Kid called out on strikes, refuses to leave field and argues with umpire. Coach yells at him to get in the dugout. Coach goes out to plate and gets player grabbing him by back of neck. Parents call cops. Coach charged with assault and battery. This will be another quality high school baseball coach in Massachusetts removed from coaching.
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At times i sympathize with those who say parents should be banned from kids sports.
I'm going to be in the minority. But I think the parenting that would lead to this type of behavior is a bigger problem. And then to condone the behavior by calling the police was just what I needed to hear to confirm they're a problem.
The coach will be called an abuser. He will lose his job. He will cost the school a big lawsuit. Another player from a decade ago will come forward and say he moved him forcefully while trying to position him in practice, or yelled at him everyday and it effected this mental wellbeing. It will make things worse.
To tell me that the coach violently and maliciously put his hands on the player is probably a stretch. But it doesn't matter. Assault and coach don't go well together in the same sentence. The reality of it is that if the parents didn't raise a brat who thought his tantrum was acceptable, then justify it, none of this wouldn't have ever happened.
FWIW - the coach knows what year it is. You can't put your hands on a player who is already making a scene and not expect anything to happen.
Long story short: We live in a society of victims. This coach was stupid for doing it knowing the political and social climate.
PABaseball posted:I'm going to be in the minority. But I think the parenting that would lead to this type of behavior is a bigger problem. And then to condone the behavior by calling the police was just what I needed to hear to confirm they're a problem.
The coach will be called an abuser. He will lose his job. He will cost the school a big lawsuit. Another player from a decade ago will come forward and say he moved him forcefully while trying to position him in practice, or yelled at him everyday and it effected this mental wellbeing. It will make things worse.
To tell me that the coach violently and maliciously put his hands on the player is probably a stretch. But it doesn't matter. Assault and coach don't go well together in the same sentence. The reality of it is that if the parents didn't raise a brat who thought his tantrum was acceptable, then justify it, none of this wouldn't have ever happened.
FWIW - the coach knows what year it is. You can't put your hands on a player who is already making a scene and not expect anything to happen.
Long story short: We live in a society of victims. This coach was stupid for doing it knowing the political and social climate.
I agree. In 99% of coach conflicts it is the parents fault but you have to go with the time and know that physical punishment is off the limits nowadays. And it doesn't matter if the kid was actually hurt which he probably wasn't, phyical punishment even if it just symbolic is just not ok.
I know all the talk: kids are overly protected by the parents and then are in for a rude awakening when starting to work, "it didn't hurt americans 50 years ago to occasionally get slapped with the ruler" bla bla but studies have actually shown that phyiscal punishment is very detrimental to child development and later facilitates them punishing their kids phyiscally too which is the reason why society has decided that physical punishment by both parents and teachers is not ok. Contrary to some beliefs not everything was better 50 years ago...
I mean yeah that kid probably was a spoiled brat and maybe his parents are idiots who reinforce that behaviour but the coach should have known better. Just because his behaviour was considered ok 50 years ago it doesn't mean it forever is. I mean yeah it was normal in post ww2 society that teachers punish kids. My grandmother told me a story that if she told her parents her teacher slapped her with the ruler then the parents would give the kid another smack without even asking what happened because they just assumed the teacher was right doing it, nobody questioned whether the kid was treated fairly.
I can understand some want those times back considering how little respect and discipline some kids show but it really is good that those days are gone. Physical violence might have a short term positive effect on kid behaviour but it is just out of fear and creating dysfuncional relationships.
Coaches need to go with the time and adapt to certain developments. You can complain as much as you want about "liberal society" but it is as it is.
I’ll guess when the kid wouldn’t leave the plate the coach cupped his hand around the back if the neck and pushed him towards the bench. It was probably better then grabbing him by the front of the jersey or in a Full Nelson. The coach was probably trying to get his player out of there before he got tossed.
I’ve sat in the stands at this school’s football games. They’re a football, hockey and baseball powerhouse. They’re one of the Catholic private schools that doesn’t (wink, wink) recruit and competes against public high schools for section and state titles. At least they’re in a conference of Catholics that don’t (wink, wink) recruit.
Do people understand the difference between Catholic privates and Catholic high schools? The difference is 10-15K per year. It’s a parade of Mercedes, Beemers and Volvo’s to their games. There’s a sense of entitlement and superiority at schools like this. Westwood is near Foxboro. Almost every son of Patriot’s players old enough to be in high school play(ed) football there.
When my son was a soph he was punched out with the bases loaded on a 3-2 pitch that was a few inches off the plate. He turned to the ump and said, “What the” and stopped. His coach yelled at him. He told him to shut up and get in the dugout.” When it was time to go back in the field he was told to stay on the bench.
