2 Questions about Hitting

quote:

1 – What is the major reason MLB Scouting Departments test vision?

I think I could it better if I could see, so can they. I know I could find my own golf ball

2 – Where did all these Major League hitters learn how to hit? I understand the value in

I think it is still a process for them too. They learn from all the places where they have played. Everybody looks for an edge still I believe.

I played golf today and hit it real bad. I stopped a friend and he went to the range with me.

I knew I was outside the line at the top but couldn't fix it. He watched me hit three balls and closed my front shoulder down and raised my lead arm and narrowed my stance. Got inside out & Concentrated on " ball on a rope" let the barrel work cues and .....boom.

Instantly a ball that was feeling as heavy a bowling ball started flying 285 effortlessly.

...anybodies mechanics can get off.....its a process...they have good years and not so good years

But where did they learn those mechanics that we study and use for teaching?

Did they all learn from the same person? Or is it possible there are many excellent hitting instructors? If there are many great hitting coaches who are helping these ML hitters that we study... so that we can know more about hitting... Why do we disregard what these same hitting coaches teach?

Or could it be that proper hitting mechanics also include a lot of natural ability? It has to be one or the other because I doubt these hitters got that way by reading the websites.

quote:

Or could it be that proper hitting mechanics also include a lot of natural ability?

Friend that wins AL amateur golf hasn't a clue what he does. Played for Auburn too. He practices a lot but is not really a student of the game in our sense.

I know I have benefited greating at these sites. I would have never been well versed without them . I think I have helped many kids because of others shifting what I thought was right and rethinking and testing. For many of us it is the best resource.

I have attended many clinics but often the talks are 15 minute , grip, stance, stride, swing, follow through, ....very superficial. I would not have seen whats happening at all.

OTOH...I have meet some coaches at ABCA that captivated me with their relavent knowledge. I know they are out there and plenty of them

swingbuster,

I admit... don't think I'll ever completely figure it out, but it's fun to hear what others have to say. I'm kind of old, but can still remember the many things we were taught wrong as a kid. Even seen things change that were once considered the gospel in baseball. Was always bothered by people who would not change their minds despite proven improvements in everything from training to mechanics.

I commend you and others in your search for information. The only thing I'm fairlysure of is whatever is correct now will be improved in the future. It's because there are people like those involved here who keep thinking.

I hope everyone here realizes that what appears perfection now will be improved in the future. So long as there are people who will never accept complete satisfaction in knowledge.

quote:

The only thing I'm fairly sure of is whatever is correct now will be improved in the future.

No doubt...applying the messages will always be function of how one interprets it.

I think there is a better understanding of the WHOLE swing process and it is shared to more people through modern technology.

People might follow Mankin, Epstein, NY-man, Guerry or other's teaching models but in years past( my youth) ; they seemed to operationalize the whole swing off of single cues ...hit down, roll those writs etc and many were wrong and stunted kids development.

The reason all of us come here is to avoid repeating that same mistake.

I am totally results driven...when I use something and see the ball flight( power and direction of power) I am impressed. That is why I gravitate to Guerry at time..results

Saying that vision is critical to hitting is stating the obvious. There was a case in 1984 when the White Sox selected an outfielder from Washington with the second of two first-round picks they had (23rd overall, I think). Gave him $100,000 or so, big money then. Was out of baseball withing a year and a half because he could not hit and had trouble picking up balls in the outfield. The reason - a pretty severe depth perception problem with his eyesight. I watched him take BP in Spring 1985. He couldn't tell how far away the ball was. Tough to hit and play centerfield with that problem.

Hitting has evolved and will continue to do so. Once upon a time it was taught to step in the direction that the ball was pitched to hit it that way. Not too long ago, linear concepts were state-of-the-art. Now, rotational hitting is the standard.

Coaches utilizing digital technology clearly see things that were nearly invisible to the eye only a few years go. Hitters will continue to improve as coaches continue redefining and perfecting the art of hitting.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
...That is why I gravitate to Guerry at time..results

Really....funny how he won't post any clips of his results. Englishbey destroyed him on eteamz. gJohnson destroyed him on Shawn's site. Of course, ***** destroys him at ******.

Where are the results? Clips please.

Linear

Is that the question many ask you?

Where are the results?

Same BS all the time-- you answer questions with questions-- Change your ID to the Spin Doctor--it will work better

quote:

Spin Doctor

Spinning hitters and cryptic instructions.

PGStaff,

Great questions. Let me throw my two cents in.

1) Eyesight - If I were an MLB team - paying an athlete - I would want to make sure the athlete had the best vision possible. I have no idea why an MLB team would want a player in the game with vision that was not optimal.
I would also be interested in all aspects of the athlete's vision - including but not limited to peripheral vision. (I know this doesnt answer your question - hopefully someone will provide a more specific answer).

