I am very appreciative of your effort here but as you see you have already been asked to eliminate our contentions! Go figure.
quote:“I think it could be rationally argued that over-use constitutes misuse”
This is a main sticking point unless you rename the condition as “injurious mechanic limitations” instead of “over-use” that does not occur performing a non-injurious mechanic in young adults.
A healthy mechanic cannot be over-used in such a minimal effort work to rest interval athletic as with pitching. Only your capacity is limiting.
quote:“I'm not encumbered by semantics though”
Neither is anybody else apparently? I am, getting it wrong is what leads us all to “use limiting” in young adults and adults because of the confusion now that people think their centripetal traditional mechanic is actually safe and the reason they are now injured is because of the competitive amount they use and not the mechanic.
quote:“though this sort of infantile "me-first"
Who said anything about first? I’m just sensitive to this subliminal cornering that naturally comes out with all and understandable.
Bballman,
quote:“jd, I knew it would be an exercise in futility to include Marshall in this discussion”
Sorry, bball I forgot my warning disclaimer to protect you from going thru that.
Remember just don’t read anything I post and you will be alright to participate.
quote:“First of all, they believe all "traditional" mechanics are wrong”
This is false when weighed against the actual information!
Example, the voluntarily pronated pitches and arm vectors that many traditional pitchers perform are positive tenets, there are many more.
quote:“nothing we do in terms of limiting overuse will do any good either way”
Wrong again, notice how there is a “we” and a “you” here hardly a good start to the thread mission statement request.
The we did finally recommend pitch limits for youth pitchers even though they got it grossly wrong and were told it was wrong and for what reasons.
quote:“Secondly, he believes that kids should not pitch until they are 13”
This is false also, he recommends that they do not compete when pitching yet, I think we all look past this qualified recommendation and hope that the stress can be shared evenly during developing years youth years so they can enjoy the game as played in the yard.
My recommendation is that everybody has to pitch to spread the load evenly so that all their arms are deformed less yet all.
quote:“I would think by your comments that you allow players under 13 years old to pitch competitively in games”
This is never a decision I have to make, the parents have all the control but sometimes do not realize they have this power or are assertive enough when dealing with forceful personality coaches.
quote:”How about if you comment on the issue of overuse and how you have seen your pitchers overused by their game coaches”
I do believe in the overuse explanation with developing youth pitchers with any mechanic! I have explained my un-qualified but experienced recommendations for youth pitchers that still allow for below 13 byo competitions that exceed Dr.Marshalls recommendations but are way lower by 80% in at the time production and consecutive months, hopefully we can have more of this discussion.
HSBW, BBF and ASMI would be the correct places to air it out but voices are censored at these sites and many others besides ASMI is selling something and can’t really give mechanical recommendations freely as with the others named but gives their pitch count recommendation collected from mainly unqualified participants making the recommendations posses no scientific merit..
quote:”So, I would think that including Marshall and his followers in this discussion would be counter productive”
You need not worry about counter production, you already have it covered by the incorrect over-use explanation for injuries!
quote:“All you would get is the above”
Selling us short and getting information wrong is what stands out above
quote:I would love to see Yard, Kharma and those guys to just put aside the rhetoric
You’s have al ready done this physically to Kharma here and I see no rhetoric only mechanical, training and health recommendations. Kharma is just a colorful writer and many of you don’t seem to like rainbows, gray areas and especially that Black and white..
You actually may benefit by asking that he be reinstated.
quote:“for once and contribute something to this”
I believe we have stepped up and attempted to explained the actual problem in detail instead of the accepted perceived one that ensures delivery and continuation of those wrong principles.
quote:“what might be able to be done about it from that stand point - leaving out the mechanics issues for now”
I could bow out if knowing that all would understand that you would be discussing only injurious mechanics when naming the problem over-use or add in by way of experience with the traditional motion in all its centripetal forms by making pitch count recommendations at a much lower number than is currently understood as correct.
quote:“Believe me, any one of the groups jd is calling on can do the same thing.”
