What's causing th epithcing shortage?

What's causing th epithcing shortage?

The great thing about epitching is arms never get tired. The hard drive doesn't even get hot.

Uhhhh....  yes, Kluber has great stuff.  He also lives around 94 with his 4 seam.  When he has had slight mechanical issues and his velo drops to around 92, they are concerned.  As good a pitcher as he is, his effectiveness suffers considerably with just a few ticks below really good velo.

Most MLB success stories of those who have masterful control are about players who came into the league at or above 90 and made adjustments from there.  (Maddux, Bartolo Colon, etc.).  

Generally, you better have a strong velo base to start from.  Otherwise, good hitters at that level will eventually pick up on your stuff and figure out how to just sit on you.

I have had this discussion a lot lately. My son is a really good pitcher but just doesn't have the velocity yet for the "wow"factor. I continue to watch college games with lots of walks, wild pitches , hbp, etc.  my argument is that by the time you figure in the flamethrower mistakes, who cares if he blew the ball past two batters. He walked the lead off guy, threw two wild pitches and runner scores from third on a routine out before he strikes out 2. I think control can improve some, but most of the ones I see that couldn't hit spots before, still can't hit their spots now.  I wish all the kids well but it's frustrating to hear the crowd go wild when a 16 or 17 year old throws a 91 mph fastball, two feet outside when the catcher was set up inside.  Just my rant for the day!!!

There is wow velo...there is accurate velo...and if you find the two together, well that's worth around 7 million dollars!

I honestly don't know this answer, Stats maybe you can help, has there even been a 95+ pitcher who couldn't control a strike that actually learned to control it?  Or is the control supposed to come first and THEN the speed?

I hear it often said they are going after the 95+ pitcher because you can't teach velo like that, but you can teach control....so.....how often are they really able to teach the control?

Wareagle,

 That ooohing and aaahing doesn’t just come from the crowd that is likely made up of very few people with a supposed deep understanding of the game. I can’t tell you how many time I’ve watched scouts get all antsy about a HS pitcher who hit 91 on the gun but the pitch was 5’ from the middle of the strike zone.

 And I truly do understand self-preservation in the form of covering one’s arse to keep his job! I just don’t believe it’s as warranted as people believe.

Stats4Gnats posted:

I was watching the Tribe vs Orioles yesterday and seeing Kluber absolutely overwhelm the Orioles, and a familiar thought crossed my mind. When will it dawn on the powers to be that movement and skill make it possible for a lot more pitchers to have success than those who depend on velocity?

 Yeah yeah, some pitchers make it without blazing gun numbers, but the fireballers still get a lot more opportunities while skill and movement guys who produce success are ignored. Sure seems to me that for all the talk of how movement and skill can be taught, its not something happening a whole lot. Mebbe the shortage of quality pitching is because too much emphasis is placed on velocity rather than outcome.

Yes more pitchers than not never learn control, just like most raw free swingers never develope plate discipline.

However it is a numbers game, they draft 10 guys that throw hard and hope that one of them learns to pitch. Since minor leaguers don't make much money there is little risk for the clubs.

But of course pitchability does play a role with really high picks, for example mckay only throws low 90s but was regarded as a first overall candidate because he is very polished. And likewise some guys throwing 95+ were drafted rather late. The guys who go really early in the draft at least have some pitchabilty in most cases.

Also mlb hitters can hit and they patiently wait for their pitch. Those 85 throwers with command can beat high school hitters but mlb hitters tend to punish those guys.

They also punish the harder throwers but those get enough strikeouts in between to limit the damage.

That is really the point the softer pitchers don't get hit harder but more often. Creating soft contact against mlb hitters consistently is not easy and thus strikeouts are the biggest differentiator.

cabbagedad posted:

Uhhhh....  yes, Kluber has great stuff.  He also lives around 94 with his 4 seam.  When he has had slight mechanical issues and his velo drops to around 92, they are concerned.  As good a pitcher as he is, his effectiveness suffers considerably with just a few ticks below really good velo.

Most MLB success stories of those who have masterful control are about players who came into the league at or above 90 and made adjustments from there.  (Maddux, Bartolo Colon, etc.).  

