What is considered a "full athletic" scholarship? My son was offered 100% of everything except for room. Academics are not involved. Does this mean that this school now has only 10.7 scholarships?
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If "room" is not involved you do not have a 100% scholarship--you have a scholarship for tuition and I assume books
1sttimer - Also, I assume you're talking about a DI as they are the ones that are allowed to fund 11.7. However, many DIs do not fund that many, so depending on where they start would be the percentage your son's schooly came out of.
Like TR said, a "full ride" is where everything is paid and rarely happens. However, with grants and other monies, your son's "package" could go up.
Like TR said, a "full ride" is where everything is paid and rarely happens. However, with grants and other monies, your son's "package" could go up.
A full ride is equal to the COA (cost of attendence): Tuition + Room + Board + Fees + Books.
We were told by son's HS coach that the college recruiters at a particular college out here in California look at how much we're already spending on high school tuition. They figure we've been paying that already and so will factor that into how much they offer. For example, if we've been paying 15,000 for high school and college is 20, 000..they'll offer 5,000. Isn't that how they work out the 11.7 money?
With thanks to others on this site who explained it to me (esp. Prepster and Tiger Paw Mom):
The NCAA calculates the average cost of attending the school, which includes tuition and fees, room and board. (I'm not sure about a books allowance.) Then you get 11.7 times that average cost number as a cap on the amount of dollars the program can spend on scholarships.
There is an interesting aspect to this with state-supported universities. The average cost is weighted based on the differences in cost for in-state and out-of-state students.
The result is that if the program focuses on in-state players, it will actually have more money to spend than it would take to give out 11.7 full in-state rides. But less than it would take to give out 11.7 full out-of-state rides.
A state U program that is heavy on in-state students may actually have the equivalent of more than 11.7 scholarships to dole out, if the program is fully funded.
So, to answer the question, no, what you described would not reduce their allotment to 10.7 because it doesn't work that way at all.
The NCAA calculates the average cost of attending the school, which includes tuition and fees, room and board. (I'm not sure about a books allowance.) Then you get 11.7 times that average cost number as a cap on the amount of dollars the program can spend on scholarships.
There is an interesting aspect to this with state-supported universities. The average cost is weighted based on the differences in cost for in-state and out-of-state students.
The result is that if the program focuses on in-state players, it will actually have more money to spend than it would take to give out 11.7 full in-state rides. But less than it would take to give out 11.7 full out-of-state rides.
A state U program that is heavy on in-state students may actually have the equivalent of more than 11.7 scholarships to dole out, if the program is fully funded.
So, to answer the question, no, what you described would not reduce their allotment to 10.7 because it doesn't work that way at all.
Newcomer - Most people aren't paying for their kids HS education as most HS are public. If I had a kid at a private school and a coach wanted to consider what I had been paying for that education, I would not be happy. That doesn't have anything to do with college and shouldn't with an offer. Using the FAFSA is a different matter which many coaches do consider.
First timer - I just realized that you're new here so WELCOME! There are many, many discussions around here regarding scholarships and how it all works. One thing you may want to do is search for threads on scholarships. Click on the FIND button up top then enter scholarship and see what comes up.
Midlo,
Good job!
To make it easier, as an example, if the coach has 250K to spend, and he is offering to pay the average tuition cost for the recruit, let's say 10K, for 11.7 he is only getting a small portion of the pie.
Use this knowledge wisely with the idea that trying to sound like you know more than you should can make a good offer turn into no offer.
Bottom line is and always should be, how much is it going to cost me for my son to attend.
Welcome to the HSBBW!
Good job!
To make it easier, as an example, if the coach has 250K to spend, and he is offering to pay the average tuition cost for the recruit, let's say 10K, for 11.7 he is only getting a small portion of the pie.
Use this knowledge wisely with the idea that trying to sound like you know more than you should can make a good offer turn into no offer.
Bottom line is and always should be, how much is it going to cost me for my son to attend.
Welcome to the HSBBW!
Hello there FirstTimer 
Glad to have you here contributing to the HSBBW board. This is a good question and the above answers are good, however, we need to get the other costs covered too. If they will cover that much, they'll cover the rest, IMHO. It's like a first offer in the form of a signing bonus after being drafted. Never take the first offer Shep's .02 peace
Glad to have you here contributing to the HSBBW board. This is a good question and the above answers are good, however, we need to get the other costs covered too. If they will cover that much, they'll cover the rest, IMHO. It's like a first offer in the form of a signing bonus after being drafted. Never take the first offer
Shep's .02 peace
I'm no expert, but I'm concerned about Shep's rather broad statement "Never take the first offer". There are probably situations when it makes sense to negotiate, and others when failure to accept the initial offer just tells that coach to move on to the next recruit rather than wasting his time.
quote:Originally posted by MN-Mom:
I'm no expert, but I'm concerned about Shep's rather broad statement "Never take the first offer". There are probably situations when it makes sense to negotiate, and others when failure to accept the initial offer just tells that coach to move on to the next recruit rather than wasting his time.
I suggest that one reads the book "Official Visit" by Ben Harrison.
