A Recruiting Story

The Big12 offer came with no athletic scholarship money?

Good luck John. I hope you will continue to find safe crossings with the burned bridges you left behind.

@anotherparent posted:

The Big12 offer came with no athletic scholarship money?

Good question. I believe that some money was involved but I don’t know how much. I would guess no more than 25% this late in the game. But I’m sure that most of the 39 invites to “fall training camp” (and that’s exactly what it is) are not getting any money. The best 18 of the 39 will be kept regardless of who is on money and who isn’t. The rest will be shuttled out of town. The numbers are stacked against the players much more than most people realize. That’s the point I’m making.

@2022NYC posted:

Good luck John. I hope you will continue to find safe crossings with the burned bridges you left behind.

John is a good kid. I blame the parents for the burned bridges. But your point is well taken. Baseball is a small world and karma is real.

@adbono posted:

John is a good kid. I blame the parents for the burned bridges. But your point is well taken. Baseball is a small world and karma is real.

Those that don't listen must feel.   Hopefully it will work out for him.  Tough odds.

@adbono posted:

The best 18 of the 39 will be kept regardless of who is on money and who isn’t. The rest will be shuttled out of town.

I had always thought that getting athletic money meant that the coach was invested in you and thus was a signal you were more likely (at least) to to be kept.  So you're saying that is not the case?   I know that they can and do cut scholarship athletes, I just assumed it was less likely.

@anotherparent posted:

I had always thought that getting athletic money meant that the coach was invested in you and thus was a signal you were more likely (at least) to to be kept.  So you're saying that is not the case?   I know that they can and do cut scholarship athletes, I just assumed it was less likely.

Generally speaking you are correct. But the number of players in the transfer portal has changed a lot of things. Grad transfers often come in on no money and many of them are better than unproven freshmen on scholarship. When this happens the HC has a decision to make and it almost always goes in favor of the experienced player. This is what baseballhs alluded to in her post. Even if the younger players on scholarship don’t lose their roster spot they are very likely to lose their chance of playing time. This is an issue at all levels of NCAA baseball due to how many players have received extra years of eligibility.

Freshman team = development = team success

Bob

Adbono,

Two schools (a JUCO and a Big12) is a very small pool of potential offering schools especially for the baseball talent that he possesses.  Based on what you've shared (from the recruit's view) I think he sold himself way short.  Again, from the outside looking in it appears he didn't do his due diligence especially with his "minor learning disability".   I hope his parents were there to guide him in his decision and they accounted for his disability in their recruiting recommendation to his son. 

Everybody has a different story, background and requirements but in the end the recruit (and parents) is going to own the decision.  I realize it is extremely intoxicating to have that level of talent, and difficult for a 15, 16,17 year old kid to make the right choice.   A lot of us have never been in this position with elite talent.   

Sometimes, I think it is much more difficult on elite recruits as they don't have the luxury of more time and more experience in the recruiting process than someone who has D1 mid-major talent who has the benefit of being passed over by the D1 P5s or other D1 mid-majors.  My oldest son was approached and recruited by an SEC after one of their recruits had serious legal issues a year after the recruit had committed.   My son was in the middle of weeding through D1 mid-major schools at the time.    The SEC school was offering academic money, and admissions into the schools honor college.   My son saw this for exactly what it was (a sales tactic) as he had the "benefit" of a year of recruiting experience and rejection from a handful of schools.   In my way of thinking, rejection was a great learning experience for my son in this case.

Just my experience.......

Fenway, your posts always have meat on the bone. In John’s (not his real name btw) case he is somewhat of a late bloomer who is just starting to realize his potential. There is no question in my mind that he will be able to pitch in the Big12. But not yet.  Even with elite talent that doesn’t make him ready for it at 18 years old. One thing that most people don’t give enough consideration is the issue of confidence. Pitching in particular requires supreme confidence to be effective. Confidence is built bit by bit as small successes are stacked up over time. When that course gets abandoned (too soon) for a sink or swim proposition all the confidence gained can be lost in one fell swoop - and it can take a long time  to regain it. When that happens it’s a setback - and it interrupts the career progression. Some players never get back on track. I say why put yourself on a road full of potholes when there is a smooth road nearby that leads to the same destination. Top 25 D1 programs often don’t do much to develop their players. They expect them to show up on campus ready to help win ballgames. The ones that aren’t ready don’t get kept so they can develop. They get replaced post haste. John has tasted success this season at a different level than ever before. As a result he believes he is ready to fly right now. I think he will be ready to fly in 2 more years. I guess we will see who is right. But John is 18 years old and his parents have no prior experience with college recruiting - they just want to see their son play at their alma mater. I am 65 years old and have been around the game all my life. I have seen what has happened to highly recruited HS freshmen pitchers since Covid has changed the rules. They get warehoused, tinkered with, left to their own devices, and lose their confidence. I understand that it’s a decision left up to the player and their family but bad decisions have killed many a promising career. So my money is on me being right about where this is headed. I would love to be wrong but probability says I won’t be.

@adbono posted:

Fenway, your posts always have meat on the bone. In John’s (not his real name btw) case he is somewhat of a late bloomer who is just starting to realize his potential. There is no question in my mind that he will be able to pitch in the Big12. But not yet.  Even with elite talent that doesn’t make him ready for it at 18 years old. One thing that most people don’t give enough consideration is the issue of confidence. Pitching in particular requires supreme confidence to be effective. Confidence is built bit by bit as small successes are stacked up over time. When that course gets abandoned (too soon) for a sink or swim proposition all the confidence gained can be lost in one fell swoop - and it can take a long time  to regain it. When that happens it’s a setback - and it interrupts the career progression. Some players never get back on track. I say why put yourself on a road full of potholes when there is a smooth road nearby that leads to the same destination. Top 25 D1 programs often don’t do much to develop their players. They expect them to show up on campus ready to help win ballgames. The ones that aren’t ready don’t get kept so they can develop. They get replaced post haste. John has tasted success this season at a different level than ever before. As a result he believes he is ready to fly right now. I think he will be ready to fly in 2 more years. I guess we will see who is right. But John is 18 years old and his parents have no prior experience with college recruiting - they just want to see their son play at their alma mater. I am 65 years old and have been around the game all my life. I have seen what has happened to highly recruited HS freshmen pitchers since Covid has changed the rules. They get warehoused, tinkered with, left to their own devices, and lose their confidence. I understand that it’s a decision left up to the player and their family but bad decisions have killed many a promising career. So my money is on me being right about where this is headed. I would love to be wrong but probability says I won’t be.

@adbono  @fenway  when is the podcast coming.  Great, respectful dialog. Always providing sound advice.  Thanks at the insights.

Maybe I can take your threads and implement "AI" based what ifs in CBI.

I would have "no idea" who this is or "where" he is going.  Only team that has more players on the field in fall ball in the state of Texas than this university may be Southlake .

Can’t get anything past a guy from Cleburne!  But speaking of “this University”, I hope people are wising up.

@adbono Serious question - what do you recommend for those late bloomers who may be capable of playing at a high level at some point in the future but aren't there yet and don't come from a juco friendly area. Meaning the baseball isn't great or doesn't really offer a pathway to higher level baseball.

So a player who lives in CT or NY and has walk-on D1 offers or somebody who hit a late growth spurt and had a significant velo increase but has never really played higher level competition to be tested. I know in our area, there are some decent jucos, but none are really placing their kids well.

@PABaseball, that’s a good question and I think a lot of kids fall into that category regardless of where they live. There is no easy answer. My first suggestion would be to look farther south until you get to areas where JuCo baseball is more highly regarded. That might require an advocate that could make the initial contact. Post grad might be another option tho not my favorite route. I think times are tougher than ever for HS seniors but especially for late bloomers.

@PABaseball posted:

@adbono Serious question - what do you recommend for those late bloomers who may be capable of playing at a high level at some point in the future but aren't there yet and don't come from a juco friendly area. Meaning the baseball isn't great or doesn't really offer a pathway to higher level baseball.

So a player who lives in CT or NY and has walk-on D1 offers or somebody who hit a late growth spurt and had a significant velo increase but has never really played higher level competition to be tested. I know in our area, there are some decent jucos, but none are really placing their kids well.

Just like going D1 a player wants a 17u coaching staff with the right contacts. This was about ten years ago. My son’s Mid Atlantic travel team was placing everyone P5. Except one kid was dumber than a bag of rocks. He had the talent. He didn’t have the brains. The coaching staff placed him at a quality NC JuCo with several ACC programs into the area. The kid flunked out of the JuCo. End of story.

NYC has a couple of D1 JCs. Monroe College had some players who came from P5 and did the 4-2-4 thing. I imagine that roster is tough to crack.

@2022NYC posted:

NYC has a couple of D1 JCs. Monroe College had some players who came from P5 and did the 4-2-4 thing. I imagine that roster is tough to crack.

Yes, some in Pa/Nj as well. You get a decent amount of P5 dropdowns, but it doesn't appear they ever get back to a high level baseball program after the JC. They typically feed to the same 4-10 lower level D1 programs. I don't know if that is because they never belonged in the first place or the juco doesn't place well.

Every local P5-2-4 success story I've seen has involved the player in question heading to a southern juco.

@PABaseball posted:

Yes, some in Pa/Nj as well. You get a decent amount of P5 dropdowns, but it doesn't appear they ever get back to a high level baseball program after the JC. They typically feed to the same 4-10 lower level D1 programs. I don't know if that is because they never belonged in the first place or the juco doesn't place well.

Every local P5-2-4 success story I've seen has involved the player in question heading to a southern juco.

JuCo baseball in the sunshine states is different than in the NE. It’s just way better baseball. All you have to do is look at the results in the D1 & D2 JuCo World Series if you have any doubt. The teams from the NE regions never fare well against teams from Florida, Texas, Arizona, Louisiana, Mississippi, etc. in post season play. There are also some very strong programs in the Midwest but not nearly as many. The regional differences are huge. The 4-2-4 route is common in Texas. Every D1 in Texas over recruits to some extent. Only the very best HS seniors have a chance to stick in a D1 program as a freshman - but many that are not the very best (but still VERY good) show up to take their shot (or so they think) anyway. When they inevitably get shown the door they usually drop down to JuCo where they are welcomed b/c they are very good players. They often take a position away from another player who began at that JuCo and thought he had won a starting spot. But that is a different topic. After success at a Texas JuCo the players often transfer to a equal or better D1 than they started at. Or the JuCo experience has shown them that D2 is a better fit. There are too many players right now at every good D1 program which is why I push the JuCo route for 95% of HS seniors. That route makes sense in Texas. It may not in NY so if you are in that situation look outside your comfort zone. Head south young man!

PABaseball, in general, perhaps the player should research a school that they can get the best education for their desired field of study and also play baseball.  There is no guarantee they develop to the player they hope to be.  If the "late bloomer" would like to play at the next level or at a higher level of college then there may be an opportunity  during the various summer wood bat summer leagues to display their skills. 

No HC/RC can take an education opportunity away from a player but they can take away their baseball opportunity!

@JABMK posted:

No HC/RC can take an education opportunity away from a player but they can take away their baseball opportunity!

For many kids if they are getting athletic money and lose it, their families cannot afford the school they're at.

@adbono posted:

JuCo baseball in the sunshine states is different than in the NE. It’s just way better baseball. All you have to do is look at the results in the D1 & D2 JuCo World Series if you have any doubt. The teams from the NE regions never fare well against teams from Florida, Texas, Arizona, Louisiana, Mississippi, etc. in post season play. There are also some very strong programs in the Midwest but not nearly as many. The regional differences are huge. The 4-2-4 route is common in Texas. Every D1 in Texas over recruits to some extent. Only the very best HS seniors have a chance to stick in a D1 program as a freshman - but many that are not the very best (but still VERY good) show up to take their shot (or so they think) anyway. When they inevitably get shown the door they usually drop down to JuCo where they are welcomed b/c they are very good players. They often take a position away from another player who began at that JuCo and thought he had won a starting spot. But that is a different topic. After success at a Texas JuCo the players often transfer to a equal or better D1 than they started at. Or the JuCo experience has shown them that D2 is a better fit. There are too many players right now at every good D1 program which is why I push the JuCo route for 95% of HS seniors. That route makes sense in Texas. It may not in NY so if you are in that situation look outside your comfort zone. Head south young man!

@adbono

I agree with your points, with a slight nuance.

Note, there are no D1 Juco programs in NJ, very strong D2 and D3.  (Region 19). This is not due to lack of talent, especially in South Jersey, it is financials of how the community colleges want to be classified.

RCSJ Cumberland and Rowan @ Gloucester are D3 in name only, if they were to upgrade to D1, they would attract from South Jersey, Delaware, Maryland and Eastern PA.  South Jersey by itself is has always had some of the better baseball, but I might be a little bias. (Gloucester Catholic, St Aug and Bishop Eustace),

Until a couple of years ago Mercer County (D2) was stacked,  In 2017, if it wasn't for mismanagement of pitchers in the final 2 games of the world series, they should have defeated Parkland, but you have to play the game.

