60yrd time

if you got speed you got speed

It is done from the side..as if you were taking a lead from a base

THAT ISNOT A TRUE 60 TIME

Could this Coach not have gotten the memo?

I took times to record players foot speed to simulate 1b to 2b times.

With a 9 feet lead, I could give many players a green light if I recorded 3.2 sec.

Regards

Why do they insist on using the 60 yard dash as the measurement of speed for a base runner when I would think a scout would getting a better judgement of a base runner when he actually is timed running bases in the pre game drills?

The 60 yard dash is a measure of athleticism. It is simply a way to cross off anyone running slow. CF and MIF need to run sub 7. If one of these are your positions and you are not a sub 7 - you are crossed of the list. Now the scout needs to only watch 20 kids the rest of the day instead of 100-150.

Straight line speed cannot be taught. You have it or you don't. It is true that you can work on it and improve it but generally you either are fast or you are not.

If you are they can teach you to run around the bases better. If you are not fast no amount of base running instruction will make you a fast runner.

whits23- I have had experience in the past with the young man that you've listed in the PG link. He was not drafted by the Diamondbacks this year. The MLB Draft website lists the 25th round pick for the DBacks as George Williams, an OF from NC State. This young man attends Eastern Nazarene College. Possibly a mix up

I watched the 60 being timed at a recent showcase my son attended. I was really amazed at how much more athletic some kids looked running. I ran track in high school and took for granted that all people can run in straight lines. Apparently not.

JH thanks for pointing that out and i will take down the post with link..not fair to post kids as a rule but when i thought he was drafted that sort of makes him more public if you know what i mean.

what are realistic times for catcher for college D1 down to juco..I think my son was shocked that he is one of the faster kids on an elite travel team and his high school team but had a slow 60x when he had to turn and run the right way at a prospect camp. Also what expectations can you have regarding reducing time in say a 2yr window.

quote:

Originally posted by whits23:
JH thanks for pointing that out and i will take down the post with link..not fair to post kids as a rule but when i thought he was drafted that sort of makes him more public if you know what i mean.

what are realistic times for catcher for college D1 down to juco..I think my son was shocked that he is one of the faster kids on an elite travel team and his high school team but had a slow 60x when he had to turn and run the right way at a prospect camp. Also what expectations can you have regarding reducing time in say a 2yr window.

yes I would like to know everyones [position on 60 times for a catcher. I have had basbeall people I respect in my state tell me they need to be in the low 7s and I have had the roving catching instructor for an MLB team tell me they never even time their catchers and could care less about their foot speed.

Below is a quote from Coach May in an earlier thread. I found this while trying to locate an old thread that summarizes average size, speed, pop times, by position broken down by d1,d2,d3.

Do a search on your players specific position, and you will get tons of info.

"What coaches want and what they have can be two different things. The better your hitting ability the less important your 60 time. Some kids are just great players they just are not burners. Every coach wants these kids. The 60 is a measureing device. It is not the end all to be all. If you are wanting to play the mif and cf at a high level program your 60 time will be important as far as the scouting process. But I have seen kids that were 7.3 that could play the heck out of cf because they could get a temendous jump on the ball etc. If it was all about speed we would go to the track team and put gloves on them. As far as catchers I look for quickness behind the plate. Some kids might not be fast but they are quick and athletic behind the plate. The bottom line is if you can fly your hitting is not a total premium. And if you can not run fast you better be able to hit. And if you can hit you are going to be in the line up somewhere. As far as mlb scouts it depends on your posistion. If you go to a tryout and you are a mif you better break 7.0. And if your a first baseman and you run a 7.5 but you flat out mash that 7.5 aint going to scare them away"

If you hit you play.If seen some great middle infielders who can rake have quick burst speed but are straight line slow.If you hit you can play left and right feld without being the fastest either.center fieldera are another story.

