To move from HS to college ball, what's more important; being well-rounded (overall better than peers maybe, but no standout tool) or to simply have a plus tool(s)? My son is a sophomore so we have time, what would you focus on? Spend time on perceived weaknesses to become more well-rounded or focus more on his strengths in a quest to develop plus tools?
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I say a plus tool.. seems there would be a lot of well rounded players. I guess its the team need as well
Improve in all areas. One tool is not enough by itself, unless you plan on being a DH, pinch hitter, or pinch runner.
PGStaff posted:Improve in all areas. One tool is not enough by itself, unless you plan on being a DH, pinch hitter, or pinch runner.
No disrespect, but PG (and like organizations) is mostly why I asked. From my experience you guys almost exclusively measure tools (e.g. arm strength mph, hands mph, spin rate rpm, the sixty, exit speed, on and on ...). There's the occasional lip service to "good all around players" on evaluation, but I'm not sure how you measure that? You can't get to that in a game or two I wouldn't think. And if true that tools aren't the most important, then why don't you publicize those players more? It's easy to find list after list of top speeds, etc. (tool measurements) but on quick scan I saw nothing about well-rounded players. Is the truism that if you can hit they will find a spot for you no longer hold true? And a pitching example, is it not generally accepted that if you throw "X" mph you will move up (e.g. 90?, 95?...?).
PG... I expected you to definitely say "tools", I was surprised.
PGStaff posted:Improve in all areas. One tool is not enough by itself, unless you plan on being a DH, pinch hitter, or pinch runner.
Or that one tool is 95 off the mound
SargeEmm posted:PGStaff posted:Improve in all areas. One tool is not enough by itself, unless you plan on being a DH, pinch hitter, or pinch runner.
No disrespect, but PG (and like organizations) is mostly why I asked. From my experience you guys almost exclusively measure tools (e.g. arm strength mph, hands mph, spin rate rpm, the sixty, exit speed, on and on ...). There's the occasional lip service to "good all around players" on evaluation, but I'm not sure how you measure that? You can't get to that in a game or two I wouldn't think. And if true that tools aren't the most important, then why don't you publicize those players more? It's easy to find list after list of top speeds, etc. (tool measurements) but on quick scan I saw nothing about well-rounded players. Is the truism that if you can hit they will find a spot for you no longer hold true? And a pitching example, is it not generally accepted that if you throw "X" mph you will move up (e.g. 90?, 95?...?).
PG... I expected you to definitely say "tools", I was surprised.
We'll rounded doesn't mean that you have no plus tools. Top prospects have several plus tools, sometimes all 5 of them. If you have several good tools you are well rounded too.
Actually I think most college players have several good tools, the guys who can just mash are the minority.
Unless you hit moonshots you need to be able to play to make the next level but just OK with everything is probably not enough.
Tools are vitally important. That said it still takes more than one tool. However one tool is all it takes to be noticed. If you can run, but you can't field, throw or hit, your not going very far. If you can throw 90+ from the mound you will get all kinds of interest, but by itself, it doesn't mean your going to get very far. Every player that has one plus tool needs to improve in the other areas. So the pitcher that throws 90+ needs to have control and at least one other average pitch.
Now hitting is the one tool that can stand on its own. Though it stands out much more if another tool (power) is present. However, that hitter has to play a position, excluding DH. If he can't at least be adequate at any position, he becomes a pinch hitter. The more he develops the other tools, the more valuable and attractive he is to the next level. If someone is a true plus hitter, someone is going to take a chance they can develop his other skills. Just like the pitcher with a plus fastball.
Development is not about concentrating on one tool. It's about becoming better and more valuable. There are those that are considered good all around players. They need to continue developing their skills. There are those that have one plus tool. They also need to keep developing their skills.
That was my point in saying players should work at improving in all areas, rather than concentrating on just one thing. That doesn't mean you don't keep working on improving that one thing. Everything is important! And yes, one plus tool will definitely create some interest. But two or more will create a lot more interest.