There can be a negotiation process, and I am sure it goes on all of the time. However, in this business, it's also based on economics. If you are not one of the coach's top recruit, try to hold out for more money, possibilty (and most liekly)he will go to the other player who he is also recruting.
Those "blue chip" guys you always talk about, may have the opportunity to negotiate, others not so.
The suggestion is to ask for a "full ride". There are very, very few who will get that amount, most likely the more they give the more they hope that the recruit doesn't go pro. If anyone thinks that their player deserves a "full ride", and is a top prospect in the country, well then go for it.
I spoke to a recruiter who just retired after 40 years at a mojor D1 school and he told me he had never seen a full ride given to any ball player. He said he heard rummors about Jeter getting one but said he doubted it.
He said 1 ball player cannot make a team great so they spend most of their money on LHPs andRHP and npt even close to a full ride.
When you negotiate you are running a big risk so you have to be prepared to lose. The coach probably tales the monet from another player who hasn't committed. They withdraw that players offer.
He said 1 ball player cannot make a team great so they spend most of their money on LHPs andRHP and npt even close to a full ride.
When you negotiate you are running a big risk so you have to be prepared to lose. The coach probably tales the monet from another player who hasn't committed. They withdraw that players offer.
Consider asking the coach;
1. Is the D1 program fully funded?
2. How many players are carried on the roster?
3. What is the % of scholarships allocated to each position?
4. Is academic available, what are the criteria, and does it have any impact on the 11.7 scholarships.
A fully funded D1 program can carry 30 players, 25 travel to away games, all 30 suite up for home games. Most then carry red-shirts, as many as 4-6, maybe more. How do you think the facilities get in such great shape?
Some programs have a general idea, based on a % of scholarships that they allocate to each position. For example, at one D1 program, of the 11.7 scholarships, 7 are allocated to pitchers, 2 are allocated to catchers, and the remaining 2.7 scholarships are allocated to the infield and outfield positions. I’m not saying all D1 programs allocate scholarships by this % but the more familiar I get with all of this I would bet most are similar. It may be 6-2-3.7, 6.5-2-3.2, or something to that effect. If we broke it down further, a fully funded D1 program’s roster may look like this; 14 pitchers, 4 catchers, and 12 infield/outfield. Based on the 7-2-2.7 split and allocating all scholarships… each pitcher would get 50%, each catcher 50%, and the position players, IF/OF 22.5 %. Given your position, if you benchmark your offer based on this you can get an idea just how good the offer is. However, in the real world the allocation may look something like this;
Pitchers:
3 @ 80% 2.4 scholarships
2 @ 60% 1.2 scholarships
4 @ 50% 2.0 scholarships
5 @ 28% 1.4 scholarships
14 - 7.0 scholarships
Catchers:
1 @ 80% 0.8 scholarships
1 @ 50% 0.5 scholarships
2 @ 35% 0.7 scholarships
4 - 2.0 scholarships
Infield & Outfield:
2 @ 40% 0.8 scholarships
2 @ 35% 0.7 scholarships
4 @ 20% 0.8 scholarships
4 @ 10% 0.4 scholarships
12 - 2.7 scholarships
This algorithm is always in a state of flux. Although most D1 programs have a solid team “core” or base, players leave throughout the school year for many reasons, freeing up scholarship monies; evaluations are made after the fall workout, players may get injured, players leave due to playing time or position within the depth chart, finances, personal/family situations, sickness, grades, burn-out, MLB draft, graduation, NCAA eligibility, discipline issues, etc….
Check to see if academic scholarship is available or a “redheaded, left-handed, stepchild” scholarship. However, some conferences count academic scholarship, etc., toward the 11.7 allocation.
The point I’m trying to make is that baseball scholarships are not like basketball or football. The allocation may increase, decrease, or vanish depending on performance, scholarship availability and/or the needs of the team. An unknown phenomenal pitcher may enter a program for books and by his junior year be on an 80% scholarship. A stud all-state “blue-chip” IF/OF prospect may command 65% to sign and commit his freshman year and, if he doesn’t perform to expectations, end up at 35-40% by the end of his career. Never have I seen a 100% or “full athletic” scholarship in NCAA D1 baseball. Hope this helps.
1. Is the D1 program fully funded?
2. How many players are carried on the roster?
3. What is the % of scholarships allocated to each position?
4. Is academic available, what are the criteria, and does it have any impact on the 11.7 scholarships.
A fully funded D1 program can carry 30 players, 25 travel to away games, all 30 suite up for home games. Most then carry red-shirts, as many as 4-6, maybe more. How do you think the facilities get in such great shape?
