Youngest player u Have Seen Dominate Varsity Ball?

So in a weeks time this 11 year old has made 3 appearances on the mound. It's the first week of February ,  what am I missing? 

I wouldn't want my 11 year old throwing from 60 ' against HS players once a week let alone multiple times.. What's the plan for this kid? I hope somebody has one for him.  

I maybe missing something, but what is the point at 11? Is he doing it for the reps? Most 11U/12U/13U/14U  select teams are playing or about to play in tournaments right now, shouldn't he be more focused on that and not HS ball? I think he is talented and am not here to knock his ability, but if he graduates in 4/5 years he will be 15 or 16. That puts him at a disadvantage going to college so young, if they plan on him getting drafted he would still have to wait till 18. That is also IF he keeps developing and turns into a pro prospect. A lot of factors here and in my opinion seems like more risk then reward. I have seen a 14 year old kid do very well against 6A HS competition and that is the youngest I've seen "dominate". This is the youngest kid I have ever seen or heard about playing in HS. With that being said 11 is now the youngest I've seen play in HS, but 14 is the youngest I've seen "Dominate" HS ball.

4seamer posted:

Those wanting an update - he played game 3 this evening. Went 2-4 at the plate. On the mound he was: 2 IP, 1 H, 1K, 0 BB, 0 R, 0ER. So far over the three games:

5 IP, 3 H, 3 K, 1 BB, 0 R, 0 ER.  .157 BAA

4-11 at plate, 4 RBI, 3 SB, and 2 BB -  .364 BA,  .462 OBP

HSBASEBALL101 said:

"The kid probably has more experience than all of those guys."

This player has more higher leverage playing time than average for his age. He played for the 10u team that won Elite 32 a year+ ago.. was invited and played on his region's 12u NTIS team more than a year ago.. and has played in the state's higher competitive 10u/11u/12u major circuit. I think at 8u they were third in the nation in elites but they didn't call it that then. Not quite sure.

As for the level of play he is in today, I would guess - guess, mind you - from what I have seen as about AAA 15u or 16u, depending on the team they faced. There are one - maybe two talented players on each opposing team, and velo sits about mid sixties to mid-70's. I think one arm I saw might have hit upper 70's but he was all over the place.

 

Se these are the things that make this thread confusing.  In all my years coaching pitchers and watching my son's teams I have NEVER seen a kid with that wild a difference between his cruising speeds, not to mention the to p velo.  So you want me to believe that there is a 10mph span in his cruising speed?  Normally you are looking at no more than 3mph.  And the max may be  couple mph higher than the top end of the cruise speed.  Now of course this does not take into consideration older more experienced pitchers throwing at a high level who intentionally use different grips to achieve a desired effect giving up velo for movement.  But even then a 13mph swing from lowest cruising speed to max velo is a stretch.  That kind of difference is called  change up.  I am not seeing 70+ out of that arm.  Some of these things just don't seem to jive.  And by the way have you seen a good 15u or 16u team lately?  Even taking your high end of say 77...  probably  low end pitcher at 15u and cut at 16u.

I hope we hear how all of this turns out.  That would be very interesting. For someone so small it is surprising to see that swing.  Also, most 11 year olds would not be able to throw strikes from a regular mound and 60.5 feet.  Anyhow, it's not the kids fault that he is playing.

That said, it seems sort of crazy at 11 years old and at his size.  Though my oldest son started on a very good Legion team (best players from several high school varsity teams) when he was 13. That didn't bother me and he did well.

I forget his name right now, but there was a pitcher who first pitched in the Big Leagues at age 15.

hsbaseball101 posted:

. . . . but at least one pitch looked like a curve and I don't agree with letting a kid that young throw curves.  

Not a curve, gravity . . . 

2020dad posted:

4seamer posted:

 There are one - maybe two talented players on each opposing team, and velo sits about mid sixties to mid-70's. I think one arm I saw might have hit upper 70's but he was all over the place.

 

Se these are the things that make this thread confusing.  In all my years coaching pitchers and watching my son's teams I have NEVER seen a kid with that wild a difference between his cruising speeds, not to mention the to p velo.  So you want me to believe that there is a 10mph span in his cruising speed?  Normally you are looking at no more than 3mph.  And the max may be  couple mph higher than the top end of the cruise speed.  Now of course this does not take into consideration older more experienced pitchers throwing at a high level who intentionally use different grips to achieve a desired effect giving up velo for movement.  But even then a 13mph swing from lowest cruising speed to max velo is a stretch.  That kind of difference is called  change up.  I am not seeing 70+ out of that arm.  Some of these things just don't seem to jive.  And by the way have you seen a good 15u or 16u team lately?  Even taking your high end of say 77...  probably  low end pitcher at 15u and cut at 16u.

2020dad, I think 4seamer was saying the entire pitching of the teams were mid sixties to mid 70's...not this one kid.

Like he said previously, it's a small pond, mid sixties may be a rock star to them. 