SARGEEM, can you ask your real question?
Go44dad posted:SARGEEM, can you ask your real question?
Odd suspicion on your part, there are 3 question marks in my OP and they're all real. Appreciate the answers thus far from others, they seem to get it.
So Go44dad, can YOU give a real answer... that's the new "real question".
For the sake of discussion, I'll personalize it some more if this is something worth discussing. My son is a sophomore in HS. He is a good "all around player", but the attention that he's getting is over his bat & arm speed. He starts @ JV SS for a D1 HS in an extremely good division. He hit .408 with 1 hr as a freshman, he's hitting .492 with 1 HR so far this year. Led team in steals, OBP, extra base hits and had the lowest K's / 9 innings. A good base runner, but is just over 7 sec in the 60 (several kids faster on team) and as a pitcher he walks too many. As a closer he touches 90, but more often you'll see him at 87-88mph. Some colleges are interested in him pitching, others as a hitter / IF. He is 6'1" barefooted and weighs only 140lbs.
As I asked in my OP, where should a good all around player apply focus - Tools (let's say my son has 2) or "all around"? Layman's terms, concentrate on his bat speed and arm speed or stick with an all around workout which is what we've traditionally done. Since everyone that talks to us speaks in tools, I was wondering if we needed a course correction.
I am also a coach of HS aged kids, so I was wondering if I might need a course correction as well.
Thanks again!
Assuming your 2018 is a position player, I say keep getting better at everything, but focus on hitting. That might mean more reps in the cage, more ABs against good pitching, professional instruction, and especially a fitness regimen tailored toward hitting. College PT is all about hitting. There's almost always someone behind you who can field adequately, it's hitting that gets you in the game.
SARGEEMM,
Sounds like he has tools. Develop his all around game. Spend lots of time with hitting and continuing to develop his arm, but improve the other tools.
You said he touches 90, sits 87-88 and is on JV? Well, that sure doesn't happen every day. Touching 90 as a soph is definitely a tool worth developing if he likes to pitch. Is he getting good P instruction? I've seen a handful of guys who can throw that hard and have some control issues but not enough to be designated to JV with that velo.
JV stats have VERY little meaning. If he is in a really strong program and league and he is excelling vs his peers and competitors, that is an indicator.
Most players with college aspirations don't aspire to play with a low level losing program. Once those colleges are eliminated, almost every college player was a true standout (First Team all-league, all county, all state, etc.) in his area, not just "overall better than peers maybe".
Nearly through his sophomore HS season, his general strengths and weaknesses as well as any "plus tool" have most likely already emerged. He should continue refining his strengths and improving his weaknesses.
Touching 90 and on JV? Did I ask about that already?
A soph has time to improve every aspect of his game. The focus should be on becoming the best high school and travel player he can be. Then let the chips fall where they may. Obviously a kid who runs extremely fast gets noticed as soon as he runs the sixty. Kids with bat speed who hit hard line drives get noticed. Pitchers who throw hard get noticed. But don't ignore developing a tool. Be the best player you can be.
cabbagedad posted:You said he touches 90, sits 87-88 and is on JV? Well, that sure doesn't happen every day. Touching 90 as a soph is definitely a tool worth developing if he likes to pitch. Is he getting good P instruction? I've seen a handful of guys who can throw that hard and have some control issues but not enough to be designated to JV with that velo.
Touching 90 and on JV? Did I ask about that already?
In our area, anyone throwing that velo should already committed to D1 colleges (unless, of course, all pitches are wild pitches.) If my kid is throwing 90, forget other tools, I'll develop his pitching skill and go for the D1 scholarships.
If well rounded means average on all fronts, I would take the plus tools.
There is so much specialization at the HS level out here, my son has been afraid to embrace pitching. He wants to hit. Pitching is fun to him, but he wants to play everyday. With that in mind, we ignore pitching (not throwing, he works on arm strength)... and yes, it shows. He's not crazy wild or anything, but he's walking 1 per inning as the closer. So no, he doesn't have a pitching coach yet, but he's gonna get one. Funny, the 90 always comes out if he has to go 2 innings. Hasn't broken 88 in his first inning yet.