Some programs have a general idea, based on a % of scholarships that they allocate to each position. For example, at one D1 program, of the 11.7 scholarships, 7 are allocated to pitchers, 2 are allocated to catchers, and the remaining 2.7 scholarships are allocated to the infield and outfield positions. I’m not saying all D1 programs allocate scholarships by this % but the more familiar I get with all of this I would bet most are similar. It may be 6-2-3.7, 6.5-2-3.2, or something to that effect. If we broke it down further, a fully funded D1 program’s roster may look like this; 14 pitchers, 4 catchers, and 12 infield/outfield. Based on the 7-2-2.7 split and allocating all scholarships… each pitcher would get 50%, each catcher 50%, and the position players, IF/OF 22.5 %. Given your position, if you benchmark your offer based on this you can get an idea just how good the offer is. However, in the real world the allocation may look something like this;
Pitchers:
3 @ 80% 2.4 scholarships
2 @ 60% 1.2 scholarships
4 @ 50% 2.0 scholarships
5 @ 28% 1.4 scholarships
14 - 7.0 scholarships
Catchers:
1 @ 80% 0.8 scholarships
1 @ 50% 0.5 scholarships
2 @ 35% 0.7 scholarships
4 - 2.0 scholarships
Infield & Outfield:
2 @ 40% 0.8 scholarships
2 @ 35% 0.7 scholarships
4 @ 20% 0.8 scholarships
4 @ 10% 0.4 scholarships
12 - 2.7 scholarships
This algorithm is always in a state of flux. Although most D1 programs have a solid team “core” or base, players leave throughout the school year for many reasons, freeing up scholarship monies; evaluations are made after the fall workout, players may get injured, players leave due to playing time or position within the depth chart, finances, personal/family situations, sickness, grades, burn-out, MLB draft, graduation, NCAA eligibility, discipline issues, etc….
Check to see if academic scholarship is available or a “redheaded, left-handed, stepchild” scholarship. However, some conferences count academic scholarship, etc., toward the 11.7 allocation.
The point I’m trying to make is that baseball scholarships are not like basketball or football. The allocation may increase, decrease, or vanish depending on performance, scholarship availability and/or the needs of the team. An unknown phenomenal pitcher may enter a program for books and by his junior year be on an 80% scholarship. A stud all-state “blue-chip” IF/OF prospect may command 65% to sign and commit his freshman year and, if he doesn’t perform to expectations, end up at 35-40% by the end of his career. Never have I seen a 100% or “full athletic” scholarship in NCAA D1 baseball. Hope this helps.
Smokey,
Good job! I like it!
Another thing you might want to ask, will my scholarship remain the same. Although the NLI is for one year, most college coaches should be honest. I know at son's school your amount remains the same as long as you are there, with possibly freed up money going to seniors who remain. An honest coach doesn't take away a scholarship unless they become academically ineligible. An honest coach doesn't give out scholarships randomly, then cuts back in spring.
Good job! I like it!
Another thing you might want to ask, will my scholarship remain the same. Although the NLI is for one year, most college coaches should be honest. I know at son's school your amount remains the same as long as you are there, with possibly freed up money going to seniors who remain. An honest coach doesn't take away a scholarship unless they become academically ineligible. An honest coach doesn't give out scholarships randomly, then cuts back in spring.
Few parents or players or even other coaches know what other college coaches are doing when it comes to allocating scholarships... AND ... I know for a fact there are 100% scholarships (everything) offered by D-1 programs in baseball. Granted they are few and far between but they are offered. On the topic of tuition at state supported colleges; correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that a college can give a 100% scholarship to an out of state player and the program is only “docked” 1 full scholarship.
Fungo
Fungo
"Check to see if academic scholarship is available or a “redheaded, left-handed, stepchild” scholarship. However, some conferences count academic scholarship, etc., toward the 11.7 allocation."
It's not just some conferences, it's the NCAA. There is a great thread on the HSBBW about "Scholarship blending" and it's worthwhile reading. The thread cites to the 2003 version of the NCAA Manual for how to determine what is "institutional" aid or not. If something is "institutional" aid, then it is counted against scholarship amounts IF a player also gets baseball money.
It's not just some conferences, it's the NCAA. There is a great thread on the HSBBW about "Scholarship blending" and it's worthwhile reading. The thread cites to the 2003 version of the NCAA Manual for how to determine what is "institutional" aid or not. If something is "institutional" aid, then it is counted against scholarship amounts IF a player also gets baseball money.
John, I think most experienced posters qualify their statements because pretty much everything has happened to some player at some program. How many times have we read here there aren't any 100% baseball scholarships; but if Fungo says they've happened...then they've happened!
To gauge an offer, you've got to be honest about your ability. If you've gotten serious early-round draft interest, you should expect a majority offer. If you're good enough to realisticaly expect to be considered for a starting position, you should be looking for around half. If your highly desirable with potential -- look for a third. And a lot of guys will be at a third or less.
And all this has to be reckoned against the level of the program.
What they offer will tell you a lot about how you're being considered for early PT.
I will disagree with one point --- guys have had their schollies reduced by honest coaches because of (shall we say) a lack of honest effort on the part of the player.
To gauge an offer, you've got to be honest about your ability. If you've gotten serious early-round draft interest, you should expect a majority offer. If you're good enough to realisticaly expect to be considered for a starting position, you should be looking for around half. If your highly desirable with potential -- look for a third. And a lot of guys will be at a third or less.
And all this has to be reckoned against the level of the program.
What they offer will tell you a lot about how you're being considered for early PT.
I will disagree with one point --- guys have had their schollies reduced by honest coaches because of (shall we say) a lack of honest effort on the part of the player.
