In the future if anybody has mechanical questions please state what stage you are talking about, Full late rotational drive crow-hop like “amazing” or aggressive crow-hop with mid rotational drive or acquiescing Leg-lifters with Marshall top-half that can only attain mid rotational drive.
Laflippin,
quote:“The only game footage I've seen of what I suppose”
If you were to actually understand the mechanics by trying them you would recognize some critical differences that seem to be traditional but are not. It’s all in the transition (arm turn over) at the top you must recognize.
quote:”The other available video is just the usual Marshall stuff: A bunch of guys throwing into nets or to a catcher in Zephyrhills, or the "Amazing 12 Year Old" throwing to his dad in his backyard.”
You did not comment on my 12 YO video where I put in whole at bats, what gives?
quote:”The Amazing 12 Year Old does not have amazing velocity”
I have been instructing pitching to all age groups for 30 years and the average velocity of all starting 12 YO is 57 mph. The 850 Marshall 12 YO that I was given permission to post, throws 72 MPH.. Could you tell he was that fast with that much movement from a video? You have to admit that game video is impressive!
quote:“because his father has gunned and reported his fastball: 50 - 55 mph. For a 12 yo, that is a very average”
And what was his traditional velocity before he started Marshall’s full mechanic?
You are willing to criticize this kids velocity in comparison to others of his age but not state that others of his age that have traditional mechanics also have low velocities?
Pitchers with great velocity are few and far between with either mechanic. These mechanics do not slow you down and have nothing to do with why pitchers are fast.
quote:“He also doesn't throw with any kind of control”
Do you think it will stay at your perceived analysis from afar? I seem to have no control problems with my talented pitchers with the full motion or I would have given up on it 8 years ago.
quote:“seriously at risk to take a line-drive comebacker”
We have been over this read back
quote:”The older jokers whose video is posted on Marshall's website will not suffer any pitching-related injuries at5 all because they will never pitch at a competitive level.”
We have been over this read back, give them the ball! Personal attacks like the word “jokers” shows your personality more than it shows their ability to be given a shot at it.
quote:“In particular, Jeff Sparks, who was clocked in the low 90's when he pitched for Tampa Bay with traditional mechanics”
This shows your understanding of these top half mechanics; the fact that you do not see it does not mean it’s not there, read back. Sparks displays 4 of the injury relieving tenet mechanics, can you name them? They are not traditional no matter how many times you repeat your misdiagnosed beliefs.
quote:“they are no good” they were so terrible they couldn't make the Bridegport BlueFish, and there it is...”
Yet Williams was unbattable and led the spring training try outs in every category,
Tommy John did not make the final decisions here. Why did you leave out how well Williams did, and there it actually is.
quote:”Even worse, Fleisig's ASMI study concluded that Marshall's pitching motion actually incurred more stress to the elbow “
But not UCL Valgas stress!!!More stress is beneficial if it is not injurious!!! Fleisig believes UCL damage occurs at finish also, how about you? I don’t, I know when it happens at initial drive from” forearm bounce” this shows that ASMI and their kinesiologically challenged practitioners are anecdotally studying the traditional motion just like the NPA so they will never get at the truth or it will take them another 20 years to finally realize that their research is bogus and that blowing up pitchers arms is not worth being static in their approach. Studying a mechanic that produces as many different injuries as the traditional mechanic does and hoping that it won’t is bad science. How many arms have they destroyed like the Rice U. pitchers a while back that went to them for their mechanics? More of the same old! One thing is for sure, Dr.Andrews will never run out of arms and shoulders to repair with his involvement at ASMI.
quote:“stress to the elbow and shoulder than the traditional pitching motion”
That’s funny Joe Williams went to Marshall with a blown up Labrum (shoulder) and asked by the Mets Ortho’s to undergo surgery. When he got to Marshall’s, Marshall told him to NOT get surgery because his mechanics did not involve the labrum. He now pitches with out any pain.
Sparks came to Marshall with 2 major tears in his UCL, throwing in the high 70’s and needing UCL reduction. When he arrived at the MLB he was throwing in the low 90’s and topped out at 96.
Since Marshall’s centered driveline mechanics puts no stress on the UCL he was then able to throw with this increased velocity. Why did you not mention this?
Lets contrast that with a recent thread start here at HSBW by a Jr.College pitcher involved with the NPA and coach House.
“NPApitcher,
Howdy. I'm new here and just wanted to say hello. I came over from LetsTalkPitching.com. I play at Central Arizona Community College in Casa Grande, AZ. I am currently taking the year off due to shoulder surgery.
Anyways, I'll be here to offer advice and help if it's needed. See ya around.
Athlete's Performance
National Pitching Association
"You're only as strong as your weakest link." “
Do you see anything here repeatedly associated with the NPA’s traditional methodology; these shoulder problems have been manifesting themselves from there for a lot of years now!!
I live in So Cal so I see first hand what happens to these kids coming out of there.
