A fairly well written paper trying to connect certain velo development training methods with TJ. (I just found the paper and do not have any opinion.)
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Excellent paper.
Thanks for sharing Goose - good read, as well access to a few other articles
A good Piece and he also said he uses moderate amounts of weighted balls Training himself so he is no "hater" but still the Claim that the heavier balls increase ER range by destroying passive stabilizing structures is a pretty big Claim. if that indeed was true weighted balls would be very questionable (not sure if he talks about 7-8 ounce balls here or about 1 Pound plus balls).
I think you can't make that Claim without further proof, as of now it is just speculation by him.
It is speculative but not unreasonable. Heavier baseballs potentially increase ER laxity, making them a good choice for certain athletes and maybe not so much for others. Strength against an isometrically positioned dynamometer (testing IR/ER shoulder strength) can tell you a lot more than a static measurement.
I wrote an accompanying article (Mike was good enough to send an advance copy with some notes for review over the weekend) on the same topic here:
Mike has done work on both my sons after coming highly recommended from several people. He certainly has outstanding credentials and an impressive resume. In addition, I would add that I have a son currently on a weighted ball program at a throwing facility utilizing Kyle's Driveline approach. He is experiencing success and is currently pain free.
Kyle Boddy posted:It is speculative but not unreasonable. Heavier baseballs potentially increase ER laxity, making them a good choice for certain athletes and maybe not so much for others. Strength against an isometrically positioned dynamometer (testing IR/ER shoulder strength) can tell you a lot more than a static measurement.
I wrote an accompanying article (Mike was good enough to send an advance copy with some notes for review over the weekend) on the same topic here:
I did some heavy ball throwing too this offseason (did some of the drills of your free program, albeit I was too lazy to do the complete program because I Play first
) and I had a Feeling that the layback Phase is longer and smoother with the heavier ball. the arm is getting slower and deeper into ER, which maybe also causes a less hard Stretch shortening cycle and thus more relaxed muscles and deeper ER.
However if it really was passive structures being damaged I would be quite worried.
BTW did you a notice that without an adjustment the first light balls tend to go down more and the heavy balls tend to sail high? of course then you adjust but the first light balls I throw tend to bounce .
I read it. Twice. More confusion for the layman. As the gatekeeper and final arbiter of what my son does with regards to throwing. Still a no on weighted balls, yes on some long toss, yes on ASMI pitch counts and innings limit, no on ice, I don't care on running poles after games, yes on limited breaking balls, yes on limited weight lifting (once a week legs mostly), yes on bands but no longer telling him to, definitely yes on a weekly pitching coach, no to owning a radar gun (but can't help asking if someone else guns him what he threw), no to pitching in fall ball, yes to no throwing at all for a couple months in winter.
But the article, opinions and sharing are appreciated. The text was plain and simple to follow. Just not sure their is any conclusion to take away other than to pay attention to research, etc. Would like some things in absolute numbers instead of percentages. I had a dime yesterday and then found a dollar. I'm up 1000%. I'm glad people are researching the topic and publishing.
I think the main thing to take away from the article is that weighted ball work has remarkable potential to both increase velocity while decreasing injury, but, there is potential danger in simply buy weighted balls going at it. We are just starting to get a good hold on how to best use them. It's been proven for decades (though the work on this subject has been widely ignored by many in the field) that overload/underload training works. A weighted ball program should be done under the instruction of an instructor with a good track record or after careful study on the subject and methodology of their use. I think there are people doing some solid work right now and developing fantastic programs.
Go44dad posted:I read it. Twice. More confusion for the layman. As the gatekeeper and final arbiter of what my son does with regards to throwing. Still a no on weighted balls, yes on some long toss, yes on ASMI pitch counts and innings limit, no on ice, I don't care on running poles after games, yes on limited breaking balls, yes on limited weight lifting (once a week legs mostly), yes on bands but no longer telling him to, definitely yes on a weekly pitching coach, no to owning a radar gun (but can't help asking if someone else guns him what he threw), no to pitching in fall ball, yes to no throwing at all for a couple months in winter.
But the article, opinions and sharing are appreciated. The text was plain and simple to follow. Just not sure their is any conclusion to take away other than to pay attention to research, etc. Would like some things in absolute numbers instead of percentages. I had a dime yesterday and then found a dollar. I'm up 1000%. I'm glad people are researching the topic and publishing.
For perspective Go44dad, what age is your son?
14yo 2020
Go44dad posted:14yo 2020
that makes sense then and I agree
Well, I got past the first sentence, which I think is impossible to support with data, or at least needs defined parameters ("One thing is certain when it comes to baseball pitching injuries, they are rising."). There are also several conclusions that I don't agree with. However, I'm always happy to hear that more studies are being conducted. This is such a complex problem.
MidAtlanticDad posted:Well, I got past the first sentence, which I think is impossible to support with data, or at least needs defined parameters ("One thing is certain when it comes to baseball pitching injuries, they are rising."). There are also several conclusions that I don't agree with. However, I'm always happy to hear that more studies are being conducted. This is such a complex problem.
Yes. Many will continue to ignore the logic problem involved in supporting the argument that injuries are on the increase with only the evidence that surgical incidences are on the rise.
Dominik85 posted:Kyle Boddy posted:It is speculative but not unreasonable. Heavier baseballs potentially increase ER laxity, making them a good choice for certain athletes and maybe not so much for others. Strength against an isometrically positioned dynamometer (testing IR/ER shoulder strength) can tell you a lot more than a static measurement.
I wrote an accompanying article (Mike was good enough to send an advance copy with some notes for review over the weekend) on the same topic here:
I did some heavy ball throwing too this offseason (did some of the drills of your free program, albeit I was too lazy to do the complete program because I Play first
However if it really was passive structures being damaged I would be quite worried.
BTW did you a notice that without an adjustment the first light balls tend to go down more and the heavy balls tend to sail high? of course then you adjust but the first light balls I throw tend to bounce .
The "longer and smoother" portion is a great way to phrase it, same with the notes about ER. It is definitely possible that passive stiffness is being "destroyed" though the wording is a little harsh by Mike. You have to realize Mike sees mostly injured patients and has dealt with some serious crap in his time as a professional, so his viewpoint is going to be skewed (just like mine is skewed towards performance).
And yeah that is super common
It seems to me the point of what Mike wrote in this paper is what he said here:
"I believe we are overdosing on velocity programs.
We are putting a lot of faith into programs being marketed on the internet that have not been validated scientifically to be safe or effective. Again, just to be clear, there are many smart coaches on the internet with great programs. I follow many great minds and really respect what they do. But realize that:
- People are trying to implement these programs on their own without thought or a clear understanding on what is safe and effective. They are not selecting the appropriate dose.
- People are implementing the same velocity program for everyone, often on a team-wide basis, not individualizing the dose for each individual.
- People are getting greedy. Many people think if a 1 lb ball can help them gain 3 MPH, than a 2 lb ball can help them gain 6 MPH! They are overdosing.
We have a very limited understanding of the science weighted baseball, long toss, and other baseball training and velocity programs, but research is starting to come out. Below is what we currently know regarding weighted ball and long toss programs.
If you are going to start a pitching velocity training program yourself of with athletes, you MUST understand the science"
I don't see that he advocates not using any of these training methods, just that at best we all have limited understanding of the science (what little there really is of it).
Truman posted:I don't see that he advocates not using any of these training methods, just that at best we all have limited understanding of the science (what little there really is of it).
Unfortunately, I think there's still very limited understanding of pitching and arm injuries, in general. That is, why some people get injured and others don't, even under very similar conditions.
MidAtlanticDad posted:Truman posted:I don't see that he advocates not using any of these training methods, just that at best we all have limited understanding of the science (what little there really is of it).
Unfortunately, I think there's still very limited understanding of pitching and arm injuries, in general. That is, why some people get injured and others don't, even under very similar conditions.
Totally agree.
While I think we've learned a lot over the last couple decades, issues concerning the human body is so very complex, particularly when looking at the differences from one body to the next. We can see and measure differences on the outside, but haven't been able to do that for the inside (like measuring individual muscle density relating to strength and speed, or measuring individual tinsel strength of ligaments or of ligament attachment points, etc.). Maybe one day we'll have the technology to quantify measurements on individuals for such things. But until then, when we apply strength and conditioning techniques on a general basis, were not likely gong to lower the rate of injury issues much when striving for maximum performance from individuals.
But . . . even with machines where we do have the data to know just where the breaking points are, both inside and out, there are those who will push the machine to and beyond those points in their effort to get as much out of the machine as possible. That will continue to be so for the human body too. 
- Overweight balls may be causing damage to the tissue of the shoulder to allow more layback. This gain in layback may also increase the strain on the Tommy John ligament.
- Underweight balls increase the amount of peak strain on the arm.
Don't get me wrong, but doesn't this imply that though it "may" increase velocity, it also "may" increase in injury? It doesn't matter how you throw with either professional trainer or by untrained individual, the the damages do occur or did i miss something that stated if you threw with professional these strains will "NOT" occur? Even in his studies a subject was injured while implementing a weighted ball program by professional?
Also if you trained regularly with 7oz ball or more, isn't it logical that a 5oz ball would be in the Underweight ball category and would cause the high peak stress as the 4oz ball did?
We have 6 new kids who have never thrown a baseball in their life and they desperately want to make the team. One has decent velocity (65mph) while the others are around 55-60. The guy who throws harder however puts everything into every throw and he gets tired quickly. I keep telling him to take it easy but I think he wants to impress us. How would you train these guys to get the most out of them? Right now they throw rainbows over trees during lunch time. I figured that's a good idea as that's what I did when I was a kid, but I was 10/11, not 15/16. Should they do any long toss or hard throwing at all or should they just play catch everyday until next year?
Could it be that heavier implements are easier on the elbow but harder on the shoulder? I think javelin throwers have more shoulder injuries than elbow injuries, (they have elbow pain but not so often surgery I think).
Dominik85 posted:Could it be that heavier implements are easier on the elbow but harder on the shoulder? I think javelin throwers have more shoulder injuries than elbow injuries, (they have elbow pain but not so often surgery I think).
Could be something to this. You don't see quarterbacks with a lot of elbow problems.
personally,
with the individual that uses "all" of his body, I would concentrate on conditioning so he doesn't tire out rather quickly.
I think you need to develop a plan that consist of lifting weights for the lower body, steady diet of core regiment and long toss, but not too much to strain the arm. The lifting weight is hard thing to gauge as some body type is more ready then others at age 15/16 so I would consult a pro. I have never seen Yeager video before until 2 days ago, but I was doing almost the same thing with my son, but I think he has refined it from trial and error.