Generally, you better have a strong velo base to start from.  Otherwise, good hitters at that level will eventually pick up on your stuff and figure out how to just sit on you.

Well, I thought I’d see if I could find anything to prove what you’ve said was true. As you can see below, he threw 10 4SFBs in that game and none were 94+. In fact there were only 2 pitches in the game he threw that were 94+. Looking at the numbers I have to say he sure looked to be at least a “few ticks below really good velo”, so I have to wonder why he was so dominant.

Of course most MLB success stories are about pitchers who came in throwing 90+. That’s what most MLB pitchers throw! So why don’t more pitchers make the adjustment?

I’ve never said having a good velocity base is bad! I’m saying it’s not as necessary for success as many believe it to be.

92 sinker

92.5 sinker

82.4 curve

91.7 4S

86.8 CU

93.5 sinker

88.7 cutter

88.5 cutter

94.2 sinker

93.6 sinker

94.2 sinker

88.0 cutter

92.7 4S

82.9 curve

85.9 cutter

91.1 sinker

93.1 sinker

92.8 4S

83.1 curve

86.2 cutter

91.9 sinker

91.6 sinker

85.4 CU

88.0 cutter

88.2 cutter

89.2 cutter

86.0 CU

87.1 CU

88.9 cutter

93.5 sinker

84.9 curve

90.2 sinker

88.3 cutter

88.2 cutter

92.0 sinker

92.3 4S

92.1 sinker

82.9 curve

84.2 curve

93.1 4S

84 curve

92.9 sinker

92.7 sinker

89.4 cutter

83.7 curve

92.4 4S

93.8 sinker

92.7 sinker

83.3 curve

88.2 cutter

93.6 sinker

89.9 cutter

91.2 sinker

91.7 sinker

84.1 curve

84.2 curve

90.5 sinker

82.4 curve

92.3 sinker

91.1 sinker

92.1 sinker

93.1 sinker

85.0 curve

82.6 curve

82.1 curve

92.9 4S

88.4 cutter

87.4 cutter

92.6 sinker

84.7 curve

93.4 sinker

93.0 sinker

84.7 curve

87.5 cutter

89.3 cutter

87.8 cutter

91.4 sinker

83.8 curve

93.8 4S

85.0 curve

87.8 cutter

84.9 curve

91.7 sinker

88.1 cutter

92.1 sinker

91.5 sinker

83.7 curve

93.4 4S

83.7 curve

90.0 cutter

85.1 CU

89.5 cutter

89.8 cutter

9^th inning

89.1 cutter

83.6 curve

90.5 cutter

83.8 curve    KO

89.1 cutter

83.6 curve

90.5 cutter

83.8 curve  KO

87.8 cutter

93.2 cutter

83.8 curve

89.6 cutter

84.6 curve

88.9 cutter   KO

Go to a showcase - the oohs and ahhs for the kid w/ velo happen.  If they cannot find the strike zone, there's too many coaches that believe they can teach control, but getting someone to commit to the workout program to increase velo is harder, so they chase the velo guy...  My middle son faced 6 batters at a showcase in about 10-15 pitches and even though he got 6 outs, he wasn't considered because his velo was too low. Next pitcher up throws much harder - lasts about 30 pitches, a few walks, hit batters, balls to the backstop - he's got coaches talking to him afterwards and giving him advice. My youngest son increased his velo by workout program and some mechanics advice he got from a coach while visiting a school that wouldn't look at you unless you were upper 80's, low 90s. It wasn't easy and the accuracy suffered at times as well. It probably also had to do with why he tore his labrum.

Now put some wood bats in the hands of every college kid (money problem aside) and I wonder how many coaches would start chasing the pitchers whose style causes broken off handles as opposed to a "flare" (or duck snort as one coach at a showcase called it) because the batter has a metal bat in their hands.  As a pitchers father, metal bats are a contributing factor to why location and lower velo guys aren't getting their opportunity. Maybe the infielders would commit a few less errors too - nothing like the rockets that can come off those bats. 

