quote:” Is in not possible for us to agree to disagree on The Way, and to instead turn our focus to a shared, higher ideal ... our common love of Baseball?””
This is what is being tried here, I guess I’m failing miserably and can’t figure out quite how to deal with this form of thread sabotage. Any suggestions? I actually taught and still do teach traditional mechanics to the ones that want it. I’m here only to set the record straight for what Marshall mechanics actually are and produce. Some wish to tear down, use dis-information and comment with negative personal attacks at every Marshall thread because they have personally e-mailed Marshall with their sophomoric style thoughts and he has returned not in kind but with scientifically pernicious information which is then turned into revenge thread sabotage feedback by trying to vex the information giver into making the same mistake verbally. The problem with this is the moderators always delete the whole thread instead of the offending detractor or said statement. This has happened at every web site discussing these issues.
I totally agree with you and look forward to your curiosity and mature responses!
3fingeredglove,
quote:“I think this is an excellent thread, simply because it tends to keep the for/against arguments confined here in this thread. In the past, the arguments have derailed many otherwise valuable threads. It still happens, but much less now.”
This is where the “line item veto” would work well to keep the personal and childish behavior at bay.
quote:“It would be great if you would name the pitcher”
I would gladly do this but there is too much history here that keeps this from happening,
I posted the my 12 year clients video only after asking permission from his parents.
When this HS senior bellies up to the table with the team that drafts him we do not want any preconceived notions entering into the negotiations as you see here with many. After he Inks? I will ask them again and see if it is OK, but if he goes with his intended College, I believe armatures are off limits unless they themselves seek this attention.
quote:“and list out the aspects of his mechanics which are in accordance with Marshall tenets”
This can be done without names or any one indevidual.
quote:“I can see no reason not to identify the pitcher”
You must know the history to understand, just look at how many actual pitching coaches have joined the discussion let alone some of the other great posters here? Have you noticed only the detractors until you arrived? The anti-Marshall guys as described by them selves do not want this information disseminated and will and also have caused trouble before when I’ve named kids and been stung before so I’m not going down that road again.
quote:“he certainly is a public figure in the world of baseball he is in the top dozen or so pitchers of his age, and many people have seen him, and comment on him. There can't be the slightest question of his skill or success to date.”
Yes, but he is trying to improve his position not subtract from it. I have many personal friends I grew up with who are pro scouts and to a man they say you better keep this under wraps for now.
quote:”It would be useful to me personally. I have only moderate knowledge of pitching mechanics”
Marshall says all the time that fathers only need to learn what is to be done, they actually learn this stuff faster than the traditionally engrained high level coaches because of pre existing beliefs that they can not or will not get over or agree with even if it is shown right in front of them. Count me in here also!
.quote:“and I am not willing to try to learn what Marshall means by terms like "driveline" and "total kinetic linkage" or "kinetic time line" and "nexus" “
This will be your own personal decision but even just running into these words has peaked your curiosity and I’ll bet if I asked you to tell me what you think these mean you would probably get it right. I just look things up when I do not fully understand.
The term “driveline” is the line between home plate and second base running straight through the middle of the pitchers plate. He uses this term a lot because many of his tenets are to align the body parts like the shoulders, hips and elbow at pendulum swing with this line.
The term “Kinetic linkage” is a classic Kinesiological term meaning power runs from joint to joint one after the other or even “force doubled” where two joints go together after the preceding joint and then to the next joint. I will try to explain in detail for now on what each means, hopefully not vexing anybody in doing so.
quote:“The overwhelming majority of baseball people reject Marshall, so the odds of him being right aren't very high.”
The overwhelming majority of baseball involved higher-level coaches have no scientific back ground what so ever because of the way the system works. This is changing more and more and College educated people with scientific back grounds are getting jobs with positions of power but it will take a long time before this change will have any legs.
This is exactly what happens with all new scientific endeavor, first scorn, ridicule and dis-belief then acceptance and use. I can name you a thousand like scenarios, one since everybody here likes to use religious references would be when Galileo told the church that the world was round and that we were not at the center of the universe, well we know what happened there, Pope Urban the 7 th had him put away. In the sports world all coaches believed that the scissors kick was the way to High jump until Dick Fosbury showed them a better way. I don’t know how old you are but this was a huge controversy then and nobody would even talk to him until he won gold, the difference was his sport did not rely on opinion for advancement it was premier stats.
quote:“There is a defined lexicon available from physics and aerodynamics, but Marshall makes up new terms.”