After the game my son complained to me he didn’t need to be yanked from the game. I only responded, “Yes, you did.” End of conversation.
FWIW, coach was dealing with a bad apple. Same kid was suspended at tryouts for talking back to the coach and swearing at him.
Acceptable behavior in a classic confrontation.
In one corner bratty player with protective parents and in the other a coach that is that will put hands on players and I would expect doesn't have much problem with bashing them verbally either.
Explosive mix unlikely to end well and it did not. Two wrongs do not make for right result. If true about coach being handsy and mouthy it probably meant it was only a matter of time before he ran into the wall AKA Bobby Knight. Kids are going to be brattier and more empowered due not only to parents backing them up but the cell phone.
Coaches have had the benefit of the doubt forever whenever conflict about what happens in these kind of interactions. That started to change about 5 to 10 years ago and the threads of this nature started to spark some pretty intense debates.
The cell phone video of profane dress downs of players started to come out. So the argument of coaches need to be tough vs. sneaky kids or abusive coaches vs. powerless kids ensued. IMO coaches have the power. They have the ultimate weapon in the lineup card. They never have to say a word - just not put a player in the game and they win the fight without ever having to resort to anything else. Players understand playing vs. bench.
There are other dynamics at play though. A coach that tolerates a mouthy player that undercuts his authority will eventually be weakened as players become emboldened to challenge everything. There are lines that need to be established for a team to function effectively. Here is where the 2nd of the coaches advantages comes into play. He can dismiss players entirely. In order for him to be able to use this tool he must be beyond reproach. He needs to be able to say - I communicated rules/expectations to players and parents. I followed those rules and applied them evenly to everyone on the team. Player X violated these rules in this way on these dates. I took these actions and behavior was not changed. I must remove player from team.
If coach does not use this approach or is seen as volatile in any way verbally or physically - he will lose. If any of this sounds familiar it is because it is the Code of Conduct in every workplace in America today.
We can argue about the merits of today's culture but IMO the past is riddled with abuse that needed to end. Pendulums swing and often come back the other way too far before swinging back to the middle and eventually get to the appropriate place. My feeling is we are going thorugh that process and hopefully we find our way to a solutions to these problems that yield good results and I for one still have faith it will happen even if there are some odd or even bad individual outcomes in the process.
Well if it is a travesty of justice, the player's family will be scrutinized and the kid will leave the school. This works both ways.
This entire story from the jackass kid, to ridiculous parents, to a coach not thinking clearly, to a DA who obviously has no common sense, to people thinking there is any logic here at all.
We are becoming a country of pussies - it is sad.
Teacher and Coach for 18-25 years deserves a break.
As wrong as he was, he should be removed for the balance of the season. Apologize at an Assembly and move on.
The Message will be understood, and the forgiving nature that is Christian will be reinforced.
Say 200 “Hail Mary’s” and report to JUG
Will be interesting to see how the rest of the team reacts to this. If they feel the player was in the wrong, which I suspect, will they continue to play with him on the team and their coach sitting at home?
Truly a sad day for HS baseball. A coach crossed the line but is probably an old school coach and a player who feels entitled. I struggle to coach today. I constantly find myself not being me. In fact, we played last week and a former player came up and mentioned to me that he saw just how much this type of stuff is wearing me out. Ultimately, a serious competitor such as myself and I would imagine this coach since he has lasted so long at that position are going to be phased out. At my retirement banquet, I have players and colleagues all lining up to roast me. Not one of those stories could happen today. NOT ONE and yet, those people will be talking about trips to state, state championships, turning losing programs around, ... Believe me, it is the same in the classroom. I'll wrap this post up by saying that in the middle of last week, I apologized to my team because I feel much less the coach than I was a decade ago. I'm 62 but that isn't why. I am trying to make it to retirement without getting fired. To say that these last couple of years have not been as much fun is an understatement and I love coaching. I feel for this coach. I know he probably regrets that he had to touch that player. He knows it is over for him. I would guess he still loves it and so, it will hurt him deeply.
Love the aerial shot of the "crime scene" from a freaking helicopter. Seriously??? Is this what the HS baseball coaching environment has become?
Too bad the coach didn't flee in a white Bronco.
I would think by now, people would understand that they can never put their hands on anyone for any reason, other than maybe self defense. Probably not even for self defense when it's between an adult and a minor. Justified or not. It's the society in which we live.
life4orce posted:FWIW, coach was dealing with a bad apple. Same kid was suspended at tryouts for talking back to the coach and swearing at him.