Metal bats are the issue? Are you familiar with BBCOR?

94mph sinker. There's your answer.  How does anyone even hit that?  

JohnF posted:

Now put some wood bats in the hands of every college kid (money problem aside) and I wonder how many coaches would start chasing the pitchers whose style causes broken off handles as opposed to a "flare" (or duck snort as one coach at a showcase called it) because the batter has a metal bat in their hands.  As a pitchers father, metal bats are a contributing factor to why location and lower velo guys aren't getting their opportunity. Maybe the infielders would commit a few less errors too - nothing like the rockets that can come off those bats. 

I don't get it....my son pitches and regardless of if it's to wood or metal he still gets the dribbles back to him, or the super duper high up pop ups, or the fouls that are spinning and hard to catch...etc.  They have been in both wood and metal tourneys lately and I see less long balls with wood, but that's about it.

I can't even understand how you can argue not needing velocity with your example.  A guy throwing 94 in a game.  You do understand his max effort velocity is much greater than 94 correct?  Also, you do understand a hitter that has to be prepared (consciously or subconsciously) to hit 94 makes all those other pitches that more effective?  

Hahaha.... glad you took up a whole page to try to illustrate that my number may (or may not) be off by 1 MPH.  Several sinkers were mid 93's/ low 94's.  You do realize that a guy throwing a 93 MPH cutter and 93 MPH sinker is still throwing with a good velo base, right?  You do realize that he is just a handful of starts back from the DL but still throwing pretty hard, right?  In what book is sitting 93 not good velo?  

Here is an excerpt from an MLB piece last year that spells out that he lived at 94+ with his 4-seam when he was most effective... at the time of the article, he was struggling with his mechanics and they were analyzing what adjustments needed to be made to recover that earlier velo...  The chart spells out that he lived 93-95 with his 4-seam from '14 thru early '16.   So, so much for not being able to find anything to prove what I said was true.

"During Sunday's 6-0 loss to New York, Kluber allowed six runs on seven hits in the first two innings and then no runs on two hits for the next four frames. Granted, defensive missteps in the second paved the way for three runs for the Mets, but Kluber was not at his best to that point, either. New York attacked his fastball, which was coming in slower than usual for the righty.

View image on Twitter

 

 

So far this season, Kluber is averaging 92.6 mph with his sinker, which is roughly a 1-mph decrease from April 2015 (93.7) and April 2014 (93.6). On Sunday, the right-hander's sinker came in at 92.4 mph on average, while his cutter (88.3) and curveball (82.8) were also down from previous seasons. During his American League Cy Young Award-winning season in '14, Kluber averaged 94.2 mph (sinker), 89.6 mph (cutter) and 83.5 (curve) on those three pitches."

Let's simplify...

Your point - "movement and skill make it possible for a lot more pitchers to have success than those who depend on velocity?"  There is not a person in the room that wouldn't interpret this to mean that a guy without generally accepted good velo can have some regular degree of success at the MLB level.

You used Kluber as an example.

My point - Kluber has very good command and movement.  But he also has good velo.  Generally, you better have a strong velo base to start from.  Otherwise, good hitters at that level will eventually pick up on your stuff and figure out how to just sit on you.

But, as always, you want to dig into minutia and argue me being off 1 MPH to somehow make your point right.  HE HAS GOOD VELO!!!  92.7, 94.4, both still good.  End of story.  

I know how this goes with you... you will ignore any valid top line points and find another minutia point to fixate on.  So, I will just bow out of this one now.

real green posted:

I can't even understand how you can argue not needing velocity with your example.  A guy throwing 94 in a game.  You do understand his max effort velocity is much greater than 94 correct?  Also, you do understand a hitter that has to be prepared (consciously or subconsciously) to hit 94 makes all those other pitches that more effective?  

With Craig Kimbrel's fastball he should be banned from throwing his nasty slider. Never mind. I was thinking like a hitter. Now I'm back to thinking like a Red Sox fan. I love it!

CaCO3Girl posted:

…I honestly don't know this answer, Stats maybe you can help, has there even been a 95+ pitcher who couldn't control a strike that actually learned to control it?  Or is the control supposed to come first and THEN the speed?