This cannot be done if owning up to their injurious mechanical continued teachings that have already been proven by results and kinesiological diagnosis as dangerous.
quote:“They all have their "one thing" that sets them apart from others that they can cite is the reason for the problems”
Where, you must pay for these false opinions, this is another reason for their intransigency, if they can’t come to terms as I did with their injurious beliefs then they will fight the information.
quote:“It would be nice to stick to the topic of overuse and what peoples opinions are on that issue”
The two subjects are the same and the reason for confusion is that people give their unqualified anecdotal positions, you still believe that some form of centripetally applied mechanics are safe when they are not? I believe mechanical mis-use in young adults is the problem not over-use. Over-use in youth pitchers is prevalent even with non-injurious mechanics because they still produce stress across growth centers, all the other injuries are preventable and even many of the bone stress issues mitigated.
TBP
quote:“UCL because I get the impression that this is the most common injury in terms of surgery and I believe it may be mistreated somewhat.”
UCL degradation is more a problem with young adults and adults not youth pitchers and is mistreated in that it is totally preventable in all.
quote:”If indeed UCL injuries are caused by fatigue”
UCL injuries are caused by one mechanic, “Forearm bounce” attaining full outwards humeral rotation just before the acceleration phase caused by late humeral/forearm transition and has nothing to do with what the word fatigue really means that would be right if used the way the word actually means like “micro tearing” cumulatively instead of what everybody and ASMI believes is “lack of capacity” or energy stores that is not fatigue.
quote:“as the statistics apparently suggest, what is the mechanism for injury?”
The stats lie as usual by putting the blame on over-use instead of mechanical performance.
quote:“Why are players more susceptible to injury while fatigued?”
Maybe what you are seeing is mechanical breakdown and not lack of capacity that looks like the culprit?
quote:“What are the qualitative and quantitative signs of a fatigued pitcher?”
Work to rest relationships are already known in exercise physiology and a pitcher works for 2 tenths of a second then rests for 30 seconds, hardly enough output to minimize capacity in this activity. It’s not capacity.
quote:“Does the UCL usually respond with pain when injured?”
No! there are no pain receptors running through Ligaments but there are at the bone insertion but most of the tears are in the middle like most structures, this is why you see many complete tears give the pitchers the false notion that they are alright with a little rest until that MRI comes back.
quote:“If so, when and where does the pain refer?”
Three pronator muscles help protect the UCL by pulling the Ulna closer to the humerus as Cadad has explained. When these muscles are not conditioned to withstand the stress pain will occur right above the UCL and Dr’s miss-diagnose these muscle tears continually. Strengthen these muscles sport specifically and this problem disappears
quote:“How does the UCL grow and heal?
The UCL is minutely vascularised when original and is always repairing itself from bad mechanical application. When a replacement UCL is put in it never revascularises and never repairs itself.
quote:“Knowing how it heals, what are the best techniques for encouraging healing between throwing sessions?”
Time and nutrition.
quote:“What are the best ligament maintenance protocols for baseball players including diet?”
Actual “Sport specific” training daily and carbo loading after the game.
Of course the best one is to quit bouncing your forearm backwards.
quote:“I believe most of this stuff is fairly well defined”
Depends on whose explanation you are getting, most have it wrong.
quote:“If parents could be given this kind of information they might be able to better understand “
The best information is actually there but has not been taken advantage of yet in any meaningful way because everybody wants their information from the top down and this information is somewhat new making this route almost impossible to get out.
quote:”Mechanical issues are going to be more difficult to resolve”
Mechanical change is a tough recommendation to jump on and most are not willing to experiment with new information but it is making forwards progress although at a snails pace.
quote:“I would like to see a similar piece come out of ASMI as part of a UCL primer”
They have, Dr.Fleisig believes the UCL is degraded upon extension of the elbow so their belief is already set with out a fixable call out but rather than me explain this you should get it from the horses mouth.
quote:“when rest, ice and ibuprofen are recommended treatments for ligament injury As they are on Dr. Andrews stop sports injuries website.”
Unfortunately Dr.Andrews is a great surgeon but a poor kinesiologist who just goes along with what the rest say or visa versa.
quote:“I become less hopeful that more serious injuries can be prevented through this type of crusade”
You have said a mouthful here and are spot on and their normal call of rest opposed to the superior mechanical fix and proper sport specific training is a huge impediment.