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A good Piece and he also said he uses moderate amounts of weighted balls Training himself so he is no "hater" but still the Claim that the heavier balls increase ER range by destroying passive stabilizing structures is a pretty big Claim. if that indeed was true weighted balls would be very questionable (not sure if he talks about 7-8 ounce balls here or about 1 Pound plus balls).

I think you can't make that Claim without further proof, as of now it is just speculation by him.

It is speculative but not unreasonable. Heavier baseballs potentially increase ER laxity, making them a good choice for certain athletes and maybe not so much for others. Strength against an isometrically positioned dynamometer (testing IR/ER shoulder strength) can tell you a lot more than a static measurement.

I wrote an accompanying article (Mike was good enough to send an advance copy with some notes for review over the weekend) on the same topic here:

https://www.drivelinebaseball....ty-and-consequences/

Last edited by Kyle Boddy

Mike has done work on both my sons after coming highly recommended from several people.  He certainly has outstanding credentials and an impressive resume.  In addition, I would add that I have a son currently on a weighted ball program at a throwing facility utilizing Kyle's Driveline approach. He is experiencing success and is currently pain free.

Kyle Boddy posted:

It is speculative but not unreasonable. Heavier baseballs potentially increase ER laxity, making them a good choice for certain athletes and maybe not so much for others. Strength against an isometrically positioned dynamometer (testing IR/ER shoulder strength) can tell you a lot more than a static measurement.

I wrote an accompanying article (Mike was good enough to send an advance copy with some notes for review over the weekend) on the same topic here:

https://www.drivelinebaseball....ty-and-consequences/

I did some heavy ball throwing too this offseason (did some of the drills of your free program, albeit I was too lazy to do the complete program because I Play first) and I had a Feeling that the layback Phase is longer and smoother with the heavier ball. the arm is getting slower and deeper into ER, which maybe also causes a less hard Stretch shortening cycle and thus more relaxed muscles and deeper ER.

However if it really was passive structures being damaged I would be quite worried.

BTW did you a notice that without an adjustment the first light balls tend to go down more and the heavy balls tend to sail high? of course then you adjust but the first light balls I throw tend to bounce .

I read it.  Twice.  More confusion for the layman.  As the gatekeeper and final arbiter of what my son does with regards to throwing.  Still a no on weighted balls, yes on some long toss, yes on ASMI pitch counts and innings limit, no on ice, I don't care on running poles after games, yes on limited breaking balls, yes on limited weight lifting (once a week legs mostly), yes on bands but no longer telling him to, definitely  yes on a weekly pitching coach, no to owning a radar gun (but can't help asking if someone else guns him what he threw), no to pitching in fall ball, yes to no throwing at all for a couple months in winter.

But the article, opinions and sharing are appreciated.  The text was plain and simple to follow.  Just not sure their is any conclusion to take away other than to pay attention to research, etc.  Would like some things in absolute numbers instead of percentages.  I had a dime yesterday and then found a dollar.  I'm up 1000%.  I'm glad people are researching the topic and publishing.

Last edited by Go44dad

I think the main thing to take away from the article is that weighted ball work has remarkable potential to both increase velocity while decreasing injury, but, there is potential danger in simply buy weighted balls going at it. We are just starting to get a good hold on how to best use them. It's been proven for decades (though the work on this subject has been widely ignored by many in the field) that overload/underload training works. A weighted ball program should be done under the instruction of an instructor with a good track record or after careful study on the subject and methodology of their use. I think there are people doing some solid work right now and developing fantastic programs.

Go44dad posted:

I read it.  Twice.  More confusion for the layman.  As the gatekeeper and final arbiter of what my son does with regards to throwing.  Still a no on weighted balls, yes on some long toss, yes on ASMI pitch counts and innings limit, no on ice, I don't care on running poles after games, yes on limited breaking balls, yes on limited weight lifting (once a week legs mostly), yes on bands but no longer telling him to, definitely  yes on a weekly pitching coach, no to owning a radar gun (but can't help asking if someone else guns him what he threw), no to pitching in fall ball, yes to no throwing at all for a couple months in winter.

But the article, opinions and sharing are appreciated.  The text was plain and simple to follow.  Just not sure their is any conclusion to take away other than to pay attention to research, etc.  Would like some things in absolute numbers instead of percentages.  I had a dime yesterday and then found a dollar.  I'm up 1000%.  I'm glad people are researching the topic and publishing.

For perspective Go44dad, what age is your son?

Well, I got past the first sentence, which I think is impossible to support with data, or at least needs defined parameters ("One thing is certain when it comes to baseball pitching injuries, they are rising."). There are also several conclusions that I don't agree with. However, I'm always happy to hear that more studies are being conducted. This is such a complex problem.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

Well, I got past the first sentence, which I think is impossible to support with data, or at least needs defined parameters ("One thing is certain when it comes to baseball pitching injuries, they are rising."). There are also several conclusions that I don't agree with. However, I'm always happy to hear that more studies are being conducted. This is such a complex problem.

Yes. Many will continue to ignore the logic problem involved in supporting the argument that injuries are on the increase with only the evidence that surgical incidences are on the rise.