Most importantly, stick with a plan from beginning to end and adjust as needed but stick with it.
this is just what I would do or currently am doing, I'm not a pro, but i've researched a lot. Take it for whatever is worth.
A lot of the problem is that very few coaches, even most of the ones using weighted ball programs, really get why it works - especially with the underweight portion. Anyone interested in using weighted balls should, for beginners, simply spend just one half hour studying proprioception. Simply having a solid understanding of what this term means will make the goals and uses of weighted ball work a lot more understandable. It's a concept few are really familiar with, but simply knowing it will turn on light bulbs.
hsbaseball101 posted:We have 6 new kids who have never thrown a baseball in their life and they desperately want to make the team. One has decent velocity (65mph) while the others are around 55-60. The guy who throws harder however puts everything into every throw and he gets tired quickly. I keep telling him to take it easy but I think he wants to impress us. How would you train these guys to get the most out of them? Right now they throw rainbows over trees during lunch time. I figured that's a good idea as that's what I did when I was a kid, but I was 10/11, not 15/16. Should they do any long toss or hard throwing at all or should they just play catch everyday until next year?
Hey Coach,
I think long toss is good as part of the equation but it should be monitored, at least until you have drilled the importance of maintaining proper mechanics when throwing with an intentional arc. My experience is that most new players drop their arm angle and fly open when they just jump into long toss without proper guidance.
I would have a very specific progressive warm up and throwing routine for them instead of "just play catch". Again, there should be lots of guidance by coaches as to give them a chance to properly develop good mechanics and kinetic chain. For some, most of this comes naturally. For many, it does not. For most, slight adjustments at the outset can make a big difference in how much they can improve in a relatively short period of time. Close monitoring of throwing mechanics during warm ups is so important, yet I see so many coaches use this time as their "BS with the other coaches" time or "field maintenance" time.
Even more important... I'd spend more time on hitting
I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
D6L posted:I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
There are a lot of common misconceptions concerning weighted ball work in this post. First is the idea that MLB clubs don't use weighted balls. It's just not trues. A lot of them do. Even with clubs that may not formally incorporate programs, many very durable mlb'ers do use weighted balls as very important components to their personal programs. You don't have to look any farther than this World Series. If you watched Chapman warm up in the bullpen, you will see him use a weighted ball. In fact, one of the earliest proponents was Rivera.
A second misconception is that you can probably put off much of the velocity gains to natural growth. While this has some merit concerning long toss, where reports of gains come over longer periods of time, it just doesn't work for weighted ball gains. Every documented study concerning this deals with velocity gains over a very short period of time - usually no more than three months. Over such a short period of time, natural growth cannot be a factor. Additionally, this is an area where it is possible to separate out the numbers as they apply to younger players. One has to look no farther than Kyle Boddy's work in Washington to see a pattern of fully physically developed pitchers experiencing remarkable velocity gains over a relatively short period of time. Such developments couldn't possibly be the result of natural growth in subjects of this classification.
An anecdotal story of a single pitcher who needed surgery a year after using weighted balls is not very useful to the conversation. However, a long term comparison of injury rates among pitchers who use weighted ball programs and pitchers who don't would be useful. Of course, the conclusions of any such story would have to take two competing notions into account; 1) the idea that increased velocity inherently increases risk factors and 2) the idea that weighted ball work can actually increase the strength the smaller muscle groups surrounding the elbow, therefore allowing it to withstand greater stress factors. So, for example, if you saw increased velocity in our weighted ball subjects, but similar injury rates, you could certainly conclude that it has substantial positive effect. The same conclusion could be reached if you saw no increase in velocity gain rates of change, but substantially lower injury rates in weighted ball pitchers. However, if you saw only slight changes in increased velocity and substantially greater injury rates in weighted ball pitchers, you could conclude the opposite.
edit: Another misconception is that weighted balls as a general concept are a new untested training method and that the old timers didn't need them. In reality, weighted balls have been around for more than a hundred years. IN the old days, pitchers would soak balls in water to weight them down for throwing "programs."
roothog66 posted:Dominik85 posted:Could it be that heavier implements are easier on the elbow but harder on the shoulder? I think javelin throwers have more shoulder injuries than elbow injuries, (they have elbow pain but not so often surgery I think).
Could be something to this. You don't see quarterbacks with a lot of elbow problems.
When I look at slow-mo of football throwing, it reminds me more of long-toss in baseball. Missing are the bend at the waste, the big follow-through, and the downward angle of the throw. I'm guessing the lack of elbow problems has more to do with the difference in effort/stress.
MidAtlanticDad posted:When I look at slow-mo of football throwing, it reminds me more of long-toss in baseball. Missing are the bend at the waste, the big follow-through, and the downward angle of the throw. I'm guessing the lack of elbow problems has more to do with the difference in effort/stress.
The things you mention don't really support your theory though. They are mechanical differences, not effort.
However those observations do get to the heart of the issue. It's not always what you are throwing - but how you throw it.
Marshall had guys throwing iron balls, not just the slightly heavier balls everybody gets up in arms about. I don't think he had any guys hurt their elbows doing it.
That doesn't mean I'm a big Marshall fan, but even if I question the effectiveness of the mechanics he advocates - It certainly does pass the safety test.
Specifics aside, quarterbacks and pitchers throw the ball differently. One group has a history of elbow injuries, one does not.
Instead of just passing it off as being different, we should be looking at what can be learned from the way a football is thrown.
Rob T posted:MidAtlanticDad posted:When I look at slow-mo of football throwing, it reminds me more of long-toss in baseball. Missing are the bend at the waste, the big follow-through, and the downward angle of the throw. I'm guessing the lack of elbow problems has more to do with the difference in effort/stress.
The things you mention don't really support your theory though. They are mechanical differences, not effort.
I guess I was trying to say that the mechanics of pitching a baseball allow for or cause more effort/stress to the elbow than the mechanics of throwing a football. IOW, it's not just that the mechanics are different, it's that pitching mechanics wring every ounce of kinetics out of your body and focus it down through your arm. Football throwing is more like outfielder throwing, and outfielders don't seem to have many elbow injuries either. So I guess my conclusion is that the weight isn't nearly as big of a factor (if at all) as the mechanics of pitching off of a mound.
roothog66 posted:It's been proven for decades (though the work on this subject has been widely ignored by many in the field) that overload/underload training works.
'works' for what? Velocity? UCL/shoulder injury reduction? Not sure what you mean here, and if it relates to this topic.
roothog66 posted:D6L posted:I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
There are a lot of common misconceptions concerning weighted ball work in this post. First is the idea that MLB clubs don't use weighted balls. It's just not trues. A lot of them do. Even with clubs that may not formally incorporate programs, many very durable mlb'ers do use weighted balls as very important components to their personal programs. You don't have to look any farther than this World Series. If you watched Chapman warm up in the bullpen, you will see him use a weighted ball. In fact, one of the earliest proponents was Rivera.
A second misconception is that you can probably put off much of the velocity gains to natural growth. While this has some merit concerning long toss, where reports of gains come over longer periods of time, it just doesn't work for weighted ball gains. Every documented study concerning this deals with velocity gains over a very short period of time - usually no more than three months. Over such a short period of time, natural growth cannot be a factor. Additionally, this is an area where it is possible to separate out the numbers as they apply to younger players. One has to look no farther than Kyle Boddy's work in Washington to see a pattern of fully physically developed pitchers experiencing remarkable velocity gains over a relatively short period of time. Such developments couldn't possibly be the result of natural growth in subjects of this classification.
An anecdotal story of a single pitcher who needed surgery a year after using weighted balls is not very useful to the conversation. However, a long term comparison of injury rates among pitchers who use weighted ball programs and pitchers who don't would be useful. Of course, the conclusions of any such story would have to take two competing notions into account; 1) the idea that increased velocity inherently increases risk factors and 2) the idea that weighted ball work can actually increase the strength the smaller muscle groups surrounding the elbow, therefore allowing it to withstand greater stress factors. So, for example, if you saw increased velocity in our weighted ball subjects, but similar injury rates, you could certainly conclude that it has substantial positive effect. The same conclusion could be reached if you saw no increase in velocity gain rates of change, but substantially lower injury rates in weighted ball pitchers. However, if you saw only slight changes in increased velocity and substantially greater injury rates in weighted ball pitchers, you could conclude the opposite.
edit: Another misconception is that weighted balls as a general concept are a new untested training method and that the old timers didn't need them. In reality, weighted balls have been around for more than a hundred years. IN the old days, pitchers would soak balls in water to weight them down for throwing "programs."
I believe you are validating what I am saying, listing individuals who use weighted balls as their individual preference and not the Organizations embracing the weighted ball as the sole source of increasing velocity. As you noted that this idea has been around for years also supports what i am trying to impart. As for Chapman you can youtube his mechanics as to why he can throw 105mph, not because of the weighted balls, but his hip to shoulder separation is BETTER than most elite pitchers and having his size is bonus as well. My assumption is, if he does use the weighted balls during bullpen session or warmup, this would stretch the hip/shoulder separation or even strength it, without undue stress of lifting heavy weights for the upper body rotation.
I agree that there is a place for weighted balls in a workout, but should not be touted as the "Main" source to increase velocity, in my opinion. In a 3 month period of "workout" program, you are in essence strength something and in any workout program it does take 3 months to see results. I know that if you put a load on anything continuously there will be some results, but why are we overloading the arm to the extreme when most of the power comes from the leg. When we overload something continuously there will be consequences.
Like you on this board I have read weighted ball research papers, during one of these programs an individual hurt his arm, and this was conducted by professionals as well.
Wasn't the Tampa Bay article done by professionals for the professional who competes at the very top? I am not sure how we can ignore it completely.
Just for the record... TJ surgeries have gone way down in 2016. Nearly 300%! Lowest number since TJ surgery became so common. Why aren't people talking about that? Guess it isn't quite as news worthy as calling it an epidemic. Probably some people hoping it increases again next year so they can continue writing about the epidemic. I hope it continues to decrease!
PGStaff posted:Just for the record... TJ surgeries have gone way down in 2016. Nearly 300%! Lowest number since TJ surgery became so common. Why aren't people talking about that? Guess it isn't quite as news worthy as calling it an epidemic. Probably some people hoping it increases again next year so they can continue writing about the epidemic. I hope it continues to decrease!
Wow! Is there a consensus of why? What is your take on what is happening?