Here are some of the JUCO Insights by State

PA

New York

@CollegebaseballInsights, I’m aware that there are good D3 JuCos in New Jersey and I alluded to huge regional differences. I will use Texas as an example. In Texas the only D3 JuCos are in the Dallas College Conference. Two of those schools (Eastfield & Richland) are ranked in the top 10 nationally right behind the NJ schools you mentioned. But they don’t get much respect locally. Eastfield & Richland couldn’t compete in D1 Region 5 (North and West Texas). They don’t have comparable pitching. There are also no D2 JuCos in Texas. But Region 2 (Oklahoma & Arkansas) plays good baseball and the better teams would compete well in Region 5. There are Texas kids all over Region 2 and there is crossover in talent in the 3 NJCAA divisions the same as there is in the NCAA. In 2019 D2 Western Oklahoma had their entire infield selected in the MLB draft. You think they were any good? It’s hard to speak in general terms about JuCo baseball because the regional differences are so big that there is an exception to almost anything you say. But it’s safe to say that there are only a few exceptional JuCo programs in the NE and in the states I mentioned in my previous post there are literally too many exceptional JuCo programs to count. One thing that’s universally true is that most people don’t know very much about JuCo baseball until they find themselves not being recruited by NCAA D1 schools. Then they want a crash course to learn everything in 15 minutes - and that just can’t be done.

@adbono posted:

@CollegebaseballInsights, I’m aware that there are good D3 JuCos in New Jersey and I alluded to huge regional differences. I will use Texas as an example. In Texas the only D3 JuCos are in the Dallas College Conference. Two of those schools (Eastfield & Richland) are ranked in the top 10 nationally right behind the NJ schools you mentioned. But they don’t get much respect locally. Eastfield & Richland couldn’t compete in D1 Region 5 (North and West Texas). They don’t have comparable pitching. There are also no D2 JuCos in Texas. But Region 2 (Oklahoma & Arkansas) plays good baseball and the better teams would compete well in Region 5. There are Texas kids all over Region 2 and there is crossover in talent in the 3 NJCAA divisions the same as there is in the NCAA. In 2019 D2 Western Oklahoma had their entire infield selected in the MLB draft. You think they were any good? It’s hard to speak in general terms about JuCo baseball because the regional differences are so big that there is an exception to almost anything you say. But it’s safe to say that there are only a few exceptional JuCo programs in the NE and in the states I mentioned in my previous post there are literally too many exceptional JuCo programs to count. One thing that’s universally true is that most people don’t know very much about JuCo baseball until they find themselves not being recruited by NCAA D1 schools. Then they want a crash course to learn everything in 15 minutes - and that just can’t be done.

@adbono I understand.  good point.

@adbono posted:

Generally speaking you are correct. But the number of players in the transfer portal has changed a lot of things. Grad transfers often come in on no money and many of them are better than unproven freshmen on scholarship. When this happens the HC has a decision to make and it almost always goes in favor of the experienced player. This is what baseballhs alluded to in her post. Even if the younger players on scholarship don’t lose their roster spot they are very likely to lose their chance of playing time. This is an issue at all levels of NCAA baseball due to how many players have received extra years of eligibility.

I’ll add that sometimes I think more than a 25% scholarship puts a target on your back. We know a kid who was getting draft attention, ask for more money and got it and then arrived in a huge slump.  He was in his head and could not hit. He did not make it past Christmas because they wanted that money back. There has always been a lack of patience and little development with some schools. Now they are being pretty transparent and just telling kids, this grad transfer (or portal transfer) has a resume…you don’t. They will get a longer leash and more opportunities.  No way to build a resume without opportunity so it’s a hamster wheel.  Even knowing a bunch of guys are going to graduate no longer means anything because a grad student can come in .  Tough climate.

@baseballhs posted:

I’ll add that sometimes I think more than a 25% scholarship puts a target on your back. We know a kid who was getting draft attention, ask for more money and got it and then arrived in a huge slump.  He was in his head and could not hit. He did not make it past Christmas because they wanted that money back. There has always been a lack of patience and little development with some schools. Now they are being pretty transparent and just telling kids, this grad transfer (or portal transfer) has a resume…you don’t. They will get a longer leash and more opportunities.  No way to build a resume without opportunity so it’s a hamster wheel.  Even knowing a bunch of guys are going to graduate no longer means anything because a grad student can come in .  Tough climate.

Excellent post!  This is what so many people don’t realize has changed b/c of NCAA rulings regarding Covid. There is no longer ANY development at most competitive D1 programs. Not only do D1 coaching staffs not want to spend their time developing young players, now they don’t have to. Much easier to comb the transfer portal and recruit Juco guys. Both already have experience. I can’t blame 4 year schools for taking advantage of this. But I do blame them for continuing to recruit HS grads that they don’t need and have no intention of developing. The entire situation is caveat emptor like never before.

Adbono;

what is the "motivation" of the "transfer" player; the "graduate transfer"; the JC transfer; and the "Freshman"

Is it a professional contract, a WS ring, the "pride of playing the game"

The wise College Coach will learn the motivation of his players and mold his team for success. Constant testing & teaching with practice games.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;

what is the "motivation" of the "transfer" player; the "graduate transfer"; the JC transfer; and the "Freshman"

Is it a professional contract, a WS ring, the "pride of playing the game"

The wise College Coach will learn the motivation of his players and mold his team for success. Constant testing & teaching with practice games.

Bob

Bob, I hear you and (as always) you are right in theory. But theory is often different than reality. And the reality is, at the ranked D1 programs (and many others too), the “constant testing & teaching” is NOT happening. It has been lacking for some time but Covid has made it much worse.

Adbono

what are the answers? Personally I would involve the pro scouts and former pro players for weekly clinics for my College team which I did when I Coached College.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono

what are the answers? Personally I would involve the pro scouts and former pro players for weekly clinics for my College team which I did when I Coached College.

Bob

Excellent question. Here are some suggestions; 1) HS players & parents need to wise up about how 4 year schools are recruiting - look at what they are doing instead of listening to what they say, 2) after that they need to start making choices that give them a better chance of success - recruiting has turned into a probability assessment.  3) then they need to make a plan for their own development and not depend on someone else to do that for them. All of that would be a good start.

@adbono posted:

Excellent question. Here are some suggestions; 1) HS players & parents need to wise up about how 4 year schools are recruiting - look at what they are doing instead of listening to what they say, 2) after that they need to start making choices that give them a better chance of success - recruiting has turned into a probability assessment.  3) then they need to make a plan for their own development and not depend on someone else to do that for them. All of that would be a good start.

I wish there was a like x10 button

I'd be willing to follow John and see what happens if you have the time to update the board occasionally. Who knows how many of the 18 POs will stay healthy,? Will John? And if so would that help him get the mound time? Clemson has an outstanding academic support program with mandatory study hall hours for classwork...which is enforced by the HC and definitely helped my son along the way... Good post, @Adbono

@Shoveit4Ks, I will be happy to keep you posted as I will be following with great interest. I have 4 years invested in him.

@adbono posted:

Excellent question. Here are some suggestions; 1) HS players & parents need to wise up about how 4 year schools are recruiting - look at what they are doing instead of listening to what they say, 2) after that they need to start making choices that give them a better chance of success - recruiting has turned into a probability assessment.  3) then they need to make a plan for their own development and not depend on someone else to do that for them. All of that would be a good start.

@adbono the challenge is the college recruiting process is designed from the perspective of the schools acquiring resources, from the student athlete/family perspective most of the information is unstructured.

Note, there a books, websites, etc that outlines the general process, but when it comes to information about school roster management tendencies, that is hard to find.

Note, the system went from playing HS and American Legion, etc to the travel ball model (training 10 months out the year, weekly tournaments, showcase, etc)

Pure money trail on multiple levels.

Travel programs having 2 to 3 teams at every age group.  Attending tournaments in location that don't recruit players from their area.

Etc.

The model is not set up to inform, it is set up for the $$$.

IMHO

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

@adbono the challenge is the college recruiting process is designed from the perspective of the schools acquiring resources, from the student athlete/family perspective most of the information is unstructured.

Note, there a books, websites, etc that outlines the general process, but when it comes to information about school roster management tendencies, that is hard to find.

Note, the system went from playing HS and American Legion, etc to the travel ball model (training 10 months out the year, weekly tournaments, showcase, etc)

Pure money trail on multiple levels.

Travel programs having 2 to 3 teams at every age group.  Attending tournaments in location that don't recruit players from their area.

Etc.

The model is not set up to inform, it is set up for the $$$.

IMHO

Most of what you stated is understood by people that have been thru the recruiting gauntlet. However it’s much better understood after the fact and not during the process. Regarding roster management history - a decent amount of information is available on most school websites. It takes some digging, and you have to go back a few years, but it’s not hard to figure out who is getting the ABs, who is getting the innings, and what roster turnover looks like. It just takes time. The fly in the ointment occurs when there is a coaching change as previous patterns are no longer relevant. But if you are an elite HS P being recruited by P5 schools and they are saying that “you are their guy and you will be a dude for us and you will be on the mound for us next year” (and that’s what they say to every recruit btw) the first thing I would do is look at the past 4 years of stats and see how many freshman pitchers got more than 8 innings.

@adbono posted:

Most of what you stated is understood by people that have been thru the recruiting gauntlet. However it’s much better understood after the fact and not during the process. Regarding roster management history - a decent amount of information is available on most school websites. It takes some digging, and you have to go back a few years, but it’s not hard to figure out who is getting the ABs, who is getting the innings, and what roster turnover looks like. It just takes time. The fly in the ointment occurs when there is a coaching change as previous patterns are no longer relevant. But if you are an elite HS P being recruited by P5 schools and they are saying that “you are their guy and you will be a dude for us and you will be on the mound for us next year” (and that’s what they say to every recruit btw) the first thing I would do is look at the past 4 years of stats and see how many freshman pitchers got more than 8 innings.

@adbono  your first sentence "Most of what you stated is understood by people that have been thru the recruiting gauntlet."

A person has to experience before understanding, thus it is the chicken or the egg.

With respects to school website, the data is raw and in certain cases corrupt, e.g  2021 Mississippi State had 46 players, they reported to Department of Ed. 48.

If you were to look at the 2021 roster as of today you will notice there are only 38 players listed.  What happened to the 10 players?

Note, overall the completeness of roster data has a direct correlation to who is maintaining the website and the budget.

Although "Rosters might be considered A Gold Mine",  there are different karats and some of the information is Fool's Gold"

A serious Question:  On average, How much time do you think is spent investigating schools?

Good stuff.  You are on point

Players are often removed from the school's web roster when they leave the team mid-season.Those who are injured and expected to return are usually kept on the on-line rosters, but anyone who enters the portal can expect to be vanished right away.

To get a better picture, look at the Season Stats page on the school's site - those will usually still contain information on the transferred players. It's still incomplete, though, because often the transferring players won't have any stats.

@T_Thomas posted:

Players are often removed from the school's web roster when they leave the team mid-season.Those who are injured and expected to return are usually kept on the on-line rosters, but anyone who enters the portal can expect to be vanished right away.

To get a better picture, look at the Season Stats page on the school's site - those will usually still contain information on the transferred players. It's still incomplete, though, because often the transferring players won't have any stats.

@t_thomas  here is the simple question that any student and parent would like to know in less than 5 mins

"How many players participated on the varsity team during the season?"

Participants

Students who, as of the day of a varsity team's first scheduled contest

(A) Are listed by the institution on the varsity team's roster;

(B) Receive athletically related student aid; or

(C) Practice with the varsity team and receive coaching from one or more varsity coaches. A student who satisfies one or more of these criteria is a participant, including a student on a team the institution designates or defines as junior varsity, freshman, or novice, or a student withheld from competition to preserve eligibility (i.e., a redshirt), or for academic, medical, or other reasons. This includes fifth-year team members who have already received a bachelor's degree.

I know this is the case at some schools but I must defend Tennessee who has been accused of it, not on here but in other circles.  Their starting lineup this year as the #1 team in the nation is

5th year new catcher who moved from LF and transformed himself, 6th year first baseman, new starting second baseman junior, new starting SS junior, new starting third baseman junior, LF is a mixed bag as no one has claimed that spot which includes juco transfer, freshman, sophomore, and junior.  CF and LF are three year starters.

Pitchers: Friday guy is freshman, Saturday guy is transfer sophomore from mid major, Sunday guy is freshman, first RHP out of bullpen is senior, second RHP is junior, closer is juco junior transfer who sat out last year due to TJ but was at UT, first LHP out of bullpen is junior who has played all three years, second is junior who really came on this year, and LHP closer is 5th year who has played four years.

DH role is mix with 2 juniors and 2 freshmen.

Our coaching staff has done a great job of keeping guys who were not getting playing time and recruiting high end guys.  Add in a small mix of transfers, juco and D1.  They have gotten guys to buy into the program and wait their turn and they are being rewarded by it and will be drafted for it.  Covid helped with the 2 fifth year and 1 sixth year guys.  I think they have strong mix of guys who played from day one to guys who waited and were developed.  Our pitching staff has been developed by one of the best in the nation at any level and hitters are incredible.