Here is a quote from the NPA:
“At the 25th Annual ASMI Injuries in Baseball symposium last year a sizeable debate about proper pitching mechanics ensued after Tom House presented the NPA Pitching Mechanics Efficiency Model. Over 100 physical trainers and orthopedic surgeons had different views of pitching mechanics. Many of these attendees were very intelligent people that couldn't come to an agreement on how to throw correctly to reduce risk of injury. It is only through continued research that these viewpoints will start to converge at some point. But we all know that for the Perfect Delivery, proper mechanics are a must!”
Until this happens all these well meaning men will still contribute to the destruction of our best youth and adult arms.
Dr. Marshall has already done this research that these learned gentlemen will soon come to realize in their late repeatable research
quote:“while drastically limiting Marshall pitchers' velocity. Nice... a real lose-lose situation.”
If you were willing to know the truth, instead of listening to others give false information then repeating it and would actually try just the first three tenets you might find out something, typical. Heck, you are willing to let sidearmers go at it with their lowered velocities. I threw low side arm in College 10 % of the time to get 3rd strikes because I knew it produced outs with out velocity.Why the double standard?
MTS,
quote:“Why do I need to show clips of my two sons? I haven't made any claims.”
You have made many claims and I do not need video of your kids, just showing you
that you do not need video of mine neither. I like it when you talk of your kids.
quote:“You and your friends have.”
Last I checked, I am the only one posting here, please direct your insults at me alone and not at those whom cannot defend themselves.
quote:“One of my sons doesn't pitch yet, the other is primarily an infielder although he is penciled to chuck a few from the mound for his varsity team. If I come on here making claims, I will back it up.”
You have just made a claim that you recognize as non-claimant.
quote:“Notice the 1st batter is leaning forward to get the ball...signs of inexperience.”
Who cares you just asked for any video, I gave it to you, that’s a start. There were also better batters shown, did you discuss them? At least you know that Full Marshall pitchers are now competing whether they are genetically gifted or not. You might want to look into it further because the full version will not be represented for very much longer, then your curiosity or what ever it is you are doing will not be satisfied in the future.
quote:“My son was hitting 68 mph before he turned 12.”
This must be another non-claim?
quote:“2 months after his 12th he broke 70”
More non-claims? Love your verbal cadance gives you away , you need to stop repeating this stuff here as with over their. You might want to punt here?
quote:“There were 4 kids in his 12u division in his league that threw harder. 2 threw over 70 mph, the other 2 were over 75.”
There is an old saying in scouting, when you here a velocity time from anybody just take off 5 % and it will be closer to the truth. Nice claim though!
quote:“One of them is now Robert Stock's teammate at USC. Speaking of Robert he was throwing 80 mph as a 12 year old and now is mid 90's. His brother, still in high school, is said to be throwing over 90 mph.”
What does this genetically gifted pitcher have to do with anything? He was also in the low 9’s at 14 YO. One of a kind. I do not get the connection?
quote:”My son says he was clocked at 87 mph. I don't know if he throws that hard, but when he recently nailed a batter with a fastball, we all felt that batter's pain. He had retired 7 straight with 4 strikeouts prior to nailing the batter.”
I’m proud of him but with out video according to you this is just a claim.
3fingeredglove,
quote:“Here's an example of why I'm confused by (and suspicious of) Marshall terminology”
I have been reading your intelligent posts all over these boards and do not believe that the use of the term suspicious as legitimate for you! Maybe I’m wrong here? By the way I like Dr. TAL’s approach and understand it completely, kids that wear out the barn door
seem to never get sore! I actually enjoy creative terminology if it makes sense like when I coined the term Kinexus, I’ll bet that sent you scrambleing, sorry! I will leave my terminology out in the future since this is a Marshall thread. At another site I am known as Dirtberry because I am from eastern Idaho. You may be the only one that gets that.
quote:“The first quote describes a geometrical line. The second uses "driveline" with some other meaning, and certainly not a geometrical one.”
Most traditional coaches everywhere in the past believe that “over early rotation” past the driveline helps you with velocity that could not be further from the truth. This tenet, keeping your shoulders (acromial line), your hips (acetabular line) and your arms on the driveline at initial forward force application, mid force application and finish is the most important tenet to arm health because of where the resulting arm vector has no side to side centrifuging. Driveline is a field line to be matched with the body parts lines.
This is where your mechanical questions will get us somewhere unlike the tedium of distracting banter, Thank you, I’m not sure if I answered your actual question though.
I’m not as good at this as Marshall himself.
quote:“It's hard to discuss mechanics (as you have said you wish to do) when the usage of terms is so elastic”
I will try to do better in the future with your help! I see no elasticity? As you get used to it, the more it makes sense. I have no trouble getting the youngest players to understand it.
Cap_n,
quote:“You're still making posts to redirect the focus of my question/request.”
I have repeatedly answered your question about this perceived redirected attempts by me!
I have NO video of Pro’s or College kids because it is unnecessary for me to have it being that I no longer work with them when they leave High school. Besides would you recognize that they have to acquiesce back towards traditional or be chastised for being uncoachable? Since you would not know where they were as compared to where they are it would be of no use to you. I have told you youth pitchers perform these mechanics better already but you don’t seem to be able to put it together. This is why I posted with permission the 12 YO video that you (and “us”) refuse to discuss.
quote:”Show us”
I see no one else that does not understand what I have already told them, only you?