I'm out in the NW suburbs.
Anyone know about Judson University and its baseball program? From what I have read, it seems like a good school, and there baseball web site looks great.
I had a nice sit down with their coach a few weeks ago. He is a very stand up man who knows his baseball. They had be down prior to coach Benjamin arriving, but he seems to have the program going in the right direction. I believe they won their conference tourney last year.
My wife is currently back in school at Judson and has nothing but good things to say about their academics. Although she had quite a culture shock since she did her undergrad at U of I.
My wife is currently back in school at Judson and has nothing but good things to say about their academics. Although she had quite a culture shock since she did her undergrad at U of I.
I may be off target on this one (What else is new?). I previously stated that a minimum of 10 FVC 2009 recruits would get D1 deals. From what I am hearing now, many of the players that I pegged as D1 may go the juco route.
RRF8, Huh?, There are a number of reasons that players choose the JUCO route, the least of which is that they would choose a JUCO opportunity over a D1 scholarship. Word to the wise, there is no predictability in recruiting, particularly with position players
Playball2, Did I ever say that it was a good thing or a bad thing to go juco? Everyone has their own needs and goals. For some, juco may be far and away the best option.
Earlier in this thread, I just made a prediction just to keep the conversation rolling. Now, I am admitting I may have been off with my prediction. I realize that it is just a guessing game and no one is judging anyone here.
Earlier in this thread, I just made a prediction just to keep the conversation rolling. Now, I am admitting I may have been off with my prediction. I realize that it is just a guessing game and no one is judging anyone here.
RRF8, not only did you not say it neither did I, get off the defensive, my point is there is no predictability in the recruiting game. No judgement here, it is just not credible to make that kind of a prediction.
Don't mean to be defensive, but when someone starts off their reply with "huh?", it implies that you said something stupid.
My earlier prediction was based on my conversations with individuals in the conference and what schools they were talking to. As you mentioned, plans and opportunities can change. So, when I am wrong about something I said previously, I don't mind admitting it.
We all know that this is not an exact science, but some of us enjoy talking about the opportunities that the kids are getting from our conference. We're proud of the talent in the FVC.
My earlier prediction was based on my conversations with individuals in the conference and what schools they were talking to. As you mentioned, plans and opportunities can change. So, when I am wrong about something I said previously, I don't mind admitting it.
We all know that this is not an exact science, but some of us enjoy talking about the opportunities that the kids are getting from our conference. We're proud of the talent in the FVC.
RRF8, Be as proud as you need to be, I too am proud of the players in the neighboring area, but the distance between a Division 1 player and a juco (athletically only, not circumstantial) are substantial.
It can be Playball2 but I know of certain players that would have D1 offers but will be attending jucos instead.
that's the misconception that alot of people that don't truely understand baseball have. Parents and kids, juco baseball is alot of the time better than D1 baseball. You have very talented kids at alot of these programs that didn't have the grades or wanted to get drafted after freshman year and not wait until junior year. Some of the best D1's in the country take a ton of their recreuts off of juco rosters. Just because the education might be sub par compared to D1 schools doesn't mean the baseball is. I think you should do more research on that subject. There's also a ton of kids that went D1 and realized it isnt' what was promised or they aren't playing as much as they figured so they go back home to play juco ball and hope to then transfer to another school with a better fit. Aren't you a HS coach that has been coaching for years? you should understand how that works and not dicard a kid because he's going to juco and assume he's subpar.
This really smells of elitism.
If Yavapai College, South Mt College, San Jacinto, Walters State (JUCOs) came to our state they would probably give every IL D-1 a run for their money. Say what you want, but what D-1 did Curt Shilling attend? Andy Petite? Where did Roger Clemons start out after high school?
If a kid had an offer from any of the above JUCOs, and there are many other schools I haven't mentioned, it is in no way "less." Somehow I doubt that every IL high school baseball player has the ability to get into Northwestern, or even IL State. That doesn't make them stupid either. Next time you get your car fixed, tell your mechanic his education is "lesser" than someone who has a BS degree. God didn't create all arms & brains equal.
As far as the baseball goes, I don't see D-1's playing Fall schedules versus other teams either.
JUCOs do. You get better by playing, not by sitting on the bench at a D-1 throwing/hitting batting practice for two years........