@PitchingFan posted:

I know this is the case at some schools but I must defend Tennessee who has been accused of it, not on here but in other circles.  Their starting lineup this year as the #1 team in the nation is

5th year new catcher who moved from LF and transformed himself, 6th year first baseman, new starting second baseman junior, new starting SS junior, new starting third baseman junior, LF is a mixed bag as no one has claimed that spot which includes juco transfer, freshman, sophomore, and junior.  CF and LF are three year starters.

Pitchers: Friday guy is freshman, Saturday guy is transfer sophomore from mid major, Sunday guy is freshman, first RHP out of bullpen is senior, second RHP is junior, closer is juco junior transfer who sat out last year due to TJ but was at UT, first LHP out of bullpen is junior who has played all three years, second is junior who really came on this year, and LHP closer is 5th year who has played four years.

DH role is mix with 2 juniors and 2 freshmen.

Our coaching staff has done a great job of keeping guys who were not getting playing time and recruiting high end guys.  Add in a small mix of transfers, juco and D1.  They have gotten guys to buy into the program and wait their turn and they are being rewarded by it and will be drafted for it.  Covid helped with the 2 fifth year and 1 sixth year guys.  I think they have strong mix of guys who played from day one to guys who waited and were developed.  Our pitching staff has been developed by one of the best in the nation at any level and hitters are incredible.

Agree.  Players need to understand, when $$$ are involved it is the business of college baseball.

@Shoveit4Ks posted:

I'd be willing to follow John and see what happens if you have the time to update the board occasionally. Who knows how many of the 18 POs will stay healthy,? Will John? And if so would that help him get the mound time? Clemson has an outstanding academic support program with mandatory study hall hours for classwork...which is enforced by the HC and definitely helped my son along the way... Good post, @Adbono

I forgot about this thread until I got a notice about it today. So here is an update. “John” (predictably) had an up and down fall on the baseball field. But by all accounts he made the Dean’s List in chasing coeds. He reached out to my pitching coaching partner (but not to me) during the fall for advice, support, and counsel. I view that as a good thing. John’s Big12 school had their home opener yesterday and John was the last of the 39 players listed on the 2023 roster, which was released one hour before the game started. Of the 39 players listed, 22 are pitchers and I think that 5 are freshmen. During the course of a college season the bulk (90%) of the innings are usually pitched by 10-12 pitchers if everyone stays healthy. Injuries can impact that number. If you take the 22 pitchers on the staff and subtract the 5 inexperienced freshmen that still leaves 17 more experienced pitchers who will throw the bulk of the innings this season. Unfortunately the pitchers that are actually getting on the mound will be the only ones getting attention from the coaches during the season. My prediction for John is that he will pitch 10 or less meaningless innings this spring and won’t be coached. That is pretty typical for a P5 freshman pitcher that wasn’t an MLB draft selection. Especially at this particular school. Another little trick this school keeps up its sleeve is that, following a freshman year like I described, they like to take away the players scholarship right before the start of the sophomore year (when the player has no options) and then convince the player to stay and pay 100% of their own expenses. Anyone that doesn’t understand that high level D1 baseball is all business just doesn’t want to see the truth.

Adbono;

What Summer League will "John" play? Did you or his Coach arrange the team? Another "key" to a player's future is the placement by the College Coach.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;

What Summer League will "John" play? Did you or his Coach arrange the team? Another "key" to a player's future is the placement by the College Coach.

Bob

I don’t know what has been arranged for summer ball for John. I’m sure it will be a decision made by someone on his college coaching staff.

Adbono

if they decide John will not fit in the future, they will not assist with a placement.
Bob

@adbono posted:

Excellent post!  This is what so many people don’t realize has changed b/c of NCAA rulings regarding Covid. There is no longer ANY development at most competitive D1 programs. Not only do D1 coaching staffs not want to spend their time developing young players, now they don’t have to. Much easier to comb the transfer portal and recruit Juco guys. Both already have experience. I can’t blame 4 year schools for taking advantage of this. But I do blame them for continuing to recruit HS grads that they don’t need and have no intention of developing. The entire situation is caveat emptor like never before.

I question the statement again about "hardly any development at most competitive programs".  Can you please explain.

Yes, there is some funny business going on with getting premium players from the portal but I don't believe coaches just let them loose to do their thing. Coaches have standards for their programs, but maybe that doesn't apply to the coaches in Texas?

Also my understanding is that P5 programs give scholarships for 4 years. My understanding it's all or nothing.

John's parents have just as much responsibility in the failure of this player as do the coaches.

JMO

@TPM posted:

I question the statement again about "hardly any development at most competitive programs".  Can you please explain.

Yes, there is some funny business going on with getting premium players from the portal but I don't believe coaches just let them loose to do their thing. Coaches have standards for their programs, but maybe that doesn't apply to the coaches in Texas?

Also my understanding is that P5 programs give scholarships for 4 years. My understanding it's all or nothing.

John's parents have just as much responsibility in the failure of this player as do the coaches.

JMO

IMHO the jury is still out.

Based on fall rosters we compared incoming recruiting class for 2022 vs projection 2023 season.

Now that season has started, we are collecting and cleaning up spring rosters and should have new insights by feb 23 for all conferences.

CBI, can you give us a verbal summary of that?  I read it as meaning that in all P5 except the ACC, about 40% of the new players are transfers?  And, except for the Pac-12, more from 4-year schools than from jucos?

Are the numbers similar for non-P5 schools?

Of course, then the question will be, who gets the playing time?

@anotherparent posted:

CBI, can you give us a verbal summary of that?  I read it as meaning that in all P5 except the ACC, about 40% of the new players are transfers?  And, except for the Pac-12, more from 4-year schools than from jucos?

Are the numbers similar for non-P5 schools?

Of course, then the question will be, who gets the playing time?

Visualization is self explanatory, there was minimal change within the conferences pertaining to the source of incoming recruiting class.

As the non-p5, we have the information, will determine if it will be shared.

@TPM posted:

I question the statement again about "hardly any development at most competitive programs".  Can you please explain.

Yes, there is some funny business going on with getting premium players from the portal but I don't believe coaches just let them loose to do their thing. Coaches have standards for their programs, but maybe that doesn't apply to the coaches in Texas?

Also my understanding is that P5 programs give scholarships for 4 years. My understanding it's all or nothing.

John's parents have just as much responsibility in the failure of this player as do the coaches.

JMO

  In one of my earlier posts I clearly stated that John’s parents are largely responsible for his current situation. They lied to me, and to many others, in the process of John’s recruiting journey. Ultimately what happens to John will fall at their feet more than anyone else.
   The other things that you question have all been discussed ad nauseam on HSBBW, Twitter, etc. for the past 3 years. That ship has sailed.

@adbono posted:

There is no longer ANY development at most competitive D1 programs.

I am just asking about your statement, again.

You are the one who keeps repeating it.

I see it as an insult to all the coaches and programs who work their butts off.

Perhaps these programs who you know of need do a better job at recruiting instead of scooping up in state mediocre players so the other program doesn't get them.

You know that happens.

@TPM posted:

I am just asking about your statement, again.

You are the one who keeps repeating it.

I see it as an insult to all the coaches and programs who work their butts off.

Perhaps these programs who you know of need do a better job at recruiting instead of scooping up in state mediocre players so the other program doesn't get them.

You know that happens.

I state things that I know to be true for the benefit of the members and visitors on HSBBW. You can like, dislike, agree, disagree or whatever. I don’t really care.

TPM and adbino:

"Time out"! Are we discussing the College Coach's plan to "Develop the Player's 6 Tools" ? This objective requires a extensive lesson plan. Group and individual.

During the 17 years of the Area Code games and Tryouts and many discussions with College Coaches, the definition of "Development of the Player's 6 tools" was not a organized

Maybe with the addition of former Pro Players as College Coaches and the reduction of roosters, we can expect teaching of the improvement of a player's tool box.

The clinics at the College Coaches Convention have provided this education. As Joe Morgan [Giants Coach] related at one of our SF Giants Clinics.

"I can talk about base running and base stealing for 10 minutes or 10 hours which one do you want"?

Bob

@Consultant posted:

TPM and adbino:

"Time out"! Are we discussing the College Coach's plan to "Develop the Player's 6 Tools" ? This objective requires a extensive lesson plan. Group and individual.

During the 17 years of the Area Code games and Tryouts and many discussions with College Coaches, the definition of "Development of the Player's 6 tools" was not a organized

Maybe with the addition of former Pro Players as College Coaches and the reduction of roosters, we can expect teaching of the improvement of a player's tool box.

The clinics at the College Coaches Convention have provided this education. As Joe Morgan [Giants Coach] related at one of our SF Giants Clinics.

"I can talk about base running and base stealing for 10 minutes or 10 hours which one do you want"?

Bob

I think we have a failure to communicate. IMO if a top level D1 school brings in a 22 man freshman class (which is typical) cuts 12 of them at semester (which is typical), carries 10 in the spring, but only a 2-3 get meaningful reps and coaching, I call that a failure to develop young talent. However, if you are one of the 2-3 (out of 22) that is actually playing and improving you would have a different opinion. Like everything else, it turns into an assessment of probability.

One program bringing in too many freshman doesn't mean that "there is no more development at most competitive D1 programs".

@adbono posted:

I think we have a failure to communicate. IMO if a top level D1 school brings in a 22 man freshman class (which is typical) cuts 12 of them at semester (which is typical), carries 10 in the spring, but only a 2-3 get meaningful reps and coaching, I call that a failure to develop young talent. However, if you are one of the 2-3 (out of 22) that is actually playing and improving you would have a different opinion. Like everything else, it turns into an assessment of probability.

Just to make sure I understand, when you say meaningful reps, are you talking about reps in their freshman year?

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Just to make sure I understand, when you say meaningful reps, are you talking about reps in their freshman year?

I define “development” as some combination of meaningful reps in practice/games AND attention from coaches during the season in the form of supervision, video analysis, and personal instruction. That’s what all players need in order to improve during their freshman and sophomore years. It varies from program to program how well this occurs. And it’s often not the bigger name programs that do the best job with it. But since Covid : extra years of eligibility, the transfer portal, and the reduction of the MLB draft to 20 rounds, the focus in college baseball has shifted drastically to older, proven players. Since there is an over-supply of them these players are being sought out by the most competitive D1 programs at the expense of developing young players in their own programs. This approach is all about immediate results and it requires less work on the part of the coaching staff. It’s essentially a new business model that has evolved as a result of the circumstances. Some schools have bought into this completely and some just partially. But they are all doing it to some extent at the most competitive D1 programs. There are still some coaches that work hard at developing young players. But they are in the vast minority at this point in time. It’s no different than an employer considering a hiring decision. Would you rather hire an experienced person that has proven they already know how to do the job? Or would you rather hire an inexperienced person and hope that you can train them to do the job well? That’s where we are.

As far as development at D1's.  I can't speak for all of them, but I can assure you there are some schools/coaches that do ZERO to develop players.  My son played at a mid-major and in 4 years I didn't see one kid who improved even a small part due to coaching.  In fact, most of them regressed significantly.  Son said practices were less coordinated than he had in travel ball and HS.  The coach isn't there any more, but it's easy to see why they never won more than 10 games in a season and missed the conference tourney every year.   They are in season 3 of a new coach (started after my son left) and the team has improved each of the 3 seasons.  Son is still friends with some of the players.  He said it's night and day different than what it was like when he was there as far as how the season/practice/workouts/training are done.

@TPM posted:

I question the statement again about "hardly any development at most competitive programs".  Can you please explain.

Yes, there is some funny business going on with getting premium players from the portal but I don't believe coaches just let them loose to do their thing. Coaches have standards for their programs, but maybe that doesn't apply to the coaches in Texas?

I know for a fact this happens.  I know of a P5 pitcher who's at a top 25 team.  His freshman year he was having teammates take videos of bullpens to send back to his club pitching coach for help.  They were focused on winning a CWS, not help a freshman pitcher who only threw 15 innings.

He's a weekend starter now.

I can speak to my son's school UT.  I believe there are kids on both sides. If you ask the ones there, they will tell you they are developed but if you ask the ones who left they will say they weren't.  I can also speak to my middle son's experience.  He was the kid who went from mid 90's LHP to topping at 90 his senior year because the pitching coach did not believe in long toss or throwing between outings and didn't really believe in fall workouts.  Saw several guys regress there.  Some got better but it was really because they got bigger and stronger and matured.  Son was already big and strong when he got there and lack of throwing hurt him.  I also blame him for not doing it even though I harassed him all the time about his lack of throwing.    I think your experience at a school determines your thoughts on the school and the process.

Re: One of son’s travel teammates at a P5 …

Looking back it was obvious the head coach didn’t like his recruiting coach’s recruiting effort on this player. The head coach had his assistants try to change almost everything about the kid’s game. In the spring the kid received zero attention. He didn’t travel. The third time he was the only end of bench player not to get into a lopsided home game he went to the coach.

The coach told him at the end of the season he was going to be told he wasn’t going to be invited back. The kid asked why he wasn’t told after fall ball so he could transfer then. The fireworks started. He was cut on the spot.

