Who develops players? It depends on age.

I am coming over from the "politics" thread also.  I personally think that for 90% of kids, the 6-12 "development" stage is the most important.  Dads and local coaches are oftentimes perfect.  The kid's friends, especially in the neighborhood, are also important (get them outdoors doing something).  The best fit is not always the kid's own dad nor is an overbearing coach.  In the world of ever-increasing travel ball, it can become problematic.  Local leagues are sometimes left with limited talent and the travel ball kids all seem to migrate to personal instruction (9-12 years especially).  As has been pointed out many times on this board, relative skill at 9 years of age means little to nothing (although some base level of skills training will help prevent injury).  As I pointed out on the "politics" thread, my 2017 was somewhat of a late bloomer but had the benefit of good local teams and then moved onto a decent travel team which was all local and stressed practice time on the field.  Some kids who went early to more "focused" travel teams either failed to continue improving (peaked early) or simply got burnt out.  jp24's comment on 6-12 includes "love for the game" and I truly believe this has to be fostered.  The kid will eventually decide if they love the game but the easisit way for them to turn away is by having parents allowing a sense of anxiety or pressure to enter into the game at this age.

 

As for development during later years, I will defer to those already having gone through one or two cycles.  I just feel very fortunate we made it through the 6-12 age range relatively unscathed with what appears to be a real love for the game.

jp wrote Ages 6-12 -- It's really important to develop fundamentally sound skills and a love for the game. Dads and good local coaches are perfect.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with the first sentence, it should be fun.  But not all Dad's and local coaches have the baseball knowledge to teach correct fundamentals.  Financial means aside, it's ok to take a couple lessons from a pro at 10,11, 12.  To be able have basic hit and throw mechanics is important.

 

I think the love of the game thing is often overdone.  Of course it needs to be there for success through high school and college.  But I think many kids do not have a love for the game, because they lack basic mechanics and do not have success in the game.  

Lol.  Was wondering how long we would just continue hijacking that thread!  Thanks for starting a new one cause I think its an important question.   I am a firm believer in reps are the best teacher/developer.  Thousands and thousands of reps.  And the majority of the burden is on the player themselves.  Next the parents.  Agree with what some others have said, high school should be for fine tuning not developing.  With all due respect if you don't have the basics down by high school that's probably an issue.

I hear you Go44dad. Clearly some dads should just watch and support. And that's OK. But it doesn't take much to teach kids how to run to first base, catch a ball etc.

 

When I coached my son in t-ball, I had the whole team convinced that eye-black and bubble gum gave them an edge. And believe me ... when the showed up at the park with black smeared down to their chins, and dived into that bucket of double bubble I always had on hand, it was clear: They believed it!

 

As to developing a love for the game: Since day 1, that has been and will forever remain my No. 1 goal for JP. It ends for everyone; it's just a matter of when. I just hope to some day watch or listen to a Cardinal game with my grand kids, because their dad shared his love of the game.

I wonder how many players who make it to the pro's were self-motivated enough to do thousands and thousands of reps on their own as young players, joliet. I've read about many who didn't until they got to 16-17 ... but were still very successful. 

 

And while I know from your previous posts that you're a great coach and dad, I'm not like you, inasmuch as I CANNOT watch videos and see what JP is doing differently from an MLB hitter. So I've tended to want him to do his reps in front of real coaches, rather than lock in on bad habits with me. Point is -- reps are only as good as they are done properly, right? And no 6-12 year old kid needs to be doing reps.

They can do 10,000 reps wrong and be good or 1000 reps correctly and be great.

       
       
Funny you mention that.  Every time I run in to somebody new who playd minor or major league baseball I ask them what they dis as kids.  How much focus they had etc.  And you are correct you get a variety of answers.  A friend of mine who pitched about 9 years in the bigs said he was throwing a ball constantly.  Another guy from my school who had a much longer and better career didn't do as much cause he was a three sport star and things came naturally for him.  Others are like you described fairly non committal til high school.  So there are certainly many roads taken.  For my son he has a chance I think to play college someday.  Pros is not even in the conversation.   But things don't come naturally for him so I believe he needs those reps cause he has to outwork that kid who is a natural.  Mine is 13 outside of your 6 to 12 range so its reps away!  Lol.

My son for some reason fell in love with the game at an extremely young age of 4. He was able to start T ball early somehow because he always seemed to be able to naturally throw, catch and hit.