JMHO
If Yavapai College, South Mt College, San Jacinto, Walters State (JUCOs) came to our state they would probably give every IL D-1 a run for their money. Say what you want, but what D-1 did Curt Shilling attend? Andy Petite? Where did Roger Clemons start out after high school?
If a kid had an offer from any of the above JUCOs, and there are many other schools I haven't mentioned, it is in no way "less." Somehow I doubt that every IL high school baseball player has the ability to get into Northwestern, or even IL State. That doesn't make them stupid either. Next time you get your car fixed, tell your mechanic his education is "lesser" than someone who has a BS degree. God didn't create all arms & brains equal.
As far as the baseball goes, I don't see D-1's playing Fall schedules versus other teams either.
JUCOs do. You get better by playing, not by sitting on the bench at a D-1 throwing/hitting batting practice for two years........
JMHO
quote:Parents and kids, juco baseball is alot of the time better than D1 baseball.
Nails read my post again, I understand the circumstances as to why kids go to a JUCO, I played at a JUCO and then to DI, talent level is incomparable, no kid was ever discarded by my post. I currently have a player at one of the JUCO's (Top 25 in the country)in Arizona, I am aware of the processes and reminding me who I am doesn't change my opinion. NC42, I know your son signed professionly, but of all the junior college opportunities he choose Michigan State. Elitism, no, reality.
quote:It can be Playball2 but I know of certain players that would have D1 offers but will be attending jucos instead.
Really? are you sure they qualified for those offers?
I heard there's a Michigan State kid transferring to a juco this year. I really don't know how you can say a D1 player is far and above a juco player. That's just false. Some D1's make conservative judgements also because they know the kid will be there all 4 years, they might take a lesser talented kid because they know he will pass his classes, attend class regularily, be a nice kid at practice, etc. But not as talented as another juco kid, how many kids start out in juco only to go D1...............I know D2 and D3 kids that are better than D1 kids, too many people, parents, kids are hung up on D1. It isn't the be all end all and I'd say a place like St. Joe's is better than alot of the state D1 programs right now.
"Elitism = The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources."
Kyle chose MSU because of the pitching coach, who I might add, is in the professional ranks now. If this coach had been coaching at a JUCO versus MSU, he probably would have went there instead. We do not care what other people think.
Kyle chose MSU because of the pitching coach, who I might add, is in the professional ranks now. If this coach had been coaching at a JUCO versus MSU, he probably would have went there instead. We do not care what other people think.
Nails how do you assess that they are better?
Baseball wise, yes, they are qualified for those offers.
that stinks when you go to a certain school because of the coach, then he leaves. Happens too much, that's why everything should factor in when attending a school and looking for schools. In your situation, i am sure your fine though because MSU is a great school and in a good conference so even though the coach left I am sure he's still in fine shape. I know D1's that won't play juco's in the fall because they know they'll lose. I just think your misinformed with your observation.
NC42, I am not asking you to care what I or anybody else thinks, Nor did I say that those schools deserved favored treatment (by your definition) I spoke about the overall talent level. I am simply pointing out that your son was a top talent and signed to attend MSU, for what ever reason, Maybe some of the better coaches are at that level, like your sons potential pitching coach. This point is moot, never did I once downplay the role of a JUCO. I simply said as a whole the level of play (largely do to talent) is substantially distinguishable. Lastly, if you are going to use some of the countries top JUCO's I to compare apples to apples you need to stack them against the countries best D1 schools.
Watching how things seem to affect where a kid lands; IMO I think athleticism seems to be way below many other factors that differentiates a D1 from a Juco kid.
"And thats all I have to say about that."
"And thats all I have to say about that."
Exactly Tuzi, it has more to do with what I mentioned earlier. Anyway, we are in the Midwest, we aren't talking about the SEC and Texas schools. Illinois has some of the best juco's in the nation with a great deal of success on the field and getting kids to the next level. I'd say that the juco option in Illinois is not a bad option compared to alot of the Illinois schools. And I'd say alot of the top juco's in Illinois will compete with the top IL schools, D1, D2, or NAIA. And let's be honest 99% of the kids we are talking about will be attending an Illinois or Midwest school. Not many will be attending a top 15 program.
RRF8, baseball wise?
quote:IMO I think athleticism seems to be way below many other factors that differentiates a D1 from a Juco kid.
Tuzi, isn't athletic ability is the first thing kids are recruited on at any level. Coaches don't recruit because of their inability to compete at the level of play.
Nails, unpucker your lips and read the posts again.