I had coached this kid through 16u and watched him for two years in 17u. I saw him as a solid top D2 prospect. This P5 was his only D1 offer. The rest of the 17u team went D1. Every player had P5 offers. Maybe the kid played, “me too.” It was a mistake. A recruit and the parents have to ask themselves honestly, what does this program see that not one other D1 sees? The kid didn’t play freshman year, transferred to a mid major and sat for transfer soph year, got beat out for a starting position his academic junior year and quit baseball.

Had he gone D2 he might have starred. The problem I saw I was the kid was a physical early bloomer. By the time he was a senior in high school I didn’t see how he could get much quicker and stronger. My son and several travel teammates suspected the kid was on roids.

@Master P posted:

I know for a fact this happens.  I know of a P5 pitcher who's at a top 25 team.  His freshman year he was having teammates take videos of bullpens to send back to his club pitching coach for help.  They were focused on winning a CWS, not help a freshman pitcher who only threw 15 innings.

He's a weekend starter now.

I never stated that it never happens. I challenged the statement that "there is no more development at most D1 competitive programs".

These days if you don't get the job DONE as a coach, you lose your job. That goes for low to mid D1 as well as P5 programs. Go to the D1 coaching carousel. Some HC coaches get fired but end up immediately as assistants in other places. I have to shake my head sometimes but usually it becomes a better fit.

Most of the bigger more competitive programs now have plenty of qualified staff to work with freshman and have created positions for this purpose. Many have employed scouts as assistants while the other coaches remain on campus.

It's your job as future freshman parents and your son's job to find out what goes on during fall practice. I met a parent a few weeks ago who told me that he understood the process and would only let his son play for a fair coach who would give his son a shot. Well guess what, the freshman got his shot this weekend and proved he belonged. He thrived in fall practice but he also was a highly ranked player out of HS. Make sure that your player understands how it works.

@RJM posted:

Re: One of son’s travel teammates at a P5 ….

I had coached this kid through 16u and watched him for two years in 17u. I saw him as a solid top D2 prospect. This P5 was his only D1 offer. The rest of the 17u team went D1. Every player had P5 offers. Maybe the kid played, “me too.” It was a mistake. A recruit and the parents have to ask themselves honestly, what does this program see that not one other D1 sees? The kid didn’t play freshman year, transferred to a mid major and sat for transfer soph year, got beat out for a starting position his academic junior year and quit baseball.

Had he gone D2 he might have starred. The problem I saw I was the kid was a physical early bloomer. By the time he was a senior in high school I didn’t see how he could get much quicker and stronger. My son and several travel teammates suspected the kid was on roids.

I wonder how many parents who feel that their kid is "D1 or bust" have even been at a D1 game before their son commits?  When my son was a junior and was getting his first D1 attention I took a Sunday afternoon and went and watched a D1 game.  Keep in mind I had formed & was an assistant coach on his 15U/16u teams that had several guys getting D1 and D2 interest by this point so I felt like I had a pretty good idea of what I watch watching that day.  He didn't know I had gone.  I got home and told him about it and said "I really think you can play at that level, so if that's what you want, then go for it".  Turns out he ended up playing for one of the two schools I watched that day.

I guess my point is that parents in a lot of cases probably should get some help and insight from someone knowledgeable and that they trust to give them their thoughts.  Can the kid make the team?  If he does will he play?   Will he sit for 2 years?   It seems like every parent of an incoming freshman thought their kid would get significant playing time right away.  Fortunately my son did, but we knew going in that several of the guys in his freshman class wouldn't....and we knew which two for sure wouldn't handle it well.  They didn't (and neither did their parents) and both were gone after their freshman year.

@RJM posted:

Re: One of son’s travel teammates at a P5 …

Looking back it was obvious the head coach didn’t like his recruiting coach’s recruiting effort on this player. The head coach had his assistants try to change almost everything about the kid’s game. In the spring the kid received zero attention. He didn’t travel. The third time he was the only end of bench player not to get into a lopsided home game he went to the coach.

The coach told him at the end of the season he was going to be told he wasn’t going to be invited back. The kid asked why he wasn’t told after fall ball so he could transfer then. The fireworks started. He was cut on the spot.

I had coached this kid through 16u and watched him for two years in 17u. I saw him as a solid top D2 prospect. This P5 was his only D1 offer. The rest of the 17u team went D1. Every player had P5 offers. Maybe the kid played, “me too.” It was a mistake. A recruit and the parents have to ask themselves honestly, what does this program see that not one other D1 sees? The kid didn’t play freshman year, transferred to a mid major and sat for transfer soph year, got beat out for a starting position his academic junior year and quit baseball.

Had he gone D2 he might have starred. The problem I saw I was the kid was a physical early bloomer. By the time he was a senior in high school I didn’t see how he could get much quicker and stronger. My son and several travel teammates suspected the kid was on roids.

I was going to ask how could a kid, whether he is fully grown or not, could NOT get faster/stronger in college?  I understand the lifting and the workouts are even more intense and longer once you get into college.  Then I read the last line.  I guess if he was on steroids he might have reached his max strength and speed.

@adbono posted:

I forgot about this thread until I got a notice about it today. So here is an update. “John” (predictably) had an up and down fall on the baseball field. But by all accounts he made the Dean’s List in chasing coeds. He reached out to my pitching coaching partner (but not to me) during the fall for advice, support, and counsel. I view that as a good thing. John’s Big12 school had their home opener yesterday and John was the last of the 39 players listed on the 2023 roster, which was released one hour before the game started. Of the 39 players listed, 22 are pitchers and I think that 5 are freshmen. During the course of a college season the bulk (90%) of the innings are usually pitched by 10-12 pitchers if everyone stays healthy. Injuries can impact that number. If you take the 22 pitchers on the staff and subtract the 5 inexperienced freshmen that still leaves 17 more experienced pitchers who will throw the bulk of the innings this season. Unfortunately the pitchers that are actually getting on the mound will be the only ones getting attention from the coaches during the season. My prediction for John is that he will pitch 10 or less meaningless innings this spring and won’t be coached. That is pretty typical for a P5 freshman pitcher that wasn’t an MLB draft selection. Especially at this particular school. Another little trick this school keeps up its sleeve is that, following a freshman year like I described, they like to take away the players scholarship right before the start of the sophomore year (when the player has no options) and then convince the player to stay and pay 100% of their own expenses. Anyone that doesn’t understand that high level D1 baseball is all business just doesn’t want to see the truth.

Are you kidding me?  That is a dick move, in all aspects.  not helping the kid develop and then pulling the scholarship when he has no options.  Man, if my kid ever becomes good enough to play at a top school, I pray I can recognize something like this and avoid the school. 

I guess I didn't realize how ruthless it is.  Even in corporate America they invest in their employees and try and develop them.   I am glad I read this thread and pass on to my boys that they must take charge of their development even in college.  

@Dadof3 posted:

I guess I didn't realize how ruthless it is.  Even in corporate America they invest in their employees and try and develop them.   I am glad I read this thread and pass on to my boys that they must take charge of their development even in college.  

There are a lot of very fine mid D1 programs with great coaching staffs in all parts of the country. I believe ever player can find a home but they must be realistic in their search.

I do not recommend anyone go into a top 25 program unless someone has identified your player as a top prospect.

Not that they don't  develop but it's very difficult to play as often as you think you should. Some players know they have to wait, others just leave.

@Dadof3 posted:

I guess I didn't realize how ruthless it is.  Even in corporate America they invest in their employees and try and develop them.   I am glad I read this thread and pass on to my boys that they must take charge of their development even in college.  

That is the thing to take away from this thread. Every player needs to be in charge of every aspect of his own career- including development. Things are in a constant state of flux and it’s up to the player to create his own plan and work it.

@adbono posted:

That is the thing to take away from this thread. Every player needs to be in charge of every aspect of his own career- including development. Things are in a constant state of flux and it’s up to the player to create his own plan and work it.

That I agree with 100%!

Example:  Wyatt Langford

Someone asked me this week how you know if a kid is top P5 player?  I gave several things from this thread and actually pointed them here.  But I also finished with in today's world if they are not getting some professional MLB interest, questionnaires and scout conversations in HS, they probably will struggle at that level.  Not saying you can't, but even those who beat the odds will tell you it is tough.  On son's podcast, the ones who did not get that interest out of HS that play or played at UT, have all said I had to work my butt off to have a chance because I was going against the grain.  We also know a bunch that realized they were in over their heads.  Son's freshman roommate was one who got redshirted freshman year and realized he was a great HS player but in over his head at UT.  Transferred and has had a great three years at a smaller school.  He found the "right pond".   He might could have stayed and played a little but he also might have stayed and never played.  He made what was the best choice for him.

I don't think lack of coaching is the issue. I think lack of coaching for roster numbers 25-40 is the issue.

It's pretty bizarre that these guys who are supposed to be baseball guys cannot get an end of the roster guy to at least become a spot starter or situational player within a year or two. The fact that they have to cut 7-12 players every year shows they are lazy with recruiting and are not necessarily the baseball savants they're made out to be.

@PitchingFan is correct. The amount (or lack thereof) of interest from MLB scouts is the best litmus test indicator of top P5 talent. In essence that is the market telling those players they belong at that level. And they are right most of the time - as their jobs depend on them being right. Things tend to go pretty well for players of that caliber when they opt to play in college. Superstars always have an easier path if they can stay healthy. But there are a lot of really good players just below the superstar level and things have gotten more difficult for that group and everyone below them. That’s why being in the right pond is more important than ever. There is more to it than baseball - even for guys at P5 programs. Things like academic progress, confidence, and happiness. It’s rare for a player to reach his potential if he isn’t happy. The overall environment that a player lives in every day is as important as anything else.

@PABaseball wrote, “I think lack of coaching roster numbers 25-40 is the issue.”

I agree. That would be called lack of development, wouldn’t it ?!?

@adbono posted:

@PABaseball wrote, “I think lack of coaching roster numbers 25-40 is the issue.”

I agree. That would be called lack of development, wouldn’t it ?!?

Correct. It's really sad.

Youngest is a freshman at a mid major. Turned down a few 25-30% P5 offers to be at his current school. Opened against a P5 this weekend. I thought he was better than the freshmen the P5 rolled out. I also knew that if he struggled at all in the fall he would've been cut by Halloween. He will be much better off getting more attention and instruction at his current school.

Besides development, what about players (pitchers in particular) health? It seems that as you go further down the D1 chain coaches will ride the hot arm until it basically falls off.

NYC DAD

Pitchers are special and it is the informative prospective player and parent who will ask the "proper" questions when interviewed.

Of course, the school publishes the pitcher's innings, record, # of strikes, balls, ground outs, fly balls. It is all available. Research and Analyze.

Bob

@PABaseball posted:

I don't think lack of coaching is the issue. I think lack of coaching for roster numbers 25-40 is the issue.

It's pretty bizarre that these guys who are supposed to be baseball guys cannot get an end of the roster guy to at least become a spot starter or situational player within a year or two. The fact that they have to cut 7-12 players every year shows they are lazy with recruiting and are not necessarily the baseball savants they're made out to be.

Why put in the time with players unlikely to be on the roster next year?

@Buckeye 2015 posted:

I wonder how many parents who feel that their kid is "D1 or bust" have even been at a D1 game before their son commits?  When my son was a junior and was getting his first D1 attention I took a Sunday afternoon and went and watched a D1 game.  Keep in mind I had formed & was an assistant coach on his 15U/16u teams that had several guys getting D1 and D2 interest by this point so I felt like I had a pretty good idea of what I watch watching that day.  He didn't know I had gone.  I got home and told him about it and said "I really think you can play at that level, so if that's what you want, then go for it".  Turns out he ended up playing for one of the two schools I watched that day.

I guess my point is that parents in a lot of cases probably should get some help and insight from someone knowledgeable and that they trust to give them their thoughts.  Can the kid make the team?  If he does will he play?   Will he sit for 2 years?   It seems like every parent of an incoming freshman thought their kid would get significant playing time right away.  Fortunately my son did, but we knew going in that several of the guys in his freshman class wouldn't....and we knew which two for sure wouldn't handle it well.  They didn't (and neither did their parents) and both were gone after their freshman year.

The kid played for me in 16u when the boys were fifteen. He was one of five, including my son recruited by 17u teams the following year. They all went to the same team. These kids had been playing together since 13u. They played on rival teams in LL. They knew of each other going back to ten years old. I believe the kid was caught up in “me too.”

This kid started attending MLB scouting events after committing. I asked the dad why. He said he’s a pro prospect. My only comment was the only players who should be attending these camps are players who might get million dollar-plus offers. My son’s first year on the 17u team one kid got the big offer and signed. His second year I felt there was one player. It wasn’t this kid. Even the kid I felt had the potential didn’t bother. He knew he was going to college.

I still say it is a dual problem.  Which comes first chicken or the egg?

The coaches are afraid if the player does not start as a freshman they will not stay so why should I invest in a kid who probably won't be here next year.  The player who doesn't start as a freshman thinks he will get cut so why invest the extra time to still not get to play.  Both are hurting themselves and others.  I think it is rare the coach who invests in the guy who won't help him until 2/3 years down the road and the player who stays with the program even though he may not start until his junior or senior year.

Trey Lipscomb is one of the greatest examples of staying the course.  He sat behind two draftees at third base for UT and did not start until his senior year.  Then had a great season and got drafted.  He is the unicorn. (For those of you on the other thread who do not know what the phrase unicorn means it is a very unusual person who you don't see every day.)

