2-seam fastball

Even though a 4 seamer can be thrown a bit harder the relative lack of movement makes it generally more hittable than a 2 seamer. The 2 seamer is usually the primary fastball thrown and then the 4 seamer becomes effective because it is a bit of a change in speed. The slider and 12-6 provide change in speed and movement from either the 4 seamer or the 2 seamer just as well. Interestingly, a tight slider has a spin more similar to a 2 seamer than a 4 seamer and can be more difficult to pick up after a 2 seamer.

A better way to ask your question might be, Is the 4 seamer at only a couple mph faster than a 2 seamer worth throwing?

CADad - Yes, they both have different speeds and movements. The 4 seamer is meant to be thrown high, while the 2 seamer is thrown low.

Ah Ha, The old 2-seam fastball myth. The two and four seam fastballs "today" are the same speed, because all pitches are clocked out of the hand. Years ago when most every scout used the Decatur Ray Gun, it got the pitches as they crossed the plate, and the good sinker (2-seam) would be 2-3 mph slower than a 4-seam. The other thing that used to happen was that a high fastball would get a slower reading than a low fastball.........why? Well, the fastball down in the zone would be blocked out by the Ump and the catcher, and the last time the gun would see the ball was about halfway to the plate. The gun would see the high fastball all the way into the catchers glove.

Now, as far as a fastball sinking........a 2-seamer will sink, only if you release the ball with your hand and wrist rotating right to left. You have to create the spin on the ball, as it wont just sink because you grip it with the 2-seams. A sinker is just the same as a screwball, only it does not break quite as much as a screwball, and the 2-seam grip makes it easier to throw and release the pitch.

CADad,

O.K. but.....the 4-seam is the only pitch that "hops" or moves up in the strike zone. I realize this is only for those pitchers that can pitch above 95 mph -("the equilibrium speed of a baseball free falling", according to The Physics of Baseball, by Adair). All the other pitches move downward, i.e. curve, slider, change-up, 2-seam. Of course, for most everybody the 4-seam moves downward too, but, less downward than a 2-seam. Just talking here..... Do you follow my logic. The reason for my asking this, is that although my kids find it alot of fun learning all the pitches, the actual pitching/batter set-up needs to be taught. So, you can see where I am going with this......

For a righty at the plate, a crisply delivered two-seamer is a bat-shatterer (wood of course). Great pitch and not difficult to learn (but more difficult to 'master').

I don't know about Smokey Joe Wood, but Palmer did not throw sinkers, and Lee was a junk baller. 4-seam fastballs don't hop either. If we are to teach our kids the various fastballs and grips, we should do it the right way, and not with old wives tales. I have seen hundreds of young pitchers throw 2-seam fastballs that are straight as strings. To make a ball move, you have to do it, as it won't happen just because you grip it with the seams.

Yeh, your probably right about Smoltz and Koufax's fastballs (they don't rise do they). Of course, your right and everyone else is wrong. Also, the tape I have of the Spaceman explaining his 2-seamer, well, I can't explain that either.

Savannah,



My understanding is that a ball thrown at 90 mph, with perfect backspin, will rise 5 inches because of the lift developed. Like an airplane wing. I know that studies have shown this. The real question is can a pitcher throw a ball with perfect backspin? "The Head Game", by Roger Kahn is where I got my information.

The following is a quote from that book. "Adair calculates that a fb gripped across the stitches and thrown at 90+ mph hops about 5 inches in the last 15 feet of flight. The high hard one is not only hard, it hops almost half a foot. How can a baseball move upward against gravity? Another question suggests the answer to that one. How can an airplane fly? The fb leaves a pitchers hand with very strong backspin, and the backspin imparted to the stitches creats lift. Broadly speaking, the stitches are the fb's wings. Further models show that sinkers truly sink and split finger fb's drop abruptly."

Some of those quoting Adair need to look at Figure 3-3 in his book and read more carefully.

The ball is on a downward arc all the way to the plate. The four seam just has less downward arc. It does not rise relative to the ground.

And from p. 38 "If the baseball fast ball falls nearly 3 feet on its way from pitcher to plate, how can thoughtful, intelligent players possibly believe it might rise? Here we have a matter of perception. ... Part of the reason for the misunderstanding among players about the "rising fast ball" stems from the foreshortened view of the ball trajectory from the pitcher's mound, the catcher's box, and the batter's box. If the player were to watch the fast ball from the on-deck circle, he would see it fall a lot (about 1 foot in 8) as it crosses the batter at the waist. The falling trajectory of the fast ball can also be seen occasionally on TV when the cameraman chooses to show the ball crossing the plate as seen by a camera at right angles to the line from pitcher to plate."

The four seam does not rise relative to the ground. It just drops less.

A properly thrown two seam will tail inside (as thrown by a RHP to a RH batter).

Not all pitchers get good movement on pitches, as BBScout mentions. And some that do get good movement don't really know how they accomplish that. Probably has something to do with finger pressure. And often the threequarter arm slot seems to provide more movement.

The two seam can be a great pitch. It is one grip. Several fastball grips should be used to be able to show different movement to the batter, thus aiding in deception and keeping them off balance.