My son is 12 and doesn't turn 13 until spring and only throws 61-62mph, last season was the first time since 8 that his velocity didn't increase 5mph, rather it increase only by 2mph. The only exercise we eliminated was the long toss, we figured because he was on a better team that they would have better program and the extra work was not needed. This season to get ready for the spring 13U we will implement the long toss (probably late Jan.)as well as other core exercises, not to keen on heavy lifting at this age. We have never used weighted balls in any of our programs. So we are going to see how the long toss in conjunction with core and light weight leg exercise program will produce. When I say light weight, I mean 2-4lbs for the legs.
PGStaff posted:Just for the record... TJ surgeries have gone way down in 2016. Nearly 300%! Lowest number since TJ surgery became so common. Why aren't people talking about that? Guess it isn't quite as news worthy as calling it an epidemic. Probably some people hoping it increases again next year so they can continue writing about the epidemic. I hope it continues to decrease!
Sounds like great news. Do you know if the number are available from any publications yet?
PGStaff posted:Just for the record... TJ surgeries have gone way down in 2016. Nearly 300%!
I wonder if more pitchers are going through stem cell therapy.
Random variation is the most likely cause. Which isn't exciting.
Kyle Boddy posted:Random variation is the most likely cause. Which isn't exciting.
+1
D6L posted:roothog66 posted:D6L posted:I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
There are a lot of common misconceptions concerning weighted ball work in this post. First is the idea that MLB clubs don't use weighted balls. It's just not trues. A lot of them do. Even with clubs that may not formally incorporate programs, many very durable mlb'ers do use weighted balls as very important components to their personal programs. You don't have to look any farther than this World Series. If you watched Chapman warm up in the bullpen, you will see him use a weighted ball. In fact, one of the earliest proponents was Rivera.
A second misconception is that you can probably put off much of the velocity gains to natural growth. While this has some merit concerning long toss, where reports of gains come over longer periods of time, it just doesn't work for weighted ball gains. Every documented study concerning this deals with velocity gains over a very short period of time - usually no more than three months. Over such a short period of time, natural growth cannot be a factor. Additionally, this is an area where it is possible to separate out the numbers as they apply to younger players. One has to look no farther than Kyle Boddy's work in Washington to see a pattern of fully physically developed pitchers experiencing remarkable velocity gains over a relatively short period of time. Such developments couldn't possibly be the result of natural growth in subjects of this classification.
An anecdotal story of a single pitcher who needed surgery a year after using weighted balls is not very useful to the conversation. However, a long term comparison of injury rates among pitchers who use weighted ball programs and pitchers who don't would be useful. Of course, the conclusions of any such story would have to take two competing notions into account; 1) the idea that increased velocity inherently increases risk factors and 2) the idea that weighted ball work can actually increase the strength the smaller muscle groups surrounding the elbow, therefore allowing it to withstand greater stress factors. So, for example, if you saw increased velocity in our weighted ball subjects, but similar injury rates, you could certainly conclude that it has substantial positive effect. The same conclusion could be reached if you saw no increase in velocity gain rates of change, but substantially lower injury rates in weighted ball pitchers. However, if you saw only slight changes in increased velocity and substantially greater injury rates in weighted ball pitchers, you could conclude the opposite.
edit: Another misconception is that weighted balls as a general concept are a new untested training method and that the old timers didn't need them. In reality, weighted balls have been around for more than a hundred years. IN the old days, pitchers would soak balls in water to weight them down for throwing "programs."
I believe you are validating what I am saying, listing individuals who use weighted balls as their individual preference and not the Organizations embracing the weighted ball as the sole source of increasing velocity. As you noted that this idea has been around for years also supports what i am trying to impart. As for Chapman you can youtube his mechanics as to why he can throw 105mph, not because of the weighted balls, but his hip to shoulder separation is BETTER than most elite pitchers and having his size is bonus as well. My assumption is, if he does use the weighted balls during bullpen session or warmup, this would stretch the hip/shoulder separation or even strength it, without undue stress of lifting heavy weights for the upper body rotation.
I agree that there is a place for weighted balls in a workout, but should not be touted as the "Main" source to increase velocity, in my opinion. In a 3 month period of "workout" program, you are in essence strength something and in any workout program it does take 3 months to see results. I know that if you put a load on anything continuously there will be some results, but why are we overloading the arm to the extreme when most of the power comes from the leg. When we overload something continuously there will be consequences.
Like you on this board I have read weighted ball research papers, during one of these programs an individual hurt his arm, and this was conducted by professionals as well.
Wasn't the Tampa Bay article done by professionals for the professional who competes at the very top? I am not sure how we can ignore it completely.
To quote George McFly: " I'm writing this down. This is good stuff!"
TE
D6L posted:roothog66 posted:D6L posted:I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
There are a lot of common misconceptions concerning weighted ball work in this post. First is the idea that MLB clubs don't use weighted balls. It's just not trues. A lot of them do. Even with clubs that may not formally incorporate programs, many very durable mlb'ers do use weighted balls as very important components to their personal programs. You don't have to look any farther than this World Series. If you watched Chapman warm up in the bullpen, you will see him use a weighted ball. In fact, one of the earliest proponents was Rivera.
A second misconception is that you can probably put off much of the velocity gains to natural growth. While this has some merit concerning long toss, where reports of gains come over longer periods of time, it just doesn't work for weighted ball gains. Every documented study concerning this deals with velocity gains over a very short period of time - usually no more than three months. Over such a short period of time, natural growth cannot be a factor. Additionally, this is an area where it is possible to separate out the numbers as they apply to younger players. One has to look no farther than Kyle Boddy's work in Washington to see a pattern of fully physically developed pitchers experiencing remarkable velocity gains over a relatively short period of time. Such developments couldn't possibly be the result of natural growth in subjects of this classification.
An anecdotal story of a single pitcher who needed surgery a year after using weighted balls is not very useful to the conversation. However, a long term comparison of injury rates among pitchers who use weighted ball programs and pitchers who don't would be useful. Of course, the conclusions of any such story would have to take two competing notions into account; 1) the idea that increased velocity inherently increases risk factors and 2) the idea that weighted ball work can actually increase the strength the smaller muscle groups surrounding the elbow, therefore allowing it to withstand greater stress factors. So, for example, if you saw increased velocity in our weighted ball subjects, but similar injury rates, you could certainly conclude that it has substantial positive effect. The same conclusion could be reached if you saw no increase in velocity gain rates of change, but substantially lower injury rates in weighted ball pitchers. However, if you saw only slight changes in increased velocity and substantially greater injury rates in weighted ball pitchers, you could conclude the opposite.
edit: Another misconception is that weighted balls as a general concept are a new untested training method and that the old timers didn't need them. In reality, weighted balls have been around for more than a hundred years. IN the old days, pitchers would soak balls in water to weight them down for throwing "programs."
I believe you are validating what I am saying, listing individuals who use weighted balls as their individual preference and not the Organizations embracing the weighted ball as the sole source of increasing velocity. As you noted that this idea has been around for years also supports what i am trying to impart. As for Chapman you can youtube his mechanics as to why he can throw 105mph, not because of the weighted balls, but his hip to shoulder separation is BETTER than most elite pitchers and having his size is bonus as well. My assumption is, if he does use the weighted balls during bullpen session or warmup, this would stretch the hip/shoulder separation or even strength it, without undue stress of lifting heavy weights for the upper body rotation.
I agree that there is a place for weighted balls in a workout, but should not be touted as the "Main" source to increase velocity, in my opinion. In a 3 month period of "workout" program, you are in essence strength something and in any workout program it does take 3 months to see results. I know that if you put a load on anything continuously there will be some results, but why are we overloading the arm to the extreme when most of the power comes from the leg. When we overload something continuously there will be consequences.
Like you on this board I have read weighted ball research papers, during one of these programs an individual hurt his arm, and this was conducted by professionals as well.
Wasn't the Tampa Bay article done by professionals for the professional who competes at the very top? I am not sure how we can ignore it completely.
First, can you come the article you're talking about. I'd like to read it. I also wanted to mention that the Indians implement a wb program for their minor league pitchers. To address a few other things. You bring up a good point that lower body is a major component in high velocity throwing. Your question, though, is based on a common misconception as to what the goals of a weighted ball program are.
It's not about strengthening the arm for the purpose of muscling up a pitch. The basis can best be addressed in terms of proprioception. Your arm will only move as fast as you have trained it to go and only as fast as it can handle. When we talk about muscle memory, it is not exactly what it sounds like. A combination of muscles and capsules in the joints internally "learn" and "remember" patterns of joint movement. It is why a baby has to learn to walk. It is why most people cant thriw the same with their off hand. Now to apply it to pitching.
Research on cadavers has shown that the human ucl,on its own, can only take a force about equal to that applied by an 86mph fastball. However, the musclea surrounding it allow for greater forces. As these forces are applied, the joints "allow" fastwr movement whuch is then engrained into arm action. So, heavy balls build the muscles around the ucl, allowong it to handle a faster movement, and then light balls sort of "trick" the arm into moving faster. So, it is not about simply adding muscle to the arm.
your analogy to lifting weights does not work here. Yes, it takes about three months to see strength improvement with a weight program, but that is because strength increase is how you are measurong gains. That is not how gains are measured with a WB program. We are measuring gains by mph, and thise gains come much quicker.
most of the gains of an overload underload program happen in the first month because it is mostly a neuronal adaptation.
Ardolis Chapman needs to be studied closely. Why and how has he avoided TJ surgery? If 90 mph is dangerous, how does someone that throws above 100 stay healthy? The guy has been throwing with record breaking velocity for 10 years. He throws power sliders, often over 90 mph.
Seriously, how does he do what he does without getting injured? Every pitch he throws is far beyond any boundaries the medical profession has established.
Nolan Ryan was a power pitcher well into his 40s. And he threw more pitches than anyone ever. Basing that on the fact he holds the record for career strike outs and also the all time record for Walks. How did he do that without TJ surgery along the way?
It's easy to just say they, and others, are just exceptions or freaks of nature. At the same time it would be interesting to know what all the pitchers that stay away from injury, did differently than those that suffered injury.
PGStaff posted:Ardolis Chapman needs to be studied closely. Why and how has he avoided TJ surgery? If 90 mph is dangerous, how does someone that throws above 100 stay healthy? The guy has been throwing with record breaking velocity for 10 years. He throws power sliders, often over 90 mph.
Seriously, how does he do what he does without getting injured? Every pitch he throws is far beyond any boundaries the medical profession has established.
Nolan Ryan was a power pitcher well into his 40s. And he threw more pitches than anyone ever. Basing that on the fact he holds the record for career strike outs and also the all time record for Walks. How did he do that without TJ surgery along the way?