That was his real mistake. Not cutting the kid right then & there, and moving on. Play with the Devil you gotta deal with the Devil.
life4orce posted:FWIW, coach was dealing with a bad apple. Same kid was suspended at tryouts for talking back to the coach and swearing at him.
I had this conversation with fellow coach earlier this year about a young man trying out for team with big red flags in regards to his character and off field choices. My thought: "Let's just cut him. End of issue." HC replies: "Yeah, but I can't deny he is my best player at that position." My reply: "SO?????????"
This tide might turn when HC's actually do take character into account when assessing a player at tryouts. Cutting the best player due to documented character issues may lose you some games I agree, but it may also save you some jail time.
I had a young man enter HS his freshman year with a terrible reputation. In fact, I was told by the middle school basketball staff to cut him. The quote stated to me was that, "this young man is foul." I didn't cut him. He was trouble. I got after him. He turned the corner. In HS baseball, he was a stud. Whenever he started to get into trouble, I was called. He listened to me and turned his life around. His twin brother did not listen to me. He went to prison while the brother that did listen to me went the pitch in MLB for several years. You can't just write kids off.
I do not have a stance, because I did not see that happened. I have seen many times where a coach removes a player by putting his arm on the players shoulder and his hand on the back of the neck and guide the player off the field, why talking to him. Probably not what happened in this case.
However when the kid refused to leave the field, how should he have been removed?
If he got tossed and still refused to leave, how do you handle it? How would the Ump handle it?
Sooooo I'm not saying laying hands on the kid was right but what happens if he refuses to leave the field even after coach tells him too? How does this situation end? Obviously this kid is done but how do you make him leave if he refuses to?
As an adult, you never touch a kid. If you use force in that setting, with a crowd watching, even if the kid is throwing a fit you are going to get in trouble. He will be charged and I would think fired when the headmaster said it was assault. I think you just let the kid stand at home plate and make a scene. When he gets tossed, you just let him continue to show his rear end and then you have reason to release him. I think defending the coach is also wrong. You lay your hands on a kid and you need to be fired. Not old school logic just wrong, abuse. I know it used to be done but it was wrong then. And if you are doing it, then you are wrong.
I will agree there are some hard kids to coach but never a right to touch them.
ECoachB25 posted:I had a young man enter HS his freshman year with a terrible reputation. In fact, I was told by the middle school basketball staff to cut him. The quote stated to me was that, "this young man is foul." I didn't cut him. He was trouble. I got after him. He turned the corner. In HS baseball, he was a stud. Whenever he started to get into trouble, I was called. He listened to me and turned his life around. His twin brother did not listen to me. He went to prison while the brother that did listen to me went the pitch in MLB for several years. You can't just write kids off.
I 100% agree. As a matter of fact, I believe it’s part of the job. However, in today’s climate you are taking on a liability. One that can come around to bite you.
However becoming a “character czar” is a slippery slope too. A lot easier simply assessing tools
No easy answers in this climate.
Simply in the last 10-years, a LOT has changed.
BishopLeftiesDad posted:I do not have a stance, because I did not see that happened. I have seen many times where a coach removes a player by putting his arm on the players shoulder and his hand on the back of the neck and guide the player off the field, why talking to him. Probably not what happened in this case.
However when the kid refused to leave the field, how should he have been removed?
If he got tossed and still refused to leave, how do you handle it? How would the Ump handle it?
Police are called and they put hand on back of kid’s neck and lead him to back of squad car. He is charged w public disturbance. Dad lawyers up. Charges get dropped. Dad sues everyone. Including HC for putting son in that situation. HC’s career still over.
Hammer823 posted:I would think by now, people would understand that they can never put their hands on anyone for any reason, other than maybe self defense. Probably not even for self defense when it's between an adult and a minor. Justified or not. It's the society in which we live.
Check this out. A few years ago I listened in on a webinar about sexual harassment/sensitivity training for upper management. It was highly suggested that a male upon meeting a female in a business setting refrain from shaking her hand, unless she extends her hand out FIRST. Really? Now upon introductions, I glance down to see if her hand is extended first. Food for thought. Today's kids are tomorrow's parents.....
It doesn't matter whether he cupped his neck and made him walk off the field or if he pick him up by the neck and threw him 20ft into the dugout. They're both considered assault today. That is a problem that goes far beyond baseball. All it takes is one sensitive parent to perceive something as assault and it's over for the coach. Police show up, he gets arrested every time. Parents call the paper and HS Coach Assaults Player is the headline. It's already over at that point. He didn't even have to do anything. Because the school knows the conversation will be - isn't that the coach who assaulted his player? Even if he didn't.