To get more tail downward, take a two seam grip. Then rotate the ball back toward the palm until the fingers are in the middle of the bare leather. It looks like a two seam but is a little slower (and thus tails down more) because the fingertips don't engage the seams at release.

Texas, I agree. Of course it doesn't actually rise. However, if a batter gets used to a certain perception of a ball falling at a certain rate and then the 4 seam is thrown, it will drop less relative to the average fastball.(Provided the grip and backspin are correct.) That is why someone with a good 4 seam has a lot of people swing under the high 4 seam fb. The physics still apply. That is why the appearance of a hop.

A 2 seam fb that only tails in is not nearly as good as one that sinks and dives. A fb that tails only will be less effective against batters that one that does both. That is the problem with Lowe of Boston. When he gets sink and tail, he is untouchable. He gets hammered when it only tails. Too many balls that tail only will come back over the plate to righties when thrown out side and gets hit pretty hard.

A pitcher that can have both is very effective. Especially when the release point is the same.

I think that if a pitcher is just looking for tail on the fastball then a close to sidearm fastball with a 4 seam grip will give them the most tail. I'm guessing that Randy Johnson throws a few of these.

Texan has given a good explanation of the "rising fastball".

I don't believe a pitcher has to be able to throw 95 mph to throw an effective high fastball although it certainly helps. Jarrod Washburn tends to be a fly ball pitcher staying up in the zone and he maxes out at about 91 or 92. When he manages to change speeds on his fastball well he can be very effective up in the zone.

Some pitchers manage to get more spin on the ball whatever the grip even at lower speeds.

I also agree with bbscout. Just holding the ball along the seams will not result in significant movement, although the ball will tend to drop a bit more than a 4 seamer if thrown overhand. You can get some movement by having one finger on a seam and the other off a seam. However, the most effective moving fastball in baseball is probably Rivera's cutter and if you look at clips of his release it looks very close to a hard slider release.

Most younger pitchers (pre-HS) need to start with a 4 seamer and once they get command of that start to experiment with 2 seam grips to see what works for them.

Texan, Thank you for explaining about the 4-seam fastball.

Yes. No one disputes that from the mound to the catchers glove, the ball's overall trajectory will fall or arc down. The hop or rise is from the magnus effect creating the air flow pattern which makes the ball fall less at the end of the flight verse every other thrown ball. Adair addresses this. I am not sure why people have such a hard time with this, yet, they are willing to accept that a 12-6 curveball will arc down more once the magnus effect creates the flow pattern from it's top spin at the end of the flight.

In regards to the 95 mph figure. That is the speed at which a dropped ball, no matter how high, will not exceed. Thus it is possible, for the magnus effect to actually cause a rise against gravity. As long as the back spin and speed remain constant above 95 mph (taking into account 14.7 psi at 70 F).

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Originally posted by Savannah:
In regards to the 95 mph figure. That is the speed at which a dropped ball, no matter how high, will not exceed. Thus it is possible, for the magnus effect to actually cause a rise against gravity. As long as the back spin and speed remain constant above 95 mph (taking into account 14.7 psi at 70 F).

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Of course, a 95mph fastball or a fastball at whatever speed does not maintain the velocity on its way to home plate.......it starts slowing down.Illusion of a rise or hop?...maybe, but by the time it reaches home plate it is not rising or hopping, it is going down.

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Originally posted by Savannah:
Yes. No one disputes that from the mound to the catchers glove, the ball's overall trajectory will fall or arc down. The hop or rise is from the magnus effect creating the air flow pattern which makes the ball fall less at the end of the flight verse every other thrown ball. Adair addresses this. I am not sure why people have such a hard time with this, yet, they are willing to accept that a 12-6 curveball will arc down more once the magnus effect creates the flow pattern from it's top spin at the end of the flight.

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So what is the problem here? I don't understand.

Savannah,
When a baseball is dropping at 95 mph it reaches it's terminal velocity where the drag on the ball cancels out the acceleration due to gravity.

When a pitcher throws a pitch at 95 mph the drag is acting opposite to the path of the ball while the gravity is acting down. The force acting upward is the differential pressure due to the spin on the ball. Two different things. The ball does not rise because it is going 95 mph. The ball could potentially rise if it was spinning fast enough but no pitcher can put that much spin on the ball. Two effects happen as a pitcher throws the ball faster. 1. The ball has less time to drop. 2. The harder the ball is thrown, the more drag there is so that the differential pressure due to a given amount of spin is greater. However, there is nothing magical about 95 mph other than the drag curve starting to level out so that it gets harder and harder to throw the ball faster than 95 mph.

bbscout,
That's the first time I've ever heard that the speed difference between a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball might be a product of the measurement rather than an actual speed difference.

It would be interesting to see a large set of pitchers throwing 2 seam and 4 seam fastballs and measuring the speeds of the pitches. Sounds like a good 8th grade science project for my son.

What is the speed threshold where the ball develops the thin boundary layer of turbulance that actually reduces drag?

Whatever that threshold is, I'd think that once crossed, a ball would tend to loose less velocity over the 60' to home plate than a pitch thrown under that thresold, i.e., once a player can throw hard enough to get over that threshold, his fastball would seems to carry more 'pop' to home plate as it decelerates less due to drag.