It's easy to just say they, and others, are just exceptions or freaks of nature. At the same time it would be interesting to know what all the pitchers that stay away from injury, did differently than those that suffered injury.
I won't begin to say I understand how they both remained healthy or how Dizzy Dean could throw both ends of a double header without being carried off the field but I have a theory.
I tend to be curious about the very early (less than 10 years) experience of these players. I wonder if youth that begin physical labor at an earlier age (carrying feed, lifting, stooping to pick beans in the garden, running from place to place etc.) begin to build the tendon, ligament and connection point strength that children today simply do not often acquire. As they grow and begin to engage in sports the substructure to prevent injury is already in place and they are building the sports specific muscles the physical structure.
Of course theories are like opinions...everybody has them 
When looking at the old timers, I think you have to also work under the assumption that many of them were, indeed, injured and simply played through it as long as they could. Since we didn't have radar, it's hard to tell how much velocity was lost, but I think it is logical to assume that ucl tears happened back then. It's entirely possible to pitch effectively with a torn ucl. Most of the care back then didn't deal with fixing the problem. The major focus was on pain management.
roothog66 posted:When looking at the old timers, I think you have to also work under the assumption that many of them were, indeed, injured and simply played through it as long as they could. Since we didn't have radar, it's hard to tell how much velocity was lost, but I think it is logical to assume that ucl tears happened back then. It's entirely possible to pitch effectively with a torn ucl. Most of the care back then didn't deal with fixing the problem. The major focus was on pain management.
I'm about 16+ years removed from playing college ball. I frequently had elbow pain that I had to manage, as you said. Never had any imaging done. I'm almost curious enough to have an MRI done of my elbow to see if there is some residual scarring on the UCL.
Since I work with a lot of pro ballplayers, I assure you, the vast majority are taking plenty of pills and doing a lot of things to manage pain throughout the season - position players and pitchers alike. Many pitch with a partial tear of their UCL.
A big misconception is that you tear your UCL and the team pays for an MRI and you get Tommy John within a week. Not so much. The team force feeds you drugs, gets a useless X-Ray, does manual tests that declare "soreness," put you on the shadow DL, jerk you around in rehab, and do everything they can to not MRI your arm and pay for surgery. That's how it really goes down in most minor league organizations. And that can take months.
What you see in the big leagues is not how it goes down for the rest of pro ball. Remember that.
roothog66 posted:D6L posted:roothog66 posted:D6L posted:I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
There are a lot of common misconceptions concerning weighted ball work in this post. First is the idea that MLB clubs don't use weighted balls. It's just not trues. A lot of them do. Even with clubs that may not formally incorporate programs, many very durable mlb'ers do use weighted balls as very important components to their personal programs. You don't have to look any farther than this World Series. If you watched Chapman warm up in the bullpen, you will see him use a weighted ball. In fact, one of the earliest proponents was Rivera.
A second misconception is that you can probably put off much of the velocity gains to natural growth. While this has some merit concerning long toss, where reports of gains come over longer periods of time, it just doesn't work for weighted ball gains. Every documented study concerning this deals with velocity gains over a very short period of time - usually no more than three months. Over such a short period of time, natural growth cannot be a factor. Additionally, this is an area where it is possible to separate out the numbers as they apply to younger players. One has to look no farther than Kyle Boddy's work in Washington to see a pattern of fully physically developed pitchers experiencing remarkable velocity gains over a relatively short period of time. Such developments couldn't possibly be the result of natural growth in subjects of this classification.
An anecdotal story of a single pitcher who needed surgery a year after using weighted balls is not very useful to the conversation. However, a long term comparison of injury rates among pitchers who use weighted ball programs and pitchers who don't would be useful. Of course, the conclusions of any such story would have to take two competing notions into account; 1) the idea that increased velocity inherently increases risk factors and 2) the idea that weighted ball work can actually increase the strength the smaller muscle groups surrounding the elbow, therefore allowing it to withstand greater stress factors. So, for example, if you saw increased velocity in our weighted ball subjects, but similar injury rates, you could certainly conclude that it has substantial positive effect. The same conclusion could be reached if you saw no increase in velocity gain rates of change, but substantially lower injury rates in weighted ball pitchers. However, if you saw only slight changes in increased velocity and substantially greater injury rates in weighted ball pitchers, you could conclude the opposite.
edit: Another misconception is that weighted balls as a general concept are a new untested training method and that the old timers didn't need them. In reality, weighted balls have been around for more than a hundred years. IN the old days, pitchers would soak balls in water to weight them down for throwing "programs."
I believe you are validating what I am saying, listing individuals who use weighted balls as their individual preference and not the Organizations embracing the weighted ball as the sole source of increasing velocity. As you noted that this idea has been around for years also supports what i am trying to impart. As for Chapman you can youtube his mechanics as to why he can throw 105mph, not because of the weighted balls, but his hip to shoulder separation is BETTER than most elite pitchers and having his size is bonus as well. My assumption is, if he does use the weighted balls during bullpen session or warmup, this would stretch the hip/shoulder separation or even strength it, without undue stress of lifting heavy weights for the upper body rotation.
I agree that there is a place for weighted balls in a workout, but should not be touted as the "Main" source to increase velocity, in my opinion. In a 3 month period of "workout" program, you are in essence strength something and in any workout program it does take 3 months to see results. I know that if you put a load on anything continuously there will be some results, but why are we overloading the arm to the extreme when most of the power comes from the leg. When we overload something continuously there will be consequences.
Like you on this board I have read weighted ball research papers, during one of these programs an individual hurt his arm, and this was conducted by professionals as well.
Wasn't the Tampa Bay article done by professionals for the professional who competes at the very top? I am not sure how we can ignore it completely.
First, can you come the article you're talking about. I'd like to read it. I also wanted to mention that the Indians implement a wb program for their minor league pitchers. To address a few other things. You bring up a good point that lower body is a major component in high velocity throwing. Your question, though, is based on a common misconception as to what the goals of a weighted ball program are.
It's not about strengthening the arm for the purpose of muscling up a pitch. The basis can best be addressed in terms of proprioception. Your arm will only move as fast as you have trained it to go and only as fast as it can handle. When we talk about muscle memory, it is not exactly what it sounds like. A combination of muscles and capsules in the joints internally "learn" and "remember" patterns of joint movement. It is why a baby has to learn to walk. It is why most people cant thriw the same with their off hand. Now to apply it to pitching.
Research on cadavers has shown that the human ucl,on its own, can only take a force about equal to that applied by an 86mph fastball. However, the musclea surrounding it allow for greater forces. As these forces are applied, the joints "allow" fastwr movement whuch is then engrained into arm action. So, heavy balls build the muscles around the ucl, allowong it to handle a faster movement, and then light balls sort of "trick" the arm into moving faster. So, it is not about simply adding muscle to the arm.
your analogy to lifting weights does not work here. Yes, it takes about three months to see strength improvement with a weight program, but that is because strength increase is how you are measurong gains. That is not how gains are measured with a WB program. We are measuring gains by mph, and thise gains come much quicker.
This is the article, http://www.tampabay.com/sports...ning-program/2279420
He gets surgery in 2015.
There was another article on this board, where they compare throwing 4oz ball vs 5oz ball, the stress on the arm was almost off the charts with 4oz ball compared to 5oz. So my assumption, if your body gets use to throwing 7, 8, 10oz balls, and then throttle down to 5oz regulation weight, I can pretty much guarantee there would be more stress, my opinion. I have also tried to throw a tennis ball after warming up with baseball, my shoulder felt like it was going to come out of the socket, I was throwing as hard as I would the baseball, generally I would like to be the test dummy before I introduce something to my son.
I am pretty sure any joints/tendons/muscle are very strong in a stabilized position and can hold more load, but trying to strength something while moving the part that you want to strength, I'm not so sure. I have lifted, I have played, at some level I do understand the body movement needed in sports.
You know my blog has a ton of actual data-collected information on this topic, right? Saying stuff like "Guarantee there would be more stress, my opinion" is a weird way to base scientific thought.
Kyle Boddy posted:You know my blog has a ton of actual data-collected information on this topic, right? Saying stuff like "Guarantee there would be more stress, my opinion" is a weird way to base scientific thought.
I am not a scientist and if you are I'm pretty sure you would be in the same camp as if you threw a heavier object there would be "more stress" on the same parts of the anatomy in action as the less weighted object being thrown. I don't need a scientist to tell me that, i can feel it on my own.
D6L posted:Kyle Boddy posted:You know my blog has a ton of actual data-collected information on this topic, right? Saying stuff like "Guarantee there would be more stress, my opinion" is a weird way to base scientific thought.
I am not a scientist and if you are I'm pretty sure you would be in the same camp as if you threw a heavier object there would be "more stress" on the same parts of the anatomy in action as the less weighted object being thrown. I don't need a scientist to tell me that, i can feel it on my own.
Well, the Earth looks flat to me. I don't care what scientists say.
Rob T posted:D6L posted:Kyle Boddy posted:You know my blog has a ton of actual data-collected information on this topic, right? Saying stuff like "Guarantee there would be more stress, my opinion" is a weird way to base scientific thought.
I am not a scientist and if you are I'm pretty sure you would be in the same camp as if you threw a heavier object there would be "more stress" on the same parts of the anatomy in action as the less weighted object being thrown. I don't need a scientist to tell me that, i can feel it on my own.
Well, the Earth looks flat to me. I don't care what scientists say.
BTW, it wasn't a scientists who discovered the earth was round.
D6L posted:Rob T posted:D6L posted:Kyle Boddy posted:You know my blog has a ton of actual data-collected information on this topic, right? Saying stuff like "Guarantee there would be more stress, my opinion" is a weird way to base scientific thought.
I am not a scientist and if you are I'm pretty sure you would be in the same camp as if you threw a heavier object there would be "more stress" on the same parts of the anatomy in action as the less weighted object being thrown. I don't need a scientist to tell me that, i can feel it on my own.
Well, the Earth looks flat to me. I don't care what scientists say.
BTW, it wasn't a scientists who discovered the earth was round.
Mathematicians creating theories from empirical evidence are applying science however you want to parse the phrase.
Much like guys who perform studies on how various implements impact the stresses on the arm.
Of course there are detractors who formulate opinion based on how things feel - just like there were detractors 2000 years ago who thought the Earth was flat because well - look it's flat.
Kyle Boddy posted:Since I work with a lot of pro ballplayers, I assure you, the vast majority are taking plenty of pills and doing a lot of things to manage pain throughout the season - position players and pitchers alike. Many pitch with a partial tear of their UCL.
