Is that it? Where do you put the number for 13’s and under’s?
Lets get this thing rolling, if not then how about some conclusions?
Or is 85 the number? All the other sites fizzled out and I don’t know where to go for the PDF?
quote:“You already got the concession..rejoice! Misuse it will be”
Like I said I’m OK with the term over-use when dealing with growing youth players and their bone deformation but not once the growth plates have fused then the term should change to “mechanical Mal-practice “ or something that actually fits because, if you cannot not injure yourself, there is no over-use.
Do you think it fair that a non-injurious pitcher(Marshall mechanics tenets) must limit his pitches in HS, college or pro if he is biologically fused with his growth plates?
quote:”BBman has every right to that opinion based on his experiences and frustrations..his initiative may in fact exclude Dr. Marshall”
It is not his opinions I worry about, it is the ones that he repeats that others have said over and over that are false and believed to be true like the over-use issue in young adults and adults.
quote:“I don't believe ASMI does either but I in no way speak for them”
ASMI is afraid to debate or test any of Marshalls claims because it will make all the over 20 years of research that has also been peer reviewed go right down the drain like their over-use claims and false pitch count recommendations. Nominal is not good enough when it comes to this problem!!
quote:“I understand but it was only to point out that Yards logic on that particular point was weak”
My explanation might have been weak but the point was strong.
quote:“Really all the forums have stepped up and come up with some absolutely spot on and well schooled thought”
I can’t wait for the conclusions!! so we all be part of another mass anecdotal pitch count recommendation fail? Lets hope when we get to the conclusions the limits are at least 60% less than they are now, even this number will fail but help a little, very little.
quote:“any curious or concerned parent/coach..person couldn't help but come away with the widest range of thought all geared towards helping kids at least get their shot”
This is good, are you going to include my tainted information in the PDF so these concerned other boarders can make a more informed decision about there families future?
quote:“I consider it all pretty successful even if I haven't gotten a response from Mills, Jaeger, Riddick..etc”
I consider this exceptionally successful and believe that some of these individuals have their fingerprints on ASMI’s failed anecdotally attained pitch count recommendations already through the survey that was sent out and used to attain this bad information by asking everybody’s opinion about where they should be and making it sound like some kind of study. True peer review and agreement.
Bballman,
quote:“My only contention is that Yard would turn this into an issue of mechanics rather than a discussion of "overuse". I think there is a big difference between the terms as I see Yard using them”
I’m OK with the term over-use in children!!!! Not in young adults and adults.
quote:“Overuse has to do with how much someone pitches competitively in one outing and how frequently they pitch”
Only mechanics dictates pitching health in young adults and adults, not pitch counts.
Accumulative injurious effects are less easily recovered from in connective tissue and cartilaginous ones from added competitions making them long term and short term muscle injuries recover very quick.
Why should Marshall tenet pitchers suffer limitations because everybody else has injurious mechanics?
quote:“Misuse, as I understand the Marshall camp, has to do with the mechanics of pitching”
Yes, since an injury can occur at the beginning of the season or game just as easy as in the end and we are not talking fitness issues. If there is no injury where is the over-use?
quote:“nothing to do with # of pitches, frequency of outings”
We can pitch all day, pitches & frequency has little to do with our production.
Limitations not necessary depending on Biological age.
quote:“ pitching while fatigued.”
Since we do not get injured, all the fatigue has been eliminated also making the fatigue excuse false also. What is your understanding of what fatigue means in these contexts?
Most people have 3 different meanings!
quote:“I would just hate to see this very timely and appropriate topic”
I’ve been trying to get you guys to take this leap for years but you only want to proceed on your belief system that is false on many fronts and has led you to believe that pitch counts injure your arm not mechanics and that there is some nominal form of the traditional pitching mechanics that are not injurious.
quote:“get side tracked from overuse to a discussion about how individuals pitch. I see them as two separate issues”
There is no side track, just one and they are the same thing!
I do think that people who have to deal with pitch counting because of their sons mechanics need to get it right! and the counts that are established for these traditional pitchers are always way to high for any kind of safety.
quote:“This provided by my good friend Roger Tomas”
The problem here is, they have tried this tack before, they just keep reinventing the same tired old failing information like the latest attempt by ASMI with 3p advertising non-injurious mechanics when nothing has changed but their stretching program that has now been implemented with 2 MLB teams and now have also failed with many of their participants displaying the same historic injuries. Same old failing mechanical and training info.
