Winning, losing and building a program

PGStaff posted:

Very difficult... Not impossible!

My point is the coach that finishes in the middle or even lower in his conference could easily be the best coach in the conference.  

Winning is just one of the definitions of a good coach. IMO

When your top pitcher throws in the 70s and they have four guys that throw 85 or better, it makes winning more difficult.  Especially if they are also more talented at the other positions. More difficult... Not impossible.

fair points, I think we are pretty close.

In my time playing, watching and now parenting a player at the Varsity level what I see is - the coaches that install discipline play regardless of sport are winners - in baseball it may be the below in some form

- players know and understand the basics - pitch ahead in counts, play tight D, cover bases, understand productive AB's from average kids, pitch selection and approach - the mental side of the game alone will win you a handful of games each year.

- are committed to the process of getting better all players better from day 1 as freshman to last day of SR year (productive efficient practice time, off season strength and agility training, support to booster club, support out of school development process etc)

- don't allow kids with the wrong attitude to be a part of the program, that may mean attempting fix a talented but bad attitude before removing however either is preferred to leaving it in place

- works with local community programs as well with local travel teams in talent development and college support - the more kids in his school playing lots of games the more talent he will have to work with.

Those 4 things alone will make most any program a competent, difficult opponent year in and year out regardless of having the top talent.

OLD SCHOOL,

I can't argue with any of that.  And I'm sure you could have added more.

You should be coaching!

Before my son arrived at high school the baseball program was a country club. There weren't off season workouts. Half the varsity didn't play summer ball. The team had seventeen losing seasons in twenty years. This didn't stop arrogance and sense of entitlement.

A new coach came in from a program whose minimum expectations were to compete for their conference title every year. The new coach had been the top assistant at the other program.

The new coach was a teacher in the middle school. He had a lot of lunches with the best middle school players talking about expectations at the high school. He helped the middle school coach turn his team into a well drilled machine. These kids didn't need to be told what to do. They came out of the locker room or off the bus and broke into their routine. By the time my son was a soph in varsity everyone in the program was well drilled on "how we do things."

When my son played varsity the team hadn't had a winning season in six years. His three years they finished second, first and first. In he last eight years the program has won five conferences. They haven't had a losing record once.

What was the difference between before an after? In the big picture it isn't the players. It's the difference between a coach collecting a paycheck and coddling players and one who was organized, had a year round plan and found losing insufferable.

My son and I discussed him attending privates. It was a toss up academically. Our high school has an excellent gifted program. He passed on attending the privates. He probably wouldn't have started until junior year. They were powerhouses. He gambled on starting soph year at the high school (first in six years) and being part of a new winning tradition. The varsity was 6-16 when he was a freshman on JV.

Note: The was one change when my son was a soph. It began the influx of travel players into the varsity program. There were two when he was a soph. The first freshman ever also made varsity. The next year came the first wave of travel players. The travel players were much more disciplined and well drilled than the kids previously coming from a weak, poorly coached Legion program.

PGStaff posted:

OLD SCHOOL,

I can't argue with any of that.  And I'm sure you could have added more.

You should be coaching!

careful there old timer LOL I was once the devil for posting there is a time and place to plunk a kid...when my boys are done playing I may get back into coaching, or I may just play more golf!!

It's hard to win in high school unless you break nearly all the rules.  In CIF-SS, we aren't allowed to directly "recruit" anyone.  Even trying to convince one of our students to try out for baseball is a violation.  You can passively tell someone that tryouts begin when and where.  You can't go up to a kid every day and tell him he should join the baseball team.  I drive around other high schools and see kids practicing baseball when official practice doesn't even start for another 3 months.  And those are schools with winning cultures while the losing culture schools would have 3 players show up for practice.  So you basically have to move mountains.  I think winning coaches fail much more than they succeed when they try to take on a losing team.  

hsbaseball101 posted:

It's hard to win in high school unless you break nearly all the rules.  In CIF-SS, we aren't allowed to directly "recruit" anyone.  Even trying to convince one of our students to try out for baseball is a violation.  You can passively tell someone that tryouts begin when and where.  You can't go up to a kid every day and tell him he should join the baseball team.  I drive around other high schools and see kids practicing baseball when official practice doesn't even start for another 3 months.  And those are schools with winning cultures while the losing culture schools would have 3 players show up for practice.  So you basically have to move mountains.  I think winning coaches fail much more than they succeed when they try to take on a losing team.  

So if you have a stud athlete in your 3rd period class that you've got to know over the school year or semester it's a violation to look at him and say "hey man you should try out for baseball - I think I turn you into a great shortstop"?  That's crazy and just an illustration of how out of touch state associations are with the realities of dealing with kids.

coach2709 posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

It's hard to win in high school unless you break nearly all the rules.  In CIF-SS, we aren't allowed to directly "recruit" anyone.  Even trying to convince one of our students to try out for baseball is a violation.  You can passively tell someone that tryouts begin when and where.  You can't go up to a kid every day and tell him he should join the baseball team.  I drive around other high schools and see kids practicing baseball when official practice doesn't even start for another 3 months.  And those are schools with winning cultures while the losing culture schools would have 3 players show up for practice.  So you basically have to move mountains.  I think winning coaches fail much more than they succeed when they try to take on a losing team.  