2) I think alot of it has to do with great coaching. But natural athletic ability is still the key for me. You cannot teach speed - strength - agility - hand/eye coordination, etc... You can improve those attributes with hard work - but you cannot supply it and you cannot teach it.

I also believe that the more gifted you are athletically - the easier it is to make the adjustments necessary as you move up in the game and/or as you get older.

JMHO.

Its

I totally agree with point one

Point two--in my mind if the player has the talent and tools but good coaching and hard work will purely define and refine his ability

It was something bbscout brought up that got me to thinking. I agree there are some bad coaches at every level including professional. bbscout said he looks for those things that 90% of the time MLB hitters do the same. (or something like that) Linear, Bluedog, swingbuster, and many others including myself utilize video to answer questions.

Then there have been discussions regarding credentials and questions asked about proven results and naming successful hitters who have been taught by those who have expressed strong opinions. (not sure opinion is the right word here)

Guess my point is… If we can watch video of the so called great swings of MLB hitters and use them as ammunition in debating right or wrong technique… Why not simply find out how they developed this technique we all seem to agree on.

Common sense tells us they didn’t all have the same teacher. So could we accurately assume there are many great teachers out there some where. Perhaps we are studying what these great instructors/coaches already know?

Yet when all the arguments start, they always involve people who study these hitters and use them as examples on behalf of their theory. If someone didn’t teach/coach these hitters then it means it’s all about natural ability (highly unlikely). If someone did teach/coach them… Then we could simply claim those people are the true experts on hitting. After all, they must have the knowledge, the ability to teach it, the experience and the credentials/results.

So is anyone really inventing anything or are we simply trying to figure out something that many people already know? And if so... why not just pick the brain of the experts, you know... the old fashion way of learning.

Its.. made another great point. One thing that I find is a measure of a true athlete is the ability to make adjustments. Body awareness is such an important part of learning mechanics. I also believe that vision is a very important and under-exercised aspect. Many schools are doing quite a bit of vision training. I also, and will probably hear from some on this, feel that some hitters have amazing hand eye coordination and the ability to hit the ball well with poor mechanics because they have a great approach to hitting at the plate. Others may have great mechanics and poor hand-eye coordination and vision or a poor approach to hitting. It is the player that can refine and excell in all these areas that we look at and say "That's how it is done!" I am sure that all of the best hitters that we see have all of the above traits and continue to develop them throughout there careers.

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So is anyone really inventing anything or are we simply trying to figure out something that many people already know?

Change last word from "know" to "do".

As far as MLB players and film we can see what they do. We do not know what they "know".

Their books so far have come short of describing it.

swingbuster,

Perhaps I wasn't perfectly clear. The players do... what the teacher knows! Who taught the players how to do? No one?

Is it possible these people who know... can't write books?

PG

or better yet they dont want to

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
...If someone didn’t teach/coach these hitters then it means it’s all about natural ability (highly unlikely)...

Invalid conclusion. IMHO.

Most mlb hitters can not point to a person who taught them. They can point to people who coached them over their lives. Each person helped a little, I suppose. Tid bit here. Tid bit there.

But, the single most determining factor is the players willingness to use trial and error. Try this. Try that. Rule this in. Rule this out. Practice, fail, pick yourself up, practice, get a hit, fail, fail, fail, pick yourself up, t work, soft toss, bp, bp, bp, trial and error over and over and over. Some will have a goal big enough to persist. Some will not.

Some are lucky, in that, for whatever reason, the first time they picked up a bat they were much closer to a mlb swing than the next guy. Why? Who knows. Emulation probably. Maybe just pure luck. But the benefit of that is earlier success, therefore, earlier confidence, therefore, more success, therefore more confidence etc. The guy who didn't swing it as well the first time had less success, less confidence, more failure, less confidence and eventually....quit.

To confuse the issue, those aren't the only two categories. Throw in the "athlete" who's technique sucked but still hit because of his athleticism. He had success to a certain point, then fails, and cannot recover because his mechancis are engrained. He hits the wall.

All good coaches try to do is reduce the trial and error period. I already know the arms are not used in the swing. Do you know how long it could take a hitter to figure that out? Especially with the well meaning but less informed coaches standing in the way?

The long and short of it is most mlb players found their swing from the "luck" of the trial and error process.

Analyzing and teaching are two different animals. Analysis is much easier than teaching. Just listen to one of these mlb hitting coaches, or for that matter, one of the mlb players, describe their swing. Then compare the video of their swing to what they say. Wow. You would be amazed at how their words don't match their actions.

