5 years from now?

The Hall of Fame was started by the patriarch of the Clark family as a means of storing some of his baseball memorabilia and attracting tourists to upstate NY. Its a museum, not an entry way into eternal life. Frankly all this talk about future HOF considerations with this issue is so off base to me. Sorry if this wasn't the response you were looking for.

Any response is a good response. Curious what you mean by off base?

quote:

If they do what will the speechs' sound like?

I dunno, but wouldn't it be great if it sounded like crickets when they finished?

I don't think they are going to ban everybody who play in the roids era. In five years when everybody knew that the use of roids was so general, all those stars will be installed in the Hall.

There will be a definite reaction to this Steroids issue and at a minimum it will mean a "wait" for these fellows before getting inducted into the HOF.

It depends on Oprah.

If they come clean on Oprah, and she annoints them as reformed, we are basically a forgiving public.

If they pull a Roger and lie in the face of voters...I would doubt it. Even Rose eventually came clean.

Bonds and Clemens were putting up HOF numbers before juicing. The question how many voters hold them out for a few years for their transgressions. On the other hand, were McGwire and Palmiero HOF'er without juice.

I can picture Bonds' induction. Barry couldn't make it today. Here's a tape of his speech.

The Rocket needs to go on Oprah and Dr. Phil.

.

quote:

It depends on Oprah.

Do you mean Her Royal Highness... Vice President Oprah?

Stranger things have happened...

cadDAD

.

Del, maybe its too harsh of a baseball metaphor. The point I was implying is that too much emphasis has been placed on MLB player's reputations and rights and not enough focus on the threat to innocent young men of hs and college age due to this scurge.

I may have said the same thing as RJM in the past, but looking at the numbers I'm not sure Barry was putting up HOF numbers. So let's check. His results through 1997 were very good but starting to gradually drop off a bit. Then it looks like he got injured in 1998 and suddenly his production went way up through 2004 and then were higher than one would expect given the injuries (typical of steroid users) that he had. So let's assume a bit less of a recovery and then a gradual decline after 1998. Let's give him 25 home runs in 99, 40 in '00, 38 in '01, 30 in '02, 30 in '03, 25 in '04, 2 in '05, 15 in '06, and retirement. That's 420 home runs through '98 and 205 afterwards for a total of 605 home runs. Even considering there was probably more than steroids adding to the home run totals in and around the turn of the century those would still be HOF numbers.

So yes Barry posted HOF numbers and morals may be grounds for keeping him out of the HOF but performance isn't.

How about Roger?
He's a little bit harder to figure. McNamee allegedly didn't start supplying him with steroids until part way through the 1998 season and it isn't unusual for pitchers to have off years although Clemens had 4 in a row prior to '97. On the other hand the alleged conversations with Canseco imply that Clemens had been using prior to '98 so they could have made the difference going into '97. Let's give Clemens a good season in '97 and then 4 years with the same record as '93 through '96 prior to retirement.

Prior to '97 Clemens was 192-111. Let's give him a 18-10 record in '97 then repeat the '93-'96 years with an overall record of 40-39. That would give Clemens a career record of 250-160. A great record for sure but not necessarily HOF material. One could say that given all the hard work Clemens put in he would have done better and lasted longer than I've speculated but if steroids weren't in the picture would he have been able to work that hard without breaking down?

So my take is that if Bonds and Clemens were taking steroids and their career numbers are tainted then based on performance prior to taking them Bonds would almost certainly have still posted HOF numbers without steroids. Clemens would have probably posted great numbers but perhaps not first ballot HOF numbers with the swing probably being how he did in '97.

quote:

If everything remains status quo, and Bonds and Clemens don't play again, both will become eligible for entry into the Hall of Fame on the same year. Arguably, the greatest hitter and the greatest pitcher of the modern era and possibly all time.

Will they get voted in?

Voting shall be based upon the player's

record,

playing ability,

integrity,

sportsmanship,

character,

and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Integrity counts so cheaters should be sufficiently lacking in integrity to be voted in.

Quincy,
Agreed, but RJM was talking about the HOF numbers and so was I.