PGStaff posted:

I hope we hear how all of this turns out.  That would be very interesting. For someone so small it is surprising to see that swing.  Also, most 11 year olds would not be able to throw strikes from a regular mound and 60.5 feet.  Anyhow, it's not the kids fault that he is playing.

That said, it seems sort of crazy at 11 years old and at his size.  Though my oldest son started on a very good Legion team (best players from several high school varsity teams) when he was 13. That didn't bother me and he did well.

I forget his name right now, but there was a pitcher who first pitched in the Big Leagues at age 15.

I love this place...we have a Joe Nuxall reference...Awesome PG!!!!

hsbaseball101 posted:

 but at least one pitch looked like a curve and I don't agree with letting a kid that young throw curves.

Edit: Comment removed by me. No need to take this thread on a slant pattern.

2020dad posted:

4seamer posted:

Those wanting an update - he played game 3 this evening. Went 2-4 at the plate. On the mound he was: 2 IP, 1 H, 1K, 0 BB, 0 R, 0ER. So far over the three games:

5 IP, 3 H, 3 K, 1 BB, 0 R, 0 ER.  .157 BAA

4-11 at plate, 4 RBI, 3 SB, and 2 BB -  .364 BA,  .462 OBP

HSBASEBALL101 said:

"The kid probably has more experience than all of those guys."

This player has more higher leverage playing time than average for his age. He played for the 10u team that won Elite 32 a year+ ago.. was invited and played on his region's 12u NTIS team more than a year ago.. and has played in the state's higher competitive 10u/11u/12u major circuit. I think at 8u they were third in the nation in elites but they didn't call it that then. Not quite sure.

As for the level of play he is in today, I would guess - guess, mind you - from what I have seen as about AAA 15u or 16u, depending on the team they faced. There are one - maybe two talented players on each opposing team, and velo sits about mid sixties to mid-70's. I think one arm I saw might have hit upper 70's but he was all over the place.

 

Se these are the things that make this thread confusing.  In all my years coaching pitchers and watching my son's teams I have NEVER seen a kid with that wild a difference between his cruising speeds, not to mention the to p velo.  So you want me to believe that there is a 10mph span in his cruising speed?  Normally you are looking at no more than 3mph.  And the max may be  couple mph higher than the top end of the cruise speed.  Now of course this does not take into consideration older more experienced pitchers throwing at a high level who intentionally use different grips to achieve a desired effect giving up velo for movement.  But even then a 13mph swing from lowest cruising speed to max velo is a stretch.  That kind of difference is called  change up.  I am not seeing 70+ out of that arm.  Some of these things just don't seem to jive.  And by the way have you seen a good 15u or 16u team lately?  Even taking your high end of say 77...  probably  low end pitcher at 15u and cut at 16u.

The hardest 11U pitcher I have seen was at the Elite 32, a "tall" lefty from Indiana Lids cruised 72-74 and touched 76 mph.  (on his very tall dad's pocket radar).  This was 3 years ago.  And from 50 ft.  Hope the kid is still out there pitching.

Go44dad posted:

The hardest 11U pitcher I have seen was at the Elite 32, a "tall" lefty from Indiana Lids cruised 72-74 and touched 76 mph.  (on his very tall dad's pocket radar).  This was 3 years ago.  And from 50 ft.  Hope the kid is still out there pitching.

According to PG's data from last year, the 11u event record had a three way tie at 67mph.

We should also keep in mind that these 11u kids are very unusual. PG put out an interesting tweet the other day that lists the class of 2016 average fastball at 80mph!

CaCO3Girl posted:

2020dad posted:

4seamer posted:

 There are one - maybe two talented players on each opposing team, and velo sits about mid sixties to mid-70's. I think one arm I saw might have hit upper 70's but he was all over the place.

 

Se these are the things that make this thread confusing.  In all my years coaching pitchers and watching my son's teams I have NEVER seen a kid with that wild a difference between his cruising speeds, not to mention the to p velo.  So you want me to believe that there is a 10mph span in his cruising speed?  Normally you are looking at no more than 3mph.  And the max may be  couple mph higher than the top end of the cruise speed.  Now of course this does not take into consideration older more experienced pitchers throwing at a high level who intentionally use different grips to achieve a desired effect giving up velo for movement.  But even then a 13mph swing from lowest cruising speed to max velo is a stretch.  That kind of difference is called  change up.  I am not seeing 70+ out of that arm.  Some of these things just don't seem to jive.  And by the way have you seen a good 15u or 16u team lately?  Even taking your high end of say 77...  probably  low end pitcher at 15u and cut at 16u.

2020dad, I think 4seamer was saying the entire pitching of the teams were mid sixties to mid 70's...not this one kid.

Like he said previously, it's a small pond, mid sixties may be a rock star to them. 

Thank you Caco.  Yes it appears I read this wrong.  I stand properly corrected!  Perhaps I should edit my comment...  or this retraction will hopefully be enough!