@PitchingFan posted:

I still say it is a dual problem.  Which comes first chicken or the egg?

The coaches are afraid if the player does not start as a freshman they will not stay so why should I invest in a kid who probably won't be here next year.  The player who doesn't start as a freshman thinks he will get cut so why invest the extra time to still not get to play.  Both are hurting themselves and others.  I think it is rare the coach who invests in the guy who won't help him until 2/3 years down the road and the player who stays with the program even though he may not start until his junior or senior year.

Trey Lipscomb is one of the greatest examples of staying the course.  He sat behind two draftees at third base for UT and did not start until his senior year.  Then had a great season and got drafted.  He is the unicorn. (For those of you on the other thread who do not know what the phrase unicorn means it is a very unusual person who you don't see every day.)

Both kids (baseball and softball) observed everyone shows up fall of freshmen year with the talent to compete for playing time. Everyone was a high school star. No one has ever sat before college. But it doesn’t take long for those not getting on the field to lose their mental edge and have one foot out the door. They said if they notice while focused on their own business, it must be easy for the coaching staff to see it.

@PitchingFan posted:

I still say it is a dual problem.  Which comes first chicken or the egg?

The coaches are afraid if the player does not start as a freshman they will not stay so why should I invest in a kid who probably won't be here next year.  The player who doesn't start as a freshman thinks he will get cut so why invest the extra time to still not get to play.  Both are hurting themselves and others.  I think it is rare the coach who invests in the guy who won't help him until 2/3 years down the road and the player who stays with the program even though he may not start until his junior or senior year.

Trey Lipscomb is one of the greatest examples of staying the course.  He sat behind two draftees at third base for UT and did not start until his senior year.  Then had a great season and got drafted.  He is the unicorn. (For those of you on the other thread who do not know what the phrase unicorn means it is a very unusual person who you don't see every day.)

I agree with some points.

Most freshman are not ready to play on a regular basis, it all depends on how well the coach manages his roster. What gets me is when they stick in a freshman for a game or two and burns their eligibility.

Hate that!

Thumbs up to the coaches who use non conference mid week games to give their RS freshman and true freshman gametime on the mound and at the plate.

@Consultant posted:

NYC DAD

Pitchers are special and it is the informative prospective player and parent who will ask the "proper" questions when interviewed.

Of course, the school publishes the pitcher's innings, record, # of strikes, balls, ground outs, fly balls. It is all available. Research and Analyze.

Bob

That's all well and good.....But you can ask all the questions you want and it still not turn out great. Now combine that with coming on campus during Covid and the circumstances surrounding it and it becomes more complicated.

And I'm talking about the the lower levels of D1, sometimes (a lot of times) pitch counts don't even make it into the box score.

My hypothesis is pitchers at low level D1's are much more likely to be abused than at the upper programs. I think this is a combination of coaching (better coaching at the higher levels) and at the lower D1 levels coaches want to get wins given the opportunity at all costs. Wins can be far and few between and they are looking to climb the ladder to better positions.

I just think families going through the recruiting process need to understand this if it comes down to a low level D1 vs. a high level D3.

@nycdad

What exactly determines a lower level D1 baseball program? I thought that it's determined by football.

I think what players and parents need to determine between D1, D2, D3 is costs and education.

Technically my understanding is that D3 is the lowest level in college sports but these days many D2, D3 have excellent programs.

Pitcher abuse is not as rampant as it was when son was in college.

Thank goodness.

I am just wondering what determines a lower level D1 that might abuse its pitchers.

@nycdad posted:

.....................

My hypothesis is pitchers at low level D1's are much more likely to be abused than at the upper programs. I think this is a combination of coaching (better coaching at the higher levels) and at the lower D1 levels coaches want to get wins given the opportunity at all costs. Wins can be far and few between and they are looking to climb the ladder to better positions.

I need a lot more convincing on your hypothesis.

I think the mid to lower level D1s don't have the resources, experience and expertise that many of the top D1 programs possess but that doesn't necesssarily mean they have a win at all costs mentality.  Some low to mid-D1 programs dilute their hands-on coaching by wearing many hats.  For example, a head coach who doubles as a pitching coach.  I just can't get on board with that.   As @Consultant mentions, pitchers are special but they aren't china dolls either.  Head Coaches don't have the bandwidth to work with every pitcher every day and do all the other things (fund raising, recruiting, etc..) they should be doing for their program.

Thankfully, my son's mid/low D1 program had an excellent pitching coach, strength & conditioning coach, nutritionist and resources available to help them succeed.   In my 4 years of following my son's D1 program and all the programs in his conference, I never once saw or thought a pitcher was over used.  My son came up the way most freshmen pitchers do.  He had a great freshman Fall.  He got a non-conference appearance (against #1 ranked team) early in the Spring, and did very well.  This got him noticed, and he was starting when conference play began.   He never pitched or travelled for  mid-week games, and he knew he was getting to be on the bump on the weekend.  There was no deviation from that pitching routine in any way. 

The potential for abuse in college baseball is there, but I think it is more likely to be someone in the D1 P5 bullpen. My former neighbor was a D1 P5 pitcher at a high profile university.   He bounced between the bullpen (setup, closer, long relief) as well as a starter during his sophomore & junior years.  Senior year he was exclusively a starting pitching.   There were a few pitchers on that team that I thought were overused, but I kept that to myself.  If you take the Fall season + regular season + conference championship + regionals + super regionals + CWS that has the potential for a lot of pitches thrown.  He did all of that.   I believe he also played summer college baseball too.  From my perspective, this D1 P5 situation is more likely to be an issue than a low to mid-D1 program situation.

As always, JMO and experience.

@TPM posted:

@nycdad

I am just wondering what determines a lower level D1 that might abuse its pitchers.

I would think most programs below the mid-major rankings. "You know it when you see it" comes to mind. For example, both my kids' programs I tihnk most would not consider mid majors.

@fenwaysouth posted:

The potential for abuse in college baseball is there, but I think it is more likely to be someone in the D1 P5 bullpen.

I was watching a game over the weekend and a reliever came in to close on Sunday.  The commentators mentioned that the kid had thrown 4 innings on Friday.  Then one said, "You'd never see that in pro ball, but this is college."

@fenwaysouth posted:

I need a lot more convincing on your hypothesis.

I think the mid to lower level D1s don't have the resources, experience and expertise that many of the top D1 programs possess but that doesn't necesssarily mean they have a win at all costs mentality.  Some low to mid-D1 programs dilute their hands-on coaching by wearing many hats.  For example, a head coach who doubles as a pitching coach.  I just can't get on board with that.   As @Consultant mentions, pitchers are special but they aren't china dolls either.  Head Coaches don't have the bandwidth to work with every pitcher every day and do all the other things (fund raising, recruiting, etc..) they should be doing for their program.

Thankfully, my son's mid/low D1 program had an excellent pitching coach, strength & conditioning coach, nutritionist and resources available to help them succeed.   In my 4 years of following my son's D1 program and all the programs in his conference, I never once saw or thought a pitcher was over used.  My son came up the way most freshmen pitchers do.  He had a great freshman Fall.  He got a non-conference appearance (against #1 ranked team) early in the Spring, and did very well.  This got him noticed, and he was starting when conference play began.   He never pitched or travelled for  mid-week games, and he knew he was getting to be on the bump on the weekend.  There was no deviation from that pitching routine in any way.

The potential for abuse in college baseball is there, but I think it is more likely to be someone in the D1 P5 bullpen. My former neighbor was a D1 P5 pitcher at a high profile university.   He bounced between the bullpen (setup, closer, long relief) as well as a starter during his sophomore & junior years.  Senior year he was exclusively a starting pitching.   There were a few pitchers on that team that I thought were overused, but I kept that to myself.  If you take the Fall season + regular season + conference championship + regionals + super regionals + CWS that has the potential for a lot of pitches thrown.  He did all of that.   I believe he also played summer college baseball too.  From my perspective, this D1 P5 situation is more likely to be an issue than a low to mid-D1 program situation.

As always, JMO and experience.

"I think the mid to lower level D1s don't have the resources, experience and expertise that many of the top D1 programs possess but that doesn't necesssarily mean they have a win at all costs mentality.  Some low to mid-D1 programs dilute their hands-on coaching by wearing many hats.  For example, a head coach who doubles as a pitching coach.  I just can't get on board with that.   As @Consultant mentions, pitchers are special but they aren't china dolls either.  Head Coaches don't have the bandwidth to work with every pitcher every day and do all the other things (fund raising, recruiting, etc..) they should be doing for their program."

Yes, less resources and coaches are busier and a known issue. I think we can all agree that contributes to less development, and potentially higher injury risk for pitchers. We could also talk about nutrition, accommodations, etc. Those things aren't the coaches fault of course, but factor into the overall health.

"The potential for abuse in college baseball is there, but I think it is more likely to be someone in the D1 P5 bullpen. My former neighbor was a D1 P5 pitcher at a high profile university.   He bounced between the bullpen (setup, closer, long relief) as well as a starter during his sophomore & junior years.  Senior year he was exclusively a starting pitching.   There were a few pitchers on that team that I thought were overused, but I kept that to myself.  If you take the Fall season + regular season + conference championship + regionals + super regionals + CWS that has the potential for a lot of pitches thrown.  He did all of that.   I believe he also played summer college baseball too.  From my perspective, this D1 P5 situation is more likely to be an issue than a low to mid-D1 program situation."

I think P5 schools are under a brighter light and it's easier to scrutinize with everything being on social media. There are always exceptions of course.

A few years ago I read a story about Wayne Graham, the former Rice coach. At one point he had eight straight years of a pitcher of his going in the first round. But, they all had TJ by their second pro season. Graham rode them like mules to success during their college careers.

  I started this thread because it seemed like a good example of the things that happen during a recruiting process. And it’s a real life story that we are now following in real time at the request of @Shoveit4Ks.  The decisions made by the player (John), his parents, and the Big12 school he is attending are not at all uncommon. John’s situation is a pretty typical experience for a freshman P at a top 30 P5 program. I will continue to provide updates for those of you that are following the content of this thread because it may help you better navigate your own situation. Here is the first one:

  Over the past week John’s team opened with a 4 game series at home against a very respectable opponent. They won all 4 games and in the process they used 15 pitchers, including 2 of the 5 freshmen Ps. John was not among the 15 pitchers used. And now his dad has reached out to my pitching coaching  partner for support. Apparently John is experiencing a lack of confidence and is wanting to see a sports psychologist. He is also complaining of a sore shoulder. John’s parents are happy because they got to see John on the field in their alma mater’s uniform and of course that was all documented on Twitter.

  Anyone care to count the red flags in this update? I have at least 5.

@adbono posted:

  Over the past week John’s team opened with a 4 game series at home against a very respectable opponent. They won all 4 games and in the process they used 15 pitchers, including 2 of the 5 freshmen Ps. John was not among the 15 pitchers used. And now his dad has reached out to my pitching coaching  partner for support. Apparently John is experiencing a lack of confidence and is wanting to see a sports psychologist. He is also complaining of a sore shoulder. John’s parents are happy because they got to see John on the field in their alma mater’s uniform and of course that was all documented on Twitter.

  Anyone care to count the red flags in this update? I have at least 5.

Ouch!  This story isn't going to end well I'm afraid.

The whole second paragraph has 5 red flags.  I hope the sports psychologist is able to help with confidence and get control of his life with or without baseball.

JMO.

@Buckeye 2015 posted:

Ouch!  This story isn't going to end well I'm afraid.

It’s early and there is plenty of time for things to change. But it doesn’t bode well so far.

@adbono posted:

It’s early and there is plenty of time for things to change. But it doesn’t bode well so far.

Hope it works out at his current school.

Safe money says it ends with him either transferring to another P5 and sitting there as well or going to a juco for a year/two with him ending up at a competitive mid major program where he will get 20+ innings.

Keep this thread rolling.  Can we get offshoots of this thread instead of multiple conversations embedded?  I just want to know what happened to John!  Maybe a “Dear John: …” separate thread?  🤣

Did all the twitter posts from John's parents make things worse for John?

@2022NYC posted:

Did all the twitter posts from John's parents make things worse for John?

I don’t think so.

Here is another update for those that are interested. John’s team just completed their second 4 game homestand with another sweep and now sit at 8-0 on the young season. They have now used 17 of the 18 pitchers listed on the roster, including 4 of the 5 freshmen. About half the pitchers have had more than one appearance. The one pitcher that is yet to get into a game? You guessed it. John. All indications are that John was literally the last player to make the roster and that is never a good position to be in. No matter where you are.

Adbono;

maybe John could offer to throw BP to the offense, "game conditions"

Bob

John got in the mid-week game and had success!

@314Calhoun posted:

John got in the mid-week game and had success!

That’s correct. He threw 5 pitches. The last of which resulted in a game ending double play. Let’s see what happens next.

I don't know John, but I am rooting for him

I think it is pretty impressive that a team can throw all 18 of their pitchers and have an 8-0 record.  LFG John!

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

I think it is pretty impressive that a team can throw all 18 of their pitchers and have an 8-0 record.  LFG John!