I never really played other then a little sandlot with 3 guys on a side. So I did not know much at all.

He started Little League and had GREAT coaches, some of whom had played MiLB, so he was getting good stuff.

I worked with him and we threw every day. I would also put him near the back fence and throw one hoppers at him for an hour, and got him to dive for balls.

We have a pool with a diving board and I would throw tennis balls at him as he dove off the board and he would try to catch them just before they would hit the water. He got so good at that that I began throwing two tennis balls at the same time trying to keep them close to each other and he would dive in the pool and catch one in each hand.

By the time he was 10 I was taking him to Tampa 80 miles away every week for hitting lessons. By the time he was 16 I was taking him weekly to Lakeland, 90 miles away for fielding and hitting.

He always has had an insatiable desire to play ball, and still seems his happiest while on a baseball diamond.

 

Or Fishing, which we still get to do together.

Brother, me and you are IDENTICAL dads. Only thing I'd add is, we loved me throwing balls into the trampoline, too. My goal was to get it to hit the pad; his was to catch it.

 

God, I miss that.

JP has a pretty good breakdown.  When the kids hit 13, dads suddenly become bumbling idiots and the kid knows everything.  It's a good time for a new coach. 

 

I do, however, think that development starts young.  I could only take my kid so far.  We got lucky and joined a team at 10 coached by a dad you used to play in college.  More importantly, he had baseball in his blood.  He introduced my kid to a catching coach that he still sees 5 years later.  These guys gave him a foundation to build on.  Not just skills like throwing and fielding but hard work, discipline, dedication and how to look the part.  When these kids are in a group of players from other teams, you can see the difference.  That coach left the following year and it just wasn't the same.  By 14 we found the next coach who could make a difference.  A younger version of the first.  It fits JP's model.  Focus on the finer points.   

 

Bottom line though, the kid has to put the work in. 

JP,

 

Everybody is going to have different experiences, levels of coaching and personal development rates.  I put this together from personal experience as I reflected on my oldest son's coaches and development.  In our case, it was really the 10-14 age group head coach that was probably his biggest influence in developing my son.  This coach was also part of that 15-18 year coaching staff for national travel team that had tremendous success.  This coach understood exactly what buttons to push with my son.  Never yelled, mentored, always used logic when talking to my son and understood his inner talents.

 

5-9 years old – Fundamentals and fun.  Rec leagues, Little League.  Dads and enthusiastic local coaches who know the game

         

10-14 years old – Rec baseball + Travel baseball intro.  Some kids play both travel and local rec leagues.  Experienced travel coaches who allow their players to develop and try different things while challenging their team to to play the best.  We trained all of our travel players to pitch whether they wanted it or not.  This helped them understand more than one position and helped them to the next level (high school).  This is where I think there was a lot of success and an understanding that some of the players could play in college.  They knew they'd make their high school team, and the coaches gave them the tools, opportunities  and motivation to play beyond high school. 

 

15-18 years old – High school baseball and travel baseball.  It is what you make it, and more of the development responsibility falls on the player.  If you get a great high school and a travel coach who knows the game and has a recruitment network then you are ahead of the game.  Learn the finer points of the game,  how to train for your sport, how to win and how to be a true teammate.

 

18+ - Coaches that know how to motivate, teach, mentor and kick you in the pants when you need it.  Position coaches relationship becomes extremely important.  Are they teaching the player “their way” or teaching the player how to be better “his way”?  These are the much finer points to the higher level and higher levels beyond this, but I haven’t seen (personally) them beyond the college game

 

JMO.

 These are great stories, but isn't it crazy how some people will say that this is over the top? Too much baseball or even ...Hey your gonna burn them out!

 All I see is dads that love their boy's and taking them where they need to go to get better.

 My wife would tell me to quit throwing the ball in the house because your gonna break something, I never understood why she had so many breakables in the house where we play baseball!

