"Have you actually looked at Andrews findings?"
Many of them actually. I read everything referenced to him even though our son won't play another inning.
It is information. It is highly reliable information from the orthopedic surgeon who is with the very, very best in terms of seeing the damage sports like baseball can produce and correcting them like not many do with surgery. I would think the study showing a "properly" thrown curve ball (interesting how things get remembered) does not cause more issues for the elbow and shoulder than a properly thrown fastball lends credence and objectivity to what Dr. Andrews and his peer group are providing as guidance. I believe you will also find the article strongly supports the view that most curve balls are not properly thrown by youth pitchers.
But what do I know? Just seems to me that one might think too many of those on the way up dismiss the message and messenger.
I'm just reading this, so maybe it's been addressed. ASMI's studies did not, in any way, deal with "properly thrown" curveballs - only "self reported" curves. That means that even when included curves thrown with what some would consider bad mechanics, the curve ball was found to be a non-factor as compared to fatigue and overuse. Nissen, in fact, showed the curve to provide LESS stress than the fastball. I think it's time we lose the arguments concerning a "correctly thrown" curve versus a "poorly thrown" one. I think what you will find, though, is that the curve (and change, as well) is thrown with lower peak valgus angle (arm layback) than the fastball and this may well be a major contributor to elbow injuries. When trying to pinpoint pronation v. supination as a factor in elbow wear and tear, I believe we may be looking in the wrong place.
I guess I should have been even more precise and actually referenced some of the articles which use the phrase "thrown with proper mechanics."
Also, based on the 2014 published article by Yang, et.al. the youth curve ball is not fully exonerated.
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content...46514524699.abstract
"Nearly 70% of the sample reported throwing curveballs, which was associated with 1.66 (95% CI = 1.09-2.53) greater odds of experiencing arm pain while throwing."
You have to be careful with abstracts. I have the entire study if you want it (just PM me). The study was very careful to point out that while increased use of the curve did increase reports of pain, that this increase in reported pain did not apparently mean much since it did not coincide with any increase in injury risk.
I probably depose as many doctors as most so I fully appreciate what you are saying. I also understand that the UCL is most often a cumulative wear and tear deterioration. There can also be issues with lawyers being doctors, and doctors trying to be lawyers in my experience, although both can create a lot of interesting things when they occur.
Many can read the same articles and come to different conclusions. This is one which would vary from the views that even an improperly thrown curveball has no risk:
"
To say curveballs are safe is misleading; they are safer only if the pitcher has nearly flawless mechanics. Many young pitchers have poor mechanics when throwing a fastball, and throwing a curveball greatly increases the chances for poor mechanics, especially when pitchers are fatigued. Young pitchers are more likely to alter their mechanics to create a better curveball. This will increase forces on young arms that are not fully developed leading to a host of upper extremity injuries.
While the research has not conclusively shown a connection between curveballs and injuries; it is safest for young pitchers to avoid throwing curveballs until they are more mature and can use proper mechanics. According to Dr. Michael Ciccotti (Rothman Institute Orthopedist; Chief of Sports Medicine; Philadelphia Phillies Head Team Physician; and Expert Panelist for Sports Doc) “the general recommendation of most sports medicine specialists caring for these athletes is to avoid off speed pitches as adolescents; being careful to gradually increase exposure to curveballs and off-speed pitches as teenagers into high school.”