Playball-
I just agree with Nails 100% on this on.
Many of those kids end up at JUCOs because they are 5-10, 170 lbs and not 6-2 200 lbs.
My JUCO point is simple, an offer from a top JUCO is nothing to be ashamed about. Me talking here & not implying anything, but I would never want to give the impression to any parent than my kid's "D-1" offer is somehow better just because it is a D-1. I am like Nails, I just don't believe that.
The reality is how many kids in IL have the chance to play at a top D-1? How many top D-1s are in the Midwest? I think your former pitcher who ended up in AZ was maybe one of the smartest out of the entire '07 bunch - good coaching, good weather, and he isn't paying $20,000 per year to throw batting practice. If my youngest would follow him there I would be as proud of him choosing that school as any D-1. But people always looks at you like you're stupid when you say that...that is why I say I don't care what other's think.
I just agree with Nails 100% on this on.
Many of those kids end up at JUCOs because they are 5-10, 170 lbs and not 6-2 200 lbs.
My JUCO point is simple, an offer from a top JUCO is nothing to be ashamed about. Me talking here & not implying anything, but I would never want to give the impression to any parent than my kid's "D-1" offer is somehow better just because it is a D-1. I am like Nails, I just don't believe that.
The reality is how many kids in IL have the chance to play at a top D-1? How many top D-1s are in the Midwest? I think your former pitcher who ended up in AZ was maybe one of the smartest out of the entire '07 bunch - good coaching, good weather, and he isn't paying $20,000 per year to throw batting practice. If my youngest would follow him there I would be as proud of him choosing that school as any D-1. But people always looks at you like you're stupid when you say that...that is why I say I don't care what other's think.
Side note, almost half of all the players selected in the first 5 rounds of the 2007 MLB draft were from Division I schools. No more than 5 of the 184 players selected were from a JUCO (the first at 106 3rd round I believe). Does MLB have it wrong too?
NC42 Read my post, MY comment was athleticly no circumstantial.
quote:Originally posted by Playball2:quote:IMO I think athleticism seems to be way below many other factors that differentiates a D1 from a Juco kid.
Tuzi, isn't athletic ability is the first thing kids are recruited on at any level. Coaches don't recruit because of their inability to compete at the level of play.
Nails, unpucker your lips and read the posts again.
Yes. But there seem to be many kids that are arguably as equally athletic but end up at a Juco for many other reasons. Let us not forget what you have stated that you need to sort of level the playing field when you compare how a D1 and Juco program would fair against each other. There are over 30 D1 baseball conferences and 350+ D1 baseball schools, and many of them would get smoked by a decent Juco. The level of D1 baseball is not equal thru-out the conferances likely do the differences in the athleticism of the kids in the conferances.
Isn't Juco the preferred option is some areas of the country? I don't know, just throwing it out there.
to compare juco's to the top 5 rounds or top D1's in the country isn't smart either. You don't see top 5 round picks from any school in Illinois. We are talking about Illinois and midwest juco's compared to D1's and other levels.
Playball2, baseball wise meant that based on their baseball skills they would be offered D1 deals, but, as has been mentioned many times here, there are other factors that determine if a player should be an NCAA D1 student athlete.
There were a few local players that were in the mlb draft but chose to play juco instead. If they were drafted, wouldn't you assume that some D1 school might have been interested also? Obviously, there were other factors that came into their decision to play juco.
There were a few local players that were in the mlb draft but chose to play juco instead. If they were drafted, wouldn't you assume that some D1 school might have been interested also? Obviously, there were other factors that came into their decision to play juco.
RRF8, I agree with you. If a player were drafted, one would assume there would be DIV I interest unless;
Can you say grades, class rank, ACT and/or SAT scores? DIV I schools cannot afford to take players with a high level of academic risk. It is just too costly, especially with the new scholarship rules.
Just one dad's opinion.
Can you say grades, class rank, ACT and/or SAT scores? DIV I schools cannot afford to take players with a high level of academic risk. It is just too costly, especially with the new scholarship rules.
Just one dad's opinion.
I agree with you guys but don't assume that just cause someone was drafted they are good. Sometimes kids get drafted simply because of genetics or because of one major tool they have like speed. Seen a bunch of people that got drafted that weren't very good HS or even college players they were just either big, left handed, or very fast. Too many people put labels on kids, like thinking a draft pick is better than a D1 player or a D1 player is better than a D2 player. Overall that's probably true but there's a ton of players that aren't at big time schools for whatever reason that are better than kids at D1's.