Well if we are being accurate the number of pitchers used is up to 20. A couple are 2 way guys. And they are now 8-1. But those are just details. The point of this thread is the challenge facing freshmen trying to get on the field at top 30 D1 programs.

@adbono posted:

Well if we are being accurate the number of pitchers used is up to 20. A couple are 2 way guys. And they are now 8-1. But those are just details. The point of this thread is the challenge facing freshmen trying to get on the field at top 30 D1 programs.

That can be an emotional and mental challenge.  Just about every D1 player that arrives on a college campus have tasted nothing but success their entire career.   I can see their being some mental scar tissue forming when they find themselves in John's position of not getting any playing time.   However, there is nothing that changes a coaches mind about a player as fast as seeing success in a game situation.   If John can get on the field and make the most of his outings, then the coach will put him back out there again.

@Ster posted:

That can be an emotional and mental challenge.  Just about every D1 player that arrives on a college campus have tasted nothing but success their entire career.   I can see their being some mental scar tissue forming when they find themselves in John's position of not getting any playing time.   However, there is nothing that changes a coaches mind about a player as fast as seeing success in a game situation.   If John can get on the field and make the most of his outings, then the coach will put him back out there again.

If you have read this entire thread you know it’s my belief that John and his parents made a bad decision. He is not ready today for the demands of a ranked D1 program. I believe that he will be ready in a couple of years, but not today. John was a late bloomer that really only experienced great success in his senior year of HS - and that was partly because he transferred to a school that was one classification down. All signs are that John is in for a very difficult freshman year that will test his confidence and his dedication to his craft. I also have concerns about what that will do to his mental state of mind. But that’s really the point of this thread - the unintended consequences of decisions. I could see this coming a mile away and warned John and his father about this particular school. But they didn’t listen to me. And this  was after I spent over 3 years developing John as his private pitching instructor - for no money btw. Like you, I hope John can overcome his circumstances. Time will tell.

@Ster posted:

That can be an emotional and mental challenge.  Just about every D1 player that arrives on a college campus have tasted nothing but success their entire career.   I can see their being some mental scar tissue forming when they find themselves in John's position of not getting any playing time.   However, there is nothing that changes a coaches mind about a player as fast as seeing success in a game situation.   If John can get on the field and make the most of his outings, then the coach will put him back out there again.

IMO and in coaches defense, managing the roster is not an easy task.  Some players have the stuff but not ready for the actual game.

What bothers me, and I know that I am repeating myself, some coaches just throw guys out there and burn the players year and it drives me crazy.

Make sure during recruiting that you understand the coaches philosophy.

If as a player you don't care, that's on you.

JMO

@adbono posted:

If you have read this entire thread you know it’s my belief that John and his parents made a bad decision. He is not ready today for the demands of a ranked D1 program. I believe that he will be ready in a couple of years, but not today. John was a late bloomer that really only experienced great success in his senior year of HS - and that was partly because he transferred to a school that was one classification down. All signs are that John is in for a very difficult freshman year that will test his confidence and his dedication to his craft. I also have concerns about what that will do to his mental state of mind. But that’s really the point of this thread - the unintended consequences of decisions. I could see this coming a mile away and warned John and his father about this particular school. But they didn’t listen to me. And this  was after I spent over 3 years developing John as his private pitching instructor - for no money btw. Like you, I hope John can overcome his circumstances. Time will tell.

That is very unfortunate, that the family failed to listen to quality advice.   I know that the directors of my son's travel team have given similar advice to some of my son's teammates, but the allure of the "big name" is very attractive to players (AND FAMILY).   Last summer, the directors of my son's travel ball team held a meeting with all of the families.   The purpose of the meeting was to share with them that college baseball has changed dramatically over the past couple of years.   Their presentation showed that P5 programs are dropping players that they recruit a much higher incident than they have in years past.  They showed examples of one Power 5 school that dropped four high school seniors in their senior season.  These players had been committed to this school since they were 9th and 10th graders and were informed their senior year that they weren't going to able to attend that school.  They also presented data about the alarming number of Freshmen that were no longer on school rosters by the time they were sophomores.  They claimed that fewer and fewer college programs are willing to be patient and help develop young players, and the instance gratification that comes from transfer portal is leading to many young players being released without fully getting a chance to grow and develop within their program.   

The purpose of this meeting was to essentially tell families to be cautious and understand that recruiting and program commitments to players aren't as sound as they were prior to transfer portal.   The ability for college programs to go into the transfer portal and get older/experienced players has led to a lot of difficult circumstances for a lot of younger players.   

@Ster posted:

That is very unfortunate, that the family failed to listen to quality advice.   I know that the directors of my son's travel team have given similar advice to some of my son's teammates, but the allure of the "big name" is very attractive to players (AND FAMILY).   Last summer, the directors of my son's travel ball team held a meeting with all of the families.   The purpose of the meeting was to share with them that college baseball has changed dramatically over the past couple of years.   Their presentation showed that P5 programs are dropping players that they recruit a much higher incident than they have in years past.  They showed examples of one Power 5 school that dropped four high school seniors in their senior season.  These players had been committed to this school since they were 9th and 10th graders and were informed their senior year that they weren't going to able to attend that school.  They also presented data about the alarming number of Freshmen that were no longer on school rosters by the time they were sophomores.  They claimed that fewer and fewer college programs are willing to be patient and help develop young players, and the instance gratification that comes from transfer portal is leading to many young players being released without fully getting a chance to grow and develop within their program.   

The purpose of this meeting was to essentially tell families to be cautious and understand that recruiting and program commitments to players aren't as sound as they were prior to transfer portal.   The ability for college programs to go into the transfer portal and get older/experienced players has led to a lot of difficult circumstances for a lot of younger players.   

Kudos to your travel ball org for putting on that presentation. Everything you stated is exactly what is going on. Some people, for whatever reason, just refuse to believe it.

Here is the latest update for those that are  following along:

John’s team sits at 14-3 on the season and is currently ranked. So far John has just made one appearance and thrown 5 total pitches. Which means he has used up his first year of eligibility. He doesn’t understand why he isn’t getting more opportunities and his confidence is taking a beating. It’s very questionable (in my mind) if he is mature enough to endure a freshman year like this w/o it having a lasting impact on his mental well being. And that’s something that most players/parents don’t think about until it’s happening to them. John’s current situation was predictable - and therefore could have been avoided. This particular school has a well known history of burying freshman pitchers. But John and his parents were caught up in grabbing the biggest, shiniest brass ring they could reach and didn’t consider the downside if things didn’t go well. Now the team is heading into conference play and future opportunities for John (and others) will be limited to their remaining mid-week games. Things could change but I can read the writing on the wall.

It stinks, but there's only one way out that doesn't involve transferring.  And that's just do everything you can to show out in practice, and especially pens.  Hope the Coach is watching, and treat the pens like you would a a Game 7 save situation.  Go as hard as possible.  No one tells these young guys this, but he's fighting for a spot. And he probably didn't realize that treating practice like a competitive battle was the assignment.   Tough lesson, because he's indeed behind the 8ball now.  But if he gets in midweek, he has to show out.  He has to surprise the Coach and give him a reason to consider him.  And if he can't manage to do that just use this as fodder for summer/fall improvement for next year.   And, frankly, if he's not built to withstand this mental speed bump, then he may not be ready for the job he aspires to.  Not meant to be a criticism, but a rally cry for him to just keep pushing himself beyond the place he thought he needed to be.

Adbono;
Where does the young man plan to pitch this Summer? His Summer League is
now his 1st Season in College. His College season is Spring Training.
Bob

On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 2:53 PM HS Baseball Web <alerts@crowdstack.com>
wrote:

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;
Where does the young man plan to pitch this Summer? His Summer League is
now his 1st Season in College. His College season is Spring Training.
Bob

On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 2:53 PM HS Baseball Web <alerts@crowdstack.com>
wrote:

I just learned yesterday that someone on John’s college coaching staff has made arrangements for him to play in the California Collegiate Summer League. Not sure what team.

Adbono;

Maybe he will play for the Healdsburg "Prunepackers" in a 100 year old ballpark.

Bob

@adbono

It's been almost 3 weeks since you last posted.

Now everyone is into conference play.

What's up with John?

John has not seen the game mound since the one and only outing where he threw a total of 5 pitches. He is frustrated and his confidence is taking a beating. He has met with the HC to discuss his situation - so I have heard. It has also gotten back to me that John doesn’t factor into the future plans at his current school. I don’t know for sure if that’s true but his experience so far this year would suggest that it is. All told John’s freshman year (so far) has been a miserable experience and he has burned a year of eligibility.

@adbono posted:

John has not seen the game mound since the one and only outing where he threw a total of 5 pitches. He is frustrated and his confidence is taking a beating. He has met with the HC to discuss his situation - so I have heard. It has also gotten back to me that John doesn’t factor into the future plans at his current school. I don’t know for sure if that’s true but his experience so far this year would suggest that it is. All told John’s freshman year (so far) has been a miserable experience and he has burned a year of eligibility.

Well, this underscores the importance of selecting a school based upon opportunity and less upon the name and reputation of the program.   The availability of the transfer portal to college baseball coaches has dramatically changed things.   

First, and most obvious, is that it allows coaches to get talent with experience from the transfer portal.  This is obvious.   However the less obvious advantage of the transfer portal to a college baseball coach is that it makes it significantly easier to tell a kid to, "take a hike".    Knowing that a college freshman that you have recruited can, "just get in the transfer portal and find another school, you'll be fine" takes a little bit of the human element out of the decision to cut a scholarship player.   

As a business owner, I have only once had to sit down with an employee and tell them that they are fired, and I agonized over that uncomfortable decision for weeks.   I would like to think that this is true of college coaches (maybe I'm naïve).  But with there being a transfer portal its an easy escape for a coach to tell a freshman that they don't factor in the future of the program and they need to put their name in the transfer portal.   

Stories like John will be more and more common in years to come, I'm afraid. 

I keep reading my 2024 the updates on this thread.  This morning he said, "Wow, I feel sorry for John but I can easily see how that could happen to him."

caveat emptor

Some people listen, some people won't.  Although our circumstances were different than "John's" @adbono reached out to us and offered his advice.  It was free and it was not requested.  But it was a valuable tool that confirmed what we believed our situation to be.

If you would have told us after son's sophomore summer that this is where we'd be, I'd have looked at you crazily, but Covid and and ACL changed the shopping list.  You learn to adapt or you end up like the dinosaurs.  We adapted and son is having a great season at a JUCO starting in CF (366 BA and 526 OBP) and STARTING AND PLAYING almost EVERY GAME.

It's funny, I've had 2 sons go through the whole process (older boy pitched 4 years D1), so I've seen plenty of baseball (high level and not), and more than not I could tell you by watching a kid that was the same age as my boys, whether he had "it" or didn't, and if he would be successful at the level where he was going.  It's interesting that ALOT of the so called "studs" that went D1 are actually sitting ALOT this year............and I'm sure they'll be in the portal soon.  I've told my boy to be on the lookout for any friends that want an opportunity to play, and recruit them to his school next year.

@russinfortworth

Nice story. Thank you. If you read my post on another topic, we have a friend whose son needs to go to a Juco. He doesn't want to hear about it right now. Oh well.

I realize that some folks will blame John's coach and some will blame John's folks. His travel coach, if he had one, might be at fault as well. Usually when teams do well, they will use a player like John. When they are not doing well, they won't. There are a lot of P5 programs that have freshman playing, many gave up the draft to go to play in college. They are kicking it!

However D1 baseball is not HS, and it's not travel ball. There is a learning curve and if no one is working with your player at their program, get them out of THERE!

I feel badly for John that the coach burned a red shirt year.

That's despicable.

I found out last night that John is no longer traveling to away games. On the last road trip this team chose to leave 3 players behind and John was one of them. As if this Big12 team needs to cut a few corners?!? Really? No, this was a message sent IMO.  At this point I’m pretty sure I know where this is headed.

@adbono posted:

I found out last night that John is no longer traveling to away games. On the last road trip this team chose to leave 3 players behind and John was one of them. As if this Big12 team needs to cut a few corners?!? Really? No, this was a message sent IMO.  At this point I’m pretty sure I know where this is headed.

You are 100% correct. It is a tactic used to get kids to leave. Here is what not traveling looks like at our P5 program.

6am lift on Thurs, Fri, Sat, and Sunday. You check in with the lift coach at the facility so they know you went. You also go on Tues/Wed if there is a road midweek game. Lift from 6-8.

After the lift you have a 3.5 hour practice from 10:30 am to 1. No coaches just the players who are not traveling and the injured guys. Tell me how 8 kids can practice for almost four hours?

You then go to the facility where you check in again with your badge and you have to sit and watch the game(s) taking notes/charting for probably another 3.5 hours. 8 if it's a double header.

Do this for 16 weeks straight and tell me if you'd want to stay for another year?