So if you have a stud athlete in your 3rd period class that you've got to know over the school year or semester it's a violation to look at him and say "hey man you should try out for baseball - I think I turn you into a great shortstop"?  That's crazy and just an illustration of how out of touch state associations are with the realities of dealing with kids.

I have a hard time believing a coach couldn't suggest to a player to try out for a school sport.  

"Hey, I heard you rhyming at recess and I think I can help you become a poet."  says the English teacher.  I don't see the difference than "try out for a sport" from another teacher.  

Go44dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

It's hard to win in high school unless you break nearly all the rules.  In CIF-SS, we aren't allowed to directly "recruit" anyone.  Even trying to convince one of our students to try out for baseball is a violation.  You can passively tell someone that tryouts begin when and where.  You can't go up to a kid every day and tell him he should join the baseball team.  I drive around other high schools and see kids practicing baseball when official practice doesn't even start for another 3 months.  And those are schools with winning cultures while the losing culture schools would have 3 players show up for practice.  So you basically have to move mountains.  I think winning coaches fail much more than they succeed when they try to take on a losing team.  

So if you have a stud athlete in your 3rd period class that you've got to know over the school year or semester it's a violation to look at him and say "hey man you should try out for baseball - I think I turn you into a great shortstop"?  That's crazy and just an illustration of how out of touch state associations are with the realities of dealing with kids.

I have a hard time believing a coach couldn't suggest to a player to try out for a school sport.  

"Hey, I heard you rhyming at recess and I think I can help you become a poet."  says the English teacher.  I don't see the difference than "try out for a sport" from another teacher.  

everyone has a different reading of the rules different...I wouldn't read any rule in that way unless it specially says "do not mention baseball to student in hallway at school."

I am very comfortable in the grey area, most risk takers are...to each his own I guess.

Agreed. Sounds ridiculous to me. Although it is California!

And honestly, whenever someone claims it's hard to win without breaking the rules I have trouble taking their statements face value.

That  sounds like some of the rules for the public schools in our area. The Private schools arent shackled with those types of rules and generally have players recruited from all over the area . They also have more travel players that participate with their eyes on playing at the next level. The rules about practice and workouts arent as stringent therefore kids can practice and workout with the coaching staff all year if they arent playing another sport. All in all it attracts a different type of player in the Privates than the Publics, and it lends itself to Privates having the advantage when it comes to developing those players also.

It just seems like the antiquated way of looking at sports in 2016. Why not suggest to a large framed kid that he should try out for the football team?? OR a tall kid tryout for the basketball team? Athletics help enrich your life both mentally and physically. Sometimes the administrators forget that fact. What is wrong with encouraging a kid to have an after school activity other than social media and video games??

Building a winning program is about building a winning culture. If your building a program and you don't have a winning culture yourself forget it. It all starts with the person that mans the wheel. Are you a winner? Do you know how to lead? Do you understand the importance of surrounding yourself with people who are winners?

There are things you control and things you don't control. Putting 100 percent of your focus on the things you can control. Leading by example. Setting standards that you yourself are held to. Demanding that anyone that wears that jersey will hold themselves to that same standard. Building a winning culture.

We will be the very best we can be in everything that we control. We will not waste 1 second of time on the things we can not control. We will hold each other to the standards that this program rests upon. It starts with everything we do. And how we do everything. There are no cut corners and short cuts. There is no easy way out.

We will be on time. PERIOD

We will be prepared. PERIOD

We will give all we have. PERIOD

No one will outwork us. PERIOD

No one will want it more than us. PERIOD

No one will be more focused than us. PERIOD

No one will have paid a higher price than us. PERIOD.

No one will be held to a higher standard than us. PERIOD.

You must have a vision and be able to paint that picture for your players. They should be able to look at your work ethic, passion, commitment and see that picture in real life. They need a road map and a vision.

coach2709 posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

It's hard to win in high school unless you break nearly all the rules.  In CIF-SS, we aren't allowed to directly "recruit" anyone.  Even trying to convince one of our students to try out for baseball is a violation.  You can passively tell someone that tryouts begin when and where.  You can't go up to a kid every day and tell him he should join the baseball team.  I drive around other high schools and see kids practicing baseball when official practice doesn't even start for another 3 months.  And those are schools with winning cultures while the losing culture schools would have 3 players show up for practice.  So you basically have to move mountains.  I think winning coaches fail much more than they succeed when they try to take on a losing team.  

So if you have a stud athlete in your 3rd period class that you've got to know over the school year or semester it's a violation to look at him and say "hey man you should try out for baseball - I think I turn you into a great shortstop"?  That's crazy and just an illustration of how out of touch state associations are with the realities of dealing with kids.