A big misconception is that you tear your UCL and the team pays for an MRI and you get Tommy John within a week. Not so much. The team force feeds you drugs, gets a useless X-Ray, does manual tests that declare "soreness," put you on the shadow DL, jerk you around in rehab, and do everything they can to not MRI your arm and pay for surgery. That's how it really goes down in most minor league organizations. And that can take months.
What you see in the big leagues is not how it goes down for the rest of pro ball. Remember that.
What are the MiLB player's options when they feel that a 2nd opinion or additional testing (i.e. MRI versus just the x-ray) is warranted? Can they pay out of pocket for the MRI and have it read - with findings submitted to the organization? Or, once you set foot outside of "their" network you are on you own?
2017LHPscrewball posted:Kyle Boddy posted:Since I work with a lot of pro ballplayers, I assure you, the vast majority are taking plenty of pills and doing a lot of things to manage pain throughout the season - position players and pitchers alike. Many pitch with a partial tear of their UCL.
A big misconception is that you tear your UCL and the team pays for an MRI and you get Tommy John within a week. Not so much. The team force feeds you drugs, gets a useless X-Ray, does manual tests that declare "soreness," put you on the shadow DL, jerk you around in rehab, and do everything they can to not MRI your arm and pay for surgery. That's how it really goes down in most minor league organizations. And that can take months.
What you see in the big leagues is not how it goes down for the rest of pro ball. Remember that.
What are the MiLB player's options when they feel that a 2nd opinion or additional testing (i.e. MRI versus just the x-ray) is warranted? Can they pay out of pocket for the MRI and have it read - with findings submitted to the organization? Or, once you set foot outside of "their" network you are on you own?
I would really prefer some substance in discussion, again you lost me at scientist discovered the earth was flat.
D6L posted:2017LHPscrewball posted:Kyle Boddy posted:Since I work with a lot of pro ballplayers, I assure you, the vast majority are taking plenty of pills and doing a lot of things to manage pain throughout the season - position players and pitchers alike. Many pitch with a partial tear of their UCL.
A big misconception is that you tear your UCL and the team pays for an MRI and you get Tommy John within a week. Not so much. The team force feeds you drugs, gets a useless X-Ray, does manual tests that declare "soreness," put you on the shadow DL, jerk you around in rehab, and do everything they can to not MRI your arm and pay for surgery. That's how it really goes down in most minor league organizations. And that can take months.
What you see in the big leagues is not how it goes down for the rest of pro ball. Remember that.
What are the MiLB player's options when they feel that a 2nd opinion or additional testing (i.e. MRI versus just the x-ray) is warranted? Can they pay out of pocket for the MRI and have it read - with findings submitted to the organization? Or, once you set foot outside of "their" network you are on you own?
I would really prefer some substance in discussion, again you lost me at scientist discovered the earth was flat.
Substance in discussion was attempted by Kyle when he told you to go look at the evidence.
You responded with "I know what I feel".
Apparently my attempt at a simple analogy was lost on you.
Throwing 3/4 or 7/8 may feel natural, but I believe that's the problem. Mike Marshall's straight overhead mechanics look like they'd make your arm fly out of the socket, but his pitchers are healthy and can throw 95mph too. Cricket bowlers throw the same weighted (5oz) ball straight overhead with a running start, and I don't believe a single bowler has had TJ surgery. They also rarely have serious shoulder injuries aside from tendonitis which in baseball has been pretty much eradicated through band work.
Wow, it's been almost 2 years, since i participated in this post. My son (now 14) is still throwing and pitching, loves the mound and the pressure that brings with it. We worked out fall of 2016- and spring of 2017. On Feb-2017, per my earlier post added long toss twice a week, during month of Feb. At the end of last Oct. 2017 about the same time frame prior to shutting him down for the winter we clocked him, was clocked consistently 66-67 fastball and 56-57 change up.
He grew from 4' 10" and 80 pounds to now 5'6" and 105lbs, in 2 years.
This year we did not implement the long toss, but during the early spring I definitely noticed the ball moving faster, pounding the glove harder and the whizzing of the ball can be heard cutting through the air.
Yesterday, though we have one more game left, he will be shutdown from the mound, we visited our customary Pitching Pro and had him gunned again, now he is cruising 71-72 fastball and 61-62 change up.
One constant I can pull out between the 2 season is that he has pitched 50-60 innings each year. During 13-14 winter/early spring season we hardly did any core exercises or throwing unlike during 12-13
Sadly, one of his ex-teammates, who used weighted balls for his workout program had to be shutdown all of this year, to be perfectly honest, I was slight (father) jealous in the beginning that his teammate threw a tad harder, knowing they were using the weighted balls, but I am really really glad we did not implement weighted ball in our sons throwing program.
I don't know what it is, but he seems to have that certain moxy when he gets on the mound, he controls the situation and not the situation control him. When he doesn't start, he is brought in to stop the bleeding, get the starter out of a jam, bases loaded and game on the line situations.
Thanks...
D6L:
1. The weighted ball program that colleges do isn't designed for a 12 year old.
2. you can expect a 3-5mph gain from 12-14, easily, due to growth.
3. late fall/ early Winter is the time to work out HARD, and not throw a ball.
4. Long toss is what is recommended by most professionals. Possibly a weighted ball program later down the line, but all ages would improve with long toss.
5. I would guess over 25% of the kids get shut down from age 12-15. Too much throwing, plus growth plate issues....I saw a LOT of kids have to shut down and some that didn't but should have! Those are super tender years....throw with extra care.
Great news, thanks for the update.
D6L posted:Wow, it's been almost 2 years, since i participated in this post. My son (now 14) is still throwing and pitching, loves the mound and the pressure that brings with it. We worked out fall of 2016- and spring of 2017. On Feb-2017, per my earlier post added long toss twice a week, during month of Feb. At the end of last Oct. 2017 about the same time frame prior to shutting him down for the winter we clocked him, was clocked consistently 66-67 fastball and 56-57 change up.
He grew from 4' 10" and 80 pounds to now 5'6" and 105lbs, in 2 years.
This year we did not implement the long toss, but during the early spring I definitely noticed the ball moving faster, pounding the glove harder and the whizzing of the ball can be heard cutting through the air.
Yesterday, though we have one more game left, he will be shutdown from the mound, we visited our customary Pitching Pro and had him gunned again, now he is cruising 71-72 fastball and 61-62 change up.
One constant I can pull out between the 2 season is that he has pitched 50-60 innings each year. During 13-14 winter/early spring season we hardly did any core exercises or throwing unlike during 12-13
Sadly, one of his ex-teammates, who used weighted balls for his workout program had to be shutdown all of this year, to be perfectly honest, I was slight (father) jealous in the beginning that his teammate threw a tad harder, knowing they were using the weighted balls, but I am really really glad we did not implement weighted ball in our sons throwing program.
I don't know what it is, but he seems to have that certain moxy when he gets on the mound, he controls the situation and not the situation control him. When he doesn't start, he is brought in to stop the bleeding, get the starter out of a jam, bases loaded and game on the line situations.
Thanks...
If he has the hyperflexibilty of a high velocity thrower, with todays technology he will be able to learn mechanics that will enable him to increase his velocity beyond what his joints can handle. Don't let him throw hard (85+?) until you get a doctor to confirm that he is full grown and he has spent a couple years weight training to strengthen his connective tissue and stabilizing muscles. It is one of the worst feelings in the world to know that you hurt your son because you and/or him got caught up in the velocity quest before he had matured.
I thought my son was full grown as a senior in high school at 6'2'' 180. He worked on high velo mechanics and got into the low 90's, tore his UCL, and while recovering grew another inch and put on 25 pounds of muscle. According to his doctors he will be filling out for at least another couple years. Kids mature at different rates, know yours. You already have a start by tracking his growth changes.
I think there is no evidence that weighted balls are dangerous but I would also be wary about pushing velo too hard before kids are at least 13-14.
Some plyo work for young kids is ok but I'm pretty sure Kyle did not create his program to push maximum velo on 11 year old old kids. If some parents use it that way it is not his fault.
D6L posted:Wow, it's been almost 2 years, since i participated in this post. My son (now 14) is still throwing and pitching, loves the mound and the pressure that brings with it. We worked out fall of 2016- and spring of 2017. On Feb-2017, per my earlier post added long toss twice a week, during month of Feb. At the end of last Oct. 2017 about the same time frame prior to shutting him down for the winter we clocked him, was clocked consistently 66-67 fastball and 56-57 change up.
He grew from 4' 10" and 80 pounds to now 5'6" and 105lbs, in 2 years.
This year we did not implement the long toss, but during the early spring I definitely noticed the ball moving faster, pounding the glove harder and the whizzing of the ball can be heard cutting through the air.
Yesterday, though we have one more game left, he will be shutdown from the mound, we visited our customary Pitching Pro and had him gunned again, now he is cruising 71-72 fastball and 61-62 change up.
One constant I can pull out between the 2 season is that he has pitched 50-60 innings each year. During 13-14 winter/early spring season we hardly did any core exercises or throwing unlike during 12-13
Sadly, one of his ex-teammates, who used weighted balls for his workout program had to be shutdown all of this year, to be perfectly honest, I was slight (father) jealous in the beginning that his teammate threw a tad harder, knowing they were using the weighted balls, but I am really really glad we did not implement weighted ball in our sons throwing program.
I don't know what it is, but he seems to have that certain moxy when he gets on the mound, he controls the situation and not the situation control him. When he doesn't start, he is brought in to stop the bleeding, get the starter out of a jam, bases loaded and game on the line situations.
Thanks...
Just like to update, he is now 5'9" and 123lbs, we went to our customary tryout for his mid level club team. He was cruising at 76-77 on his fast ball and -10 - -12 on his off speed. Clocked 7.07 in the 60.
This year we did little of weight lifting, squats and dead lift, not more than 100lbs, little bit of plyometrics, a little long toss and cardio.
Reinold has a limited study out, I read if for the first time some months ago. The data certainly gave me pause about doing any weighted ball program with either of my boys.
22and25 posted:Reinold has a limited study out, I read if for the first time some months ago. The data certainly gave me pause about doing any weighted ball program with either of my boys.
Yeah...the term "limited" doesn't begin to do the flaws in this study justice. He had them run and gun with TWO POUND balls. That's a ridiculous program that no one would use outside of this ridiculous case study. In fact, the use of such weights in this manner all but guaranteed injury and was, in my opinion, negligent.
roothog66 posted:22and25 posted:Reinold has a limited study out, I read if for the first time some months ago. The data certainly gave me pause about doing any weighted ball program with either of my boys.