Here is the latest update. Read carefully if you are one of the people that believes every player gets coached and all freshmen get developmental instruction.
Last night John had a long conversation with my pitching coaching partner (Mike). Being concerned about John’s mental state, Mike asked a lot of questions. What he learned was that John is on his own. No coaches are watching his bullpens. Nobody is taking video of them either (unless he can get a teammate to do it) so there is no video analysis from any coaches. So far, according to Mike, John is using this experience as motivation. But he also is feeling very defeated. This is a tough way to learn a tough lesson. And you would hope that this experience will lead to John and his parents making a better decision about what to do next. You would hope.

@adbono posted:

Here is the latest update. Read carefully if you are one of the people that believes every player gets coached and all freshmen get developmental instruction.
Last night John had a long conversation with my pitching coaching partner (Mike). Being concerned about John’s mental state, Mike asked a lot of questions. What he learned was that John is on his own. No coaches are watching his bullpens. Nobody is taking video of them either (unless he can get a teammate to do it) so there is no video analysis from any coaches. So far, according to Mike, John is using this experience as motivation. But he also is feeling very defeated. This is a tough way to learn a tough lesson. And you would hope that this experience will lead to John and his parents making a better decision about what to do next. You would hope.

Good luck to the young man.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Good luck to the young man.

Often your luck is a bi-product of your decisions

Adbono;

It maybe very important to the young man to have a successful College Summer League experience. What do you think? Maybe on the West Coast.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono;

It maybe very important to the young man to have a successful College Summer League experience. What do you think? Maybe on the West Coast.

Bob

You are right, Bob. As usual. That would be the best thing John could do this summer based on current circumstances. But John’s dad is calling the shots and is apparently leaning on an exec at VTool for advice. So he obviously hasn’t learned who to listen to and who to tune out. This development adds to the probability that things could get worse for John instead of better. So far it’s been a blueprint for what not to do.

So I have a kid playing college ball. As such I'll add my .02.

There is no development in college baseball, unless you consider development to consist of being put into a game and expected to perform. Coaches are paid to win games, period. To that ends nor is there any loyalty. That said I have seen DI programs that work with JUCO's, sending down a player they see potential in understanding he may come back later.

My son got the whole "you can stay but you won't play" speech from a B10 school working around taking his scholarship away. Found a mid-tier DI closer to home and after Covid and a year lost to TJ got on the field last year. Missed the first third of the season to injury but still ended up starting left field and being close to the team leaders in runs scored, RBI's, blah, blah, blah. To the point that while being OK with call it quits, they asked him to come back for a 6th year (covid, injury red shirt). FF to this spring and they got a JUCO All American OF'er and they proceeded to give him start after start even though the kid insisted he did no better in practice leading up to the season. The kid has now earned his spot back and all is well. Moral of the story, your kid is a piece of meat, nothing more.

DAD:

Define the word "development".

For 35 years, I have observed the Coaches at SRJC in Santa Rosa and the players, who become professional or advance to a 4 year College have gained knowledge and experience from their 2 years at SRJC.

During this time I coached at SSU & the Cubs N_ Calif. Scout Teams. We played  [Sac City] and other JC with our HS players.

Bob

@somebaseballdad. Man, these stories are something else. My kids are never going pro and I care much more about  academics. So I don't really care what division they play (other than athletic money sounds good to me).  D1 sounds like a great experience for a few and turmoil for many. My 2023 committed to one of the few HA D2s out there in his jr year fall. He then went completely off in the spring HS season winning several awards/1st all state,etc.  People started pumping him up, suggesting he decommit and shoot for a D1.  I love the fact he is confident but I had to repetitively talk him down and stress long term goals (and repeat stories from here).

The 2025 is now the project. I'm worried his eyes are bigger than his fastball. 

@SomeBaseballDad posted:

So I have a kid playing college ball. As such I'll add my .02.

There is no development in college baseball, unless you consider development to consist of being put into a game and expected to perform. Coaches are paid to win games, period. To that ends nor is there any loyalty. That said I have seen DI programs that work with JUCO's, sending down a player they see potential in understanding he may come back later.

..............................

There is no development in college baseball?  Huh?  100% disagree.   

Development is a two way street.   The player has to want to learn, and the coach has to be willing to teach.  With a staff of 3-4 coaches and a team of 30-35 players I think the player has to initiate their own development.   In my work, my team comes up with their own development plan to further their careers.  We talk about the development plan and I assist them when asked.  Its the same thing.   

Stength & conditioning, nutrition, pitching & fielding practice with his position coach 5 days a week, looking at practice and game film, and the opportunity to play college summer baseball.    My son didn't exactly play for a D1 baseball powerhouse, but the skills development and opportunities were there for the learning.   The position coaches worked hard.   He learned new pitches, pitching strategies and approaches as well as stopping the running game.  He learned a great pickoff move in college, and word travels fast in a conference of 8 teams.   A lot of what he learned he initiated, and the coaches helped him.

Just my experience.

@fenwaysouth, people used to wear suits to work everyday too. A lot has changed in college baseball since your son played. College baseball is now big business. It didn’t used to be. Due to Covid there are now athletes playing 6 years of college baseball. That’s never been the case before. There is an over supply of players like never before too. Add the impact of the transfer portal and NIL and you have chaos. Many top programs (especially D1s) don’t want to spend 2 years developing a freshman that may or may not work out when, for the same scholarship dollars, they can get 2 proven players out of the transfer portal. It’s both less risk and a better ROI. It’s a business decision. It’s also easier and you get your return sooner. It’s an easier, more efficient business model. In theory and for right now. But a lot of schools have adopted it. I know this because, not only do I see it happening with my own eyes, more than a few D1 coaches have told me that this is what they are doing. Comparing development in the workplace to development in college baseball is a reach at best. You are talking about adults vs 18 yr old kids. But you wouldn’t see college players signing up for Tread Athletics at $500/mo if they were being developed at their schools. I’m glad that your son had a good experience. It’s the kid that everyone hopes for. But right now that experience only exists for a fraction of college players. And what makes up that fraction are the players that have position coaches that actively teach the game. Even then those position coaches may only be helping the players that are on the field contributing. There would not be so many posters that currently have sons playing college baseball talking about the lack of development if it wasn’t a real issue. They problem with this issue, as with many others, is that if your player didn’t experience it then it’s sometimes hard to believe. But there is a reason that so many Drivelines, Treads, etc have popped up over the last 10 years. And the reason is that there is a huge appetite for development that isn’t being satisfied in college baseball. Right now is a great time to be one of the very best players in college baseball. It’s a terrible time to be anything less than that.

And I will add this as an afterthought. Even if you do have a position coach that is actively trying to teach and develop players there is a possibility that he isn’t very good at it. His direction may be more hurtful than helpful. What if a PC decides that your son will be the subject of his sidearm experiment and makes him change his arm slot. And then that doesn’t work out and your player has to change back. Now let’s mention the inevitable injury that occurred somewhere in that process. Sound crazy? It does to me but it goes on a lot because it’s fashionable for every PC to have a sidearm thrower on their staff. So they try to create one. And in doing so often wreck a kid’s career. That’s just one example.

@adbono posted:

@fenwaysouth, people used to wear suits to work everyday too. A lot has changed in college baseball since your son played. College baseball is now big business. It didn’t used to be. Due to Covid there are now athletes playing 6 years of college baseball. That’s never been the case before. There is an over supply of players like never before too. Add the impact of the transfer portal and NIL and you have chaos. Many top programs (especially D1s) don’t want to spend 2 years developing a freshman that may or may not work out when, for the same scholarship dollars, they can get 2 proven players out of the transfer portal. It’s both less risk and a better ROI. It’s a business decision. It’s also easier and you get your return sooner. It’s an easier, more efficient business model. In theory and for right now. But a lot of schools have adopted it. I know this because, not only do I see it happening with my own eyes, more than a few D1 coaches have told me that this is what they are doing. Comparing development in the workplace to development in college baseball is a reach at best. You are talking about adults vs 18 yr old kids. But you wouldn’t see college players signing up for Tread Athletics at $500/mo if they were being developed at their schools. I’m glad that your son had a good experience. It’s the kid that everyone hopes for. But right now that experience only exists for a fraction of college players. And what makes up that fraction are the players that have position coaches that actively teach the game. Even then those position coaches may only be helping the players that are on the field contributing. There would not be so many posters that currently have sons playing college baseball talking about the lack of development if it wasn’t a real issue. They problem with this issue, as with many others, is that if your player didn’t experience it then it’s sometimes hard to believe. But there is a reason that so many Drivelines, Treads, etc have popped up over the last 10 years. And the reason is that there is a huge appetite for development that isn’t being satisfied in college baseball. Right now is a great time to be one of the very best players in college baseball. It’s a terrible time to be anything less than that.

Fair enough, you've convinced me somewhat.  Yes, my son has been out for about 10 years.   So this explanation makes sense to me given Covid 6-year NCAA rules.  It's got to be a difficult pill to swallow if your son is playing college baseball (hopefully under some kind of scholly) and the parent/player is paying for the education, athletic opportunity, and then on top of that they're paying for Tread/DriveLine at $500/month because their coach can't spare the time or is unwilling to develop his own player.   I can tell you without hesitation that if my son was in the position today, he would not have played college baseball for a handful of reasons.  Essentially, the coach is acknowledging he'd rather spend the balance of his time recruiting JUCO players that have been previously trained by another coach than working with his current players.   If this is the true state of college baseball this paints a pretty freaking sad and vastly different picture of college coaches than just a few years ago.   I'll take your word on it @adbono

BTW....My Dad wore a suit to work!  Not me!

My son left college baseball last year. This wasn't his experience. He was a Sunday starter for about a month before COVID, came back post COVID as a sometimes starter, sometimes reliever, etc. He was coached. He had coaches at his bullpen's, reviewing video, texting with him when he was away from school on break or whatever. And yes, they also talked with him about whether something like driveline would be useful to him and they made recommendations on other resources he could consult.  He had two different PCs during his time at Iowa, I think he still asks for their advice from time to time.

Part of it may be that the University of Iowa is going to struggle to recruit people to come here (other than Iowans) unless they show a serious track record of making players better. It also may be that we just got lucky. Either way, feel terrible for kids who don't encounter that support.

I don't know why people make it seem like 4 coaches for 35 players is a problem. It's not like they work a 9-5 and then go coach college baseball. It's what they do. Development is one of the job requirements along with recruiting players that they can develop.

It's a pretty sad commentary that it is normal for a pitcher to not have success and the coaching staff not actively working with the player to get some value out of him. Maybe the kid isn't a weekend starter, but maybe he can be by the time he's a junior. Maybe he isn't a closer, but he might be a guy who comes in and throws to two lefties, maybe he's long relief, maybe he's short relief. Wouldn't you want one of the guys you were invested in to succeed? I don't understand the seek help argument. If the PC can't see that velo is down, there are mechanical issues, can't alter prep work/throwing programs then I find that to be really pathetic.

One of mine is having a bit of a velo problem. Sometimes it's lower than it was in HS and when it's down he's getting hit more. I think it's a problem that he was told to go spend a month at driveline this summer in lieu of playing in a summer league. I think it's annoying that he has too many credits for any type of transfer to be worth it academically or financially. I think it's a problem that two freshman who struggled were told to leave and they've both been drafted since.

I get it - there are some cutting edge coaches who care about their kids and turn them into better players. I also understand that there are plenty of players who don't work hard, don't eat right, don't put in extra work and they can't be helped. But there is a meaty chunk of players in programs that are subject to the numbers game and it sucks that there are contributors who don't get the opportunity because it's too inconvenient for a coaching staff to *coach*

@adbono posted:

@fenwaysouth, people used to wear suits to work everyday too. A lot has changed in college baseball since your son played. College baseball is now big business. It didn’t used to be. Due to Covid there are now athletes playing 6 years of college baseball. That’s never been the case before. There is an over supply of players like never before too. Add the impact of the transfer portal and NIL and you have chaos. Many top programs (especially D1s) don’t want to spend 2 years developing a freshman that may or may not work out when, for the same scholarship dollars, they can get 2 proven players out of the transfer portal. It’s both less risk and a better ROI. It’s a business decision. It’s also easier and you get your return sooner. It’s an easier, more efficient business model. In theory and for right now. But a lot of schools have adopted it. I know this because, not only do I see it happening with my own eyes, more than a few D1 coaches have told me that this is what they are doing. Comparing development in the workplace to development in college baseball is a reach at best. You are talking about adults vs 18 yr old kids. But you wouldn’t see college players signing up for Tread Athletics at $500/mo if they were being developed at their schools. I’m glad that your son had a good experience. It’s the kid that everyone hopes for. But right now that experience only exists for a fraction of college players. And what makes up that fraction are the players that have position coaches that actively teach the game. Even then those position coaches may only be helping the players that are on the field contributing. There would not be so many posters that currently have sons playing college baseball talking about the lack of development if it wasn’t a real issue. They problem with this issue, as with many others, is that if your player didn’t experience it then it’s sometimes hard to believe. But there is a reason that so many Drivelines, Treads, etc have popped up over the last 10 years. And the reason is that there is a huge appetite for development that isn’t being satisfied in college baseball. Right now is a great time to be one of the very best players in college baseball. It’s a terrible time to be anything less than that.