Trust In Him posted:Hammer823 posted:I would think by now, people would understand that they can never put their hands on anyone for any reason, other than maybe self defense. Probably not even for self defense when it's between an adult and a minor. Justified or not. It's the society in which we live.
Check this out. A few years ago I listened in on a webinar about sexual harassment/sensitivity training for upper management. It was highly suggested that a male upon meeting a female in a business setting refrain from shaking her hand, unless she extends her hand out FIRST. Really? Now upon introductions, I glance down to see if her hand is extended first. Food for thought. Today's kids are tomorrow's parents.....
I no longer will close my office door when having a meeting with anyone, male or female. I want everyone to be able to hear and see what goes on, just to be safe. We live in an era where society has weaponized anyone's word regarding harassment, whether it is true or not.
coach2709 posted:Sooooo I'm not saying laying hands on the kid was right but what happens if he refuses to leave the field even after coach tells him too? How does this situation end? Obviously this kid is done but how do you make him leave if he refuses to?
As an official I would eject the player for unsportsmanlike conduct. Then wait to restart the game until he left the playing field. If he didn't leave I would have someone contact the school resource officer or local pd to remove him.
CoachB25 posted:I had a young man enter HS his freshman year with a terrible reputation. In fact, I was told by the middle school basketball staff to cut him. The quote stated to me was that, "this young man is foul." I didn't cut him. He was trouble. I got after him. He turned the corner. In HS baseball, he was a stud. Whenever he started to get into trouble, I was called. He listened to me and turned his life around. His twin brother did not listen to me. He went to prison while the brother that did listen to me went the pitch in MLB for several years. You can't just write kids off.
And this is what high school athletics is all about.
"Last night he was okay to the extent that we could see visibly, and by that I mean it wasn’t the type of case where we show up and someone has broken bone, thank god, or bleeding or a black eye, something that required medical attention," Westwood Police Chief Jeffrey Silva said. “It was an unconsented to touching, and therefore it's an assault and battery."
Coach, don’t touch me. I want to stay and argue with the umpire. Coach you touched me. Someone call the cops. <sarcasm
In retrospect the coach should have left the kid at the plate to make an ass of himself and get suspended by the MIAA. It’s what coaches will do in the future. It’s not fair to the umpires. But what coach wants to get arrested and possibly banned from coaching.
Parents wonder where the good coaches have gone. They’re instructing at academies instead of risking getting arrested coaching brats. And the pay is better. It has to be at least minimum wage.,
Too many parents feel no embarrassment over their own child's behavior. This appears to be one of those times.
PABaseball posted:It doesn't matter whether he cupped his neck and made him walk off the field or if he pick him up by the neck and threw him 20ft into the dugout. They're both considered assault today. That is a problem that goes far beyond baseball. All it takes is one sensitive parent to perceive something as assault and it's over for the coach. Police show up, he gets arrested every time. Parents call the paper and HS Coach Assaults Player is the headline. It's already over at that point. He didn't even have to do anything. Because the school knows the conversation will be - isn't that the coach who assaulted his player? Even if he didn't.
This is so true and so sad. The pendulum has swung too far.
Dominik said...
"I can understand some want those times back considering how little respect and discipline some kids show but it really is good that those days are gone. Physical violence might have a short term positive effect on kid behaviour but it is just out of fear and creating dysfuncional relationships.
Coaches need to go with the time and adapt to certain developments. You can complain as much as you want about "liberal society" but it is as it is."
I agree that people need to adapt but I don't agree in totality that "it really is good that those days are gone". There has been much needed positive progress in many ways but, as I said, there are also too many circumstances where the pendulum has swung too far and we need to work back in those areas toward reason and common sense. Those put in position of authority need to be given reasonable leeway to be the person in charge. If a kid is being a completely spoiled stubborn brat and decides to sit down and pout, disrupting the activity of the group, the person in charge should have every right to (without abuse) remove him from that place. Sometimes, physical removal is the only alternative. Again, this can be done without abuse. Unfortunately, there are those now who would consider a tug on the sleeve to be abuse or violence. Ridiculous. As Coach2709 said, what are you supposed to do if the kid won't leave? Cancel the game?
If it was my son, I would have thanked the coach because I would have been arrested for something worse than assualt
Probably was. PABaseball posted:It doesn't matter whether he cupped his neck and made him walk off the field or if he pick him up by the neck and threw him 20ft into the dugout. They're both considered assault today. That is a problem that goes far beyond baseball. All it takes is one sensitive parent to perceive something as assault and it's over for the coach. Police show up, he gets arrested every time. Parents call the paper and HS Coach Assaults Player is the headline. It's already over at that point. He didn't even have to do anything. Because the school knows the conversation will be - isn't that the coach who assaulted his player? Even if he didn't.