I pitched decent D1 20+ years ago (never broke 90 tho), but he's had me so focused on hitting and fielding, I'm dang near useless as his pitching coach. But like several of you have said, that's a big number to us so I'm going to be getting him some help. He just made a mlb scout team so I'm hoping they have a good resource this summer to take advantage of.
Thanks again for the replies.
cabbagedad posted:You said he touches 90, sits 87-88 and is on JV? Well, that sure doesn't happen every day. Touching 90 as a soph is definitely a tool worth developing if he likes to pitch. Is he getting good P instruction? I've seen a handful of guys who can throw that hard and have some control issues but not enough to be designated to JV with that velo.
JV stats have VERY little meaning. If he is in a really strong program and league and he is excelling vs his peers and competitors, that is an indicator.
Most players with college aspirations don't aspire to play with a low level losing program. Once those colleges are eliminated, almost every college player was a true standout (First Team all-league, all county, all state, etc.) in his area, not just "overall better than peers maybe".
Nearly through his sophomore HS season, his general strengths and weaknesses as well as any "plus tool" have most likely already emerged. He should continue refining his strengths and improving his weaknesses.
Touching 90 and on JV? Did I ask about that already?
Crazy to think about, but there are 3 other pitchers on the JV team already "verballed" to a D1. 2018's also, they each sit 85-88 and all are PO's (pitchers only).
He doesn't have to specialize on pitching yet but realistically his arm is probably his best option if he can touch 90 (unless he hits moonshots or is crazy fast). Get him a pitching coach, he can still work on his position play.
cabbagedad posted:You said he touches 90, sits 87-88 and is on JV? Well, that sure doesn't happen every day.
Touching 90 and on JV? Did I ask about that already?
I'm curious too.
bballdad2016 posted:cabbagedad posted:You said he touches 90, sits 87-88 and is on JV? Well, that sure doesn't happen every day.
Touching 90 and on JV? Did I ask about that already?
I'm curious too.
I think this is your answer from an above post: ". . . as a pitcher he walks too many . . ."
There's a junior at 2019Son's high school who touches 90 but never gets to pitch for the same reason.
I am really curious. Just how wild? How many do you have to walk per inning to pitch JV while throwing 90?
IMO - Tools are more important or as I consider measurables.
One tool that isn't measured much, or is hard to separate is fielding the position. Unless you see kids field the position on a regular basis, it is hard to distinguish who is really good or consistent. You can easily get by, unless your're stand out bad. So that is one tool I wouldn't concentrate as much.
Thanks again for the replies.
Like I said, he walks too many but his HS coaches don't really need him to pitch much because they have 3 great PO's eating up all the innings. Because he's always practicing his position though, he never gets bullpens, so his work this year comes when he goes in for an inning or 2 about once per week. So he's not terrible for the amount of work that he gets.. or maybe he is?? He's averaging just over 1 BB/inning, but K's 2 / per. He's also thrown more balls than strikes total on the year. One thing I will say though about the walks, no one hardly ever swings so he has to hit a spot to get a strike. Part of it too, I think, is that his throw from SS across his chest, which he does far more, is much different than his downhill pitching motion.
Hitting-wise. Again, this is what he loves. This is also what most scouts are interested in, his bat speed. It is freakish for 140 lbs - never measured though, not yet. He's taken no less than 100 swings per day since he was 10, so for 6 years straight years rain or shine, sickness or health, he never missed a day. I'm very proud of that. In terms of moonshots, not there yet, but he cleared 380 in the alley and it was still traveling last week. Says he's hitting bombs in practice, but I haven't seen it b/c I'm working. Hit one home run last year but it was only 325.
I'm thinking this is the summer where we find out what he is. I like the advice to stay with the position and I think that's what my son wants most, but I'm like some of you others who think WOW 90, he's a pitcher. This is a great problem to have don't get me wrong, but I'm scared to death I'm going to screw something up.