I can see a stronger feeder relationship between D1 schools and jucos. Sort of a quasi agreement between certain D1 schools and selected jucos. To some extent you see that already...e.g. San Jacinto JC is considered a feeder for Graham at Rice U. With the reduced rosters, academic concerns, etc., D1 coaches are going to be less willing to take a gamble on someone until they have proven themselves (baseball wise and/or academically and/or maturity) at a Juco.
Tuzi-
In reference to "Isn't Juco the preferred option in some areas of the country?" --- I can kind of speak to that.
AZ is a State with maybe 6 million people. There are only TWO NCAA division 1 schools (baseball)in the entire State, and if you are not a top National Prospect your odds are pretty slim of getting on either of those teams. There is ONE top notch Div 2 school in Phoenix. That is it.
JUCOs attract a lot of the top locals. I remember in the not so distant past that some of the top teams there had as many as 10 drafted players on a a team. Maybe that doesn't mean much but it does mean something. One famous JUCO guy is Rich Harden, from Central AZ College. Yes I know, he is Canadian. Donnie Veal - top prospect in Cub's system is from Pima Community College. Dropped out of U of A after freshman year to go to Pima. Bobby Howry I believe is an Az JUCO guy too - forget where though.
In reference to "Isn't Juco the preferred option in some areas of the country?" --- I can kind of speak to that.
AZ is a State with maybe 6 million people. There are only TWO NCAA division 1 schools (baseball)in the entire State, and if you are not a top National Prospect your odds are pretty slim of getting on either of those teams. There is ONE top notch Div 2 school in Phoenix. That is it.
JUCOs attract a lot of the top locals. I remember in the not so distant past that some of the top teams there had as many as 10 drafted players on a a team. Maybe that doesn't mean much but it does mean something. One famous JUCO guy is Rich Harden, from Central AZ College. Yes I know, he is Canadian. Donnie Veal - top prospect in Cub's system is from Pima Community College. Dropped out of U of A after freshman year to go to Pima. Bobby Howry I believe is an Az JUCO guy too - forget where though.
You were rolling until you brought up Howry.
there's a ton of juco guys, Mark Buerle, Albert Puhols, Russel Martin, etc etc. AZ is a hotbed for some talented juco players, i still think Illinois is one of the better states in the country in terms of juco's.
quote:to compare juco's to the top 5 rounds or top D1's in the country isn't smart either. You don't see top 5 round picks from any school in Illinois. We are talking about Illinois and midwest juco's compared to D1's and other levels.
Nails, read the posts, you were the only one talking about Illinois JUCO's, nobody else, not even RRF8 mentioned which JUCO's, The original quote referenced athleticism (The MLB draft baseball has demonstrated repeatedly where the talent pool is, JUCO is a distant 3rd next to HS and DIV 1, I choose the first 5 rounds as a sample because I am not doing 50). You will need to do more than jump to conclusions about other peoples posts.
RRF8 huh? so let me get this straight, outside of circumstances the likelihood of your leagues top talent would have chosen Division one schools? Or are these kids choosing JUCO's over Division one options?
playball2, I believe that you are correct. Ciricumstances are the reason that the kids that I am referring to are choosing jucos, otherwise D1 would be their first choice, would be my guess.
Heartland has signed Weaver from Leyden and Napolian from New Trier. Coach Metzger is getting a lot of top talent.
JUCO saves money and allows a kid to get two years of prerequisite classes while playing excellent baseball.
After two years, the kid may be done with baseball or will have developed and then transfer. If they do well in school there may be more academic and playing options after the two years than they had out of high school. There are a lot of sound reasons to go JUCO.
JUCO saves money and allows a kid to get two years of prerequisite classes while playing excellent baseball.
After two years, the kid may be done with baseball or will have developed and then transfer. If they do well in school there may be more academic and playing options after the two years than they had out of high school. There are a lot of sound reasons to go JUCO.
To all of those involved with the thread, this was never a discussion about the sound reasons for attending a JUCO, it was about the difference in talent levels athletically. I am not saying that the JUCO player is not a good player. I am aware that there are some very good players at that level. I am saying as a whole the difference between the two levels is substantial. Debate all you want but when you compare apples to apples it's not as close you have tended to believe.
Was Weaver committed to a previous school?
Was Weaver committed to a previous school?