Yeah...the term "limited" doesn't begin to do the flaws in this study justice. He had them run and gun with TWO POUND balls. That's a ridiculous program that no one would use outside of this ridiculous case study. In fact, the use of such weights in this manner all but guaranteed injury and was, in my opinion, negligent.
That does seem extreme to say the least. What is the max ball weight for run and gun throws in a typical program?
As to the rest of the findings, do you think the 2lb ball throws invalidates the inferences made as to the mechanism of velo gains with such a program?
No questioning your assertions, just genuinely trying to learn as I have no prior exposure to the programs that are out there other than some of the social media cat fights that seem to crop up around the subject.
22and25 posted:roothog66 posted:22and25 posted:Reinold has a limited study out, I read if for the first time some months ago. The data certainly gave me pause about doing any weighted ball program with either of my boys.
Yeah...the term "limited" doesn't begin to do the flaws in this study justice. He had them run and gun with TWO POUND balls. That's a ridiculous program that no one would use outside of this ridiculous case study. In fact, the use of such weights in this manner all but guaranteed injury and was, in my opinion, negligent.
That does seem extreme to say the least. What is the max ball weight for run and gun throws in a typical program?
As to the rest of the findings, do you think the 2lb ball throws invalidates the inferences made as to the mechanism of velo gains with such a program?
No questioning your assertions, just genuinely trying to learn as I have no prior exposure to the programs that are out there other than some of the social media cat fights that seem to crop up around the subject.
For that, and other reasons, I think it does. There was no documentation of what other work was done outside of the wb program and no standard description of warm ups in the program. Just as important to me, they were thrown into a full blown program with no "ramp up" period. I'm sure there are a few out there who implement such ridiculous programs, but none that carry any legitimacy. As to weight...most of the ones I have dealt with max out with 8 ozs top. I, and others will actually have pitchers throw 9 or 11 oz wb's but not at full force in a RNG situation and some drills will use up to 2lb and 4 lb plyo balls in limited arm action drills but not actually "thrown" and certainly not in a RNG. WB programs are only a piece of an overall pitching program.
Trust Root on this one. I am a big fan of Reinold but that study was a joke! Weighted ball and max intent training are safe when used appropriately. Go to Driveline website and spend as much time as possible reading the blog and pitching research page. Educate yourself before you use weighted ball training with anyone. Those who end up having issues are using weighted balls incorrectly as was the case in this study.
I wonder if the run and gun ball weight may be a typo? My son is working with a group now (Optimum Athletes-Sacramento) returning to competition this fall (from TJ surgery). Max ball weight for run and gun is 6-7 oz. Plyos go heavier. I played catch with him the last couple weeks and noticed a shorter arm action, more consistency, and easier velocity. I didn't put a gun on him because he is not up to full effort yet,
My son studies pitching and his impression is that he is learning to reduce the peak stress points in the chain, which allows him to use more of everything else. I doubt you could describe everything going on verbally, at least not to a kid. The weighted balls are what we call a no-teach in my line of coaching; the balls do the teaching.
A very important point is the increase in shoulder injuries caused by the increased external rotation (and weak rotator cuffs). A nice thick layer of corded steel around the rotator cuff is necessary, and that takes years of training.
LHP's Roady posted:
I wonder if the run and gun ball weight may be a typo? My son is working with a group now (Optimum Athletes-Sacramento) returning to competition this fall (from TJ surgery). Max ball weight for run and gun is 6-7 oz. Plyos go heavier. I played catch with him the last couple weeks and noticed a shorter arm action, more consistency, and easier velocity. I didn't put a gun on him because he is not up to full effort yet,
My son studies pitching and his impression is that he is learning to reduce the peak stress points in the chain, which allows him to use more of everything else. I doubt you could describe everything going on verbally, at least not to a kid. The weighted balls are what we call a no-teach in my line of coaching; the balls do the teaching.A very important point is the increase in shoulder injuries caused by the increased external rotation (and weak rotator cuffs). A nice thick layer of corded steel around the rotator cuff is necessary, and that takes years of training.
Nope. Definitely NOT a typo. Here's a link to the whole paper:
https://journals.sagepub.com/e...3sHNAEU8dYKawIJ/full
I've also had contact with Reinold concerning this and he claims it's a standard program. Note that they also threw this 3x per week. The program I use and most of the others will have ONE velocity throwing day like this a week.
Now, I'll admit that I had a lot of bad things to say about Mike two or three years ago when this study first came out and may have even attacked him personally concerning his years with the Red Sox and the problems there. It took him awhile to find someone to publish it - it was turned down by his first choices, mainly due to its severe limitations. However, outside of this, Reinold has a lot to offer and I've come to appreciate his contributions more than I did during my somewhat well-known feud with Brent Pourciau, who hyped this study to the hilt.
I don't think weighted balls cause injury but I do think the pitching s&c and development coaches do pat each other a little too much on the back. Everyone talks about how great pitching dev has become and how it is ahead of hitting and in some regards this is probably true but pitching dev has done absolutely nothing in the injury prevention department.
I mean there are tons of theories (get strong, do bands, do long toss, take time off, get flexible) but really nothing has worked yet.
Now I don't think it got worse than 20 years ago but no great progress either, injury rates still high.
Pitching dev has improved velo and pitch design but the next step absolutely must be a significant reduction of injury rates as this would be a huge competetive advantage.
Imo the pitching dev guys don't hold themselves accountable enough for injuries which are accepted as part of the process.
Don't get me wrong it is better to properly lift and condition yourself rather than getting fat in the off season like pitchers 30 years ago but regarding health the progress isn't great.
Dominik85 posted:I don't think weighted balls cause injury but I do think the pitching s&c and development coaches do pat each other a little too much on the back. Everyone talks about how great pitching dev has become and how it is ahead of hitting and in some regards this is probably true but pitching dev has done absolutely nothing in the injury prevention department.
I mean there are tons of theories (get strong, do bands, do long toss, take time off, get flexible) but really nothing has worked yet.
Now I don't think it got worse than 20 years ago but no great progress either, injury rates still high.
Pitching dev has improved velo and pitch design but the next step absolutely must be a significant reduction of injury rates as this would be a huge competetive advantage.
Imo the pitching dev guys don't hold themselves accountable enough for injuries which are accepted as part of the process.
Don't get me wrong it is better to properly lift and condition yourself rather than getting fat in the off season like pitchers 30 years ago but regarding health the progress isn't great.
1) Hitting development is quickly catching up.
2) I don't think you can compare injury rates today from 20 years ago and make a rational assessment of whether things are better or worse simply because injuries are treated far differently and reported differently. I suspect things may actually be a lot better on that front because we have an improved awareness in detecting and treating injuries to pitchers. Whereas 20 years ago we may have abused pitchers and then tried to "make do" with alternative treatments as long as possible to keep a pitcher on the mound, I believe today we are quicker to shut them down and correct the problems as soon as they arise, by surgery or otherwise. I do think these factors have stabilized in the past 10-12 years and comparisons in that time frame are reliable.
3) I don't know how much improvement we can expect in injury rates unless we totally change the game. Clearly, limiting pitch counts has had, at best, a minor effect. The act of throwing a baseball at high stress over long periods of time simply is injurious - at some point you limit that as much as you can and can go no further.
roothog66 posted:LHP's Roady posted:
I wonder if the run and gun ball weight may be a typo? My son is working with a group now (Optimum Athletes-Sacramento) returning to competition this fall (from TJ surgery). Max ball weight for run and gun is 6-7 oz. Plyos go heavier. I played catch with him the last couple weeks and noticed a shorter arm action, more consistency, and easier velocity. I didn't put a gun on him because he is not up to full effort yet,
My son studies pitching and his impression is that he is learning to reduce the peak stress points in the chain, which allows him to use more of everything else. I doubt you could describe everything going on verbally, at least not to a kid. The weighted balls are what we call a no-teach in my line of coaching; the balls do the teaching.A very important point is the increase in shoulder injuries caused by the increased external rotation (and weak rotator cuffs). A nice thick layer of corded steel around the rotator cuff is necessary, and that takes years of training.
Nope. Definitely NOT a typo. Here's a link to the whole paper:
https://journals.sagepub.com/e...3sHNAEU8dYKawIJ/full
I've also had contact with Reinold concerning this and he claims it's a standard program. Note that they also threw this 3x per week. The program I use and most of the others will have ONE velocity throwing day like this a week.
Now, I'll admit that I had a lot of bad things to say about Mike two or three years ago when this study first came out and may have even attacked him personally concerning his years with the Red Sox and the problems there. It took him awhile to find someone to publish it - it was turned down by his first choices, mainly due to its severe limitations. However, outside of this, Reinold has a lot to offer and I've come to appreciate his contributions more than I did during my somewhat well-known feud with Brent Pourciau, who hyped this study to the hilt.
He hyped this study because right before this study came out Reinold had him at his conference up in MA to present. At that conference Reinold talked about the study, but also did say he didn't think weighted balls were bad, they were just another tool. No one had seen the study at that point.
The weighted ball program my son has used had nowhere close to that volume. It has the 1 velo day like you describe, and the majority of the program is dedicated to recovery.
nycdad posted:roothog66 posted:LHP's Roady posted:
I wonder if the run and gun ball weight may be a typo? My son is working with a group now (Optimum Athletes-Sacramento) returning to competition this fall (from TJ surgery). Max ball weight for run and gun is 6-7 oz. Plyos go heavier. I played catch with him the last couple weeks and noticed a shorter arm action, more consistency, and easier velocity. I didn't put a gun on him because he is not up to full effort yet,
My son studies pitching and his impression is that he is learning to reduce the peak stress points in the chain, which allows him to use more of everything else. I doubt you could describe everything going on verbally, at least not to a kid. The weighted balls are what we call a no-teach in my line of coaching; the balls do the teaching.A very important point is the increase in shoulder injuries caused by the increased external rotation (and weak rotator cuffs). A nice thick layer of corded steel around the rotator cuff is necessary, and that takes years of training.
Nope. Definitely NOT a typo. Here's a link to the whole paper:
https://journals.sagepub.com/e...3sHNAEU8dYKawIJ/full
I've also had contact with Reinold concerning this and he claims it's a standard program. Note that they also threw this 3x per week. The program I use and most of the others will have ONE velocity throwing day like this a week.
Now, I'll admit that I had a lot of bad things to say about Mike two or three years ago when this study first came out and may have even attacked him personally concerning his years with the Red Sox and the problems there. It took him awhile to find someone to publish it - it was turned down by his first choices, mainly due to its severe limitations. However, outside of this, Reinold has a lot to offer and I've come to appreciate his contributions more than I did during my somewhat well-known feud with Brent Pourciau, who hyped this study to the hilt.