WOW! This has been very helpful and thank you for welcoming me to the site. I was at work and cannot log on and respond or they will shut me down! Thank you everyone for your input. The college I speak of is a D1 state college (not a major D1 - but making an offer that is hard to refuse). I appreciate the explanations everyone has given. Also very useful was the info I found on this site for "in-home" visit.
Fungo...
You are absolutely correct. If an in-state or out-of-state player is offered 100% the program is now minus 1 scholarship. If an in-state or out-of-state player is given 75% of the total cost then the program is minus .75 of 1 scholarship. Players are listed by % qualifiers, meaning what % of 1 scholarship they receive. It has NO bearing on how much money the school has budgeted for scholarships. You can only have 11.7. Smokey's breakdown spells it out nicely in percentages.
Again, if total cost in-state is $10,000 and $20,000 out-of state including room and board, books and fees. 100% is 1 full scholarship regardless of cost. If 2 players are given 50%, one is in-state and the other out-of-state, the program spent $15,000 and would have used up 1 scholarship from the 11.7 as both boys would be 50% qualifiers.
I also agree with Fungo, there are full rides although very rare.......I have 2 pitchers playing for me now that have been offered 100% baseball money at different schools although they are smaller D1's. Last year I had 2 players who were also offered 100% with 1 of those players being offered 4 100% baseball scholarships. Again, smaller D1's.
You are absolutely correct. If an in-state or out-of-state player is offered 100% the program is now minus 1 scholarship. If an in-state or out-of-state player is given 75% of the total cost then the program is minus .75 of 1 scholarship. Players are listed by % qualifiers, meaning what % of 1 scholarship they receive. It has NO bearing on how much money the school has budgeted for scholarships. You can only have 11.7. Smokey's breakdown spells it out nicely in percentages.
Again, if total cost in-state is $10,000 and $20,000 out-of state including room and board, books and fees. 100% is 1 full scholarship regardless of cost. If 2 players are given 50%, one is in-state and the other out-of-state, the program spent $15,000 and would have used up 1 scholarship from the 11.7 as both boys would be 50% qualifiers.
I also agree with Fungo, there are full rides although very rare.......I have 2 pitchers playing for me now that have been offered 100% baseball money at different schools although they are smaller D1's. Last year I had 2 players who were also offered 100% with 1 of those players being offered 4 100% baseball scholarships. Again, smaller D1's.
Coach Merc,
I have a question. If a player's award is monetary (not in percentage), how is that counted towards the 11.7?
Let's say tuition is 20K and the award is 5K, how does money have nothing to do with it?
Why do coaches give some percentage and some money?
I have a question. If a player's award is monetary (not in percentage), how is that counted towards the 11.7?
Let's say tuition is 20K and the award is 5K, how does money have nothing to do with it?
Why do coaches give some percentage and some money?
All D-I's are allowed 11.7.....some are fully funded and some are not....
Fully funded means that they are allowed 11.7 out of state.....partially funded means that they have a certain amount of money allocated towards in-state and out-of-state respectively...they still can give 11.7 but it is up to the instituion's discretion of the breakdown....some D-I's may only have 9 scholarships....some 7 etc...just because the NCAA says you can have 11.7 does not mean all D-I's are equal.
If the institution is FULLY FUNDED and OUT OF STATE tuition/books/room and board and fees are 10K then they have $107,000.00 to offer.....Each school's compliance department gives them a percentage breakdown of scholarship $$....for example it may be.....
tuiton and fees = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship
room = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship
meals = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship
books = certain amt of $$$ = which come to a certain % of 1 scholarship
This total of $$$ will equal 1 scholarship
In-state breakdown will be different....
Fully funded means that they are allowed 11.7 out of state.....partially funded means that they have a certain amount of money allocated towards in-state and out-of-state respectively...they still can give 11.7 but it is up to the instituion's discretion of the breakdown....some D-I's may only have 9 scholarships....some 7 etc...just because the NCAA says you can have 11.7 does not mean all D-I's are equal.
If the institution is FULLY FUNDED and OUT OF STATE tuition/books/room and board and fees are 10K then they have $107,000.00 to offer.....Each school's compliance department gives them a percentage breakdown of scholarship $$....for example it may be.....
tuiton and fees = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship
room = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship
meals = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship
books = certain amt of $$$ = which come to a certain % of 1 scholarship
This total of $$$ will equal 1 scholarship
In-state breakdown will be different....
LSU is fully funded....meaning they have 11.7 scholarships to offer....all out of state if needed.....total 11.7
Austin Peay State University is partially funded......meaning they may only have 6 in state scholarships and 5.7 out of state scholarships to give....total 11.7
The NCAA allows 11.7, but it is up to the institution to divide it as they see fit....Meaning, that it behooves some institutions to sign in-state kids....some institutions may pressure coaches to do so....some may not....
Austin Peay State University is partially funded......meaning they may only have 6 in state scholarships and 5.7 out of state scholarships to give....total 11.7
The NCAA allows 11.7, but it is up to the institution to divide it as they see fit....Meaning, that it behooves some institutions to sign in-state kids....some institutions may pressure coaches to do so....some may not....