One thing is for sure. They use their center different than the rest. And, they may not know it. Probably don't know it. They know what and how to do do it, but studying video of this part of the swing, how they use their center, will be inconclusive to those without the proper education. And, since they do something different "underneath" than anyone else, and they don't know it, but assume everyone else is using their center the same, when in reality they aren't, then nothing else they say applies to the other player. Until all use their center properly, the rest doesn't matter.

Linear,

Good discription, but is it possible your assuming a bit more than you know for absolutely sure. Do you really think the hitting coaches are insignificant and that no one listens to them? I do agree with your trial and error theory, that's for sure.

I listened to Lee Elia work with hitters and he used very simple terms that (for example) describing how to handle the inside pitch. His students were among the best prospects in the country. A few who we will be studying their swing before long. This all took place when he was the hitting coach for Seattle. ARod, Griffey, Edgar were on that team at the time. I thought the lessons he was providing was fairly new stuff (to me anyway) and the hitters were picking it up pretty quickly.

Also at the same time I watched Billy Connors work with top level pitchers. The terms he used were even simpler. He is the master of minor adjustments. Granted I doubt if either of these two knows anything about physics, but they know hitting and pitching inside out. And both command respect even from superstars, so they are able to get through to people.

What I have discovered is many of the very best, well known within MLB baseball, instructors and coaches... Do NOT write books, do lessons, or make instructional videos. Maybe you would actually agree with some of what those guys teach.

PG

Where did I say "no one listens to them".

Secondly, your example of Lee Elia needs to be explained. He's talking to mlb quality hitters (prospects) about how to handle the inside pitch. That is hitting instruction versus swing instruction. There is a significant difference between the two.

I would bet Billy Connors was doing the same thing but different. Teaching pitching versus teaching throwing.

There is no question that one needs to know not only how to swing but also how to hit. But, it is rather difficult learning how to hit if you don't know how to swing. And, that is where I see them break down big time.

Linear,

I agree with the difference between the swing and how to hit. They can be separate subjects though closely related.

The one thing I wish you had asked Albert Pujols was who (if anyone) helped him become the hitter he is. I saw Albert several times before he was drafted. He definitely has changed his swing and his approach in Pro Ball. Wouldn’t it be interesting to know how that happened?

PG:
That is very interesting! I have watched Pujols' swing, sitting with my son, going frame by frame, and marvelled at its beauty.

I had no idea that his approach has changed since he turned pro. In my opinion he has one of the best swings in the game.

If he has changed it since going pro, that means someone probably worked with him to do it, and that it is possible to re-tool a swing.

Tiger Woods has done it twice, so we know that the very best and most dedicated athletes are able to do such things with the proper discipline, training and help.

I always figured Pujols always swung like a dream.

There was no doubt that Pujols had outstanding hitting ability before turning pro. He also was a very talented shortstop with a strong arm and great hands. He showed great bat speed and power potential but his swing was a bit longer with more effort. There is no doubt that his swing has been improved greatly. Just curious how that happened and who (other than Albert) is most responsible.

Let's face it... Albert was drafted in the 13th round (I think) I am good friends with the scout who signed him for something like $30,000. So Albert was not really what you could call a can't miss MLB hitter back then.

As a side note, the scout who signed Albert Pujols was fired by the Cardinals a couple years ago. Talk about... What have you done for me lately!

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
......Imagine talking grip with Ty Cobb......And, who influenced Mantle's long stride?......

True - And can you imagine talking about "chaos" - or the "hands and arms going along for the ride"?

They would rip your head off.

LOL

quote:

My guess is, they talked about how to move the body to create momentum and then control it......

And maybe their new IPODS and cell phones too.

The main reason I see so few hitters swinging the bat like a major leaguer is that it is not the way a young kid would do it naturally. Left to their own resources, it is more natural for a young kid to step into the ball and use their own momentum to swing their heavy bat.

Unless someone has the know-how and the kid has the desire to undo this natural mechanic, it becomes engrained and is near impossible to ever overcome. Most kids never do and therefore continue to advance until their flawed mechanics catch up to them.

It’s been my personal observation that a lot of instruction out there just reinforces some of the mechanic flaws. Most advice I’ve seen revolves around the mantra, “Every one is different so it’s wrong to teach the same mechanics to everyone”. Another is, “Leave little Johnny alone because he is hitting the ball just fine”.

The truth is usually closer to Little Johnny is hitting the ball because his athletic ability is so far keeping ahead of the pitching. It’s just a matter of time until he reaches a level where his flawed mechanics allow him to advance no further.

By the time Johnny might actually find an instructor that has the knowledge and fortitude to really help the kid, it’s probably too late. The only way the kid could ever have a big league swing would be to break both his arms and legs and start over.