Everyday Dad posted:IMO - Tools are more important or as I consider measurables.
One tool that isn't measured much, or is hard to separate is fielding the position. Unless you see kids field the position on a regular basis, it is hard to distinguish who is really good or consistent. You can easily get by, unless your're stand out bad. So that is one tool I wouldn't concentrate as much.
I disagree with that. Being able to hit is of course key but a good scout sees a good shortstop instantly if he sees him. Of course you can't judge consistency but you can see quickness, fluidity and arm strength.
A shortstop with lightning quick hands that boots one will be liked more than a guy with OK mechanics who gets the job done but looks robotic and stiff.
If a scout sees 30 seconds of andrelton Simmons fielding (without knowing his name of course) he knows he is D1 material without even seeing his bat.
SargeEmm posted:Thanks again for the replies.
Like I said, he walks too many but his HS coaches don't really need him to pitch much because they have 3 great PO's eating up all the innings. Because he's always practicing his position though, he never gets bullpens, so his work this year comes when he goes in for an inning or 2 about once per week. So he's not terrible for the amount of work that he gets.. or maybe he is?? He's averaging just over 1 BB/inning, but K's 2 / per. He's also thrown more balls than strikes total on the year. One thing I will say though about the walks, no one hardly ever swings so he has to hit a spot to get a strike. Part of it too, I think, is that his throw from SS across his chest, which he does far more, is much different than his downhill pitching motion.
Hitting-wise. Again, this is what he loves. This is also what most scouts are interested in, his bat speed. It is freakish for 140 lbs - never measured though, not yet. He's taken no less than 100 swings per day since he was 10, so for 6 years straight years rain or shine, sickness or health, he never missed a day. I'm very proud of that. In terms of moonshots, not there yet, but he cleared 380 in the alley and it was still traveling last week. Says he's hitting bombs in practice, but I haven't seen it b/c I'm working. Hit one home run last year but it was only 325.
I'm thinking this is the summer where we find out what he is. I like the advice to stay with the position and I think that's what my son wants most, but I'm like some of you others who think WOW 90, he's a pitcher. This is a great problem to have don't get me wrong, but I'm scared to death I'm going to screw something up.
You can keep him playing his position but still get him a pitching lesson a week to clean up his mechanics. That way he always has pitching as a fallback option.
i think the lack of innings is not a concern, if anything that will lessen the wear and tear on his arm.
Thanks Dominic. Folks are trying to sell me on 2 days / week for pitching lessons. Is once during the season sufficient do you guys think?
6'1", 140lbs - I would advocate for a dedicated strength & conditioning program this winter. Lots of eating and lifting with someone who knows what they are doing. Squats, deadlifts, cleans. Long toss.
Everyday Dad posted:IMO - Tools are more important or as I consider measurables.
One tool that isn't measured much, or is hard to separate is fielding the position. Unless you see kids field the position on a regular basis, it is hard to distinguish who is really good or consistent. You can easily get by, unless your're stand out bad. So that is one tool I wouldn't concentrate as much.
Fielding is a tool that most think can improve the most. If you can hit and with power, they will teach ya to field better.
Matt Reiland posted:6'1", 140lbs - I would advocate for a dedicated strength & conditioning program this winter. Lots of eating and lifting with someone who knows what they are doing. Squats, deadlifts, cleans. Long toss.
Weighed him this afternoon, so now let's make that 137 lbs. His summer team dedicates a lot to weights & training, so I'm hoping that fits the bill. But I will definitely put him with someone who knows baseball players needs.
The problem with my son is gaining weight. He's a modest eater, but I can't stuff it down him. He gags on protein shakes... all 173 of them we've tried. But, we got good advice from his Dr. the other day so I thought I'd pass it along... "Ensure Plus" (8oz 350 calories, 13g protein). He just started with them, but he likes them easily enough to drink 2 per day. Any other suggestions for a picky eater trying to gain?
Cheesecake
Spoonfuls of peanut butter, chocolate milk.
