for a few and see what I can come up with.
It took a bit of cogitating, but here's something new. See attached.
That’s the good news. The bad news is, now that we have a better handle on what it is that’s really wanted, some changes need to be made in what’s already been done. FI, I allowed for 10 different pitches, but it turns out all you need is FB and Other. Now having a list to choose from isn’t necessary. It’s either 1 – FB or 2 – Other.
Now I’ll make those changes and see what happens.
Before I forget, what is it you want to know if the situation is 0-0 and a runner(s) in scoring position?
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In theory, if you really tracked it properly, wouldnt a program like Game Changer be able to break that down and give you all that data? Not sure how much you can break it down, but I believe there is a lot of info in there.
FriarFred posted:In theory, if you really tracked it properly, wouldnt a program like Game Changer be able to break that down and give you all that data? Not sure how much you can break it down, but I believe there is a lot of info in there.
The data input in Game Changer is only as good as the person inputting the data. And in my experience, without exception, that person isn't good enough for the data to be meaningful.
FriarFred posted: In theory, if you really tracked it properly, wouldnt a program like Game Changer be able to break that down and give you all that data? Not sure how much you can break it down, but I believe there is a lot of info in there.
Yes, some scoring programs CAN certainly provide a lot of information about pitches. The problem is, it’s still data that has to be somehow marked. There are some things that a scoring program can handle without additional input. FI, if a batter hits a HR, an RBI can be generated without the user doing anything. But how does the computer know what a pitch or its location was? It doesn’t, so the user has to do something to get that information into the system. It’s certainly possible for the scorer to do that, but believe me, there are so many things going on, it’s no small feat to add those additional pieces of data, accurately.
adbono posted: The data input in Game Changer is only as good as the person inputting the data. And in my experience, without exception, that person isn't good enough for the data to be meaningful.
It isn’t that scorers aren’t “good” enough, which implies they don’t have the ability to accurately recognize what the pitch and location was, which is likely true more often than not. There’s often just too much going on for the scorer to be able to concentrate on the pitch type and location without some other part of scoring suffering.
I never was much of a fan of charting pitch types and locations until technology took over the task. I know a lot of folks honestly believe they can recognize pitch type and locations, but my guess is, the error rate is far too high to count on any resultant data.
Stats4Gnats posted:Before I forget, what is it you want to know if the situation is 0-0 and a runner(s) in scoring position?
I am looking for what pitch is thrown on a 0-0 count with Runners in scoring position. Some pitchers will never throw fastball and others will.
IEBSBL posted: I am looking for what pitch is thrown on a 0-0 count with Runners in scoring position. Some pitchers will never throw fastball and others will.
I think I know what you mean and will go with it, but I have to ask to be absolutely positive. When you say RISP, I assume you mean any situation where there’s a runner on 2nd or 3rd.
See attached.
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We’ve gotten to the point where I’m pretty sure you’ll understand something new, so here goes.
The 1st thing I did way try to figger out what you wanted and then come up with a way to get it. What I’ve done is create a table which is made up of rows and columns just like a spreadsheet. I’ll go through it for you now. Many years of playing with baseball data has taught me there are certain things necessary. What I’ve done is defined every column.
Date – Date format – 01/01/2017
You may well ask, “What’s the need for the date”, and all can only say it has more uses than you’d think. I our case it’s the date the game was played, not the date the data gets entered.
Gamenum – numeric (1)
This may be unfamiliar to you, but believe me it’s a necessary evil. The way I use it is to give the 1st game of the day a gamenum of 1, the 2nd 2, etc.. That way the different games can be broken out.
Team – character(15)
Pretty simple. This is your team.
Opp – character(15)
The opponent’s team
Gametype – numeric(1)
This is the type of game it was. Typically it can be a regular season game, a post season game, or a scrimmage game.
Pfname – character(15)
Pitcher’s first name the data is for.
Plname – character(20)
Pitcher’s last name the data is for.
Bpos – Batting position
Bfname – character(15)
Batter’s first name the data is for.
Blname – character(20)
Batter’s last name the data is for.
Firstatbat – logical
If it’s the 1st at bat on an inning, this is true. All others are false.
Count – character(2)
Has to be a numeric character.
Outs – numeric(1)
Runners – numeric(1)
Pitch – numeric(1)
Action – numeric(1)
Result – character(5)
WAB – numeric(3)
That’s the map of 1 record, and there’s a record for every pitch. That likely sounds silly, but bear with me for a while.
Ask any questions you like. Next I’ll go through adding a record using the form.
Stats4Gnats posted:IEBSBL posted: I am looking for what pitch is thrown on a 0-0 count with Runners in scoring position. Some pitchers will never throw fastball and others will.