SBK,

I have living proof that you are correct!

Interesting topic. I think the importance of excellent vision can't be over-stated, but just as inportant, in my opinion, is a high quality hitting coach and I believe there are too few of them.

We have a kid on our team with phenomenal eyesight. At the AAU Jr. Olympics a few years ago, the American Optometric Association was providing complimentary vision screening to all athletes who wanted to go through the tests. I had my entire team go through the screening that included something like 15 or more different vision tests. Most of the kids tested pretty much along average, but one kid stood out. His visual acuity was 20/15, depth perception was in the top 5% of all people, hand-eye coordination again in the top bracket, and speed of recognition was in like the top 1 or 2% of all people. Every vision test that was given, this kid scored right up near the top.

This kid who has exceptional vision is also an outstanding hitter, one of the very best high school hitters in our city. This will be his 4th season starting varsity for his high school, and he'll probably hit around .500, like he did last year. Most important, he nearly always makes hard contact. He's already signed a NLI for a very nice scolarship with a good D-1 school and has a very bright future. I firmely believe he sees things that most of us miss, also that he sees and recognizes them quicker.

As far as hitting coaches are concerned, I don't think the value of a quality hitting coach can be minimized. A good coach picks up on minor flaws in a swing, or ways to make a swing more efficient and teaches that to his hitters. There are many hitting coaches out there, not all of them can do this.

Here's a video clip of a pretty good hitter, with narration by a another pretty good hitter, who's also a pretty good hitting coach.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/bonds/flash.htm

Of course, I'm joking about "pretty good". Here's a chance to watch the best, with commentary from the best. Enjoy, and learn.

Do you buy bridges?

I think Gwynn has a lot of important things to say in spite of his lack of "scientific correctness".

Among other things in Gwynn on Bonds, I like the:
"Don't force the bottom half. Get in position (the "first part of hitting" as he describes earlier frame #3) then pull with the bottom hand and keep the hands in."

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
...then pull with the bottom hand and keep the hands in."

And just how do you pull with the bottom hand and keep the hands in????? He has to mean something other than what he says. You think he means turn the torso? Do you think he means "turn the bottom hand on"?

How do you pull with the bottom hand and leave the hands in?

A great reason not to listen to their words.

Watch what they do. Don't listen to them speak.

tom.guerry, I think you see it pretty much correct. Gwynn may or may not describe things the way some people can relate, but he's seeing and identifying things that he likes in Bond's swing. Of course, some people will attack that commentary or subject of the video clip, but I'd rather listen to and watch those two guys than most others who have opinions, especially the ones who emulate ****** orifices.

As I read and think about these discussions of hitting I really think about semantics. I think that a number of people out there could work with a group of kids and achieve identicle results all the while using very different terminology. I feel that in many cases it is not the terminology that matters as much as how well you relay that terminology. Good instructors and coaches can use up to date methods and learning and teach them in a very simplified manner. Complex results through simplified teaching. Someone that can translate 8 pages of hitting or pitching mechanical analysis in to a small simple number of steps is the person that will have the most success. I think of the Pujols conversation with the young players. He is relating complex ideas in a very simplified and correct approach that will yield results. THe destination is the goal whether you take the highway or winding backroad is up to the individual.

In reality, Gwynne is saying all the right things.

A quick translation would be that Bonds is not swinging the bat but pulling the weight of the bat head through the zone.

It is the very basis of the principle of leverage and the use of the fulcrum.

Once the bat is raised and the greatest amount of potential energy is set, the combined use (pulling down) of that energy (gravity and weight) will bring about the greatest result.

Making contact is the next step where repetition comes into play. The enduring expressions are 'know your pitch' 'develop your hitting zone'.

Most children, if given the right weight bat, will use a very near perfect 'swing'.

Tuning that swing up and adding the principles of leverage just allows the batter to generate greater power.

Most great hitters were either never coached while young or were able to overcome that coaching.

If coaching as it is being done were successfull, more hitters would be making more contact and hiting more home runs (without the benefit of performance enhancing substances).

quote:

Originally posted by WillieBobo:
In reality, Gwynne is saying all the right things.

A quick translation would be that Bonds is not swinging the bat but pulling the weight of the bat head through the zone.

It is the very basis of the principle of leverage and the use of the fulcrum...

If it's so basic and so simple tell me this.

Can the bat angularly displace around the hands while the hands are moving forward? The answer is no. It won't displace until the hands stop.

So, as you move your hands forward....by pulling the knob with your lower arm......you are delaying the angular displacement of the bat. Just what a hitter needs......slop.....slack.....a delay in his barrel coming around.

