2 Questions about Hitting

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1 – What is the major reason MLB Scouting Departments test vision?

I think I could it better if I could see, so can they. I know I could find my own golf ball

2 – Where did all these Major League hitters learn how to hit? I understand the value in

I think it is still a process for them too. They learn from all the places where they have played. Everybody looks for an edge still I believe.

I played golf today and hit it real bad. I stopped a friend and he went to the range with me.

I knew I was outside the line at the top but couldn't fix it. He watched me hit three balls and closed my front shoulder down and raised my lead arm and narrowed my stance. Got inside out & Concentrated on " ball on a rope" let the barrel work cues and .....boom.

Instantly a ball that was feeling as heavy a bowling ball started flying 285 effortlessly.

...anybodies mechanics can get off.....its a process...they have good years and not so good years

But where did they learn those mechanics that we study and use for teaching?

Did they all learn from the same person? Or is it possible there are many excellent hitting instructors? If there are many great hitting coaches who are helping these ML hitters that we study... so that we can know more about hitting... Why do we disregard what these same hitting coaches teach?

Or could it be that proper hitting mechanics also include a lot of natural ability? It has to be one or the other because I doubt these hitters got that way by reading the websites.

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Or could it be that proper hitting mechanics also include a lot of natural ability?

Friend that wins AL amateur golf hasn't a clue what he does. Played for Auburn too. He practices a lot but is not really a student of the game in our sense.

I know I have benefited greating at these sites. I would have never been well versed without them . I think I have helped many kids because of others shifting what I thought was right and rethinking and testing. For many of us it is the best resource.

I have attended many clinics but often the talks are 15 minute , grip, stance, stride, swing, follow through, ....very superficial. I would not have seen whats happening at all.

OTOH...I have meet some coaches at ABCA that captivated me with their relavent knowledge. I know they are out there and plenty of them

swingbuster,

I admit... don't think I'll ever completely figure it out, but it's fun to hear what others have to say. I'm kind of old, but can still remember the many things we were taught wrong as a kid. Even seen things change that were once considered the gospel in baseball. Was always bothered by people who would not change their minds despite proven improvements in everything from training to mechanics.

I commend you and others in your search for information. The only thing I'm fairlysure of is whatever is correct now will be improved in the future. It's because there are people like those involved here who keep thinking.

I hope everyone here realizes that what appears perfection now will be improved in the future. So long as there are people who will never accept complete satisfaction in knowledge.

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The only thing I'm fairly sure of is whatever is correct now will be improved in the future.

No doubt...applying the messages will always be function of how one interprets it.

I think there is a better understanding of the WHOLE swing process and it is shared to more people through modern technology.

People might follow Mankin, Epstein, NY-man, Guerry or other's teaching models but in years past( my youth) ; they seemed to operationalize the whole swing off of single cues ...hit down, roll those writs etc and many were wrong and stunted kids development.

The reason all of us come here is to avoid repeating that same mistake.

I am totally results driven...when I use something and see the ball flight( power and direction of power) I am impressed. That is why I gravitate to Guerry at time..results

Saying that vision is critical to hitting is stating the obvious. There was a case in 1984 when the White Sox selected an outfielder from Washington with the second of two first-round picks they had (23rd overall, I think). Gave him $100,000 or so, big money then. Was out of baseball withing a year and a half because he could not hit and had trouble picking up balls in the outfield. The reason - a pretty severe depth perception problem with his eyesight. I watched him take BP in Spring 1985. He couldn't tell how far away the ball was. Tough to hit and play centerfield with that problem.

Hitting has evolved and will continue to do so. Once upon a time it was taught to step in the direction that the ball was pitched to hit it that way. Not too long ago, linear concepts were state-of-the-art. Now, rotational hitting is the standard.

Coaches utilizing digital technology clearly see things that were nearly invisible to the eye only a few years go. Hitters will continue to improve as coaches continue redefining and perfecting the art of hitting.

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Originally posted by swingbuster:
...That is why I gravitate to Guerry at time..results

Really....funny how he won't post any clips of his results. Englishbey destroyed him on eteamz. gJohnson destroyed him on Shawn's site. Of course, ***** destroys him at ******.

Where are the results? Clips please.

Linear

Is that the question many ask you?

Where are the results?

Same BS all the time-- you answer questions with questions-- Change your ID to the Spin Doctor--it will work better

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Spin Doctor

Spinning hitters and cryptic instructions.

PGStaff,

Great questions. Let me throw my two cents in.

1) Eyesight - If I were an MLB team - paying an athlete - I would want to make sure the athlete had the best vision possible. I have no idea why an MLB team would want a player in the game with vision that was not optimal.
I would also be interested in all aspects of the athlete's vision - including but not limited to peripheral vision. (I know this doesnt answer your question - hopefully someone will provide a more specific answer).

2) I think alot of it has to do with great coaching. But natural athletic ability is still the key for me. You cannot teach speed - strength - agility - hand/eye coordination, etc... You can improve those attributes with hard work - but you cannot supply it and you cannot teach it.

I also believe that the more gifted you are athletically - the easier it is to make the adjustments necessary as you move up in the game and/or as you get older.

JMHO.

Its

I totally agree with point one

Point two--in my mind if the player has the talent and tools but good coaching and hard work will purely define and refine his ability

It was something bbscout brought up that got me to thinking. I agree there are some bad coaches at every level including professional. bbscout said he looks for those things that 90% of the time MLB hitters do the same. (or something like that) Linear, Bluedog, swingbuster, and many others including myself utilize video to answer questions.