If we determine speed is not a huge factor in catchers how much a factor is height if the kid can be good on defense, hit, throw run etc can a player 5"8 to 5"9 get a look at college

whits23,

try searching this sight for catcher specific topics. I can recall seeing several topics about size and weight of catchers. 5'8" would probably be ok if the player is built like a fire plug and can really hit the ball - and have all the tools that are specific to catching. It seems like you are looking for numbers that will say "this player will play in college" it is not that easy. Yes the average players are ___ tall, ___ lbs, ___ pop time. You can have the perfect body build, but if you can't play smart then these numbers dont mean a thing.

Really use the find feature on this website - you can read for hours.

quote:

Originally posted by jdawg_24:
Straight line speed cannot be taught. You have it or you don't. It is true that you can work on it and improve it but generally you either are fast or you are not.

If you are they can teach you to run around the bases better. If you are not fast no amount of base running instruction will make you a fast runner.

One thing is for sure, big D1 schools will pass over a kid because of speed. Son is a SS and was all district, etc...at a big 5A school in TX. Everything was great except for his speed, which in his senior year was 7.2 in the 60. He ended up signing with a mid-major D1 program and is a Freshman there now. After 8 weeks of being on their work out regimen, and gaining a ton of flexibility in his hip flexors, he ran a 6.7 last week timed by his coaching staff. I consider this a drastic improvement which goes to show it can be done with enough hard work.

No one ever said that coaches had much vision. They go by what they see.

Kent Tekulve was nearly tossed out in his free agent tryout because he didn't run fast enough. They weren't going to let him throw. And after that it took four or five years for him to get out of the minor leagues.

There is a template that is used, and if you don't fit it, you need to look for other ways to get on the field. Rare is the coach who can see disguised talent.

One of the local kids was an infielder. He wasn't fast for an infielder. 3rd round. He could hit and he threw 94. Now he's a third baseman in pro ball. He had scholarship offers from top schools.

Speed is nice but they'll find a place for you if you can hit.

Now granted the following is just my opinion, so take it for what little it might be worth.

I think the 60 yard times and it's meaning as far as scouting players is concerned, is changing.

I've heard several people talk about how kids are learning how to run the 60...to simply get a lower time for scouting purposes. So their 60 time is good....but their movement in the field or base running ability doesn't measure up to their 60 time.

And as messed up as this may sound, I think the bigger and stronger a player is, the less the 60 time means...depending of course on position and power at the plate.

That's just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by whits23:
Interesting that i saw kids running 60yrd dash from a spring stance or head on stance and they have decent numbers but then coach made them stand sideways like a baserunner and it really upped their time about 1/2 second..going from a say 6.7 to a 7.2 is a major jump..which way do most scouts,or colleges do it..i am afraid its from the side

side at all shocases and camps so far

quote:

Originally posted by cf:
The 60 yard dash is a measure of athleticism. It is simply a way to cross off anyone running slow. CF and MIF need to run sub 7. If one of these are your positions and you are not a sub 7 - you are crossed of the list. Now the scout needs to only watch 20 kids the rest of the day instead of 100-150.

and thats the God's honest truth...

quote:

Originally posted by cf:
"What coaches want and what they have can be two different things. ..... The 60 is a measureing device. It is not the end all to be all. If you are wanting to play the mif and cf at a high level program your 60 time will be important as far as the scouting process. But I have seen kids that were 7.3 that could play the heck out of cf because they could get a temendous jump on the ball etc. If it was all about speed we would go to the track team and put gloves on them. ......."

I've seen it firsthand. Son runs a best 6.8 and has gotten dinged by scouts because he's not down around 6.5 or lower as a CF. But I've seen those faster guys let balls drop in OF where my son would get to them easy. Speed helps, but I contend anticipating and getting a jump on the ball is as or more important when comparing a high 6's versus a low 6's.

quote:

Originally posted by Clemson896:

quote:

Originally posted by cf:
"What coaches want and what they have can be two different things. ..... The 60 is a measureing device. It is not the end all to be all. If you are wanting to play the mif and cf at a high level program your 60 time will be important as far as the scouting process. But I have seen kids that were 7.3 that could play the heck out of cf because they could get a temendous jump on the ball etc. If it was all about speed we would go to the track team and put gloves on them. ......."