No, sir, it's not basic use of a fulcrum to pull the knob with the bottom hand. You don't have time for this to happen. If the bat doesn't angularly displace immediately upon launch, you're going to have it sawed off in your hands.

The angular displacement is a natural.

Gravity brings the bat down.

By pulling with the lower hand, the upper hand becomes the fulcrum initially.

Once the bat is in motion, the fulcrum then becomes the body.

Hitters who rely solely on the wrists as the secondary fulcrum are usually high average, good contact hitters.

Hitting and early pitching machines had this double fulcrum principle.

The contact point and the follow thru are in reality after-effects of pulling the bat down with the lower hand.

Seeing that you are in the Mid West, I ask if you ever used an ax or mall to split fire wood. If you have, you understand the double fulcrum.

Sometimes I don't know how to respond or comment to some of this jargon. Some may say that I shouldn't. SBK, Guerry and cathcersdad made some great comments and I, like PG have living proof. In my case its workng tirelessly with young hitters to retrain or as I phrase, adjust to improve, there swing mechanics. I have seen many kids pick up the trainng and go on to be fine hitters. There are some super athletes out there that could excel in any sport, but may still have trouble hitting. I believe its still the hardest thing to do successfully in sports. A young hitter can be taught to be successful in high school, but may not be talented enough for the college level. Many college hitters will never play in the minors, but they still know how to do it. Talent can always be enhanced and refined, vision can be medically adjusted or enhanced, if its found to be faulty. A combination of talent, training, coaching, heart and desire will give a player the most advancement opportunities.

Coachric

quote:

So, as you move your hands forward....by pulling the knob with your lower arm

Who said this was "how" to pull the knob. Pulling the knob is primarily via lead arm internal rotation. This acts with the back arm to TURN the bat and accentuates coil, and keeps the hands back. It does not push the hands forward. Mankin is also very clear on avoiding pushing/extending the handpath.Epstein also describes keeping the hands in well.

(this was one point in the ironnyman demonstrations testing mankin's tht that was clearly misunderstood or misrepresented by N.he was claiming the only way of applying active force with the back arm was by extension which pushes the handpath out,this is obviously not the case and I would suspect N knows that, but maybe he is unable to grasp it)

Lau would make the point that you are "pulling the knob with the arm (lead arm) not the shoulders" (which avoids drag/disconnection).

You are turning not dragging the bat as the twist works up to turn the shoulders.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:

quote:

So, as you move your hands forward....by pulling the knob with your lower arm

Who said this was "how" to pull the knob...

Um...your buddy Tony Gwynn said it......

"by pulling the knob with the lower arm."

You know, the one you said you really liked his comment/description of what Bonds is doing.

Sounds like maybe you don't like what he's saying.

Which is it.....Flip........or Flop?

quote:

Originally posted by WillieBobo:


By pulling with the lower hand, the upper hand becomes the fulcrum initially.

hogwash

quote:

Once the bat is in motion, the fulcrum then becomes the body.

that may be the goal but you don't get there by "pulling on the knob with the lower hand"

quote:

Hitters who rely solely on the wrists as the secondary fulcrum are usually high average, good contact hitters.

no, hitters that do this are playing s****r.

quote:

Seeing that you are in the Mid West, I ask if you ever used an ax or mall to split fire wood. If you have, you understand the double fulcrum.

totally unrelated to hitting. First, you are under no time pressure. Second, it still remains.....maybe you need a definition of angular displacement.....the barrel will not arc or angularly displace while the hands are moving forward, independently.

I have a simple question-- how come all the top MLB hitters dont hit in the manner that Linear says is the only way?

I just don't understand it--if his way is the only way why isn't he a MLB instructor with loads of videos and instruction books on the net?

Am I missing something here!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

Am I missing something here!!!!

You got this part right.

linear-

the knob needs to be pulled with the lead arm in a way that does NOT move the hands forward/disconnect.what is so difficult for you to understand about that ?

Tom

He understands what he wants to and nothing else

Hitting is about generating speed of the bat head and making contact with the target.

With the initial pull downward of the bat, the upper hand remains slightly firm and becomes the fulcrum causing the bat to move in the opposite direction of the force applied (the swing).

The upper hand (arm ) in the grip is just guiding the bat in its flight along with the lower pulling hand after the primary fulcrum effect.

There is bat head speed produced by the lever effect greater than that which can be produced by simply swinging the bat.

The increased speed of the weight of the bat head making contact with the target (ball) creates a greater impact causing greater energy to be released in the contact.

Hitters who use the wrists as the secondary fulcrum have historically been called 'slap hitters'. They usually lead the league in base hits and doubles.

Hitters who can keep their hands in and generate greater speed on the bat head (without effort at this point) are known as power hitters.

