quote:“The biggest thing with Lincecum's velocity is how his lower half propels his upper half”
This was just part of the argument whether this early drive timeline added any velocity or not.
Obviously in the high speed video it shows his actual and initial forwards ball contraction point at 130, this propulsion as angulated lower back and arm motion with most rotations and forwards mass having already been stopped before the ball starts its forwards acceleration graph. Do you see this? The lower half propeling the upper half transition give you no forwardss force yet!
quote:“He is a freak of nature”
The man could apply at “Circ du solei”, no doubt he is the best pitcher athlete out there.
We believe a fast twitcher like him who has a very high MTS (Marshall tenet sum) could attain well over 100 mph if he used the Crowstep motion from the mound and trained “sport specifically”.
quote:“he can powerfully open his hips and still have his upper half and chest closed to the point that it is facing down the left field line is ridiculous”
This separation then contraction is then used to turn over his humerus and forearm before any forwards force is used and has no accelerative contraction at this timeline. Do you see this at 88 to 129? Notice during this timeline there is no forwards movement of the legs, its gone!
quote:“I try to look at everything with an open mind”
This is rare unless you are a singular thinker, most are just running with the pack.
quote:“ I coach pitchers at the college level and am always looking for ways to get more out of guys while keeping safety on top of the list”
Then becoming thoroughly informed by the leading Kinesiologist for the overhead throwing mechanics on Earth who has already changed the way a major sport is mechanically performed (NFL passing mechanics) would be a prudent choice?
quote:“We have developed a throwing program with alot of different ideas and viewpoints”
I would love to hear them all, they aren’t a secret are they? If you knew a mechanical performance enhansment that produced safely performed mechanics would you keep it from your competitors?
quote:“Our pitchers were all healthy”
If you are teaching your pitchers to pronate preferably all or a majority of their pitches I can believe this. Just this one tenet is so important. The rest are incredible also!
quote:“I think pitching a baseball is a violent act and because it is a bit unnatural “
I’ve heard this many times in the past and do not believe in this ill conceived traditional principle. There is nothing unnatural about the ability for the human body to articulate to the fullest length even as radically up and over as far as Marshall (inside of vertical) teaches and lincecum attains.
I would even say we have evolved to throw objects overhead for millions of years making it quit natural and when Grog chucked the spear with his atlatle it was not performed with forearm flyout and supination.
quote:“we are going to have injuries but I think we can do alot of preventative things to help avoid them”
They can all be avoided through proper mechanics and training.
quote:”Back to Marshall”
Wow!!!? Do you prefer Dos Equis (XX) ?
quote:“I do think he gets a bad rap because he is trying like all of us to help guys”
He is the only one that has actually done it; his mechanical force application is bullet proof, proving that the term “only so many bullets in the arm” as uninformed and pitch counts (for adults) unnesesary.
quote:“Again, I don't agree with his philosophy in total”
This means you have not tested it in total and have only brought the pronative aspects of a few pitches to your program like many at all levels in the last few years? I would suggest that you have only ensconced yourself in very little of it and need to delve even deeper and maybe absorb all of it through physical means then adjust your thinking.
quote:“I took alot from the pronation techniques he teaches”
In order to get it all, out of this aspect other tenets start to come into play.
Do your pitchers throw supinated Cutters, Sliders and Curves?
Do you use High-speed videoon shirtless pitchers to analyze what you think your seeing or getting?
quote:“I think the traditional pitcher can learn alot from that. take Lincecum forinstance”
Lincecum powerfully inwardly rotates his humerus with his Latissimus Dorsi the way Marshall teaches it unlike all traditional pitchers whom are pulling their arms through with their peck’s at this same timeline.
quote:“the way he pronates in that slow motion video is eye opening”
He has since learned 2 more pronated pitches and tweaked his curve more towards pronation; it’s a thing of beauty. Now if he can learn to transition further back by changing how he arrives his pendulum swing he would be able to actually pronate his earlier drive and eliminate more forearm bounce and centripetal (forearm flyout) action
This would make his pronation voluntary at the start of his ball drive.
quote:”I think to try to go back and forth on selling the Marshall style is not going to be a productive discussion”
It never has been because people will not discuss actual mechanics so they bring in all kinds of personal emotional baggage to deal with.
You sound like someone who is curious but this last comment puts you a few steps back from there. What’s holding you back? Although you should be afraid! If you physically try all the tenets you will find out they work even better than I can explain, then what will you do? Now you are in an ethical fix with your self and everybody that has anything to do your advancement does something different and now you know this keeps children from ruining their arms.
All, in your position in the past have quit the discussion or have tried to have the discussion removed. Will you answer the questions I have given you?