He hyped this study because right before this study came out Reinold had him at his conference up in MA to present. At that conference Reinold talked about the study, but also did say he didn't think weighted balls were bad, they were just another tool. No one had seen the study at that point.
The weighted ball program my son has used had nowhere close to that volume. It has the 1 velo day like you describe, and the majority of the program is dedicated to recovery.
His study had some validity as to many of the measurements he recorded. However, trying to stretch that into applying to anything useful in the area of injuries was useless. He originally submitted it to a prestigious journal that eventually wouldn't publish because of the limits of his study. If someone really wanted to do such a study they should include a vast array of different wb programs and study it with a large sample size. Here, he had, I think 38 subjects in a particular program. I believe the most he could legitimately claim was that this particular program which included no ramp up and velocity throwing with balls up to 2lb 3x per week carries a large injury risk, to which I would say "duh."
The bottom line is, like it or not, a LOT of colleges are using at least part of the program at this point and more are adding it.
Yes we don't really know if it got better or worse. I do think training got better but I still hate that so many pitching prospects flame out.
I only work with hitters so i don't know a lot about this but mlb player dev can't be happy with their p prospects dropping like flies.
Now the question is if healthy pitching at 95 is possible at all of course.
Pitching prospects have been flaming out since the nineteenth century, we just didn't know their names like we do today.
roothog66 posted:Pitching prospects have been flaming out since the nineteenth century, we just didn't know their names like we do today.
Of course this always happened. But shouldn't the goal to reduce that? The standard for pitching s&c shouldn't be "not worse than 30 years ago" but a lot better as mlb loses like half a billion per year paying injured pitchers.
Of course. But, why do you assume we haven't reduced injuries in the past 30 years? If you're just talking about the MLB, there is reason to believe we have. Games lost by pitchers on the dl is actually down a lot from the 80's. Mainly because treatment has greatly shortened time on the dl. When you take into account there are probably a lot of injuries that did NOT result in dl time 30 years ago (it was common to pitch with injuries until you just couldn't do it anymore and then retire) I think it's a safe assumption things are a LOT better. We'll never know for sure because the data just isn't there.
Going beyond just the MLB, however, I think you probably, because of advances in injury treatment and conditioning, see a lot of big time arms reach the majors or at least some level of pro ball that, in the days when coaches would ride an arm for as many pitches as they could get out of a kid, would have "flamed out" before ever getting the chance to play pro ball.
Son uses a modified weighted ball program at FBR mainly for muscle variation training. He get his layback, ROM, etc. mostly from Active Isolated Stretching sessions with Aaron Mattes of Stretching USA.
@D6L posted:Just like to update, he is now 5'9" and 123lbs, we went to our customary tryout for his mid level club team. He was cruising at 76-77 on his fast ball and -10 - -12 on his off speed. Clocked 7.07 in the 60.
This year we did little of weight lifting, squats and dead lift, not more than 100lbs, little bit of plyometrics, a little long toss and cardio.
He is 5'11 and half, almost 6', weighs 135!!! Doctors says he had a late growth spurt and he may grow another 2-3, we will see. But he is throwing 78-83, consistently in the 80s, one tryout he was clocked 84, I didn't see it so. We are trying to gain weight. He has try this and that on his own. If anyone has some ideas, I would love to hear.
Update a year later,
Son 2022, is past 6', close to 6'1" and still growing, weighs 150 on a good day, velocity is sitting around 83 84. Now he is getting noticed, received genuine emails and not spam, not asking for money for camps, lol and phone conference calls with DIII head coaches. If his projection is consistent from all of his years, he should be throwing 86-88 by the end of this year. Love to add some weight on his body though.
Mass=gas (to an extent). Help him understand that gaining mass is part of the job and just as important as working out. Find out his daily calorie intake and add a couple thousand calories. Sneak in olive oil and other good fats wherever you can (rice, oatmeal milkshakes, etc.). It sounds like he may not be past his pubertal growth spurt so he may still grow quite a bit and add a good chunk of velocity. Feed him.
@D6L posted:Update a year later,
Son 2022, is past 6', close to 6'1" and still growing, weighs 150 on a good day, velocity is sitting around 83 84. Now he is getting noticed, received genuine emails and not spam, not asking for money for camps, lol and phone conference calls with DIII head coaches. If his projection is consistent from all of his years, he should be throwing 86-88 by the end of this year. Love to add some weight on his body though.
Our sons sound like twins.
Pls don't let TPM comment on "weighted balls"!
This has been a great journey/journal since we started posting here on this site. Something I can look back on and reminiscence the past. Son still 6'1" and little less than 150lbs on a good eating day, very very athletic, at 5'10 he could dunk a basketball, just came back from 18U WWBA World Championships in Jupiter FL. I was really humbled with all the tremendous talent gathered in one area, and it's an experience our son will enjoy and remember for rest of his life. One thing my son said to me "i belong here" still rings.
End of August there were rumors from D3 college scouts that he touched 88, in the fall there were no rumors, our son was consistently hitting 87-88 and now touching 89 on many occasions. We are hopeful after good winter workout we can pass 90. His increase in velo has passed my expectations for his year.
We have never used weighted balls for this journey, if there was a week of lull, we would use long toss to maintain strength and the long toss was completely on his own discretion, continuously preaching, listen to his arm.
We have a lot of d3 schools calling, but his goal has been to go to d1, we have given him information of d3 vs d1 and he understands, he has been a late bloomer.
@D6L posted:This has been a great journey/journal since we started posting here on this site. Something I can look back on and reminiscence the past. Son still 6'1" and little less than 150lbs on a good eating day, very very athletic, at 5'10 he could dunk a basketball, just came back from 18U WWBA World Championships in Jupiter FL. I was really humbled with all the tremendous talent gathered in one area, and it's an experience our son will enjoy and remember for rest of his life. One thing my son said to me "i belong here" still rings.
End of August there were rumors from D3 college scouts that he touched 88, in the fall there were no rumors, our son was consistently hitting 87-88 and now touching 89 on many occasions. We are hopeful after good winter workout we can pass 90. His increase in velo has passed my expectations for his year.
We have never used weighted balls for this journey, if there was a week of lull, we would use long toss to maintain strength and the long toss was completely on his own discretion, continuously preaching, listen to his arm.
We have a lot of d3 schools calling, but his goal has been to go to d1, we have given him information of d3 vs d1 and he understands, he has been a late bloomer.
He has to really think hard about the D1 v D3 logic, particularly in this current era. I've posted this a few times in the past year, but a very clear impact from Covid was essentially the reverberation down the food chain for talent. Since so many kids took 5th years, incoming 20/21 Freshman who wanted a better chance at playing time before their Junior years opted to drop down a level or two to Juco, D2 and D3. Thus the pool for D3 is not the same as it was a few years ago. It's gotten FAR more competitive. I'd take that into consideration, because while the allure of big time D1 baseball is tough to ignore, the reality is *actually* playing is pretty appealing when you've made the full time commitment to college baseball. Go where you're loved, where you love, and where you can play. Don't get overly caught up in labels.
@Wechson posted:He has to really think hard about the D1 v D3 logic, particularly in this current era. I've posted this a few times in the past year, but a very clear impact from Covid was essentially the reverberation down the food chain for talent. Since so many kids took 5th years, incoming 20/21 Freshman who wanted a better chance at playing time before their Junior years opted to drop down a level or two to Juco, D2 and D3. Thus the pool for D3 is not the same as it was a few years ago. It's gotten FAR more competitive. I'd take that into consideration, because while the allure of big time D1 baseball is tough to ignore, the reality is *actually* playing is pretty appealing when you've made the full time commitment to college baseball. Go where you're loved, where you love, and where you can play. Don't get overly caught up in labels.
Just to add my tiny $.02 to this comment - I am by far NO recruiting expert, but my 2024 is beginning this whole crazy process! He is a RHP and is highly projectable (per his coaches), but he still has a lot of room for growth and development. As he says, "I'm still a rough project that needs several drafts before the final paper gets turned in." Off track - sorry - He is being looked at by schools of ALL levels. He of course was all starry eyed at the very beginning and wanted only to entertain the top D1 school idea, but, from the knowledge I have learned here on this board, I've been able to open his eyes to the "Go where you are loved, where you love and where you can play" mentality.
For weeks now I've showed him roster after roster of many, many schools on his list that are filled with JUCO kids and transfer kids from high level D1 schools. There are by far more JUCO transfers, other "high level" school transfers and sophomores, juniors and seniors on these rosters then freshman. He finally understands how recruiting has changed, especially, post Covid.
So, it is VERY important for kids to grasp this and more so, embrace this thought process. I'm seeing it with my own two eyes right now!
It's also really important to know (that especially now), coaches have over recruited at the D1 level. The bigger rosters allowed them to do that. I went to a practice last week and heard several parents saying things like, "If we are still here after December..." Last year, no roster limit, this year 40. We currently have 50. 10 are going to have to leave at Christmas or be redshirted. There are a couple of guys that transferred in and I'm sure are starry eyed, that are just not going to make it. It is a tough, tough situation right now. I haven't heard if they are going back to normal rosters next year, but even with 40 on the roster this year, only 27 will travel, so almost half the current team will not play or will be cut.
On the topic of getting stronger. It has a huge effect on Velo/power. Most of my son's class (pitchers) came in touching 94, we now have 2 hitting 99. And several more hitting 96-97. They have a greatStrength coach. Most have gained at least 10-15 lbs last year. Our freshman of the year gained 20lbs. It makes a difference.
@Wechson posted:Since so many kids took 5th years, incoming 20/21 Freshman who wanted a better chance at playing time before their Junior years opted to drop down a level or two to Juco, D2 and D3.
It's even worse than that. NJCAA granted a blanket waiver for the 2020-21 year, as well as 2019-20. I'm not clear on all the details, but there are lots of juco transfers who are listed as freshmen on current D1 rosters who graduated high school in 2019. They didn't play many games in 2019-20, but could have played an entire season in 2020-21. So, many of those "kids" will still be D1 eligible in 2024-25... muscling out kids who are graduating from high school in 2024. Crazy.
@BaseballMOM05 posted:Just to add my tiny $.02 to this comment - I am by far NO recruiting expert, but my 2024 is beginning this whole crazy process! He is a RHP and is highly projectable (per his coaches), but he still has a lot of room for growth and development. As he says, "I'm still a rough project that needs several drafts before the final paper gets turned in." Off track - sorry - He is being looked at by schools of ALL levels. He of course was all starry eyed at the very beginning and wanted only to entertain the top D1 school idea, but, from the knowledge I have learned here on this board, I've been able to open his eyes to the "Go where you are loved, where you love and where you can play" mentality.