Bob Costas has the right idea---have a separate page with notations---for all the various eras---mostly day games---mostly night games--- no black players--- black players---the "greeneies" era--the steriod era ---etc


The records are the records and who knows who did what and when!

Uhhh...We don't know the details but we've got a pretty darn good idea. The real question is how far back to go because I can remember steroids being used in HS by football players back in the early 70s.

TR,
Maybe it is time for you to follow the advice you are so willing to give others - get real.

I'm headed back to the fruitcake discussion. Much less volatile, depending on how much rum they put in the cake of course.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Bonds and Clemens were putting up HOF numbers before juicing. The question how many voters hold them out for a few years for their transgressions. On the other hand, were McGwire and Palmiero HOF'er without juice.
I can picture Bonds' induction. Barry couldn't make it today. Here's a tape of his speech.

I think the concensus among writers was McGuire was borderline, before he got tied to juice and "testified" to Congress. After the testimony he got 23% of the votes, needing 75% to get in. He's a snowballs chance now.

Clemens is better than a snowballs chance now. What matters is what happens by 2013. If he says he juiced and extended his career 7 or 8 strong years, $100M and 4 Cy Youngs, as many think. He is out. The sportsmanship and integrity criteria bury him. If he says nothing and no additional evidence surfaces, he might get in after 3 or 4 ballots.

If it was numbers alone, he is in automaticly. He was the most dominant righty in the last 20 years. Sadly, it looks like he got a "boost" later on.

CADad,
Bonds case for presumptively pre-steroid HOF numbers is much wider than just homeruns. He had 8 Gold Gloves, with the last coming in 1998. He is the only memeber of the 400-400 club (HRs and stolen bases), and he achieved that in 1998.

3Fingered,
Good point.

TR-I also heard that proposal by Costas and thought it very intreging. Would we even be celebrating Bonds if Josh Gibson's homeruns would be in the record books. Wasn't alcohol illegal to possess and consume during Ruth's era? Would era's and strikeouts be totally different with the higher mound and more day games? Did the recreational drug use of the 80's affect the game? The number of baseballs used per game has changed since the early part of the last century and has made a large difference in the game. The different eras brought numerous challenges to the players of that era.

The best part of baseball is that it just shrugs it shoulders at the hardships the world sends at it. This game has overcome gambling, racism, a World War, expansion, free agency, cocaine, those ugly White sox uniforms with the shorts, labor unrest, an influx of foriegn players and Bud Selig. It will survive steroids, and come out the other side in better shape than ever.

There should probably be a lot of astericks.

If they cheated and STILL deserve consideration for HOF, at least wait until the cheater is no longer alive! Let his progeny enjoy the fruits of his deception but deprive the actual cheat of his desires.

Play the game by the rules or play some other game.

OPP!

We miss you. Hope all is well!

quote:

Originally posted by OnePlayer'sPop:
If they cheated and STILL deserve consideration for HOF, at least wait until the cheater is no longer alive! Let his progeny enjoy the fruits of his deception but deprive the actual cheat of his desires.

Play the game by the rules or play some other game.

That's probably appropriate considering their ill gotten gains will last for generations.

quote:

Originally posted by OnePlayer'sPop:
If they cheated and STILL deserve consideration for HOF, at least wait until the cheater is no longer alive! Let his progeny enjoy the fruits of his deception but deprive the actual cheat of his desires.

Play the game by the rules or play some other game.

Hey - OPP - long time no see!

I am still fine as frog's hair! Thanks for asking about my "current" state. Quick up date.... sheep out(LARGE COUGAR).... now interested in getting Quarter Horses trained and LATEST Longhorn baby raised,

Kid(son) married in Nov....rest of life happening as we speak.


TPM, met Mark at wedding, thankfully my pants did not fall off.

Rest of ya'llins, peace and love..... play ball.


OPP

A Merry Christmas to you, OPP!

Glad to hear you are OK.

OPP - in the house!!!

Merry Christmas OPP and family!

quote:

Originally posted by OnePlayer'sPop:

TPM, met Mark at wedding, thankfully my pants did not fall off.

OPP

Thankfully they didn't! I told Mark to give you a "hug". Now there's a visual.

OPP, great to see your name --- Merry Christmas to OPP & Co!