But at the end of the day, some people are just thin. And others, well, look like a lot of us posters.
My kid is 15 this summer, 5'8", 155 or so. Thick legs, butt, can jump up and grab and hang on a basketball rim.
Ohhh, sorry....I thought this was the private 2020 or so thread where we talk about our pre HS kids!
Chocolate milk and Peanut butter sandwiches.
Dominik85 posted:Cheesecake
Winner!
SargeEmm posted:Weighed him this afternoon, so now let's make that 137 lbs. His summer team dedicates a lot to weights & training, so I'm hoping that fits the bill. But I will definitely put him with someone who knows baseball players needs.
The problem with my son is gaining weight. He's a modest eater, but I can't stuff it down him. He gags on protein shakes... all 173 of them we've tried. But, we got good advice from his Dr. the other day so I thought I'd pass it along... "Ensure Plus" (8oz 350 calories, 13g protein). He just started with them, but he likes them easily enough to drink 2 per day. Any other suggestions for a picky eater trying to gain?
He likes Ensure Plus, but doesn't like any of the protein shakes? Have you tried mixing a decent tasting chocolate whey protein with whole milk instead of water? Much richer and better tasting, and you get the additional calories of the milk. Put it in the freezer for an hour or two and you get a chocolate milkshake, but with 25g+ of protein.
Someone mentioned peanut butter, which is a good idea. You can also pretty easily mix olive oil into pasta, rice, or potatoes. Do that at each meal and it starts to add up.
Everyone has different metabolisms, so it's tough to give a generic recommendation. But a starting point of 150g/day of protein, 300g/day of carbs, 100g/day of fats equates to about 2700 calories per day. Do you think he would lose or gain weight at 2700 calories? Is he capable of eating that much?
This thread is taking a very different path than the original question, but I just want to add one more thing. Whatever path you go down nutritionally, think long-term as well. Just like focusing on academics so there is something to fall back on when baseball careers are over, have a good sustainable nutrition plan that sets him up for a healthy lifestyle after baseball is over. This isn't wrestling or other sports where obsessive and/or unhealthy eating habits need to happen.
SargeEmm posted:Thanks Dominic. Folks are trying to sell me on 2 days / week for pitching lessons. Is once during the season sufficient do you guys think?
I think it depends on the kid. some Kids Need a higher frequency because they Forget everything after a couple days and then have to r-start next week and some can learn well weekly or even less than that because they are quick learners that do not Need have things told often to learn it.
SargeEmm posted:Matt Reiland posted:6'1", 140lbs - I would advocate for a dedicated strength & conditioning program this winter. Lots of eating and lifting with someone who knows what they are doing. Squats, deadlifts, cleans. Long toss.
Weighed him this afternoon, so now let's make that 137 lbs. His summer team dedicates a lot to weights & training, so I'm hoping that fits the bill. But I will definitely put him with someone who knows baseball players needs.
The problem with my son is gaining weight. He's a modest eater, but I can't stuff it down him. He gags on protein shakes... all 173 of them we've tried. But, we got good advice from his Dr. the other day so I thought I'd pass it along... "Ensure Plus" (8oz 350 calories, 13g protein). He just started with them, but he likes them easily enough to drink 2 per day. Any other suggestions for a picky eater trying to gain?
If he likes ensure plus, you can try 2 other things for even more increased calories / protein. First try 2cal. This is an ensure product 480 calories, and (I think) 18g protein. Then with either Ensure plus or 2cal. Add ice cream. That will add even more calorie / protein.
I work in a retirement village and we do this all the time for elders who do not eat well and either need to gain or stop losing weight. Generally the ice cream addition is a big hit. Even add chocolate syrup or strawberry topping to mix it up, so he won't get flavor fatigue.
Thanks again everyone. I have many takeaways to research, consider and implement.
Final word on Ensure Pluse, if you have tried other ensure products that taste bad, this one is the exception. The others shy away from sugar, this one doesn't so it really does taste better.