CaCO3Girl posted:

Go44dad posted:

The hardest 11U pitcher I have seen was at the Elite 32, a "tall" lefty from Indiana Lids cruised 72-74 and touched 76 mph.  (on his very tall dad's pocket radar).  This was 3 years ago.  And from 50 ft.  Hope the kid is still out there pitching.

According to PG's data from last year, the 11u event record had a three way tie at 67mph.

We should also keep in mind that these 11u kids are very unusual. PG put out an interesting tweet the other day that lists the class of 2016 average fastball at 80mph!

But realize the sample size of 11u players playing in PG events is extremely small to the entire population of 11u players.  Sample sizes for PG events probably don't become very meaningful until 16u & older.  Most families aren't paying to travel to PG events from every corner of the country at that age.

roothog66 posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

 but at least one pitch looked like a curve and I don't agree with letting a kid that young throw curves.

Edit: Comment removed by me. No need to take this thread on a slant pattern.

Good thing you did because I know plenty of kids that threw them very young and aND most are not playing anymore.

Regardless, it's ridiculous.

TPM posted:

roothog66 posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

 but at least one pitch looked like a curve and I don't agree with letting a kid that young throw curves.

Edit: Comment removed by me. No need to take this thread on a slant pattern.

Good thing you did because I know plenty of kids that threw them very young and aND most are not playing anymore.

Regardless, it's ridiculous.

I removed my comment almost immediately because it was a sidetrack. However, you couldn't leave it at that could you? Of course not. I'm sorry I don't put much stock in your anecdotal evidence vs. ASMI (and other's studies) unless of course you can document those kids, how much they were pitched overall, etc. If you really want to make the argument, start another thread and I'll drown your anecdotal stories with hard, scientific measurements and studies that actually tracked this issue and didn't rely on "I knew this kid that threw a lot of curves and his arm fell off" without revealing that the kid threw 200 pitches a week for three years or taking into account any other factors. Otherwise, let's leave it out of this thread. Hopefully, you'll do me the courtesy of recognizing that I didn't want to sidetrack this thread (as I now have done, of course) and resist the uncontrollable urge to comment on everything under the sun (not, apparently, that I'm much better - but I did try).

Yea you did try.

But I caught it anyway.

TPM, Roothog, when you guys "converse", I always have this playing in the background...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwzDxp2TC7I

Go44dad posted:

TPM, Roothog, when you guys "converse", I always have this playing in the background...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwzDxp2TC7I

 

Well, that's funny, but he kind of reminds me more of the song,   "It's a mans world".

TPM posted:

Go44dad posted:

TPM, Roothog, when you guys "converse", I always have this playing in the background...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwzDxp2TC7I

 

Well, that's funny, but he kind of reminds me more of the song,   "It's a mans world".

???? Do I somehow come across as misogynistic?

roothog66 posted:

TPM posted:

Go44dad posted:

TPM, Roothog, when you guys "converse", I always have this playing in the background...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwzDxp2TC7I

 

Well, that's funny, but he kind of reminds me more of the song,   "It's a mans world".

???? Do I somehow come across as misogynistic?

That's a little harsh to say that don't you think?  

What I meant is that there are some here that really think that dads have all the answers and moms have no clue.  You appear to be one of them.  Sometimes you dont need science for the answers. If you have been around long enough, you dont need that stuff.

Here is an example, son had a p coach in high A and double AA.  I wont get into names but he was a ML pitcher for many many years and quite famous. His son is a pitcher, told my son, no way did he let his son throw CB's until HS.

MDBallDad posted:

PGStaff posted:

I hope we hear how all of this turns out.  That would be very interesting. For someone so small it is surprising to see that swing.  Also, most 11 year olds would not be able to throw strikes from a regular mound and 60.5 feet.  Anyhow, it's not the kids fault that he is playing.

That said, it seems sort of crazy at 11 years old and at his size.  Though my oldest son started on a very good Legion team (best players from several high school varsity teams) when he was 13. That didn't bother me and he did well.

I forget his name right now, but there was a pitcher who first pitched in the Big Leagues at age 15.

I love this place...we have a Joe Nuxall reference...Awesome PG!!!!

 

PG saw Joe Nuxhall pitch.    OK, so did I. But he had been around for a while.

Just a comment on the curveball debate ... Over the years I've seen several current and former MLBers make absurd statements about throwing curves. It was obvious by their comments there was nothing scientific behind their statements. It was purely anecdotal combined with the assumption they knew something. 

Do I know kids who toasted their arms throwing curves? Yes. I also know kids who toasted their arms throwing nothing but fastballs. It isn't the pitch. It's the ability to throw the pitch properly.

To me, the biggest issue with throwing a curve at young ages is the player learning how to throw it properly and a coach recognizing failing mechanics due to fatigue. Watch a very slow motion video of a fastball versus a curve. The motion of a fastball is much more violent than the curve. Watch the snap back after the release.

This is all I'm going to say. I've done the curveball debate to death.