Marshall being the one of the leading experts in the field of Kinesiology has coined many new terms but they are not that hard to understand when he also gives a complete explanation so that fathers who know nothing about baseball can build his sons mechanics at a comfortable pace. This has and is being done. I have 12 year olds that know a lot about the physiological and movement sciences pretty well. Many read his site plus my non-stop blathering.
His nomenclature is scientific that will only be continually miss-understood by the intellect seeking lazy. When I say, “arm vector,” I am describing what actually happens rather than say “arm slot” that is not what is happening. Any effort at all produces meanings that make perfect sense. He uses the term “glove side” arm, leg, hip, ear, etc. and “ball side” foot, shoulder, elbow etc. to describe action so that it means the same to both rightists and lefties.quote:“his nomenclature is non-standard.”
quote:“In any case, in order to read and try to understand his thoughts on pitching mechanics, I would need to invest perhaps a hundred hours.”
Although his information does contain large volume, the main tenets that will protect pitchers from the major injuries are very easy to understand and perform with even the youngest.
Not sure what you mean here? His trajectories will always be towards the catcher’s glove. If you mean he has explained this more tough to understand than the rest then, It is an evolving explanation, he does listen to his readers and when he has miss stated or contradicted himself or has to give a more accustomed explanation does and always changes his mistake and thanks the reader and asks that others do the same.quote:“What if those thoughts are of the same quality as his writings on trajectories?”
When looking at training film of a youth pitcher where you are seeing only one date of the progression will tell you little. There are 3 sets of video timeline about 8 months apart, the last video’ taped in January shows a dramatic change in these mechanics to the better. Has any of these would be analyzers taken this into consideration and do they understand what they are seeing when a tenet is close.quote:“this thread has videos of young kids whose mechanics are so unusual that nobody wants to analyze their mechanics.”
I totally agree with you, his full version is aesthetically repugnant, the same problem Fosbury had. Now the scissors kick is repugnant. I have to admit I do find myself seeing real bad over rotated pitching mechanics as repugnant now.
“Pastime Trnments,”
Marshall’s tenets are built of off the way a 3rd baseman’s or outfielders throws when they trot Crow-step with a karaoke ball side leg to the front. Marshall is actually trying to bring these throws on to the mound. They stay taller, rotate faster, longer and get the same arm vector that is humerus up during drive and forearm inside of vertical (Humerus up fore arm bent to the head side), this is why Marshall is alright with long toss with out high parabolic arc because it allows the thrower to get his ball up to driveline height (top of head high) before his glove side foot touches down that happens when all players play catch. The one thing that leads to the gateway problem of “over early rotation” is the useless leg lift that takes you to far beyond exactly straight towards home plate with your feet, hips, shoulders and arms.quote:”Questions 1:
How do your guys look when they play catch?”
quote:“Question 2:
According to most everything I have read, Marshall prevents injuries by replacing the arm swing motion and the way the hips open correct?”
Injuries to the elbow and shoulder are caused by centrifuging you arm (forearm flyout) that is caused by being late with you ball arrival at initial foreword force application and “early over rotation” taking the ball from hand break around your hip out of alignment and has little to do with the hips unless you turn them to far around in you leg lift by taking your knee back towards second base.
quote:“Question 3:
”So if I throw everyday just playing a max effort catch traditionally will I be injured?”
If you take your humerus, elbow and forearm beyond straightness back you will then have to counter it with forearm flyout during your drive that will injure your elbowor shoulder even if it is not debilitating at that time. Playing maximal catch walking foreword has less of a chance of making the critical mechanical error.
quote:Question 4:
”If I would not be injured or shows signs of being injured. Then what is the variable that causes me to be injured on the mound?”
The leg lift is the culprit if you do not control your early rotation with it; it allows you to be out of alignment and late with the balls arrival at driveline height. Why do outfielders not catch a fly ball where they need to throw maximally with their most velocity by standing with a leg lift and catch the ball sideways?
quote:Question 5:
Softball pitchers and Marshall have any correlation?