There’s a whole lot of folks who believe the velocity has to come before the control or it will never reach its full potential. Then there’s those of us who believe the control will bring success until the physical development makes the velocity easier to attain. But what causes problems is when looking into the future and trying to control it forces velocity into the issue. It’s just a matter of philosophies.

I sure don’t know either, but I suspect it that when it happens, it’s because the pitcher figgered out he had to back off to gain control.

I hear it often said they are going after the 95+ pitcher because you can't teach velo like that, but you can teach control....so.....how often are they really able to teach the control?

I hear the same thing, but I sure don’t see much of it in practice. These are the only two examples of high draft picks I know directly. The 1^st was drafted 113^th based on his 6’3 frame and 94+ velo as a Jr. He was known as one of those pitchers who had convenient control issues and got a lot of HS kids out. 4 years later he was back at home looking for a job.

The 2^nd was drafted 9^th overall so you know how hard he was throwing. He threw with a lot more control, but was still not exactly pin-point with his pitches. Here’s what Rotowire said about him in the middle of May. “… has been struggling to fully let loose his fastball in extended spring training, as he is gearing down to guide the ball into the zone, Baseball America reports.”

Luckily he’s only 18 and has a lot of time to prove himself, so we’ll see. But it always interests me when a player his highly touted because of his velo, then the 1^st thing they try to do is teach him control by having him dial it back. Seems to me, especially in young kids they’d be ahead of the game by stressing control 1^st and letting him grow into his velocity because control is simply not an easy thing to attain.

CaCO3Girl posted:

There is wow velo...there is accurate velo...and if you find the two together, well that's worth around 7 million dollars!

I honestly don't know this answer, Stats maybe you can help, has there even been a 95+ pitcher who couldn't control a strike that actually learned to control it?  Or is the control supposed to come first and THEN the speed?

I hear it often said they are going after the 95+ pitcher because you can't teach velo like that, but you can teach control....so.....how often are they really able to teach the control?

Randy Johnson

Here is another factor not yet mentioned.  I do not agree that velocity and control have ANY correlation.  I believe MAX effort impacts control not velocity.  

I'm just going to throw this out there, but aren't there stats of MLB batting averages against specific velos and pitch types?

isn't that the touchstone: how the average batter does against each specified pitch type? 

real green posted:

Here is another factor not yet mentioned.  I do not agree that velocity and control have ANY correlation.  I believe MAX effort impacts control not velocity.  

aka overthrowing

cabbagedad posted:

Hahaha.... glad you took up a whole page to try to illustrate that my number may (or may not) be off by 1 MPH.  Several sinkers were mid 93's/ low 94's.  You do realize that a guy throwing a 93 MPH cutter and 93 MPH sinker is still throwing with a good velo base, right?  You do realize that he is just a handful of starts back from the DL but still throwing pretty hard, right?  In what book is sitting 93 not good velo?  

   

Here is an excerpt from an MLB piece last year that spells out that he lived at 94+ with his 4-seam when he was most effective... at the time of the article, he was struggling with his mechanics and they were analyzing what adjustments needed to be made to recover that earlier velo...  The chart spells out that he lived 93-95 with his 4-seam from '14 thru early '16.   So, so much for not being able to find anything to prove what I said was true.

 

 

"During Sunday's 6-0 loss to New York, Kluber allowed six runs on seven hits in the first two innings and then no runs on two hits for the next four frames. Granted, defensive missteps in the second paved the way for three runs for the Mets, but Kluber was not at his best to that point, either. New York attacked his fastball, which was coming in slower than usual for the righty.

 

View image on Twitter

 

 

 

So far this season, Kluber is averaging 92.6 mph with his sinker, which is roughly a 1-mph decrease from April 2015 (93.7) and April 2014 (93.6). On Sunday, the right-hander's sinker came in at 92.4 mph on average, while his cutter (88.3) and curveball (82.8) were also down from previous seasons. During his American League Cy Young Award-winning season in '14, Kluber averaged 94.2 mph (sinker), 89.6 mph (cutter) and 83.5 (curve) on those three pitches."

