A 5-tool player vs. a 3-tool player

arm strength and speed are both things you can work on also. long toss, band work, and working out can help arm strength while running alot, drills, XPE and programs like that all help with speed. now you arent gonna go from running a 7.5 to a 6.6, but you can improve your speed by a couple tenths of a second. so in a way you are very right. it all depends on how much you are willing to work.

I would guess that its because there are so many ball players that only posses 3 or 4 of the tools. There have been many ball players that can run, hit, power and field (See Damon), but not throw. Still a great player. Somebody brought up Mickey Rivers in another post. Lots of speed, but not many other tools. He had a successful career, though not a long one. Mnay great 1b's and 3b's have not had good speed but could really hit. Ortiz is a good example of a player that only needs hitting to be succesful.

Their all are God given. Just speed and arm strength is hard to get significant amounts of improvement.

A true 5 tool player is rare while a 3 tool player is a major league average.

Even Bonds and Pulojs have weaknesses, Bond's arm and Pulojs' speed.

quote:

Originally posted by the next...1:
Their all are God given. Just speed and arm strength is hard to get significant amounts of improvement.

A true 5 tool player is rare while a 3 tool player is a major league average.

Even Bonds and Pulojs have weaknesses, Bond's arm and Pulojs' speed.

You can find many good examples that are 06 prospects.

Rat Shapiro is back!

Here we go again. My bad, I thought he was gone a little sooner. My pont was that he didn't possess a lot of tools, but was successful nonetheless.

Hey BB, go follow somebody else around.

What I know, which isn’t much, a true 5 tool player is relatively rare. Colleges and pros recruit/draft&trade depending on what is physically needed and economically affordable. I am not a coach or a trainer, just a parent. Given proper professional instruction, with a speed and conditioning coach, I have personally seen young men increase running speed and arm strength. Everyone gets hung up on the 5 tools. How long has the “5 tools” been around? Were scouts evaluating Ted Williams, Tony Oliva, Dick Allen, Yogi Berra, or even someone relatively modern like Carton Fisk with the “5 tools”. When did this become the litmus test for talent and ability?

Smokey

In the eyes of many it is

But how many true 5 tool players are there in the game anyway? Not too many !!!


LIMOM

From your "foil" to you

I don't know too many people who minimize speed when looking at players but speed is not necessarily and end all be all--If a kid can hit there will be a place for him-- 1B/3B/C/DH--none of them require great speed-- speed can overcome some other lesser tools but dso can a good hitter

bbscout,

On another topic, I mentioned Mickey Rivers as being a so-so hitter. Lifetime of .295 is definitely better than so-so! Thanks for the correction!

Rivers also stole 70 bases in 1975. He finished 3rd in AL MVP voting in 1976. He had 210 hits in 1980. Led the league in triples both 1974 and 1975.

Then came Lance Johnson, another centerfielder whose major attribute was speed. It’s amazing how similiar Rivers and Johnson were.

Moc1, Lance would have given Mickey a run for that worst arm award!

Each of us should hope that our son's will turn out as "so-so" as these two.

I know lots of 3-tool guys have had great careers and lots of 5-tool guys couldn't put it all together.
From a scout's perspective who are some of the true 5-tool guys that had great careers? Thanks

if 15 years in the "bigs" is "so so" then I would like to be termed "so-so"---

Bottom line is this for me--the talent of player all around--not all have all the tools-- it is what you make of the tools that you have

Stupid question but at what point is a player designated as having "tools" and what quantifies the tools? Also, I've heard that 4&5 tool players are Pro prospects, 2&3 tool players college prospects...True?

bbscout,

If I have 1/2 of each tool - can I add them up so they equal 2.5 - then round up to 3 ?

LOL

I wasn’t tying to be facetious… A lot of scouts and PG staff hit this forum, it would be interesting to know when pro and college scouts identified and/or started using “The 5 Tools” as the benchmark in evaluating talent and ability, 5-10-30 years ago, as long as remembered, always? Thanks…

Thanks bbscout. I should have said many guys thought to have 5 tools never panned out.
What is your take on Corey Patterson? We heard in Chicago last 4 years or so he's a true 5-tool guy. Do you think he has the tools and simply hit a real rough spot at the plate or was his hitting ability overestimated?

I think you have to always include Robbie Alomar on the list of five tool players. Miguel Tejada seems to be right there as well.

Cory Patterson seems imho to be lacking at least two of the tools in power ande ba. Don't know him that well so could be wrong.

How many tools did John Kruk have?.......How many tools does David Ortiz have?.......

Patterson is hard to figure out. A high of 24 homers so there is some power & hit in 290 range once. Then the power & avg. both went south.
I think he wants to hit for power while Cubs wanted him to bunt more & use his speed to get on base. Cubs ran out of patience with him.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I think you have to always include Robbie Alomar on the list of five tool players.

When Robbie "The Spit Machine" Alomar played for the Mets - he left all his tools in the wood shed.

Pertaining to tools, maybe the chart below will help to understand why there are MLB players without all the tools. So much depends on the position! Listed below are the positions with "MO" of the order of importance of the 5 major tools. These are my opinions, not necessarily the standard.

Catcher
1. Field
2. Arm
3. Hit
4. Power
5. Speed

1st Base
1. Hit
2. Power
3. Field
4. Arm
5. Speed

2nd Base
1. Hit
2. Field
3. Speed
4. Arm
5. Power

3rd Base
1. Hit
2. Power
3. Arm
4. Field
5. Speed

Shortstop
1. Field
2. Arm
3. Hit
4. Speed
5. Power

Leftfield
1. Hit
2. Power
3. Field
4. Speed
5. Arm

Centerfield
1. Field
2. Hit
3. Speed
4. Arm
5. Power

Rightfield
1. Hit
2. Arm
3. Power
4. Field
5. Speed

Notice that 5 positions (IMO) hitting is #1 and it is not lower than #3 in priority at any position (other than pitcher). The other 3 positions (IMO) fielding is #1. So an argument could be made that the 2 most important tools are Hitting followed by Fielding. However, if the hitting is the only tool, but it’s graded among the best in baseball, BINGO… you have a "one tool" star!

Note: Certain positions require more than two tools - SS, CF, 3B, C... Others can be all stars with only two tools.

PG reminded me of something I've never grasped; certain positions are EXPECTED to be good hitters (1B, 3B) whereas other positions are not (C, SS). You hear people say "not only is he a good catcher but he can hit too, so that's a bonus" or something like "He's slotted to be our starting 1B so he'd BETTER be a good hitter".

How did this ever come about?

In my passion for the game, I have read much and learned some that way back before the long ball, the middle infielders were the most athletic along with the center fielder. They had the most ground to cover. Defense was very important in a game that had more doubles and triples than homeruns. They in turn did not have to be good hitters. If they could get on base by slapping or bunting they could run all over the place. The advancement of runners was very important as well, so speed was important. However, the big hitters were usually, not always, bigger, stronger, slower guys. They could defend a corner with limited mobility, even in the outfield, but their hittng is what made them important. There's still nothing like getting a speedster on via a walk or bunt and then seeing a slugger hitting a gapper to bring him around.

And there's Dave Kingman to throw a wrench into the toolbox.