Same principle applies in generating the speed of the club head in golf.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
linear-

the knob needs to be pulled with the lead arm in a way that does NOT move the hands forward/disconnect.what is so difficult for you to understand about that ?

If it is being pulled by the lead arm in such a way that does not move the hands......then the arm isn't doing the pulling. Very simple.

I bet the shoulder is doing the work. And, I bet the shoulder is being turned by the center.

Wille, eloquently stated.

Coachric

Willie's top hand description is muchlike the Mankin "oar lock" analogy.

My "thinking" following the overall Epstein model is that as the uncoking of the bat progresses.accelerating primarily by lead arm knob pulling (without push/disconecting hands) the primary role of the back arm/top hand is to stay with the back shoulder and assist in setting the up/down plane of the swing/adjusting for up/down by how more/less upright the axis of rotation gets before the bathead fires. The top hand can stay back and provide oar lock resistance to work with the lead arm as this happens.

quote:

Most children, if given the right weight bat, will use a very near perfect 'swing'.

Not so, at all.......A child will reach with his hands and arms to get the bat around to the ball......So will all hitters until they train their body not to do this......Problem is, 99.9% of all hitters will never be aware there is a different and better way to swing......

Bluedog,

In 1976 - 30 full years ago - every single one of the starting nine on my team did not swing the bat the way you just described. Every single one of them used their "center" (as you call it) - as the foundation for their swing.

All 9 of them. 30 years ago.

Bluedog,

Heres the problem. When you are presented with facts you dont agree with - you deny those facts exist.

Your "discussions" would carry alot more weight - IMO - if you practiced what you preach.

Unfortunately - you dont do that. Your mind is shut closed. A steel trap - engraved with your theory and only your theory - (with a pinch of marketing influence thrown in - LOL)

Have improvements in mechanics been identified over the years? Absolutely.
Did every young player in high school or college "swing with their arms" over the last 30 years - nonsense.

Pure unadulterated nonsense. IMO.

Bob Nadal was teaching the use of your "center" - 30 years ago. As I am sure many others were.

You need to face the facts - not deny them.
Only then can you truly learn - grasshopper. LOL

Game, there were teachers in the past who realized the importance of athletes using their center.........No doubt about it......That is an undeniable fact.......

Doesn't change the fact that 99.9% of amateur hitters swing with their hands and arms, though....They always have and still do......You can use your center and swing with your hands and arms.....Heck, Swingbuster and Tom advocate doing just that.......

The real problem is, you don't understand swing technique.......

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Bluedog,

In 1976 - 30 full years ago - every single one of the starting nine on my team did not swing the bat the way you just described. Every single one of them used their "center" (as you call it) - as the foundation for their swing.

All 9 of them. 30 years ago.

And the point is 30 years later someone has finally come very close to defining what the f they were doing.

And, it came from someone outside of baseball.

Very revealing facts.

Truthfully - we didnt worry about whether Coach Nadal was close to defining anything.

We were just happy to have his coaching - apply his teaching - and hit the **** out the ball.

What do you think I mean?

quote:

Also, it sounds like you feel that kids don't use anything but their hands and arms.

Perhaps, you should explain what you mean by this?.......You are adding words to what I said.....

Bluedog,

I dont think I ever saw you on the field in 1976 - at any of the venues where the team played that spring and summer. Or 1975 for that matter.
So your 99.9% thing is nonsense.

Being polite young chaps though - we sure as heck would have invited you over to North Rockland for a little "dust-up".
After the game - you would have been better able to reevaluate - and redefine.

LOL

But, the single most determining factor is the players willingness to use trial and error. Try this. Try that. Rule this in. Rule this out. Practice, fail, pick yourself up, practice, get a hit, fail, fail, fail, pick yourself up, t work, soft toss, bp, bp, bp, trial and error over and over and over.

Linear...based on what is written in their books; that is exactly how it happened. Bull sessions with other players.

I shot worse golf round of 10 years Sunday....had club outside at top all day and could not stop it

Stopped a friend, went to range and in five swings, being my eyes from behind, he fixed it where I could not see it as I swung. I knew from watching ball what I was doing but I could not fix it without some help

Slump to repair and do it again. Failure and success cycles and what you file away in your mind. Coaching is similar too

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
If it is being pulled by the lead arm in such a way that does not move the hands......then the arm isn't doing the pulling. Very simple.

I bet the shoulder is doing the work. And, I bet the shoulder is being turned by the center.