 

Let's simplify...

Your point - "movement and skill make it possible for a lot more pitchers to have success than those who depend on velocity?"  There is not a person in the room that wouldn't interpret this to mean that a guy without generally accepted good velo can have some regular degree of success at the MLB level.

You used Kluber as an example.

My point - Kluber has very good command and movement.  But he also has good velo.  Generally, you better have a strong velo base to start from.  Otherwise, good hitters at that level will eventually pick up on your stuff and figure out how to just sit on you.

But, as always, you want to dig into minutia and argue me being off 1 MPH to somehow make your point right.  HE HAS GOOD VELO!!!  92.7, 94.4, both still good.  End of story.  

I know how this goes with you... you will ignore any valid top line points and find another minutia point to fixate on.  So, I will just bow out of this one now.

Why would you even bother?

cabbagedad posted:

Hahaha.... glad you took up a whole page to try to illustrate that my number may (or may not) be off by 1 MPH.  Several sinkers were mid 93's/ low 94's.  You do realize that a guy throwing a 93 MPH cutter and 93 MPH sinker is still throwing with a good velo base, right?  You do realize that he is just a handful of starts back from the DL but still throwing pretty hard, right?  In what book is sitting 93 not good velo?  

The reason I did it was to illustrate that not you specifically, but many  people throw numbers out there without ever checking their veracity. And FWIW, I've watched every Indians' game this season and all but a couple dozen over the last 10 years, so I'm well aware of Kluber's journey.

You’re the one who said “He also lives around 94 with his 4 seam.  When he has had slight mechanical issues and his velo drops to around 92, they are concerned.  As good a pitcher as he is, his effectiveness suffers considerably with just a few ticks below really good velo.

That may well be what you believe is true, but it sure doesn’t coincide with their manager or pitching coach.

   Here is an excerpt from an MLB piece last year that spells out that he lived at 94+ with his 4-seam when he was most effective... at the time of the article, he was struggling with his mechanics and they were analyzing what adjustments needed to be made to recover that earlier velo...  The chart spells out that he lived 93-95 with his 4-seam from '14 thru early '16.   So, so much for not being able to find anything to prove what I said was true.

 What you said was what someone else said was true, assuming pitchers who don’t throw with the same velocity as when they were the most successful can’t or won’t have success. He sure looked pretty successful the last time he pitched.

 Let's simplify...

Your point - "movement and skill make it possible for a lot more pitchers to have success than those who depend on velocity?"  There is not a person in the room that wouldn't interpret this to mean that a guy without generally accepted good velo can have some regular degree of success at the MLB level.

Go back and reread the OP without prejudice of any kind if you can. As usual, because of something personal, you’ve completely twisted what I said to mean something you think I said. All I meant was, there are one Hell of a lot of pitchers who can have success at any given level without having velocity much higher than “normal”.

You used Kluber as an example.

My point - Kluber has very good command and movement.  But he also has good velo.  Generally, you better have a strong velo base to start from.  Otherwise, good hitters at that level will eventually pick up on your stuff and figure out how to just sit on you.

But, as always, you want to dig into minutia and argue me being off 1 MPH to somehow make your point right.  HE HAS GOOD VELO!!!  92.7, 94.4, both still good.  End of story.  

I know how this goes with you... you will ignore any valid top line points and find another minutia point to fixate on.  So, I will just bow out of this one now.

You always make it personal when I disagree with you, but it never is, at least from me. You made a statement about Kluber’s 4SFB and I put up numbers showing your statement wasn’t accurate. Simple as that. I didn’t say you were a liar or question your integrity. My point was people often make statements that aren’t accurate and put the numbers from his last game up as proof you don’t need to throw more than 94 to have great success at the ML level. Nothing personal at all.

I've watched every Indians' game this season and all but a couple dozen over the last 10 years ...

Oh, the humanity! This is up there with watching the Hindenburg crash.

Kluber came into the league throwing 97 mph and Ill guarantee you thats what go him noticed at the time.   When he started featuring his 2 seam more is when he got really good.  

gunner34 posted:

Kluber came into the league throwing 97 mph and Ill guarantee you thats what go him noticed at the time.   When he started featuring his 2 seam more is when he got really good.  