Dominik85 posted:
Kyle Boddy posted:

It is speculative but not unreasonable. Heavier baseballs potentially increase ER laxity, making them a good choice for certain athletes and maybe not so much for others. Strength against an isometrically positioned dynamometer (testing IR/ER shoulder strength) can tell you a lot more than a static measurement.

I wrote an accompanying article (Mike was good enough to send an advance copy with some notes for review over the weekend) on the same topic here:

https://www.drivelinebaseball....ty-and-consequences/

I did some heavy ball throwing too this offseason (did some of the drills of your free program, albeit I was too lazy to do the complete program because I Play first) and I had a Feeling that the layback Phase is longer and smoother with the heavier ball. the arm is getting slower and deeper into ER, which maybe also causes a less hard Stretch shortening cycle and thus more relaxed muscles and deeper ER.

However if it really was passive structures being damaged I would be quite worried.

BTW did you a notice that without an adjustment the first light balls tend to go down more and the heavy balls tend to sail high? of course then you adjust but the first light balls I throw tend to bounce .

The "longer and smoother" portion is a great way to phrase it, same with the notes about ER. It is definitely possible that passive stiffness is being "destroyed" though the wording is a little harsh by Mike. You have to realize Mike sees mostly injured patients and has dealt with some serious crap in his time as a professional, so his viewpoint is going to be skewed (just like mine is skewed towards performance).

And yeah that is super common

It seems to me the point of what Mike wrote in this paper is what he said here:

"I believe we are overdosing on velocity programs.

We are putting a lot of faith into programs being marketed on the internet that have not been validated scientifically to be safe or effective.  Again, just to be clear, there are many smart coaches on the internet with great programs.  I follow many great minds and really respect what they do.  But realize that:

  • People are trying to implement these programs on their own without thought or a clear understanding on what is safe and effective.  They are not selecting the appropriate dose.
  • People are implementing the same velocity program for everyone, often on a team-wide basis, not individualizing the dose for each individual.
  • People are getting greedy.  Many people think if a 1 lb ball can help them gain 3 MPH, than a 2 lb ball can help them gain 6 MPH!  They are overdosing.

We have a very limited understanding of the science weighted baseball, long toss, and other baseball training and velocity programs, but research is starting to come out.  Below is what we currently know regarding weighted ball and long toss programs.

If you are going to start a pitching velocity training program yourself of with athletes, you MUST understand the science"

I don't see that he advocates not using any of these training methods, just that at best we all have limited understanding of the science (what little there really is of it).

Truman posted:

I don't see that he advocates not using any of these training methods, just that at best we all have limited understanding of the science (what little there really is of it).

Unfortunately, I think there's still very limited understanding of pitching and arm injuries, in general. That is, why some people get injured and others don't, even under very similar conditions.

MidAtlanticDad posted:
Truman posted:

I don't see that he advocates not using any of these training methods, just that at best we all have limited understanding of the science (what little there really is of it).

Unfortunately, I think there's still very limited understanding of pitching and arm injuries, in general. That is, why some people get injured and others don't, even under very similar conditions.

Totally agree.  

While I think we've learned a lot over the last couple decades, issues concerning the human body is so very complex, particularly when looking at the differences from one body to the next.  We can see and measure differences on the outside, but haven't been able to do that for the inside (like measuring individual muscle density relating to strength and speed, or measuring individual tinsel strength of ligaments or of ligament attachment points, etc.).  Maybe one day we'll have the technology to quantify measurements on individuals for such things.  But until then, when we apply strength and conditioning techniques on a general basis, were not likely gong to lower the rate of injury issues much when striving for maximum performance from individuals.

But . . . even with machines where we do have the data to know just where the breaking points are, both inside and out, there are those who will push the machine to and beyond those points in their effort to get as much out of the machine as possible.  That will continue to be so for the  human body too.  

Last edited by Truman
  1. Overweight balls may be causing damage to the tissue of the shoulder to allow more layback.  This gain in layback may also increase the strain on the Tommy John ligament.
  2. Underweight balls increase the amount of peak strain on the arm.

 

Don't get me wrong, but  doesn't this imply that though it "may" increase velocity, it also "may" increase in injury?  It doesn't matter how you throw with either professional trainer or by untrained individual, the the damages do occur or did i miss something that stated if you threw with professional these strains will "NOT" occur?  Even in his studies a subject was injured while implementing a weighted ball program by professional?

Also if you trained regularly with 7oz ball or more, isn't it logical that a 5oz ball would be in the Underweight ball category and would cause the high peak stress as the 4oz ball did?

We have 6 new kids who have never thrown a baseball in their life and they desperately want to make the team.  One has decent velocity (65mph) while the others are around 55-60.  The guy who throws harder however puts everything into every throw and he gets tired quickly.  I keep telling him to take it easy but I think he wants to impress us.  How would you train these guys to get the most out of them?  Right now they throw rainbows over trees during lunch time.  I figured that's a good idea as that's what I did when I was a kid, but I was 10/11, not 15/16.   Should they do any long toss or hard throwing at all or should they just play catch everyday until next year?  

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