I've seen it firsthand. Son runs a best 6.8 and has gotten dinged by scouts because he's not down around 6.5 or lower as a CF. But I've seen those faster guys let balls drop in OF where my son would get to them easy. Speed helps, but I contend anticipating and getting a jump on the ball is as or more important when comparing a high 6's versus a low 6's.

I agree ,,but the problem is you dont want to be scartched off the list until they see you catch a ball..we attended an iowa u baseball camp and he said its 7.0 or lower for his middle infielders.he said he gets a ton of walk ons trying out that run a 7.5..then he says he STILl gets calls from the parents wanting to know why there kid didnt make it..he says 7.5...lol..

Speed in the 60 is just like velocity for a pitcher. It is a starting point, nothing more. It is all about the expression "beauty in the eyes of the beholder."

I never understood why MIF positions generally require speed (I get arm strength for SS). Why cant a 6.9 high average hitter play third and a 7.4 power hitter play SS or 2B. The 60 does not always translate to range. IMO it can be a bit shortsighted.

Third basemen don't have to cover as much ground as SS. While 60 speed doesn't always convert to range when it does the 6.9 guy is going to cover more ground than the 7.4 guy. There are always going to be exceptions on specific teams. Sometimes a slower guy will have better coverage than a faster guy on the same team and then you go by coverage not by 60 times.

However, you are going to give the faster guy first shot because if he can live up to his speed then you've got the best coverage possible.

There is also more than one type of range. Jeter has mediocre lateral range for a MLB ss but has good up and back range.

But does 60-yard straight line dash time really indicate how well an infielder can break laterally 5-20 yards? Add in the anticipation factor (reading a batter's directional hitting tendencies, seeing the ball come off the bat, etc.), and some "slower" players might actually be much quicker and cover more range. Ditto for base-stealing, though I suppose coaches figure they can teach a fast runner better stealing technique?

Too bad they might've been crossed off lists because they couldn't run 180' as fast as other infielders.

quote:

Originally posted by rosin bag:
Why do they insist on using the 60 yard dash as the measurement of speed for a base runner when I would think a scout would getting a better judgement of a base runner when he actually is timed running bases in the pre game drills?

Why would running the bases in pre-game drills be any more accurate than in a measured sprint? If someone is truly interested in base running speed, the only real way to do it is in game situations. That way you’ll find out who the hustlers are and who has the “effective” speed. For several games a couple season back, I measured the batters from bat contact with the ball, to foot contact with the bag at 1st. I logged the times and the result, like GO, 2B, SacF, etc.. It was absolutely amazing how those times varied for players, and it was amazing how they compared to the times for each in the 40 and 60 sprints everyone had to run.

I finally stopped doing it because I was getting the kids in trouble with the coaches. The coaches understand there’s a difference between running out a fly ball to center and trying to beat out an IF hit. But, everyone wants the same hustle, no matter what, even though they know its not gonna happen. Personally, if I thought it was important, and I do, I’d be measuring those times and showing them to the players to try to get them to at least do better, but not everyone is like me, thankfully.

So here's a comparative question. Son's college coaches timed the team in the 30....not the 60. Obviously coaches have their own set of criteria for what they believe are important.....but since it doesn't appear to be "the standard".....any ideas out there on what a good 30 time would be? Son ran a 3.8.....was told that it was the equiv of a 6.6 60.....is that true?

Sandman,
Let's take a random group of 100 shortstops and have them run the 60. Then let's have them do a shuttle run test.

How do you think the results will correlate overall?

My bet is the faster runners in the 60 will tend to be faster in the shuttle. Will the 50th faster runner in the 60 be faster in the shuttle than the 70th fastest runner in the 60? Maybe not. Will the fastest runner in the 60 be faster in the shuttle than the slowest runner in the 60? Almost certainly.