Couple more thoughts...  first I wish youth 'coaches' (really just fellow parents) would just calm down a bit and do a lot more observation and a lot less talking.  You don't always have to be 'coaching'.  JP you asked the question is a coach teaching 'their way' or helping the player be better 'his way'.  This is really a much more complex question than it may at first appear.  I can't stand the micro managers who want a kid set up EXACTLY this way and bring out the cookie cutter for everyone.  But on the other had players and parents alike who don't realize there are some absolutes are equally frustrating.   And perhaps absolutes should be called into question at times (yes I realize technically that means they are not absolutes but work with me on this) as there are those like clayton kershaw who does most things wrong; are you going to change him?  But if you are not at a level of greatness then the absolutes apply to you.  Take a look at hitters at the point of contact.  Try to find pictures of a bunch of eclectic hitters hitting a pitch in the same location for a great comparison.  You will find they all look nearly identical, power hitters and punch and judy hitters alike.  Difference between a power hitter and a singles hitter is bat speed and bat path.  Singles hitters tend to have slightly lower bat speeds and a bat path upward angle between 5 and 10 degrees.  Power hitters are between 10 to 20 degree uppercut.  Pitching is a little different and does allow for more individualism but there are still definite do's and don'ts.  Baseball is not a simple game.  You have to be very careful who you trust to instruct your kid.  And I believe maybe the worst thing ever is a lot of voices.  Sometimes you just have to do your research do the best you can to make a decision and take a leap of faith.  For example when it comes to whose workout to do.  I know less than nothing about strength and fitness.  I read a whole bunch and settled on the Cressey stuff (with apologies to one of our posters here...  but I did purchase your workout online and my son did use that for a bit).  Do I know it to be the right choice?  Not really but you can't improve by continually experimenting and jumping all over the place.  Sorry for the long post.  A lot of thoughts today I guess!

Credit fenway for the "his way" vs "their way" ... referring to 18+, joliet.

 

I do think fenway's breakdown is probably a little more broadly accurate than my original -- and in fact, it tracks with how jp went through baseball. But while these developmental stages are general, they're not, as you point out joliet, absolute.

 

A lot of people here, for example, would strongly counsel against taking a 9U team from South Texas to Kansas City for a USSSA "World Series." And they'd be right, in many cases. But in hindsight, those trips between 9 and 13 did help pave the way for the next phase, in my son's case at least. 

 

And importantly, even though it was competitive baseball for that age, we still made time to go fishing while there.

 

 

 

 

"And I believe maybe the worst thing ever is a lot of voices." - joliet

 

Amen. So many well-meaning men seem compelled to want to offer players unsolicited "coaching" on this or that. And while it's a player's job to sift through it all, I think the harm is that it invariably gives them more to think about -- and not in a good way.

I didn't have any coaching that made a fundamental difference until high school. In high school the pitching coach was a former player with two years minor league experience. Before high school skills came from playing, playing and playing before the evening organized baseball game or practice.

 

My LL coach was great because he was fun and we won the league. He was good at selecting players. Seven players from my 12yo year went on to high school baseball. All seven were college athletes (five baseball). When I was fourteen I asked him how he picked his team. He said after the obvious baseball choices he took kids who were athletic and not tense.

 

My Babe Ruth coach was a drunk who always had beer on his breath. He was only coaching so his kids could start. They stunk. My fifteen year old season I got the rest of the team behind me to tell the coach if his kids start at short and center, we quit.

 

My daughter managed to endure me from 7/8 machine pitch all the way through softball showcase ball. I was an assistant from 12u through showcase. She never did any extra work away from practice until summer after 8th grade. I didn't even consider the possibility she could play college ball until freshman year of high school. Once in high school softball became a year round effort despite playing two other sports.

 

I was the head coach for my son from 7/8 machine pitch through 16u (post freshman year). The last season he started tuning me out. As I stated at the time, "I need someone else to kick his tail to the next level." One of the local showcase coaches heard me say it and made an offer. He played showcase ball the next season (not for that coach). They had contacts I couldn't dream of. I also paid a couple thousand for pitching and hitting lessons after his soph year so other instructors could fine tune him on things he was tuning me out. My son also made baseball a year round effort in high school even though he was also playing soccer in the fall.

 

My daughter was in a travel softball organization with great head coaches from 12u and up. When my son played 13u to 16u travel ball I put together a coaching team of former college (two former pro) players. Both kids entered high school very well coached and fundamentally sound.

 

The hard part as a dad is post high school and having no influence. The kids are gone from home. They spend their time around college coaches. The only thing I've said post high school (in private) is asking if they were aware they're holding the bat higher or lower than usual. More often than not it was an intentional adjustment. My daughter's batting stance always drove me nuts anyway (think Marlon Anderson starting with his bat on his shoulder).