I think I know what you mean and will go with it, but I have to ask to be absolutely positive. When you say RISP, I assume you mean any situation where there’s a runner on 2nd or 3rd.
See attached.
Yes that is what I mean.
Stats4Gnats posted:We’ve gotten to the point where I’m pretty sure you’ll understand something new, so here goes.
The 1st thing I did way try to figger out what you wanted and then come up with a way to get it. What I’ve done is create a table which is made up of rows and columns just like a spreadsheet. I’ll go through it for you now. Many years of playing with baseball data has taught me there are certain things necessary. What I’ve done is defined every column.
Date – Date format – 01/01/2017
You may well ask, “What’s the need for the date”, and all can only say it has more uses than you’d think. I our case it’s the date the game was played, not the date the data gets entered.
Gamenum – numeric (1)
This may be unfamiliar to you, but believe me it’s a necessary evil. The way I use it is to give the 1st game of the day a gamenum of 1, the 2nd 2, etc.. That way the different games can be broken out.
Team – character(15)
Pretty simple. This is your team.
Opp – character(15)
The opponent’s team
Gametype – numeric(1)
This is the type of game it was. Typically it can be a regular season game, a post season game, or a scrimmage game.
Pfname – character(15)
Pitcher’s first name the data is for.
Plname – character(20)
Pitcher’s last name the data is for.
Bpos – Batting position
Bfname – character(15)
Batter’s first name the data is for.
Blname – character(20)
Batter’s last name the data is for.
Firstatbat – logical
If it’s the 1st at bat on an inning, this is true. All others are false.
Count – character(2)
Has to be a numeric character.
Outs – numeric(1)
Runners – numeric(1)
Pitch – numeric(1)
Action – numeric(1)
Result – character(5)
WAB – numeric(3)
That’s the map of 1 record, and there’s a record for every pitch. That likely sounds silly, but bear with me for a while.
Ask any questions you like. Next I’ll go through adding a record using the form.
Sounds good and makes sense.
Just so you know, if you want to you can set up a SS with columns formatted like those so you can enter the data yourself, which is a great segue for the next thing I wanted to explain about data entry. I’ll go through adding a record using the form to try to explain some things.
Please look at the attachment.
Pic 1 shows the form just after the “Add” button has been pressed. Notice the date is filled in automatically and that’s the field the cursor’s at which can be told by the background color being grey. When the program starts the user’s asked what date to use, and that becomes the date automatically filled in when a record is added. When I first started doing this stuff I just used the current date. But It wasn’t too long before I noticed just as often as not the data wasn’t getting entered on a different day, and all I was doing was making more work by using the wrong date.
The next field is gamenum. There’s validity check on this field. The entry has to be 1-9.
The next field is team. It’s set up to automatically be caps. It also gives us the 1st real chance for trouble caused by typos. Let’s say your team is ROCKLIN and you want to see all PAs for that team. When the SQL is created to pull all those records it will have a clause that says “where team = ‘ROCKLIN’”. But what happens if “ROCKLN”, EOCKLIN”, or some other typo happened when the user was typing in the name? Nothing except those records won’t be pulled.
There are ways to deal with this issue, the main one being setting some program parameters with team name being one of them. Then the team name is automatically filled in which means no possibility of a typo. It’s no big deal to set that up, but it makes the system more complicated. Complicated means the learning curve will be longer making it more likely users won’t like it. So for now, let’s just assume everyone will be very careful when they type.
Something people do is try to make data entry faster, so they might just skip entering a team altogether. What I’ve done is make sure there’s an entry by checking to see something was entered. If there hasn’t been an entry, the message shown in Pic 1 is displayed. It allows the user to continue, but it forces him/her to make that decision before continuing. If yes is chosen the cursor moves to the Opp field, if no is chosen it stays on the team field. The same things happen if there’s no Opp entry.
Gametype is next. The entry has to be 1 thru 4.
Then next two fields, pitcher’s first and last name bring an issue similar to the one for team and opponent. I validity check the fields for entries, but not for spelling. A name like Bill Smith isn’t gonna cause a lot of problems, but I don’t have to tell anyone that there are many difficult to spell names, and on top of that there’s a first and last name that can cause problems. Believe me, this is a real issue with data entry.
The way I usually take care of this issue is to have another database for players. It contains all the pertinent information about the player and is controlled by a player ID #. Trouble is, every player has to be in the database. So, to keep things simple, we’re just goin’ with first and last names for both pitchers and hitters and trusting that whoever enters the data check it over after it’s in the system.
After the pitcher’s name comes the BPos of the batter. This has to be a number less than 11.
Then it’s the batter’s first and last names.
The next field is Leadoff. It’s represented by a checkbox. Checked means the data is for leading off an inning.
Outs is next and must be a 0, 1, or 2.