The shoulder can not be doing the work in the high level swing. This is the point. The torso needs to be loading/twisting with a final quick twist that reverses efficiently. This twist cannnot be interrupted as it works up to drive a well connected shoulder link.At the same time the arm action (which is not the same as scap action/where back scap needs to continue load/pinch - clips of Aaron from back are good at seeing this ongoing scap pinch while lots of uncoking is happening) is creating the last quick stretch and controlling the timing with finer control by working the arms out of plane/making plane transition.

This is not the way an engineer would typically design a repeating swing,but it is a more accurate description of what high level players are actually/in reality doing.

This is an important thing LAu tries to get across by talking about pulling the knob with the arm NOT the shoulders. Shoulder link has to wait for trunk to untwist.Mankin makes same point.

quote:

Originally said by PGStaff:
A couple questions... Not meant to create an argument, but it probably will.

Well, you hit that nail squarely on the head, didn't you!

Itsinthegame, you don't want a "dustup" with me......That's something you want no part of......

And, you saying something someone else says is nonsense is like Ted Kennedy questioning a Supreme Court nominee on their morals......

BB,

I'm really not trying to get between you and Bluedog or nothing but that was hilarious-LOL

The site you posted that is>
Shep

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Bluedog's watering hole


Is the chow any good at this place.

I think Blue Dog is up for an avatar change. If I had a place named after me I'd use it.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Itsinthegame, you don't want a "dustup" with me......That's something you want no part of......

And, you saying something someone else says is nonsense is like Ted Kennedy questioning a Supreme Court nominee on their morals......

Bluedog,

LOL

Blah,blah,blah.

Talk baseball. If you are able. So far, you have proven you cant.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Bluedog's watering hole


Is the chow any good at this place.

I think Blue Dog is up for an avatar change. If I had a place named after me I'd use it.

I am a little slow at times, and just realized that you do and you do.

But I did......and it doesn't work anymore.

Linear,

That last post is like an algebraic equation.

A quadratic algebraic equation at that-LOL

No pun just fun,
Shep

My wife told me:

People who can't do...teach;
People who can't teach...ump;
People who can't ump...become TV analysts;
People who can't become TV analysts...sit on the sofa, watch TV and critique all the above.

I'm ashamed to tell you where I fit...now, where's my remote?

I think that the reason why most ML players have simular mechanics is some senses is because they have all have the experiance since playing the game forever, and they now have by trial and error, adjusted their mechanics to best work for them. And some basic mechanics work for nearly everyone...

One of the original 2 questions in this thread had to do with vision. Just as in most threads regarding hitting, no matter what the question, it gets off track and the same arguments are brought up about swing mechanics.

Back to vision…. Not just the 20-20 type but tracking and other important things pertaining to vision. There have been several discussions about the head and eyes. I’ve heard everything from keeping still and tracking, to the head should move, to everything in between. I’ve heard vision is important and vision is not important.

Anyway, I checked the site that someone recommended in a different thread. I’ve seen these before on youth coaching site. If you look at all the clips of ML hitters you will see some with forward and downward head/eye movement. You will see Bagwell who actually finishes with his eyes farther back than where they started. Magwire and Bonds who move very little (if any) forward. But the one thing fairly consistent in all the clips is the start position and the position at contact of the head! Would this consistency among great hitters mean anything? Do all great hitters turn their head slightly backwards while everything else is going forward? Or do great hitters move their head and eyes the direction of their swing?

For years I’ve been teaching hitters to track. Has new found evidence proved this to be unimportant? And yes, I understand the half way to the plate theory as far as decision making goes. But reacting to that exact millisecond that the ball is exactly half way (less than 30 feet) on a 95 mph fastball is not something that can be taught… is it? So wouldn’t it require at least an attempt to track the ball a longer distance than half way? Or as long as possible?

My answer is two-fold. Hitting a baseball does have a base genetic pre-dispostion. Certainly, some have the "knack" from the get-go while others can practice "til the cows come home" and work with the most talented coaches, but will never excel!

The second key element is practice. Almost every very gifted hitter, upon investigation, seems to have had access to a batting cage or seized upon every opportunity to take swings AND OR had an involved father/dad(recent ex: Piazza, McCann, Wright, Uptons). Again I will refer to the findings in the book "Outliers" that I suggest every parent read, as further evidence that practice (10,000 repetions bench mark)in any successful endeavor (Bill Gates-computers, Paul McCartney-music, exceptional athletes in any sport, etc.), played a huge part.

I don't mean to diminish the impact of great coaching, by the above, certainly as you rise it assists the athlete to be the best he can be. I don't think you can question the importance of vision to hitting; the aspects of recognition and perception are crucial (ask McCann with his recent problems).

I believe that athletes are born with skills that can not be taught. A quick smooth swing and the ability to track a ball or read a pitch. A good coach can get the best out of an individual, but the talent has got to be there, it can't be taught.