No argument here about the sequence of events. All I’m saying is, common sense dictates that since there are a lot of pitchers who don’t have that 97 but may well be able to perform equally well with the things that made him really good, it doesn’t make sense to just ignore them.

I don't get why you can't understand what it means to throw a 2 seam 93-94.  Take that pitch away and he will have less success.  It changes everything.  

As an Orioles fan I believe his performance was an outlier. He didn't need his 94 mph four seam or his 92-93 two seam. He probably could have stuck with the 85 mph straight warm up throws and done just as well. Pointing out the often misleading conclusions of incomplete statistical analysis. The analyst must take into account it was the bleeping Orioles.

I hope they get well soon.

Go Os!

Hahaha... I dunno Ted, Tomlin disproved your theory the next day     Congrats on new-found health.

He absolutely can't afford to be anything but razor sharp with his locations because, well, he doesn't have velocity to fall back on - to keep the hitter honest or off balance.  It's sit or sit longer... anything on the white went bye bye.  

Well, If he can fix Bundy, Gausmann and the rest of the staff we might have something. I think they are back to .500, so its not all that bad.

I will add that I think one of the big draws of velocity is the entertainment factor. It is fun to have your heros seem super human. To throw harder than is easily achievable. I think a guy with 92-93 and location with plus off speed is really capable of competing day in and day out. I know Maddux and others once had superior velocity but many are very good with less than 94. On the flip side I think Bauer proves that the best movement and plus velocity without location makes an average pitcher. (I really like him outside of the stupid drone event during the most important time of his career.)

RJM posted:

real green posted:

I can't even understand how you can argue not needing velocity with your example.  A guy throwing 94 in a game.  You do understand his max effort velocity is much greater than 94 correct?  Also, you do understand a hitter that has to be prepared (consciously or subconsciously) to hit 94 makes all those other pitches that more effective?  

With Craig Kimbrel's fastball he should be banned from throwing his nasty slider. Never mind. I was thinking like a hitter. Now I'm back to thinking like a Red Sox fan. I love it!

Astros hitters agree with the ban.  Makes them do stupid things in the 7th and 8th.

Ted22 posted:

I will add that I think one of the big draws of velocity is the entertainment factor. It is fun to have your heros seem super human. To throw harder than is easily achievable. I think a guy with 92-93 and location with plus off speed is really capable of competing day in and day out. I know Maddux and others once had superior velocity but many are very good with less than 94. On the flip side I think Bauer proves that the best movement and plus velocity without location makes an average pitcher. (I really like him outside of the stupid drone event during the most important time of his career.)

I think you hit the nail on the head with the “entertainment factor”, and it’s the same with hitters and HRs.

 I also think you’re correct about a starter being able to compete day in and day out with less than 94.

 Being a Tribe fan I couldn’t agree more with what you aid about Bauer. Great velocity +  great movement + dumb as a rock and hardheaded = average pitcher.

Trevor Bauer skipped his senior year in HS to head to UCLA where he was a mechanical engineering major.  Part of his struggles, both social and with his game, are attributed to the fact that his analytical mind is so far beyond that of normal human beings.  He over-analyzes to the Nth degree. 

This, from a USA Today piece on Bauer a few years back...

"...And he can explain the science, methodology and physiology of his pitching mechanics.

"He's got a lot of stuff in that head of his," says veteran pitcher Brett Myers. "I sat down with him (Monday) to talk about his mechanics, and he was talking about physics, chemical reactors and biochemistry crap, and body creating a force. I'm like, 'What the hell?' I couldn't even pronounce the words he's saying.

"But you know what, he's completely different than what you heard about him. You hear he's this rude guy, or stuck in his ways. He was great. He gave me the respect of listening to me.

"I don't know who gives him all of the ideas, but he's a whole lot smarter than me or you. I don't know if I could think that much." "

Ehhhh, dumb as a rock, not so much.

cabbagedad posted:

Trevor Bauer skipped his senior year in HS to head to UCLA where he was a mechanical engineering major.  Part of his struggles, both social and with his game, are attributed to the fact that his analytical mind is so far beyond that of normal human beings.  He over-analyzes to the Nth degree. 

