JohnF, your point about asking the umpire brought back a really disturbing memory for me. Back when my eyesite was fairly good i used to umpire a little bit. It was during a semi final game in the old Khoury league distric games, i think it was a 13u maybe. I was behind the plate and this kid on the mound was throwing pretty good. Well after the 4th you could tell something was wrong. Arm was hanging, velocity fell, his body language told the story. I kept telling the catcher, called time and walked over to the dugout but nobody wanted to listen. This young kid was the "ace" i was told and that was that. Who is an "Ace" at 13? well it got so bad they had to take the kid out and it really looked like the coaches were upset with the kid. For his age group the kid had potential, real potential but I never heard of him again. I always wonder about that young man. What could have been if his "coaches" knew what they were doing.