Teaching a player to deal with failure and preparing a player for the challanges that he has yet to face are the qualities that I look for in good coaching and good trainers.

But I am a believer that the best hitters are born not made, the ones that work and develop those skills through constant practice and training become the great hitters we love to watch.

My kid one of those...great hitter.

What I have done is spent the years avoiding the hitting guru's. Don't fix what not broke.

In a building full of 15 year old hitters, he gets in the cage and everyone comes to watch because of the sound. Every coach, every where he's been, has tried to change him, he just nods and says OK.

In my opinion the good MLB hitters are the best today at avoiding the hitting instructors. *ie Holliday - Mcguire. attempted change of high leg kick*


Mike Epstein in my opinion is the best, he recognizes and promotes a natural swing, and leaves you alone more than any others, he's not one the many, my way or the Hi way... gurus.

The Myth of Hitting Coaches

"Hitters are BORN with the natural swing; coaches take it away."

http://www.mikeepsteinhitting....534_param_detail=183

Teams or statisticians would want the eye test scores in order to look for a commonality among the better hitters. If a common score is found for the better hitters, teams will use that as part of their search criteria when signing prospects or draft choices.

The better hitters are the naturals. They have hand eye coordination that cannot truly be taught.

The best batting instructors will take the existing mechanics that obviously work and at best fine tune them to catch up with faster pitching at the higher levels.

The hitting guru will be able to teach the batter how to read the spin on the ball when it leaves the pitcher's hand. This is a process that requires many repetitions to see the spin, recognize that spin and adjust the swing for that pitch.

It was much easier to learn these things when repetitions were free as kids were able to just go out and play ball.

quote:

The Myth of Hitting Coaches

Showme ... good article, thanks for posting! My son, always one of the best on his teams, flourished after years of work with an "Epstein like" Pro Coach, and relearning his "natural swing."

So many old wives tales here.

Hitting is technique, period.

You, too, can be a "natural" hitter.

From my hitting instructions hahaha jk!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
A couple questions… Not meant to create an argument, but it probably will.

1 – What is the major reason MLB Scouting Departments test vision?

2 – Where did all these Major League hitters learn how to hit? I understand the value in studying the video of MLB stars to figure out what they do. I understand the value in finding those things that nearly all of them do the same way. Now, if all the coaching is so bad, where did these ML hitters pick it up… Who taught them? Or do they all do these things naturally in spite of all the bad coaching.

It just seems confusing that we study Major League hitters to learn more about what they have in common, maybe we should find out how they learned it. After all, we can be fairly certain that they all didn’t have the same coaches. There has been many great hitters… Does that mean there have been many great hitting coaches.

I would be interested in hearing opinions… I have my own opinion, but it has more to do with the ability to learn than the ability to teach.

I saw this post updated and started reading it as though it was a current thread! I marveled at how those oldtimers had come out of the woodwork to hypothesize the science of hitting! I was on the third page before I realized it was a thread from 2006! LOL! It was an oldie but a goodie though!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
2 – Where did all these Major League hitters learn how to hit? I understand the value in studying the video of MLB stars to figure out what they do. I understand the value in finding those things that nearly all of them do the same way. Now, if all the coaching is so bad, where did these ML hitters pick it up… Who taught them? Or do they all do these things naturally in spite of all the bad coaching.

Based on many years coaching youth baseball/fastpitch, here is your answer:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
My kid one of those...great hitter.

What I have done is spent the years avoiding the hitting guru's. Don't fix what not broke.

In my opinion the good MLB hitters are the best today at avoiding the hitting instructors. *ie Holliday - Mcguire. attempted change of high leg kick*

These kids are the #4 hitters from T-Ball up and nobody instructs them. Everyone says they are "natural hitters".

Where he goes off course is here:

quote:

Mike Epstein in my opinion is the best, he recognizes and promotes a natural swing, and leaves you alone more than any others, he's not one the many, my way or the Hi way... gurus.

The problem with this, of course, is that the "natural swing" is simply the correct technique.

If coaches would only instruct correct technique instead of wives tales about hands to the ball, knob to the ball, squish the bug, the other 95% of players would learn how to swing properly.

Sluggers are born with great hand-eye coordination, a fluid swing, and competitive by nature.

Their swing looks so easy and quick, yet it's powerful.

Over time, they learn adjustment, anticipation, consistency, and discipline. Most sluggers force a pitcher to throw a fast ball in the zone (hitter's count). They also make pitchers pay for mistakes. Learning all this takes time and hard work.

Just my opinion...........you know what they say about opinions.

Are you or your child being taught to swing like this guy? Or are you being taught to drag the hands across the chest before bringing the bat forward?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Ha4c&feature=related