This, from a USA Today piece on Bauer a few years back...

"...And he can explain the science, methodology and physiology of his pitching mechanics.

"He's got a lot of stuff in that head of his," says veteran pitcher Brett Myers. "I sat down with him (Monday) to talk about his mechanics, and he was talking about physics, chemical reactors and biochemistry crap, and body creating a force. I'm like, 'What the hell?' I couldn't even pronounce the words he's saying.

"But you know what, he's completely different than what you heard about him. You hear he's this rude guy, or stuck in his ways. He was great. He gave me the respect of listening to me.

"I don't know who gives him all of the ideas, but he's a whole lot smarter than me or you. I don't know if I could think that much." "

Ehhhh, dumb as a rock, not so much.

If he's so smart and has all the tools, why does he keep doing the same thing over and over again. Mebbe its not low intelligence. Mebbe its insanity.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

Being super smart does not necessarily mean that he has common sense.  Maybe he is unable to apply his knowledge?

Stats4Gnats posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Trevor Bauer skipped his senior year in HS to head to UCLA where he was a mechanical engineering major.  Part of his struggles, both social and with his game, are attributed to the fact that his analytical mind is so far beyond that of normal human beings.  He over-analyzes to the Nth degree. 

This, from a USA Today piece on Bauer a few years back...

"...And he can explain the science, methodology and physiology of his pitching mechanics.

"He's got a lot of stuff in that head of his," says veteran pitcher Brett Myers. "I sat down with him (Monday) to talk about his mechanics, and he was talking about physics, chemical reactors and biochemistry crap, and body creating a force. I'm like, 'What the hell?' I couldn't even pronounce the words he's saying.

"But you know what, he's completely different than what you heard about him. You hear he's this rude guy, or stuck in his ways. He was great. He gave me the respect of listening to me.

"I don't know who gives him all of the ideas, but he's a whole lot smarter than me or you. I don't know if I could think that much." "

Ehhhh, dumb as a rock, not so much.

If he's so smart and has all the tools, why does he keep doing the same thing over and over again. Mebbe its not low intelligence. Mebbe its insanity.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/qu...lberteins133991.html

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/qu...lberteins133991.html

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/qu...lberteins133991.html

You didn't see me arguing the hard headed part.   His struggles with PC's, HC's and himself are well documented - stems largely, I think, from the fact that he is so intelligent.  But, boy, when he has all his pitches working, there aren't many nastier.  Just doesn't happen as consistently with him as with many other MLB rotation guys.

Bauer is very smart and I very much respect the time and effort he puts into sharing his knowledge. He caught flak from some people for his pitching videos but he answers a lot of questions from kids and adults alike. I prefer that to hearing about him shooting up a strip club. He just needs the same thing all great pitchers need and that is experience. He used his smarts and work ethic to take a less than super athletic body and become the 3rd pick overall. Now he just needs to use his smarts and experience to create enough feel to locate and get a ground ball once in a while. And also to wear adequate hand protection while playing with his drone during the post season.

Madison Bumgarner is probably a better example.  He used to throw mid-upper 90s, but became dominant going down to low 90s.  Of course he's just as dumb if not dumber than Bauer, injuring himself after falling off a dirt bike. :facepalm: 

JMO - Got to think speed is more important at the lower levels and movement and location are more important at the higher levels

Everyday Dad posted:

JMO - Got to think speed is more important at the lower levels and movement and location are more important at the higher levels

I dug into the archives of my data to see the distribution of innings each season for the HSV teams I was scoring for. See attached.

As I looked over the list, it was striking to me the different styles of the pitchers who got the most innings. I never track movement, location, or velocity, but my eyeball guess is pitchers with movement and location were far and above the recipient of the most innings.

Look at 2010 and 2011. It isn’t hard to find justification for the kid getting the most innings in 2010, but I’ll bet you can guess why he got the most in 2011 with much worse numbers.