Note:
Academic aid can count against the 11.7 in some cases....not all....there are exceptions....see NCAA or talk to coach.....The coach will obviously want to do what benefits him/program/institution.
Academic aid can count against the 11.7 in some cases....not all....there are exceptions....see NCAA or talk to coach.....The coach will obviously want to do what benefits him/program/institution.
Thanks LOW337. Good info.
TPM
Hi,
The situation you mention where the offer is in $$$ and not percentages makes no difference to the school only the player. In your example above the player receives $5K of the total coast of $20K. For the programs purposes, that player is a .25 qualifier as he's receiving 25%. The benefit to the program for offers made in dollar amounts is:
Using your above example, the school makes the recruit an offer of $5K in September, the player accepts and signs his NLI in November, everyone is happy. That player has used 1/4 of 1 scholarship. When the school bill for freshman year comes, and total college cost is no longer $20K but has increased like everything else these days to $25K, the program just made out on that player because he's still gettting the $5K he signed for but he's only a .20 qualifier since his money is only 20%. The coach now has an additional .05 in scholarship money. If he gets this from a number of players (.05 from 5 players gives him an additional 25%) , it's found money in the spring and allows them to bring in some late signees.Thus the benifit of getting your offer in percentages that will automatically increase.
Where some programs benifit greatly is giving out-of-state players, in-state tuition as a benefit. A player from NY given in-state tuition at a school in SC is given as an offer of say 40% without it counting against any scholarship (difference between in-state and out-of-state). The coach can then make a small $$$ offer of $3K or $4K which on paper with total cost looks like he's getting $13 or $14K. His NLI will still only say $3K.
Have gone through this last year, I saw some very creative accounting done...
I think they make it very confusing so that none of us will ever get it 100% correct...
Hi,
The situation you mention where the offer is in $$$ and not percentages makes no difference to the school only the player. In your example above the player receives $5K of the total coast of $20K. For the programs purposes, that player is a .25 qualifier as he's receiving 25%. The benefit to the program for offers made in dollar amounts is:
Using your above example, the school makes the recruit an offer of $5K in September, the player accepts and signs his NLI in November, everyone is happy. That player has used 1/4 of 1 scholarship. When the school bill for freshman year comes, and total college cost is no longer $20K but has increased like everything else these days to $25K, the program just made out on that player because he's still gettting the $5K he signed for but he's only a .20 qualifier since his money is only 20%. The coach now has an additional .05 in scholarship money. If he gets this from a number of players (.05 from 5 players gives him an additional 25%) , it's found money in the spring and allows them to bring in some late signees.Thus the benifit of getting your offer in percentages that will automatically increase.
Where some programs benifit greatly is giving out-of-state players, in-state tuition as a benefit. A player from NY given in-state tuition at a school in SC is given as an offer of say 40% without it counting against any scholarship (difference between in-state and out-of-state). The coach can then make a small $$$ offer of $3K or $4K which on paper with total cost looks like he's getting $13 or $14K. His NLI will still only say $3K.
Have gone through this last year, I saw some very creative accounting done...
I think they make it very confusing so that none of us will ever get it 100% correct...
Interesting thread. We've learned you can get a 100% schollie, but can't get it 100% correct!
Don't forget when you are weighing offers that a cash offer is clear, but (as has been pointed out) may well be based on outdated tuition figures. Conversely, when you get a percentage offer, make sure you are very clear about percentage of what. Percentage of tuition is a lot different than percentage of cost of attendance (tuition, fees, room, board, books).
Don't forget when you are weighing offers that a cash offer is clear, but (as has been pointed out) may well be based on outdated tuition figures. Conversely, when you get a percentage offer, make sure you are very clear about percentage of what. Percentage of tuition is a lot different than percentage of cost of attendance (tuition, fees, room, board, books).
quote:Originally posted by LOW337:
All D-I's are allowed 11.7.....some are fully funded and some are not....
Fully funded means that they are allowed 11.7 out of state.....partially funded means that they have a certain amount of money allocated towards in-state and out-of-state respectively...they still can give 11.7 but it is up to the instituion's discretion of the breakdown....some D-I's may only have 9 scholarships....some 7 etc...just because the NCAA says you can have 11.7 does not mean all D-I's are equal.
If the institution is FULLY FUNDED and OUT OF STATE tuition/books/room and board and fees are 10K then they have $107,000.00 to offer.....Each school's compliance department gives them a percentage breakdown of scholarship $$....for example it may be.....
tuiton and fees = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship
room = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship
meals = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship
books = certain amt of $$$ = which come to a certain % of 1 scholarship
This total of $$$ will equal 1 scholarship
In-state breakdown will be different....
This was my understanding (explained to me by someone where son attends) but as you say, is different at different institutions. Thanks Low.
Coach Merc,
Very confusing when you stated that money has NO bearing on scholarhips, my understanding it does.
My understanding was the offer on the NLI doesn't always compute to what we think it does, for example, the 100%, when broken down may be 50% to the NCAA. Not sure if that is true.