If a player does happen to stand out in the shuttle relative to their 60 time and they have good hands, etc. then the ability to play shortstop will also stand out. The problem is that the kid who is faster in the 60 and also has the great shuttle times, good hands, etc. is going to win out and that's the choice the scouts have. They aren't comparing 2 or 3 kids, they are comparing hundreds or thousands even and they get to pick the ones who have it all.

.....uhhh why do you think scouts run around with stop watches at games.

It shocks me how many kids never practice running 60's before they go to a camp or showcase. They all do it so go out and practice it prior to going! Even though you start in a “baseball stance” it does not mean you have to stand there like you are you have to go back to 1st...you don't so angle your feet toward your target and get them separated like you are going to sprint. PG Staff had (maybe has) an article on their website on how to prepare for a 60. It is just one of the tests that scouts use to filter their applicants. Stanford for years has used SPARC testing as a way to filter kids. Like it or not they have found that smart athletic kids who can play baseball are better than smart not so athletic kids who can play baseball.

I understand what you're saying CADad; especially in a showcase environment, where scouts aren't seeing ballplayers playing ballgames.

I just think it's pretty clear that good ballplayers can slip through the cracks that way. I doubt Pedroia or Eckstein ran very fast 60s.

Similar to football, where the late Al Davis was enamored with drafting speedy WRs, yet he often whiffed because they just weren't very good football players. How many Reggie Waynes, Hines Wards, etc. did he pass over all those years, focused on speed?

Maybe a decade of experience on the ball field CAN'T always be made up for in the short time a college coach has to improve a player? Fortunately, showcases aren't the only way to be seen; some players benefit more from coaches seeing them play the GAME.

Article: Speed Can Be A Tricky Tool To Scout

most shocases now use a limited game format


I have yet to see a player get a scholarship just because he can runwell

Speed is just one tool and it will almost always be trumped by the hitting tools.

I played against a guy who supposedly was written up in SI as the best base stealer to never make the big leagues (I've never managed to find the article). He never made it past AAA because he couldn't hit.

Even so if I see a guy with blazing speed it is going to catch my interest enough to see if he can do some other things.

C'mon guys its obvious and you've heard it 100 times:

Speed doesn't go into a slump
Speed can't be taught
Speed plays offense AND defense
Speed never complains about the wind blowing in
Speed never has a bad day
Speed can go 0-5 and still contribute

Besides pitching there is nothing in this game that isn't improved with speed. Speed is also the scarce resource in recruiting. Finally, speed is still the best and easiest measure of overall athleticism.

quote:

Originally posted by leftyshortstop:
C'mon guys its obvious and you've heard it 100 times:

Speed doesn't go into a slump
Speed can't be taught
Speed plays offense AND defense
Speed never complains about the wind blowing in
Speed never has a bad day
Speed can go 0-5 and still contribute

Besides pitching there is nothing in this game that isn't improved with speed. Speed is also the scarce resource in recruiting. Finally, speed is still the best and easiest measure of overall athleticism.

Well said! Thus the reason every Scout and Coach covet speed. But, you have to beware of coveting anything as you can be led astray.

Unfortunately for them, athleticism alone, doesn't always translate to baseball skills. Every body likes to believe that they are the ones that can magically transform that into baseball success.
Many great athletes, at other sports, have tried and failed at baseball.

Joey Gathright anyone???

Fast dude that could not hit.

Again - You are missing the point. The OP's question wasn't "Why can't all the fast guys hit as well as the slow guys?", but rather, "Why do recruiters value speed over other skills?"

quote:

Originally posted by leftyshortstop:
C'mon guys its obvious and you've heard it 100 times:

Speed doesn't go into a slump
Speed can go 0-5 and still contribute

How about?
....... No one ever stole first base.
........ If you hit, you play!