For weeks now I've showed him roster after roster of many, many schools on his list that are filled with JUCO kids and transfer kids from high level D1 schools. There are by far more JUCO transfers, other "high level" school transfers and sophomores, juniors and seniors on these rosters then freshman. He finally understands how recruiting has changed, especially, post Covid.
So, it is VERY important for kids to grasp this and more so, embrace this thought process. I'm seeing it with my own two eyes right now!
@baseballmom05, etal:
This is an extremely insightful post, the only thing I would add that it is a lot more fun to win than lose, so drop the "D1" aspirations and go "where you are loved" as well as go "where there is a winning tradition" and "go where you will have fun" as it is a lot more fun to win at Dx level then to lose consistently at the D1 level.
I would also add "go where you will contribute" which in the end is the most important...other than "go where you can get a great education" as in the end this the most important.
Best of luck!
@D6L posted:This has been a great journey/journal since we started posting here on this site. Something I can look back on and reminiscence the past. Son still 6'1" and little less than 150lbs on a good eating day, very very athletic, at 5'10 he could dunk a basketball, just came back from 18U WWBA World Championships in Jupiter FL. I was really humbled with all the tremendous talent gathered in one area, and it's an experience our son will enjoy and remember for rest of his life. One thing my son said to me "i belong here" still rings.
End of August there were rumors from D3 college scouts that he touched 88, in the fall there were no rumors, our son was consistently hitting 87-88 and now touching 89 on many occasions. We are hopeful after good winter workout we can pass 90. His increase in velo has passed my expectations for his year.
We have never used weighted balls for this journey, if there was a week of lull, we would use long toss to maintain strength and the long toss was completely on his own discretion, continuously preaching, listen to his arm.
We have a lot of d3 schools calling, but his goal has been to go to d1, we have given him information of d3 vs d1 and he understands, he has been a late bloomer.
Was your son strength training? If he's just starting and thinks he is going to walk into a D1 program and in the fall and survive he's going to be shocked. There was probably a time when "just wait til he gets on campus and starts lifting" was a thing. My son is at a low level D1 and has kids there benching 240-265 for reps.
Whoomp there it is! Son hit 90 consistently in the bullpen session today. Gained about 7-9lbs over the winter and definitely shows. All being equal he should be around 92 by the summer. Proud Proud of him!
Congrats! What year is he?
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Congrats! What year is he?
2022
@nycdad posted:Was your son strength training? If he's just starting and thinks he is going to walk into a D1 program and in the fall and survive he's going to be shocked. There was probably a time when "just wait til he gets on campus and starts lifting" was a thing. My son is at a low level D1 and has kids there benching 240-265 for reps.
No reason to bench 245, I created a hybrid workout that would fit his body and position type (plays up the middle as well), Squat was his heavy workout, did not want him to do dead lift as this would put tremendous pressure on his elbow.
@D6L posted:No reason to bench 245, I created a hybrid workout that would fit his body and position type (plays up the middle as well), Squat was his heavy workout, did not want him to do dead lift as this would put tremendous pressure on his elbow.
Different strokes for different folks. Some routines work better than others. There is no single bad exercise.
@D6L posted:2022
Is he re-classing or still going through the recruiting process as a 2022?
@nycdad posted:Different strokes for different folks. Some routines work better than others. There is no single bad exercise.
I would take issue with your last sentence. I have been told by top in their field orthos that (for baseball players) all olympic lifts should be avoided. They are high risk - low reward. There are better ways to build strength that are less likely to cause injury.
@adbono posted:I would take issue with your last sentence. I have been told by top in their field orthos that (for baseball players) all olympic lifts should be avoided. They are high risk - low reward. There are better ways to build strength that are less likely to cause injury.
I would tend to agree about olympic lifts, the whole risk vs. reward thing. My above response was a little flippant. I wrote it with bench press in mind.
@adbono posted:I would take issue with your last sentence. I have been told by top in their field orthos that (for baseball players) all olympic lifts should be avoided. They are high risk - low reward. There are better ways to build strength that are less likely to cause injury.
And to agree with adbono statement from experience, I watched an individual perform dead lift maxing out and proceeded to max out on velo, after throwing he felt pain in his arm and needed surgery on his throwing elbow. I get it that this should not be done immediately after lifting, but we are dealing with kids, without education and supervision they will do these things.
I think one thing parents and coaches forget that the kids are growing and this growth is almost never mentioned when the players velo increases.
@nycdad posted:Is he re-classing or still going through the recruiting process as a 2022?
If it is meant to be for college and beyond it is meant to be, I don't see a reason for our son to reclass.
Son 6'1 and sitting 152lbs. As we turned the next chapter, here are my thoughts and experience; I have some engineering back ground and played sports in HS.
Pitched in his last summer/HS game with his teammates, in his last game which was the playoffs, he struck out 17 batters, 7ip, and 98 pitches thrown, 3 pitch kid (fastball, curve and change)cruising 88-90 the whole game, touched 91 and 92, the 98th pitch was clocked at 89mph with pocket radar. Was recruited mostly by D3s, an offer from D2 and few D1 interests, almost all local D3 wanted him to visit their facility, got a full ride to a JUCO, but he turned that down, sigh. On his collegiate team he pitched 27ip, 24k with 2.9 ERA.
At the end of the day, and maybe due to his lack of academic preparedness, he decided on a local D3 school.
Our journey was to get to 90mph, we were hoping that baseball would help him to get into a college, instead baseball got him into a college.
We did not use weighted balls, we lifted weights for 3 months in his junior year only thinking he stopped growing but once we found out his growth plate was still open, we stopped the lifting. When we did lift, we did squat as our heavy leg work out, mostly light free weights for the upper body and plyometric for developing the quick muscles, and all this could be found on youtube.
One main thing we focused on this journey was hip-shoulder separation throughout the years and even still. Every year except for one when he was relegated to the OF only, 12u and was run by daddy ball he gained 3+ mph on his velo. He pitched in a game once a week and threw more than 50+ pitches in all of his outings after 12u. If we knew he was to be idled for more than a week, we added a long toss session, for that week. There was a correlation between growth (height/weight) with increased in his velo and in his Junior year because of the weight lifting his velo increased by more than 5+mph. There was no magical workout, instructor that assist him to increase in his velo. At 13u, the topvelocity guy (Brent) came out to our area, spent $599 for the camp and all he said to me was, keep doing what he is doing, biggest waste of my money!
In ten years our son never complained about his arm, in 98% of games we made sure that he wasn't being abused, only 3 games we recall, when we knew it was the last time he will be pitching for the season did we allow him to throw more.
On this forum, there has been a wealth of experience, knowledge and common sense. Thank you.
6'1" 152lb.....Your son needs a steak and milkshake, not weighted balls ;-)
So cool to see your son's journey through this thread! Congrats to you and your boy @D6L! You should be proud.
Did he long toss year round? Take regular time off from throwing in the off-season? Play any other sports, etc?
@Zanzibar posted:So cool to see your son's journey through this thread! Congrats to you and your boy @D6L! You should be proud.
Did he long toss year round? Take regular time off from throwing in the off-season? Play any other sports, etc?
We used long toss as a tool and not specifically for increasing velocity, we did not long toss year round, we used long toss ONLY when he was being idled for more than 10 days except from Feb to end of Mar when we long tossed every 4 or 5 days, in most cases until 15u he was shut down from end of September to end of Feb next year when we started throwing again, February through end of March we gradually increased the tempo, during the same time we would do pulldowns last 2 weeks in Mar and clocked him, as a youth this was a barometer to which we would go by the years end, for example; this Feb-Mar on a pull down he was clocked 92mph, this year he topped 92 on the mound, the year before that, he pull down 89mph and at the end of the season he hit 89 consistently, in the beginning of year he was hitting 84-86mph. At 16u, he was able to get on mid top tier club team and at 17u he was able to get on top tier club team and this caused his season to be longer up to end of October. He pretty much pitched once a week, it did help that he threw almost 75% strikes and at times he would go 3-0 and battle back to get the batter out or sometimes they would get a hit. We were also fortunate with good college background coaches when he got older.
Pull down = taking few steps and throwing as hard as you can to the fence, net, either run or walk and as long as the radar is going up or staying the same mph he kept throwing.
Long Toss = light toss starting from home plate to 60 feet and light tossed upto 90 feet moving 5 LARGE adult steps back every 3 balls, (with this we were VERY careful, I adhere to him listening to his arm, some days we literately threw only 20 balls and some days were able to empty the bucket, we would also come back to 60 feet and I would let him pitch, fastball change and curve.
Most importantly we worked on hip to shoulder separation.
He is very athletic, he could have played football, basketball and track, he seems to have closing speed. He can dunk now with both his hands on the ball. thanks for reading the post and hope this helps.
@D6L posted:We used long toss as a tool and not specifically for increasing velocity, we did not long toss year round, we used long toss ONLY when he was being idled for more than 10 days except from Feb to end of Mar when we long tossed every 4 or 5 days, in most cases until 15u he was shut down from end of September to end of Feb next year when we started throwing again, February through end of March we gradually increased the tempo, during the same time we would do pulldowns last 2 weeks in Mar and clocked him, as a youth this was a barometer to which we would go by the years end, for example; this Feb-Mar on a pull down he was clocked 92mph, this year he topped 92 on the mound, the year before that, he pull down 89mph and at the end of the season he hit 89 consistently, in the beginning of year he was hitting 84-86mph. At 16u, he was able to get on mid top tier club team and at 17u he was able to get on top tier club team and this caused his season to be longer up to end of October. He pretty much pitched once a week, it did help that he threw almost 75% strikes and at times he would go 3-0 and battle back to get the batter out or sometimes they would get a hit. We were also fortunate with good college background coaches when he got older.
Pull down = taking few steps and throwing as hard as you can to the fence, net, either run or walk and as long as the radar is going up or staying the same mph he kept throwing.
Long Toss = light toss starting from home plate to 60 feet and light tossed upto 90 feet moving 5 LARGE adult steps back every 3 balls, (with this we were VERY careful, I adhere to him listening to his arm, some days we literately threw only 20 balls and some days were able to empty the bucket, we would also come back to 60 feet and I would let him pitch, fastball change and curve.
Most importantly we worked on hip to shoulder separation.
He is very athletic, he could have played football, basketball and track, he seems to have closing speed. He can dunk now with both his hands on the ball. thanks for reading the post and hope this helps.
Super helpful! Thanks for sharing. Your point about listening to the arm is so important and one of the things I'm constantly stressing with my '26.