You can suggest a student try out for a sport, but if he doesn't show up you can't keep pestering him about it.  Of course any decent coach is going to recruit his own student body.  CIF just wants high school to be academics first.  Our track coach was fired after 20 years for having students train during the dead period.  He wasn't there to train them on those days, but I doubt the athletes all got together and said we need to get some work in during the summer.  A football coach got his team penalized by being the head speaker at an open house which had nothing to do with football.  CIF viewed that as recruitment.  

hsbaseball101 posted:

You can suggest a student try out for a sport, but if he doesn't show up you can't keep pestering him about it.  

Just devil's advocate here, but if ask a kid to come try out and he chooses not to, why keep harassing him to get him out there? It's obviously not important to him so he's never going to be committed to your culture. Just my thought.

Coach_May posted:

Building a winning program is about building a winning culture. If your building a program and you don't have a winning culture yourself forget it. It all starts with the person that mans the wheel. Are you a winner? Do you know how to lead? Do you understand the importance of surrounding yourself with people who are winners?

There are things you control and things you don't control. Putting 100 percent of your focus on the things you can control. Leading by example. Setting standards that you yourself are held to. Demanding that anyone that wears that jersey will hold themselves to that same standard. Building a winning culture.

We will be the very best we can be in everything that we control. We will not waste 1 second of time on the things we can not control. We will hold each other to the standards that this program rests upon. It starts with everything we do. And how we do everything. There are no cut corners and short cuts. There is no easy way out.

We will be on time. PERIOD

We will be prepared. PERIOD

We will give all we have. PERIOD

No one will outwork us. PERIOD

No one will want it more than us. PERIOD

No one will be more focused than us. PERIOD

No one will have paid a higher price than us. PERIOD.

No one will be held to a higher standard than us. PERIOD.

You must have a vision and be able to paint that picture for your players. They should be able to look at your work ethic, passion, commitment and see that picture in real life. They need a road map and a vision.

 

 

Excellent!!!

Coach May's comments brought back a memory of an exchange I had with a parent coaching 11/12 rec basketball.

The parent jumped on me for expecting all nine players to be as good as my son. This parent knew so much he felt he could speak for the parents of eight other players. 

The exchange occurred after a close win over a much weaker team. I told my players the good news is we won. The bad news is we didn't progress as a team today. We didn't play very well. We won because we were that much more talented.

My goal in anything I've coached is the team and the players progress. Improvement makes for a better team at the end of the season. Midseason I would rather lose a dogfight to a tough team than sleepwalk past an inferior team. Talent, development and effort equals winning at the end of the season.

I explained to the parent I don't rate where my son fits in the talent scheme. But I know he plays hard. I expect everyone on the team to play as hard as he. 

The parent grabbed his kid out of the gym. He told me I was not going to abuse his kid anymore. Our parents told me to ignore that parent. Later that week my son told me that parent's kid had to break down and cry for his father to allow him to play for me the rest of the season. Kids like winning.

With the parents who didn't know the game I had a reputation for winning. With the parents who understood the game I had a reputation for getting the best out of players and getting them to work as a team. This leads to winning. Regardless the kids are better players for the next season.

ironhorse posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

You can suggest a student try out for a sport, but if he doesn't show up you can't keep pestering him about it.  

Just devil's advocate here, but if ask a kid to come try out and he chooses not to, why keep harassing him to get him out there? It's obviously not important to him so he's never going to be committed to your culture. Just my thought.

As a coach it's hard to ignore talent when you see it.  Last year I had a kid who was incredibly fast, but not that great at baseball.  If he had some training he'd be a good track athlete.  I asked him why he wouldn't join track, explaining that I would fully allow it even though they're in the same season as us, and he simply said he hated to run.  I'd like to see him succeed and he's not going to do it in baseball.  

Coach_May posted:

Building a winning program is about building a winning culture. If your building a program and you don't have a winning culture yourself forget it. It all starts with the person that mans the wheel. Are you a winner? Do you know how to lead? Do you understand the importance of surrounding yourself with people who are winners?

There are things you control and things you don't control. Putting 100 percent of your focus on the things you can control. Leading by example. Setting standards that you yourself are held to. Demanding that anyone that wears that jersey will hold themselves to that same standard. Building a winning culture.

We will be the very best we can be in everything that we control. We will not waste 1 second of time on the things we can not control. We will hold each other to the standards that this program rests upon. It starts with everything we do. And how we do everything. There are no cut corners and short cuts. There is no easy way out.

We will be on time. PERIOD

We will be prepared. PERIOD

We will give all we have. PERIOD

No one will outwork us. PERIOD

No one will want it more than us. PERIOD

No one will be more focused than us. PERIOD

No one will have paid a higher price than us. PERIOD.

No one will be held to a higher standard than us. PERIOD.

You must have a vision and be able to paint that picture for your players. They should be able to look at your work ethic, passion, commitment and see that picture in real life. They need a road map and a vision.

 

 

nothing really to add but it is worth a repost! well said coach.

Coach_May posted:

You must have a vision and be able to paint that picture for your players. They should be able to look at your work ethic, passion, commitment and see that picture in real life. They need a road map and a vision.

 

 

So it's a bad sign when the coach cancels a summer program because "it's too much work."   I'm afraid kids HS is going backwards.