Orlando,
True statement! How's it going? Recently passed through the city of your fav team, was thinking of you!
Ah, if only my fav team were thinking more about how to play the game properly... 
Busy, busy, busy, busy --- that's how it goes!
Busy, busy, busy, busy --- that's how it goes!
TPM
That is why I like to see dollars not percentages when speaking of a scholarship value
That is why I like to see dollars not percentages when speaking of a scholarship value
Old Fogie ... errr, Fungo ... ummm, Highly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer is correct SIR (expressed in my best Ed McMahon impersonation)! Great point and should be noted. No one knows for sure what the needs and allocation schemes are from one college to the next. It can become a real chess match when several programs are recruiting the same player. The allocation scheme used was a general rule of thumb used by several programs that I came in contact while navigating these water several years ago. My example was an attempt at putting some realistic sense as to what may be a “reasonable” offer relative to what is available and should not be compared to other D1 sports with regard to what a good offer may be. Coaches may ask you what schools are recruiting you and what they are offering. This is in an effort to gage how much scholarship “capital” they may need to commit in order to sign you. Bottom line it’s the coach or recruiter’s job to sign you as “reasonably” as possible. It is just “is what it is”. What he saves on signing you he may be able to allocate to some one sitting on the fence and vise versa. As well, I didn’t mean to give the impression that there are not full 100% baseball scholarships out there, just that I have not witnessed one. If Fungo says it’s so that enough for me…. 
quote:Originally posted by btbballfannumber1:quote:Originally posted by LOW337:
Academic aid can count against the 11.7 in some cases....not all....there are exceptions....see NCAA or talk to coach.....The coach will obviously want to do what benefits him/program/institution.
Low337 - thanks for the posts
received by that player count against the program's scholly count? How the school handles this.......is that a conference policy or ncaa across the board? what are the exceptions?
TPM - good question on the $$$ awards or percentage awards and good answer Coach Merc.
over 4 years, the difference could really add up then as total coa rises.
thanks to everyone for a good thread. lots of good info.
Some academic money is countable and some is not......I don't recall what counts and what doesn't......
For example....son recieves 50% athletic aid....also gets the equivolent of 20% from fathers work (let's say Ford Auto)...
That 20% may count, so any other aid that you will recieve other than atletic aid, please disclose to the coach/compliance so that may look into what is countable or not....
Not as confusing as I make it, I'm sure.....LOL
Great thread, thank y’all for all the insight.
I do have a question, has anybody heard of any new developments from the NCAA about expanding the 11.7 scholarship allotment?
I saw an article in Baseball America last August that the baseball committee looked at some preliminary models for increasing scholarships in baseball. One proposes raising the limit of 11.7 scholarships to about 14, still to be divvied between several players. The other is more radical, proposing 27 individual scholarships that cover tuition and fees only--leaving the responsibility of paying for housing, food and books on the students. That number was selected because an average of 26.8 players on Division I teams received some sort of scholarship aid in 2005. They indicated the second model with tuition scholarships would tighten the gap between public and private schools.
I was my understanding that they would further project these models and present them to the committee in last November’s meeting in an attempt to get the scholarship package on the legislative cycle in the future.
Any update would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
BP
I do have a question, has anybody heard of any new developments from the NCAA about expanding the 11.7 scholarship allotment?
I saw an article in Baseball America last August that the baseball committee looked at some preliminary models for increasing scholarships in baseball. One proposes raising the limit of 11.7 scholarships to about 14, still to be divvied between several players. The other is more radical, proposing 27 individual scholarships that cover tuition and fees only--leaving the responsibility of paying for housing, food and books on the students. That number was selected because an average of 26.8 players on Division I teams received some sort of scholarship aid in 2005. They indicated the second model with tuition scholarships would tighten the gap between public and private schools.
I was my understanding that they would further project these models and present them to the committee in last November’s meeting in an attempt to get the scholarship package on the legislative cycle in the future.
Any update would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
BP
Good question, but I think if many schools have 11.7 and not funding them all, why would they want more?
It is my understanding the private universities are pushing for it to level the playing field with the public universities.
A spokesperson in the article stated,"The one nice thing about it is now cost for all kids is going to be pretty much the same because room and board is pretty much the same between all universities--public and private. (Recruiters) would be selling the school, academics and program tradition--not the cost anymore."
Collegiate baseball has came a long ways for a number universities in the past decade, so I could see where expansion of scholarships would make sense. However, on the flip side I could see where it might create a market of haves versus the have nots. Nevertheless, expansion could help the finanical burden for more baseball families.
Regards
BP
A spokesperson in the article stated,"The one nice thing about it is now cost for all kids is going to be pretty much the same because room and board is pretty much the same between all universities--public and private. (Recruiters) would be selling the school, academics and program tradition--not the cost anymore."
Collegiate baseball has came a long ways for a number universities in the past decade, so I could see where expansion of scholarships would make sense. However, on the flip side I could see where it might create a market of haves versus the have nots. Nevertheless, expansion could help the finanical burden for more baseball families.