Then there have been discussions regarding credentials and questions asked about proven results and naming successful hitters who have been taught by those who have expressed strong opinions. (not sure opinion is the right word here)

Guess my point is… If we can watch video of the so called great swings of MLB hitters and use them as ammunition in debating right or wrong technique… Why not simply find out how they developed this technique we all seem to agree on.

Common sense tells us they didn’t all have the same teacher. So could we accurately assume there are many great teachers out there some where. Perhaps we are studying what these great instructors/coaches already know?

Yet when all the arguments start, they always involve people who study these hitters and use them as examples on behalf of their theory. If someone didn’t teach/coach these hitters then it means it’s all about natural ability (highly unlikely). If someone did teach/coach them… Then we could simply claim those people are the true experts on hitting. After all, they must have the knowledge, the ability to teach it, the experience and the credentials/results.

So is anyone really inventing anything or are we simply trying to figure out something that many people already know? And if so... why not just pick the brain of the experts, you know... the old fashion way of learning.

Its.. made another great point. One thing that I find is a measure of a true athlete is the ability to make adjustments. Body awareness is such an important part of learning mechanics. I also believe that vision is a very important and under-exercised aspect. Many schools are doing quite a bit of vision training. I also, and will probably hear from some on this, feel that some hitters have amazing hand eye coordination and the ability to hit the ball well with poor mechanics because they have a great approach to hitting at the plate. Others may have great mechanics and poor hand-eye coordination and vision or a poor approach to hitting. It is the player that can refine and excell in all these areas that we look at and say "That's how it is done!" I am sure that all of the best hitters that we see have all of the above traits and continue to develop them throughout there careers.

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So is anyone really inventing anything or are we simply trying to figure out something that many people already know?

Change last word from "know" to "do".

As far as MLB players and film we can see what they do. We do not know what they "know".

Their books so far have come short of describing it.

swingbuster,

Perhaps I wasn't perfectly clear. The players do... what the teacher knows! Who taught the players how to do? No one?

Is it possible these people who know... can't write books?

PG

or better yet they dont want to

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
...If someone didn’t teach/coach these hitters then it means it’s all about natural ability (highly unlikely)...

Invalid conclusion. IMHO.

Most mlb hitters can not point to a person who taught them. They can point to people who coached them over their lives. Each person helped a little, I suppose. Tid bit here. Tid bit there.

But, the single most determining factor is the players willingness to use trial and error. Try this. Try that. Rule this in. Rule this out. Practice, fail, pick yourself up, practice, get a hit, fail, fail, fail, pick yourself up, t work, soft toss, bp, bp, bp, trial and error over and over and over. Some will have a goal big enough to persist. Some will not.

Some are lucky, in that, for whatever reason, the first time they picked up a bat they were much closer to a mlb swing than the next guy. Why? Who knows. Emulation probably. Maybe just pure luck. But the benefit of that is earlier success, therefore, earlier confidence, therefore, more success, therefore more confidence etc. The guy who didn't swing it as well the first time had less success, less confidence, more failure, less confidence and eventually....quit.

To confuse the issue, those aren't the only two categories. Throw in the "athlete" who's technique sucked but still hit because of his athleticism. He had success to a certain point, then fails, and cannot recover because his mechancis are engrained. He hits the wall.

All good coaches try to do is reduce the trial and error period. I already know the arms are not used in the swing. Do you know how long it could take a hitter to figure that out? Especially with the well meaning but less informed coaches standing in the way?

The long and short of it is most mlb players found their swing from the "luck" of the trial and error process.

Analyzing and teaching are two different animals. Analysis is much easier than teaching. Just listen to one of these mlb hitting coaches, or for that matter, one of the mlb players, describe their swing. Then compare the video of their swing to what they say. Wow. You would be amazed at how their words don't match their actions.

One thing is for sure. They use their center different than the rest. And, they may not know it. Probably don't know it. They know what and how to do do it, but studying video of this part of the swing, how they use their center, will be inconclusive to those without the proper education. And, since they do something different "underneath" than anyone else, and they don't know it, but assume everyone else is using their center the same, when in reality they aren't, then nothing else they say applies to the other player. Until all use their center properly, the rest doesn't matter.

Linear,

Good discription, but is it possible your assuming a bit more than you know for absolutely sure. Do you really think the hitting coaches are insignificant and that no one listens to them? I do agree with your trial and error theory, that's for sure.

I listened to Lee Elia work with hitters and he used very simple terms that (for example) describing how to handle the inside pitch. His students were among the best prospects in the country. A few who we will be studying their swing before long. This all took place when he was the hitting coach for Seattle. ARod, Griffey, Edgar were on that team at the time. I thought the lessons he was providing was fairly new stuff (to me anyway) and the hitters were picking it up pretty quickly.

Also at the same time I watched Billy Connors work with top level pitchers. The terms he used were even simpler. He is the master of minor adjustments. Granted I doubt if either of these two knows anything about physics, but they know hitting and pitching inside out. And both command respect even from superstars, so they are able to get through to people.

What I have discovered is many of the very best, well known within MLB baseball, instructors and coaches... Do NOT write books, do lessons, or make instructional videos. Maybe you would actually agree with some of what those guys teach.