Heck, the school principal is using the word “assault,” in the TV interview. Basically, the principal is already saying in his own cafeteria the next day, “Hey isn’t that our coach who assaulted our student?” The principal, Brother Whatever, even goes on to say, “The student did nothing wrong.” Wow.
Now it’s the coach’s turn to play the victim card. He graduated and played baseball at the very school. Gee, who do u think he learned to coach from? Who was his coaching role model? Probably another long tenured coach like him. Maybe that’s how that guy coached? Maybe he was “physical” with his players back in the 80’s. Time for this coach to go to therapy and begin “remembering” incidents from his days as a player at the very school now throwing him under the bus and sue them for unwanted touching back in the 80’s.
Someone here already mentioned “JUG,” “Justice Under God.” My Jesuit HS in the 80’s did that. In “after school detention” priests, who were also coaches, made u do all sorts of crap that nowadays would never fly. I bet this HC at Xavierien would know exactly what I’m talking about.
RJM posted:Coach, don’t touch me. I want to stay and argue with the umpire. Coach you touched me. Someone call the cops. <sarcasm
I know you're being sarcastic in this, but want to point out that the kid's response to the coach telling him to get back in the dugout was more like f-off
I agree, and hind sight being 20/20, should have left him out there to hang himself, but then are you labeled as a coach that won't protect his players?
We had a high school coach who was the nicest guy. Kind of guy you want your daughter to marry. The senior ss was replaced in the lineup by a freshman because the senior made a lot of errors. Everyone except the senior and his parents thought it was the best move. The parents would make comments in the stands. The senior was a smart a$$. After the second game that he sat the bench, he went off on the coach. Was cussing the coach, dropped 50 f bombs. Senior said that his parents wanted him to quit the team. Coach was hot and said he didn't care what his parents wanted he wanted to know what he wanted, as the coach poked him in the chest. Parents went to AD, than principal. They knew the kid was a punk and tried to sweep it under the rug. Parents went to the school board and the coach was asked to resign.
Similar but different situation but same logic. Several years ago I had two parents who were both trouble makers all season long. In the semi-finals of a world series, one of them hollered at the other one's son from the stands. They got into it, woman and man, to the extent that they stopped the game. I never left my bucket, had all of it I could take that season. The tournament director came to me and asked me to do something about it. I just looked at him and said call the cops or throw them out I don't care. I have one more game with these parents and we are done. I loved the kids but the parents made it a nightmare. He made them leave the facility, best game we had all year. I told them after the game they were not allowed to come back the next day.
I would have just left the kid at home plate and told the umpires to call the cops or whoever.
I do see the issues this climate creates. Coaches will become less coaches and more glorified baby sitters who will not try to mentor and change lives but instead protect themselves and justify decisions with dishonest excuses.
It basically is protect your own ass first and only secondarily about the kids.
However still the coach crossed a line and made a bad decision.
Last year a coach was fired from his coaching job and his teaching job for something questionable that happened on the field. Is it worth the risk to coach for a 3-5K per season paycheck when you could be putting your 75K teaching job on the line?
At a high school a coach can be stuck coaching entitled brats. At an academy the coach knows 15-18yo players are ballers who are all in on the game. And get paid a lot more than coaching high school.
I know a HS HC who was in his 22nd year of coaching at the same HS he played at and graduated from. I will not go into any details, but let’s just say two decent ball players were kept in the program even though they were questionable character guys (the type that do stupid things after hours as sophomores on the team’s spring break tourney trip). The parent units were high maintenance PIAs and HC did not make a federal case of the “alleged” incident. Knowing how ugly it would get with the parents
HC kept them around. Bad idea. As juniors they and their parents led the charge to oust the HC for something he “allegedly” did while coaching the kids. Harmless I assure you.
They got him fired. HC giving these questionable character guys a second chance came back around to bite him in the a$$. He should’ve kicked them off team, or simply cut them at the next tryouts.
Theyre on team this season as seniors. He is no longer coaching.
and i'm sure all of these kids have done nothing wrong. in the case of xaverian brothers hIgh school, $22,000/year plus a sizable donation worth of nothing wrong.
“The kid was arguing balls and strikes. If you do that you get ejected. The coach wanted to save his player from getting ejected so he walked up behind him and pushed him towards the dugout, and in order to have leverage he used one hand to grab the back of his neck.”
- Witness to Boston 25 News