The next field is runners. As soon as the field is chosen a popup becomes visible. See pic 3. The field itself is a number from 1 thru 8. The use can click on one of the choices or just enter the number representing the runner situation. This saves keystrokes which saves time and stops typos.
Which At Bat is next. It has to be a number from 0 thru 99. Personally I use this field a lot, but I’m not forcing its use. Let’s say the #1 batter has 4 PAs and there are 9 in the lineup. The 1st one would be 1, the 2nd would be 10, the 3rd 19, and the 4th 28. The #2 position would be 2, 11, 20, and 29, and it would go that way all through the lineup.
Counts next. As soon as it’s chosen, a popup with all the different choices shows up. See Pic 4. I’ve found it’s quicker to just enter the 2 numbers with the keypad than to use the mouse, but to each his own.
Pitch is next. Originally I had a popup come up with 10 different choices. But since all you’re doing is FB/OS, I’ve cut it back to 1 or 2.
When Action’s chose another popup show up. Here again the user can use the mouse or just enter a number.
The last field is Result. This should be used when a PA is over. I used BB, HBP, K, KL, 63, F78, 1B7, etc. It really doesn’t matter, but whatever is used should be used by everyone, otherwise it’s gonna cause problems. FI, if one coach uses 1B7 for a single to left and another uses S7, it’s gonna be hard to put out the hits.
When the user’s satisfied, s/he hits the Save button, and that’s how you add one record. That will work, but it sure takes a long time to do that over 100 times for a game. After doint that for a while, I streamlined things a bit. If you notice, when the Add button is pressed, among other things that happen is the Reports and Browse buttons disappear and the Snapshot button appears.
When that button is activated either by the mouse, Alt+T, or F12, the record in the form is added to the data base and the form is set up for the next record. Pic 6 is the form just prior to a snapshot and Pic 7 is just after.
Notice that most of the form is already filled out. In this case the runner on 1st stole 2nd on the 1st pitch of the PA so the position of the runners has to change. Normally that wouldn’t be true, if it is all that has to happen is to go back to the runners field, change it, then come back to the count field. In this case the count is 10. The pitch is a FB put in play for a sac bunt result. A snapshot is taken and we’re ready for the next pitch. See Pic 8.
Those 2 pitches were the 1st PA for BPos #2 on the pic you posted. Now we’re ready to put in the 2nd PA for that BPos. This time there are 2 outs and a runner on 2nd. The number of outs has to change so you arrow up and change the outs to 2, and the WAB to 12. The count will already be 00. The pitch is a FB for a ball, so change those fields and you’re done. Take another snapshot.
That’s enough for now. Gotta have time to soak it up.
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In order to get some more data, I entered the data from the pic again. This time it was much easier because now I know a lot more about what’s goin’ on. If you look closely you’ll see some entries have changed. Most of that is because I know more about what’s on the sheet, but some of it’s because I’ve made some corrections to the operation of the form.
I also switched the 1st and 3rd batters so I could check out how the batter’s report would look. Please see the attached.
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Been working on getting rid of bugs and putting in things to help eliminate typos. One way to do that is to have pull down lists. There are other ways to do it, but even though some of those ways would be as good or better, they would complicate things too. Here’s what I came up with.
As soon as the Team field is chosen, a pull-down list control becomes visible. See Pic 1 of attachment.
At that point the user may type in a name or click on the pull-down arrow to activate the list. A choice may be made from the list to fill the team field and move the cursor to the opponent field. See Pic 2.
When the cursor moves to the opponent field a pull down list control for that field becomes visible. See Pic 3. The same thing happens for the Pitcher’s name, see Pic 4, and the Batter’s name, see Pic 5.
As more names are added to any of those fields, the lists will grow automatically. To make it a bit easier to use, the lists are in alphabetical order and can be navigated using the mouse, arrow, keys, or typing a letter. FI, if you wanted to find a batter whose last name was “Head”, typing an “H” would move it to the 1st H in the list.
This is all pretty standard stuff and not difficult to use at all. I’m trying to keep it as simple as possible so whomever enters the data only needs to know what the markings on the chart mean.
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I’ve decided to make another feature available for you. It’s called “Sgrid” and displays the raw data in a way the user might find useful. Please see attachment.
With it, the user will be able to sort the data by any column, find any value in any column, and a couple other useful things. It’s similar to the “Browse” on the Pcalls form, but the Browse can’t do the other things. See the attachment Pic 1.
Notice the scroll bars Most computer screen aren’t wide enough to show all the fields, but if your is what you see is stretchable. Pic 2. You can right click on a column header to see the options. Pic 3.
Values may be changed using either Browse or Sgrid, but I very strongly advise against it because there’s no validity checking.
I’m ready to send it to you to play with if you’d like, but I need an email address to send it to. Just send me a PM.
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