quote:”I will explain why I am hesitant to implement these mechanics. this is honesty and not an attack for I appreciate your comments and research.”
Hesitant is a good way to approach any new information as I did the same thing 12 years ago. Hopefully hesitant does not mean not looking into it in depth. I tested it on myself for 2 years before I brought it to my clients.
quote:“Many pitchers have used what you would consider standard mechanics for many years and have not had injuries.”
All of these pitchers have some of the pertaining tenets mixed in and can be quantified.
Maddux powerfully pronated all of his pitches except one but his centripetal fight still left him unable to compete the next 4 days so even he had to recover the injurious aspects of the rest of his motion, like the rest. With all of the Marshall tenets you can compete (adults) every day.
quote:“These pitchers have pitched many innings and have had long successful careers with these mechanics.”
If you check closely all of these pitchers have had serious injuries except a very few, even the pronounced durable Nolan Ryan was on the DL over 40 times in his career and still throwing in the mid 9’s when he blew his arm up to end his career.
quote:“One person's motion analysis may or may not have some validity to it but many other factors go into play other than pronation and crow hops and Marshall type mechanics”
I agree that all have differences in the way they perform their particular mechanics but all can perform the rudimentary first steps to avoid injuries of which pronation is the first cleanup that avoids most of the elbow problems, the next one is alignment that would greatly help HS pitchers aged pitchers eliminate shoulder problems. The Crowstep is a bottom half mechanic that alleviates bottom half injuries mostly with older adults.
quote:“I would never encourage my own son or players to use Marshall mechanics that can only be used from the mound.”
This is a huge misunderstanding on your part here!!!!! All fielders use Marshalls mechanics when throwing from the field maximally. Marshall is trying to bring these mechanical timings to the mound.
quote:“Many of our players play other positions and cannot use these mechanics from anywhere other than the mound”
This mistake you are making here is why many coaches prefer to not look into this.
Using Marshall mechanics to teach your pitchers will greatly enhance your infielders and especially the outfielders.
quote:“without causing nueromuscular confusion”
These mechanics have no loss in the kinetic chain> The traditional pitching motion has 4 disconnections in the Kinetic chain giving these pitchers when they move to a field position the “neuromuscular confusion” not the reverse. Remember Marshall has brought the Crowstep (full Marshall) motion to the mound.
quote:“As I look at the Marshall website and watched his pick-offs, they are balks and are not permissible under high school rules”
When a HS’er uses the Full Marshall motion the pitchers step off putting them in the field totally legal, they don’t even have to throw over, you instead of studying and learning have made the mistake of watching performance video and trying to figure it out without reading the pedagogy.
The new baztardized rule only states that you can not go to first while in the wind up position with your foot on the rubber, so we get around this by stepping off, either way we are faster to first because stepping off is performed faster than the arms can swing up to be ready to throw.
quote:“Which leaves me to wonder how these could be used without players running blind on the pitcher”
You should see the runners at first, in total confusion not knowing how to time their shorter starts (they can only get 3 step lead) because a Crowstep pitcher can start his arms and still throw over to first just like a traditional lefty. This mechanic is so far superior in holding runners that it stops most games with opposing coaches complaints where the Umpires (competent) tell them that it is completely within the rules.
quote:“When studying the pitching motion, so much is brought up about the pronation of pitches.”
Yes, but you must understand that we are talking about ALL the pitches including the Curve, Slider, and Cutter fastball that are intuitively supinated with the traditional centripetal mechanics.
quote:“If you watch pitchers throw, they all pronate.”
This is a classic mistake by you here, If you take high speed video you can see that when you voluntarily supinate a pitch that at release your forearm goes to complete range of motion supinated and then snaps back pronating involuntarily. What you are seeing in slow frame rate video is this after release snap back because there is no place for the forearm to now go, this perceived pronation is not contractive voluntary pronation.
Many in the past and even many more (MLB) now are voluntarily pronating their pitches
From the time the Humerus is in (fully outwardly rotated) position further back to be able to throw forwardly by pronating from this point. This is when pronation helps the most and why you should arrive at the back in supination fully so you can then only have one way to go forwards in pronation.
quote:“If your reach your arms out in front of you, they naturally go to the palm down position. It is a natural position and nothing new”
All pronation and supination are voluntary contractions, when you drop your arms down or raise them with your shoulders your forearms are in between their full range of motion in a nominal position. ASMI incorrectly measures rotation s from this mid point instead of from either full articulation to the other.
quote:“When I looked and Dr. Marshall teaching it, I feel it would be very easy for the batter to pick it up as the arm angle is much different than his maxline fastball”
This would be a mistake corrected by watching batters actually react to these mechanics or face them live yourself. I believe this is why HS coaches do not even want to watch them scrimmage, so then they won’t have to make an unpopular decision.
All Marshalls arm vectors are from the same over the top angle “inside of vertical” “center mass axis” coming straight from the forehead from being behind the head and upper arm hidden. Then the ball either breaks to the ball arm side or the glove arm side giving the best possible deception and worst batter reaction time. You should hear some of the comments from batters that have faced this mechanic, they are faked out much easier having the ball break to either side from the center rather than always off to the side where opposite break is much more difficult from traditional centripetal mechanics.
Also remember that we sequence 6 pitches, 3 break to the ball arm side and 3 break to the glove arm side.
quote:“These are just some of my observations and I may not speak for others. I see nothing wrong with looking for a better way to do things and commend you for that.”
You are the one to be commended here, you are one of the few who have an open mind when it comes to “yard dogma” and I expect that your pitchers will actually benefit from some of the information. Remember not to get tied up with the bottom half information other than the landing patterns since nobody will accept this unaesthetic leg drive as of now.
Focus on learning how to pronate the Cutter, Slider and Curve being that pronating the pitches that break to the ball arm side are more intuitive and easier to perform and they might already be performing this way with those.
Focus on getting the ball to driveline height right when your glove arm leg lands by having the hand under the ball thumb up at the back, this will protect the UCL.
Focus on having them stay in alignment (hips and shoulders) with the field driveline.
Focus on them locking their humerus in line with their shoulder line when they arrive at driveline height to protect their shoulder joint.
Just these few things will improve their velocity, control, movement and eliminate injuriousness.
And please keep debating these issues.