Regards
BP
Coach Merc has been the one clear voice of reason within this very complicated area, as far as my experiences have gone, and believe you I did a lot of research. As I was hoping my son could also get Merit awards, or other assistance. (FED loans ETC) And it is VERY confusing... That's why they hire compliance officers.
My understanding is
As far as the NCAA is concerned and the count towards the 11.7. In State or Out of State makes no difference. Again you add up what is will cost THAT particular PLAYER to attend that school... (formula given above) and get a percentage of whatever the scholarship AWARD value is and that is the allotment to the NCAA regulation of 11.7 Scholarships.
Coaches can make an offer in dollar amount or a percentage. However if FEES or COST to attend the college do go up... A percentage offer protects the player while a dollar amount could help the coach in his allocation to the 11.7.
So all of this makes a lot of difference to the AD and coach and their budgets.
For example...
Player A is IN-state and Cost for in state are $20,000 and he is given a $10000 award. (assume fees do not go up) That counts as .50 toward the 11.7 and uses up $10,000 in budget.
Player B is out of state and cost for him is $40,000 He is given a 50% award and it also counts .50 to the 11.7 but the cost to the budget is $20000. Because no state funding is used, and the extra 10K has to come from the scholarship funds. (Thus it is much cheaper to the Athletic department to give the same scholarship to IN-State players than Out of State Players)
But then it really gets confusing as then the FEDs and other agencies that provide other scholarships and aid, get into the act.
An EFC (est family contribution is calculated) And then your baseball scholarship is added to that to see what these agencies believe to be any additional NEED. So any FED loans or other assistance based on NEED will go down the higher the baseball award goes up.
For instance say tuition is 40K and your EFC is considered 15K. (all based on your income) And then you get 50% baseball scholarship. Well most of the FED and AID agnecies then look at your need as only 5K,
40K-15K-20K = 5K and you will probably only get loans up to that amount.
If however the same is true above but the scholarship award is .25 or 10K the agencies will see you as 40-15-10=15k AND YOU might GET MORE NEED ASSISTANCE, to cover the 15K of need, perhaps a grant.
Vice versa... if the scholarship increases then the need goes down... and overall cost to the family will stay close to the EFC. (unless baseball scholarship exceeds that coverage)
Stanford is the master of this as they require all recruites to first Apply for admission and then apply for finanicial Aid, provide 1040s, fill up an FAFSA worksheet and turn it into them.
They then figure out how they can award you the most $$$ by using the least amount of BASEBALL Budget. (since they are private in CA, IN-State or Out of state doesn't matter)
They get all the $$$ they can from OTHER AGENCIES, before using thier own budget.
My one word of ADVICE is to talk in depth with the schools financial aid office.
My understanding is
As far as the NCAA is concerned and the count towards the 11.7. In State or Out of State makes no difference. Again you add up what is will cost THAT particular PLAYER to attend that school... (formula given above) and get a percentage of whatever the scholarship AWARD value is and that is the allotment to the NCAA regulation of 11.7 Scholarships.
Coaches can make an offer in dollar amount or a percentage. However if FEES or COST to attend the college do go up... A percentage offer protects the player while a dollar amount could help the coach in his allocation to the 11.7.
So all of this makes a lot of difference to the AD and coach and their budgets.
For example...
Player A is IN-state and Cost for in state are $20,000 and he is given a $10000 award. (assume fees do not go up) That counts as .50 toward the 11.7 and uses up $10,000 in budget.
Player B is out of state and cost for him is $40,000 He is given a 50% award and it also counts .50 to the 11.7 but the cost to the budget is $20000. Because no state funding is used, and the extra 10K has to come from the scholarship funds. (Thus it is much cheaper to the Athletic department to give the same scholarship to IN-State players than Out of State Players)
But then it really gets confusing as then the FEDs and other agencies that provide other scholarships and aid, get into the act.
An EFC (est family contribution is calculated) And then your baseball scholarship is added to that to see what these agencies believe to be any additional NEED. So any FED loans or other assistance based on NEED will go down the higher the baseball award goes up.
For instance say tuition is 40K and your EFC is considered 15K. (all based on your income) And then you get 50% baseball scholarship. Well most of the FED and AID agnecies then look at your need as only 5K,
40K-15K-20K = 5K and you will probably only get loans up to that amount.
If however the same is true above but the scholarship award is .25 or 10K the agencies will see you as 40-15-10=15k AND YOU might GET MORE NEED ASSISTANCE, to cover the 15K of need, perhaps a grant.
Vice versa... if the scholarship increases then the need goes down... and overall cost to the family will stay close to the EFC. (unless baseball scholarship exceeds that coverage)
Stanford is the master of this as they require all recruites to first Apply for admission and then apply for finanicial Aid, provide 1040s, fill up an FAFSA worksheet and turn it into them.
They then figure out how they can award you the most $$$ by using the least amount of BASEBALL Budget. (since they are private in CA, IN-State or Out of state doesn't matter)
They get all the $$$ they can from OTHER AGENCIES, before using thier own budget.
My one word of ADVICE is to talk in depth with the schools financial aid office.