Cadad,
quote:“Actually according to Dr. Jobe revasculization of the tendon used as a ligament replacement is one of the keys to a successful outcome”
This is 20 year old info that has been toned down recently due to the number of multiple UCL surgeries that produce no blood upon reremoval and retrofitting a failed replacement. Although they want them to they do not revascularize!
When is their ever a successful outcome? The tendon can never repair itself as before with the original. It’s never as stable,, it diminishes its structural integrity much faster than the original.
Gingerbreadman,
quote:“I believe there is no real for sure answer to solve the entire issue of pitching injuries”
I don’t believe any more either! I know there is!
quote:“Sometimes they just happen!”
Every injury has a reason, all are known, you might want to find out what they are?
quote:“Just like any other sport”
Yes, just like football when they eliminated all the throwing related injuries 30 years ago by changing their force application mechanics to pronated over high humeral releases.
Yet, some like Jake Delhomme refused to attain a high humerl vector and voluntarily pronate the torque release and end up with complete Tommy John surgery that was totally avoidable!
quote:“We can do more to help curb the problem, but that is all we can do”
If your child produces the traditional mechanic that is all he can do, he cannot curb the problem.
quote:”Every sound and reasonable person knows you can't push too hard in any sport”
My pitchers are told to push it maximally at all times and on every pitch because they have non-injurious mechanics, much different than what I’ve been reading others do..
quote:“ The physical body has its limitations”
What an angle and how can this concept be pushed to help produce its outcome?
quote:“I do like having pitch count limits in leagues. I believe that this should be applied especially in High school.”
Should my pitchers have these limitations? What for? We can pitch as often as FP softball pitchers. Why should we be punished for everybody else’s Mal-mechanics?
quote:“I have seen many many times coaches with good intentions overuse pitchers for the sake of winning”
When did the over-use occur and how did you know when this was happening?
Conclusions?
Its not that coaches, players and parents are not wholly unaware of overuse injuries, the problem stems from not having limiting factors such as pitch count limits in place to prevent knowledgeable people from overusing young arms.
HS kids can only pitch 10 innings a week because of this injurious problem, this limit was not enough and has failed! Pitch counting happens at all HS’s now because the original fix of 10 innings that failed and now all these coaches know that the new pitch limits have failed, what’s next is they will lower the number again and these limits will fail. Whats next? Everybody pitches one inning where they start the inning with nobody on like Mariano?
quote:”Personally I believe more should be done to instruct, teach and then implement and apply rules that would eliminate overuse and injuries which originate from that”
The problem is at what number, we all know that pitchers fail in the first few innings of many games, now where do they originate from?
quote:”From what i have found out, instruction alone does almost nothing to prevent overuse”
From what I have found out, instruction alone does everything necessary to eliminate all injuries when the instructee puts the tenets into practice!
quote:“The only thing I have found that works is rules and regulations which limit or eliminate overuse.”
You have not found out the mechanical fix to these problems yet?
Did you also find out the R/R have failed again by the amount of injuries still being reported even with spring only players?
BOF,
quote:”Yardbird if you can get off this whole issue of traditional vs non traditional mechanics I think some common ground could be found to the benefit of our youth.”
I hear ya BOF, would it be better if I said injurious mechanics/ non-injurious mechanics?
This is, the only thing messing up this big pitch count fest we are trying to have.
And, I believe JD has me plugged in as a HSBW guy so your discussion has a completely different problem than all the other boards who are not encumbered with any real science involved issues, I believe they are still arguing about stats at BBF and the Bee&Deebate site has little discussion yet and only by kharma, Brett and JD, if you guys want me to move to another site so I can ruin there inadequate discussions I’m OK with that as long as I can come back here to check in when a false notion is presented IMO.
I understand that when I have to deal with the traditional mechanics coming in my front door every day, that I then have to use pitch counting as a tool for them even though I do not want to. I tell them all, the way it works and if they wish to use the injurious mechanics that they should keep the competitive and ballistic training numbers way down knowing what is taking place I have been dealing with this problem going on 40 years with traditionally based pitchers and learned only in the last 12 years that the problem goes away in its entirety when you make the mechanical switch from “outside of vertical” the supinated gateway to “inside of vertical” the pronated gateway, giving these pitchers countless bullets.
Would you dis-allow a fully biologically mature HS varsity Quasi-Marshall pitcher his limit 10 innings and 160 pitches in one game if he wanted? Knowing how they train and have a non injurious mechanic?
I’m afraid this youth push will bleed over to the more mature players who do not really need a pitch count especially when they do not understand the reasons why? You know how HS is always changing the rules of the game like in just general pitching. Remember they were the first ones with a limit already!