I discuss it so that at least the youth pitchers and concerned parents can get the information and if just one tries it and applies it, there is production.
quote:“While I do think it is a safer method, I don't think it will ever produce a consistent enough amount of people to reach the big league level”
It only takes a lot! Would you hand the ball to a full Marshall Crowstepper with 6 pitches that you did not have to call? This usually stops right at High school tryouts!
Have you even tested his pick off positions especially the 1/2 reverse at second and the righty hold for runners at first, they are incredible and puts the runners lead off back towards the bag more?
quote:“if any ( I know all about Sparks and he was a bit of a hybrid, not complete Marshall while he was in the big leagues)”
Were you aware of him having to change his mechanics by the good professional level pitching coaches or hit the road? Remember he was a forced hybrid.
quote:“I do think that we can take alot from a pretty smart guy in Mike Marshall”
How come you are so reasonable? This thing is growing legs and I hope that HSBW is part of that evolvement, after all it is run by a woman and Marshall says it is going to be the mothers who are going to bring this in because the men are incapable of doing it as of now! Lets hope there are more curious baseball established men get involved.
quote:“Like I said I don't think his theories in whole will work”
Many others and me have proven that they work physically by performance and training testing, no theory necessary anymore, this is not the problem! I produced 2 first rounders last year by adhering to them at different degrees in the last decade.
The full Crow hop method makes it so easy to pitch for kids, I’ll bet adults do even better.
quote:“but we can take alot of positives he has taught us including pronation”
Pronation is only a tenth of the score with the MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum).
What he calls his checkpoints that include training.
quote:“Again, he may be eccentric”
I’ve met the professor and spent some time with him and his lovely wife, he is as down to earth as a person can get, he drives around a beat up (not his wife’s car though) old mini pick up truck to tinker around town in. He will never big league you and you can communicate with him personally. He’s the kind of guy pitching coaches at all levels should be flocking to for a big huge gulp of Kool-aid.
quote:“he is out there trying to help young kids get better”
This will be his legacy; his motto and mission statement has always been “do no harm”.
quote:“you have to respect and applaud his efforts”
This is not what people do; you are truly abnormal in this regard! Guys like you are the ones that will eventually change history.
MTS,
quote:“Lincecum is in the pre-stretch of the core muscles which allows him to more effectively contract and generate velocity”
There is no velocity being generated at this timeline!!!, only when the shoulders catch back up does efficient additive (very short now in degrees compared to Crowstep) rotation and arm position start any forwards contractive movements. To little to late, Tim could add 5 MPH if he had a lesser disconnection at forearm turn over and lengthened his ball driveline.
quote:“Good power hitters use this to a lessor degree”
Good power hitters perform this same kinetic link up when the barrel mass actually starts forwards by having the shoulders and hips more inline the way Marshall describes it in both (traditional v Batting) the only difference is with his pitching motion the legs actually attaing forwards mass movement add where batters do not.
quote:”If you go back in history, the harder throwing pitchers, as they do now, were already pronating”
They pronated their Sinkers, screwballs and some (tailing to the ball arm side of home plate) fastballs, we want it all! Every pitch. The straight and cut fastballs have always been taught with supinated action. Only now are pitching coaches asking their pitchers to voluntarily and maximally pronate through the ball driveline throw some pitches but suffer lesser performance with the mechanic because of their forearm flyout. When they discover the voluntary pronated Slider and Cutter watch out, you won’t be seeing any more 41 HR’s on a Sunday.
quote:“Yardbird you have no credibility when the pitcher you tout as an example of Marshall's mechanics”
MTS you have no credibility lying about one of my pitchers and me touting him, you have demonstrated you do not recognize any more tenets than pronation like many.
If you understood humeral/forearm transition it would help you get over your vendetta.
quote:“is completely a traditional pitcher”
This is the part that you keep parroting and I keep telling you the tenets that he possesses you do not recognize but Marshall did. I will not give up on you though! I believe one day you will understand how the transition works that hangs up most who do not understand this timeline that allows TM to be able to voluntarily pronate all his pitches.
quote:“He even has a flaw...pulling his arm up by the elbow ala Prior”
The difference is Prior did not do this!!! His humerus stayed low then looped out and did not attain its last 90 degrees of outwards rotation until it went out not up also bouncing his forearm incorrectly unlike Tim and Tyler who have some but not as bad a bounce.
If T&T brought their ball back then up with their hand underneath they would start their transition even earlier for the better.
quote:“Sure he pronates his fastball...but so do most hard throwing pitchers that would say "Marshall who?"
Are you still on this useless information talking point?