This is the way I tried to explain it earlier. The $$ money figures are just examples. You should be able to obtain a similar breakdown from the coach.
In State
Tuition $9,000 = 59%
Room $3,200 = 21%
Board $2,500 = 16%
Books $500 = 04%
Full $15,200 = 100% Full Scholarship
Out of State
Tuition $18,000 = 75%
Room $3,200 = 13%
Board $2,500 = 10%
Books $500 = 02%
Full $24,2000 = 100% Full Scholarship
So if I'm the head coach it will cost me less (percentage wise) to sign in state kids from a tuition stand point. And in most cases to sign out of state kids you have to give them at least a good chunk of the out of state tuition, depending on need/talent of course.
In State
Tuition $9,000 = 59%
Room $3,200 = 21%
Board $2,500 = 16%
Books $500 = 04%
Full $15,200 = 100% Full Scholarship
Out of State
Tuition $18,000 = 75%
Room $3,200 = 13%
Board $2,500 = 10%
Books $500 = 02%
Full $24,2000 = 100% Full Scholarship
So if I'm the head coach it will cost me less (percentage wise) to sign in state kids from a tuition stand point. And in most cases to sign out of state kids you have to give them at least a good chunk of the out of state tuition, depending on need/talent of course.
Although the in-state or out of state uses the allotted sholarships equally, it does impact the money (or, probably more accurately, expected revenue) the uni receives. A program's relationship with the administration is crucial.
This is another reason we see so many state institutions recruiting so few out-of-state players. One coach said, "if I'm recruiting out of state, he better be a stud or I've got problems I don't need with the administration."
This is another reason we see so many state institutions recruiting so few out-of-state players. One coach said, "if I'm recruiting out of state, he better be a stud or I've got problems I don't need with the administration."
good day
having stumbled upon an always interesting thread that always tends to confuse newcomers, I'll add 2 cents
full rides ARE real
fungo and merc have a clear grasp of the situation - sdbb is not far behind - - it was his coach who laid it out for me till I got it.
one "full tuition" is just what it says -
to the program's acounting & NCAA compliance it's $$ amount is not changed by the player's home address - - BUT - - it's "value" will be greater to an out of state player
ex: one "full tuition" split 50/50 between an "instate" & "out of state" = "1 tuition used" viewed by the NCAA & compliance, tho it has different values to each player - -
the other portions (room, board, books, fees) are straight $$ amounts having the same value to anyone (tho room, board, etc, dollars can be allocated/used for player tuition(s) as well)
in "Hope Scholly" states, a program can fund some "full tuitions" for "Hope qualifiers" with a bit of the program's book money $$
tho some schools may want a certain % of recruits be "in-state", it's not because it's expensive to the program - - they actually make good $$ on out of state kids - -
the remainder of what the "out of state" kid owes the school will be far greater $ wise
than the "in state" kid - - & thats money the school never sees if the "out of state" guy goes elsewhere.
regarding questions for the coach?
I never thought to ask, but was fortunate that the school my son attends trys to offer athletes the max standards allowable by the NCAA
soo - ask about their policies on 5th yr financial aid for athletes w/eligebilty expired - -
many schools do NOT give it, & those that do have varying guidlines/requirements -
avoid surprises
hope that helps
having stumbled upon an always interesting thread that always tends to confuse newcomers, I'll add 2 cents
full rides ARE real
fungo and merc have a clear grasp of the situation - sdbb is not far behind - - it was his coach who laid it out for me till I got it.
one "full tuition" is just what it says -
to the program's acounting & NCAA compliance it's $$ amount is not changed by the player's home address - - BUT - - it's "value" will be greater to an out of state player
ex: one "full tuition" split 50/50 between an "instate" & "out of state" = "1 tuition used" viewed by the NCAA & compliance, tho it has different values to each player - -
the other portions (room, board, books, fees) are straight $$ amounts having the same value to anyone (tho room, board, etc, dollars can be allocated/used for player tuition(s) as well)
in "Hope Scholly" states, a program can fund some "full tuitions" for "Hope qualifiers" with a bit of the program's book money $$
tho some schools may want a certain % of recruits be "in-state", it's not because it's expensive to the program - - they actually make good $$ on out of state kids - -
the remainder of what the "out of state" kid owes the school will be far greater $ wise
than the "in state" kid - - & thats money the school never sees if the "out of state" guy goes elsewhere.
regarding questions for the coach?
I never thought to ask, but was fortunate that the school my son attends trys to offer athletes the max standards allowable by the NCAA
soo - ask about their policies on 5th yr financial aid for athletes w/eligebilty expired - -
many schools do NOT give it, & those that do have varying guidlines/requirements -
avoid surprises
hope that helps
Orlando,
I have never understood why it COST more to educate an out-of-state student than an in-state student. I do understand the institutions CHARGES more, but it seems to me the cost would be the same. It ain’t like they gotta send a big yellow bus across the state line to pick up the students.
Fungo
I have never understood why it COST more to educate an out-of-state student than an in-state student. I do understand the institutions CHARGES more, but it seems to me the cost would be the same. It ain’t like they gotta send a big yellow bus across the state line to pick up the students.
Fungo