Dominik85 posted:roothog66 posted:2017LHPscrewball posted:roothog66 posted:2020.2023dad posted:roothog66 posted:2020.2023dad posted:I have been told they will also look at effort exerted. The kid doing max effort (every ounce of his body) to touch 90 may not be as promising as the one who is throwing 87 with ease over and over again. And someone mentioned the lefty factor as well.
True,though it always makes me laugh because the small kid will always look like he's exerting more energy than the larger, longer kid even when the reality is that they are both exerting the same full effort. I think a better analysis (which is what they are probably trying to get at when they talk exertion) is how smooth and repeatable does the delivery look.
Right. Smaller pitcher typically HAS to use every once of his body to match a bigger kid's velocity so that is really what they are talking about. And just like mechanics it means there's room for improvement. I agree though "smooth and repeatable" is a great way to look at it.
Not really. My suggestion is that taller, longer kids have longer limbs and so, with effort that doesn't differ at all from smaller pitchers, it just appears that they are exerting less effort when, in reality, there is no effort difference at all. Even with two pitchers of similar stature, I think one kid can be at 90% effort and just look like he's exerting more effort than another kid, simply due to too many moving parts in his delivery. It's definitely something recruiters pay attention to, I'm just not sure that they aren't fooling themselves if they think it means anything at all as it pertains to projectability.
I fall into the category that thinks taller pitchers have a mechanical advantage when throwing. Ever see the guys competing the the long drive contest - they tend to use the longer shafts to get the added clubhead speed. Taller kid - ALL OTHER THINGS CONSTANT - will have quicker hand speed. I will admit the ALL OTHER THINGS CONSTANT is a tough nut to crack and you will never see two identical pitchers. That said, two kids, one 5-11 the other 6-4, both with solid mechanics and both throwing 88 mph. The 5-11 kid, based on physics, has to develop hand speed that is - proportional to his height - higher than the tall kid such that their actual hand speeds are identical (and therefore they throw the same velocity). I would suggest that the 6-4 kid is probably throwing appropriately whereas the 5-11 kid has probably learned to ramp things up a notch so he can hang in and compete in the upper 80's. It would suggest that the 6-4 kid has additional upside (if they then learn to ramp things up) whereas the 5-11 kid may have topped out.
All this breaks down at the individual level, but if someone is looking at 100-200 pitchers that are all good pitchers, then you need a way to pick and choose among them and high effort versus low effort, IMO, can be one of those factors.
Here's something from Kyle that you might find interesting:
https://www.drivelinebaseball....-in-pitchers-matter/
While it deals with pitchers, the same may hold true as to "fast hands." What further study has found is that in terms of "arm speed" as it is normally measured, there is very little difference from pitcher to pitcher. Heck, it finds that most high school kids have equal or faster arm speed than pros. So how is it that some mlb pitcher with the same arm speed s a HS freshman throws 25mph harder? The idea is that as bodies mature, they develpo longer and stronger limbs. Those limbs require greater force of strength to generate the same arm speed. Where we see the difference is with the whip effect. In other words, if you measured speeds at the wrist to finger, you would see greater velocities through the pitch with bigger stronger, longer limbs because the velocity from the arm is amplified down the forearm because the greater torque required for Chapman to reach the same arm speed as a skinny 14yo freshman translates to greater point velocity (as compared to angular velocity - the traditional method of determining "arm speed"). So, longer, denser arms require greater torque to reach the same arm speed as skinnier, less developed limbs and this increased torque creates greater velocities of delivery.
In the end it is about power output. The longer limbed guy does need less angular displacement to reach the same linear fingertip speed but the longer limb has a higher inertia to overcome. In the end the force will be about the same. The female Olympic champion also has a higher Stride frequency than Usain bolt (as she is about 5"6 or so) but she is a second slower because she puts less force into the ground.
The taller guy still has a slight advantage because he has a longer arm path to accelerate but still there are tons of 5"11 guys in pro ball throwing 98+. There is no doubt that height is an advantage but by far the biggest factor is the wattage of power that a guy can produce.
Dom I think our first ever real disagreement! There are not tons of 5'11" guys throwing 98. Look up MLB rosters. Can't even hardly find guys under 6'0". Again as spin rates become more prevalent I think that may change but not now.