Yes, softball pitchers throw center mass from down below that allows them to throw every inning of every game because they do not injure them selves. If Marshall’s mechanics catch on there would be no reason for inning limitation for HS pitchers other than giving someone else a shot at it or tournament successive games.
quote:“This caused the dislocation. I threw through the pain and ended up doing much more to it. (Doctors say I over compinsated and injured myself more severly) “
Medical Dr’s are Kinesiologically under educated or none at all, they prove this every day. By separating your throwing shoulder you really loosened up the ligaments surrounding your shoulder capsule, this injury (the reason I do not recommend football to pitchers) is usually a career ender for pitchers depending on how long you went with your humeral head dislodged from it’s Fossa.
quote:“Is this because of the extensive rehab?”
Muscle mass is a prescription for lessening injury outcomes and you were lucky to come back from separation, usually psychological impediments are harder to overcome with shoulder injuries. Prehabilitation is exactly what Marshall has been doing for 40 years
I’m glad to see it’s catching on finally.
quote:”Is there a correlation with amount of workout time and lack of injury? ( in Marshall theory)”
You know these are not Marshall’s theories, these are exercise physiological, Motor skill acquisition and Kinesiological tenets that all advanced students in these fields learn, some of them have forgotten or missed these classes that tell you exactly the way it is done best for athletes, you better believe the track and field coaches know this stuff?
Yes, we train for mass with wrist weights ( 5 lb’s youth and up to 30 lb’s adult) and heavy balls (2 lbs youth, 6 lb teens and up to 15 lb’s adult) and use baseballs for underload fast twitch recruitment for speed. Many people think that long toss builds strength but exercise physiologist know you can not build muscle mass with a 5.5 oz. object but you can stimulate Type II muscle fiber.
quote:”If you gave me the workout routine you did with your students and I did nothing more than that. (nothing mechanical) would that prevent them from injury? Has there been research done on this???
If you did the work out with out the mechanics (not talking bottom half here) you would catastrophically injure yourself during training. If you did the work out with the mechanics you would not injure yourself and went back to traditional mechanics to pitch you would perform closer to Crow-step mechanics then you were before but would be suseptable to centrifuging and injury.
Marshall trains pitchers the way he was taught to put together a specific interval-training program at one of the leading physical education departments in the world, Michigan State University where many of the exercise physiology tenets took form. He also taught there as a Kinesiology professor. All of his interval training techniques have been proven out as exercise physiological tenets like “sport specific ness” His training regimen is very vigorous and has motor skill drills added in. “Specificity of Training” the only training that helps baseball pitchers garner proper neural recruitment (Bio electrical switching) timing is overloading the pitching muscles in exactly the same movements that they use to throw baseballs. Unfortunately traditional angles will not allow you to do this.
quote:”Lastly, I have to disagree with what was said about a two year old.”
It’s a general concept that has no mechanical call out only in that they must keep their center of gravity centered or they will end up on the ground because of their head size and it looks like they throw like a girl when they throw to keep their balance.
quote:“Not every kid is taught or changed. More than you will ever realize just go on playing baseball and do not change anything from the time they are two. So why do they not continue to throw with Marshall tendancies?”
What happens is with X baseball playing fathers is they have them drop down their
elbows to the magic 90 positions and that is where the neural signals are built and usually stay. Non past playing fathers normally leave them alone until somebody else gets to them usually around 7 years old and then their head size is more normal in relationship to their bodies so they then can go down with the elbow more with out falling down.
Naturally we have the capacity to throw from a hyper under the bottom (sub-marine,) all the way back up to hyper over the top [Marshall) and every vector in between. This being so gives a child plenty of opportunity to drop down and feel all these force positions. Think about how many times you skipped a stone on water when you were a kid plus all the other throwing activities leads to a dropped elbow regular throw.
Cap_n,
quote:“cept they get to run-and-throw 100mph.”
Marshall’s delivery is close to this accept cricket bowlers are not allowed to bend their ball arm. Running up gives them little, maybe 2 more miles an hr? Watch how when their glove arm leg hits the ground and they start to actually drive the ball foreword their body momentum has almost stopped just like baseball throwers. Cricket balls weigh exactly like baseballs around 5.7 oz. There have been many cricketeers whom have thrown over a hundy and this is why we believe velocities basically remain the same between Marshall’s and traditional, I have witnessed it, we also believe the potential is higher velocity because we can train with 10 times as much resistive stress for a lot longer because no harm is being done plus get a straighter drive line. Newton likes the last one.