There are two conversations to be had regarding D1. There are those programs who are either competing for the CWS or believe they are. Then there's the rest of D1. An Ivy isn't going to load up on transfers and JuCo players. A lot of the rest of D1 aren't going to have the recruiting budget, facilities or access to NIL money to lure players and have high turnover. But, for P5s and a handful of other teams roster spots have become the Wild West. Even before recruiting became the Wild West about half of freshmen transferred from their first stop.

@fenwaysouth posted:

There is no development in college baseball?  Huh?  100% disagree.   

Development is a two way street.   The player has to want to learn, and the coach has to be willing to teach.  With a staff of 3-4 coaches and a team of 30-35 players I think the player has to initiate their own development.   In my work, my team comes up with their own development plan to further their careers.  We talk about the development plan and I assist them when asked.  Its the same thing.   

Stength & conditioning, nutrition, pitching & fielding practice with his position coach 5 days a week, looking at practice and game film, and the opportunity to play college summer baseball.    My son didn't exactly play for a D1 baseball powerhouse, but the skills development and opportunities were there for the learning.   The position coaches worked hard.   He learned new pitches, pitching strategies and approaches as well as stopping the running game.  He learned a great pickoff move in college, and word travels fast in a conference of 8 teams.   A lot of what he learned he initiated, and the coaches helped him.

Just my experience.

I agree with the above.

Coaching is teaching and achieving goals. It should include all that Fenway mentioned. The coach and staff have an obligation to help the player to achieve those goals. It can be achieved differently in different programs. As pointed out by Fenway, there are many involved in helping players to achieve their best results. We all know it takes a village to raise a child, same goes for athletes.

Sorry to repeat this story. It's about Florida's Wyatt Langford. He didn't play much as a freshman. He wasn't happy and decided the change had to come from within. He changed everything about himself, his diet, his workouts, his practices, his attitude. Hours in the cages, hours in the gym. Players that hold themselves to a higher standard, usually succeed. It's those that think they are owed more than they are getting usually don't succeed. There are those players who can blame the coaches all they want but I will bet that they have been given opportunities and tools to succeed but don't work as hard at becoming better when left on their own. It's always easy to blame someone else.

Back to Wyatt. He was recently injured while fouling a ball off of his groin and ruptured a testical. Required immediate surgery. Wasn't sure of prognosis and how long he had to rehab, was back in the game after 2 weeks. Can't keep a good man down! The best part, the team held it together while waiting for his return.

I just found out recently that quite a few hitters while son was in college, sought out better hitting instruction. One drafted first round. So this is not a new thing, it's been going on for years.  There are many D1 programs that have their players evaluated by outside sources to see where the player is deficient. Goals are set to help the player improve. FAU evaluated players with the Cressey team. The athletic trainer is made aware of the needs and monitors the results. Again, it takes a village.  A player cannot succeed unless he/ she is physically able to compete. There are training centers everywhere. Here in FL, you will find pros, college players, HS and youth players in the gym and all types of players in the cages.

IMO, if a parent wants to spend their money on additional training, that's their business. Coaches only have so much time allowed to work with players. After their allotted instruction, it's up to the player to follow through on what he needs to work on to improve. That's on them, not the coach. How many of your players work their butts off every chance they can?

Now about John. I want to know, has John done everything he can to improve his game, on his own? Sounds like Johns dad is involved. Fall and spring instruction are long over, time to stop blaming the staff and get to work.

@TPM, I believe that John has done all that he can to get better. I know it’s not always the case but with John I believe the school is the one at fault.

@adbono posted:

@TPM, I believe that John has done all that he can to get better. I know it’s not always the case but with John I believe the school is the one at fault.

That's a fair statement. Sounds like he just doesn't belong there.

Time to move on.

@adbono posted:

And I will add this as an afterthought. Even if you do have a position coach that is actively trying to teach and develop players there is a possibility that he isn’t very good at it. His direction may be more hurtful than helpful. What if a PC decides that your son will be the subject of his sidearm experiment and makes him change his arm slot. And then that doesn’t work out and your player has to change back. Now let’s mention the inevitable injury that occurred somewhere in that process. Sound crazy? It does to me but it goes on a lot because it’s fashionable for every PC to have a sidearm thrower on their staff. So they try to create one. And in doing so often wreck a kid’s career. That’s just one example.

100%. We had 2 guys from our recruiting class turned into sidearmers. Both have dealt with injuries off and on. Although it was never mentioned to us, my son’s arm slot was changed the minute he stepped on campus. When it doesn’t work, you are left to figure it out.  Happens with hitters too.  Even when it’s not broke, sometimes they need to “fix” it.

@fenwaysouth posted:

There is no development in college baseball?  Huh?  100% disagree.   

That's your prerogative.

The kid went as a two way. His freshman year the team had like 4-5 pitchers go down with injuries, so the staff pushed him into PO. I'm not going into detail but.. we picked this school based on the HC. The PC coach ended up being a problem. PO didn't work out, so sophomore year it was back to position player. Thing is he had lost a year seeing live pitching, so the start of the season he struggled and was benched. At the time he still had a very high level MLB scout working with him. In a conversation with him he stated that college coaches were under such pressure to win that they has no time to let a player dig himself out of a slump. To that point, if the team lost a couple, three, four games in a row the forums would fill up with "fire the coach/lets go a different direction" threads.

BTW, the first batter the kid faced right out of HS was Nick Madrigal.

For those who read this and don't know the people involved, fenway's son went to an Ivy League school, most of the other people are posting about experiences at P5 schools.  It's kind of like apples and oranges.

There are many people who would like to coach baseball.  Are most of them no good at development?  Are the ones who are good scooped up by MLB/MiLB?  Or earning more money working for Driveline or Tread?

In other words, is the problem (a) there aren't enough pitching coaches at the college level who are capable of developing their players, (b) most coaches have to do too many other things and don't have time to develop their players, or (c) most coaches don't see the need to try to develop their players because they can easily bring in transfers who have been developed by someone else?

And, how do these juco and lower-level schools' coaches have more skills or more time to develop their players than the P5 coaches?

It’s extremely difficult to be an impact player at the college level as a freshman, regardless of the coaching. My son was not an impact freshman at the Juco level.

IMO the combination of relationships with the coaching staff, ability, execution, perceived ceiling, work ethic, timing and luck all play into every players’ college opportunity. I’ve seen players at the Juco level that didn’t get opportunity, change school, and thrive. I watched a physically dominant freshman get no playing time at a P5 school, transfer to a Juco and get drafted in the 1^st round.

Some coaches add a lot of value to some players and none to others. I know my son values what he learned from working his pitching coach at the D1 level.

I’m a I’ll put gas in the car, you need to drive parent and my son has owned his development choices since HS. I’d have liked him to play college summer ball, but he always chose to train. He felt he needed to supplement his college coaching in the offseason to be his best (now it’s his job, and he still trains the entire offseason).  

This is a great thread because it has evolved into firsthand stories of college experience. No two are the same and there is no blueprint. Just real life examples of what can happen.

@JucoDad posted:

It’s extremely difficult to be an impact player at the college level as a freshman, regardless of the coaching. My son was not an impact freshman at the Juco level.

IMO the combination of relationships with the coaching staff, ability, execution, perceived ceiling, work ethic, timing and luck all play into every players’ college opportunity. I’ve seen players at the Juco level that didn’t get opportunity, change school, and thrive. I watched a physically dominant freshman get no playing time at a P5 school, transfer to a Juco and get drafted in the 1^st round.

Some coaches add a lot of value to some players and none to others. I know my son values what he learned from working his pitching coach at the D1 level.

I’m a I’ll put gas in the car, you need to drive parent and my son has owned his development choices since HS. I’d have liked him to play college summer ball, but he always chose to train. He felt he needed to supplement his college coaching in the offseason to be his best (now it’s his job, and he still trains the entire offseason).  

Refreshing post Jucodad.

Thank you!

I think it’s important to note than winning and developing are not always the same thing. Coaches that are highly paid, win. If you are lucky, they also care about the kids and develop them both as players and men. That is rare. MLB coaches manage.  College is becoming more of a management gig with the portal and NIL. They (more and more) prefer you to develop elsewhere and they will “bring you up” when you are ready.

@baseballhs posted:

I think it’s important to note than winning and developing are not always the same thing. Coaches that are highly paid, win. If you are lucky, they also care about the kids and develop them both as players and men. That is rare. MLB coaches manage.  College is becoming more of a management gig with the portal and NIL. They (more and more) prefer you to develop elsewhere and they will “bring you up” when you are ready.

Very well said. This is the reality for most players.

adbono, baseballhs

I find it kind of shocking that the Big12 and Big10 have only 1 or 2 teams (combined) in the top 25 RPI. Does this have to do with the programs in those conferences lack of development, NLI $, use of the portal or that other teams are just working harder at getting better?

@anotherparent posted:

For those who read this and don't know the people involved, fenway's son went to an Ivy League school, most of the other people are posting about experiences at P5 schools.  It's kind of like apples and oranges.

..........................................

True, but I think the real difference is Covid and NCAA transfer policies that have thrown a monkey wrench in the development of a typical 4-5 year D1 baseball career outward to a 6 year baseball college baseball career including graduate transfers in some cases.   This is the big development change that coaches are dealing with or not dealing with as the case may be.  adbono did a pretty good job of convincing me this is at the heart of the development issue, and I believe it.

In the fast moving world of Information Technology  this is known as the "build vs buy" continuum.  College baseball coaches seem to adopted this mindset.  I can "buy" talent easier, faster, quicker to compete than I can "build" which is less expensive but takes more time.

JMO. 

@TPM posted:

adbono, baseballhs

I find it kind of shocking that the Big12 and Big10 have only 1 or 2 teams (combined) in the top 25 RPI. Does this have to do with the programs in those conferences lack of development, NLI $, use of the portal or that other teams are just working harder at getting better?

Big10 is definitely the weakest P5, but the conference has been really down since COVID hit. UCLA/USC will make it a stronger conference. I think traveling for the first month of the season hurts a lot of these schools. Playing higher RPI teams after having limited outdoor work is not a recipe for success. Usually by the end of the season the programs at the top turn the early season struggles around and typically make nice runs in the tournament - typically 2 in finals of regionals each year.  

I also think there are a few teams that are better than their RPI (TCU, Tech, Iowa) but that is neither here nor there.

Big 12 baseball will be interesting. A year or two ago adding Houston, Cincy, and UCF would have been the best possible way to offset Texas and Oklahoma leaving. Houston has been an interesting team this year - some really good wins with an average record. UCF has been down since starting red hot. I hope they stay competitive heading into the Big 12, they have solid baseball.

@fenwaysouth posted:

True, but I think the real difference is Covid and NCAA transfer policies that have thrown a monkey wrench in the development of a typical 4-5 year D1 baseball career outward to a 6 year baseball college baseball career including graduate transfers in some cases.   This is the big development change that coaches are dealing with or not dealing with as the case may be.  adbono did a pretty good job of convincing me this is at the heart of the development issue, and I believe it.

In the fast moving world of Information Technology  this is known as the "build vs buy" continuum.  College baseball coaches seem to adopted this mindset.  I can "buy" talent easier, faster, quicker to compete than I can "build" which is less expensive but takes more time.

JMO.

Well said. I will take issue with your last sentence however and I will explain why in a hypothetical example. Say a HS pitcher that would normally be recruited hard by good D1 programs believes he deserves a 50% scholarship. He believes this because every travel ball coach and PC that he has ever had have told him how great he is. Then he sees VTool, PBR, and PG touting him on social media. So he is sold that the market price for his services is a 50% deal - but he is assuming these are normal times. And they are not. Right now the D1 schools have the option of plucking proven players out of the transfer portal. Besides being proven the players in the portal are hungry. Many have already been slighted once. Many don’t care how much money they get. They just want an opportunity to play. So for that same 50% a school can get 2 or 3 proven guys out of the portal instead of 1 HS kid that may or may not pan out. And they avoid having to convince the HS player that he isn’t worth what he thinks he is. So in the current college baseball business model “buying” is actually cheaper than “building.” One of many problems, as I see it, is the issue of culture. Culture is much easier to build than buy.

Although I’m not sure, most coaches ever looked at a P5 HS commit as a four year deal, I think they now look at it more as a one year trial in terms of freshman. If you come in as a freshman and they don’t see immediately that you are ready to go, you won’t be there your second year. In our program, there are  6 remaining of the 14 that showed up last year. Five are on the current roster.

The rule that P5 scholarships have to be for 4 years is pretty recent.  Perhaps they should go back to the old system, of only guaranteeing one year at a time, since that's how they are operating in practice.

@anotherparent posted:

The rule that P5 scholarships have to be for 4 years is pretty recent.  Perhaps they should go back to the old system, of only guaranteeing one year at a time, since that's how they are operating in practice.

I think it started in 2016 or 2017.

@fenwaysouth posted:

True, but I think the real difference is Covid and NCAA transfer policies that have thrown a monkey wrench in the development of a typical 4-5 year D1 baseball career outward to a 6 year baseball college baseball career including graduate transfers in some cases.   This is the big development change that coaches are dealing with or not dealing with as the case may be.  adbono did a pretty good job of convincing me this is at the heart of the development issue, and I believe it.

In the fast moving world of Information Technology  this is known as the "build vs buy" continuum.  College baseball coaches seem to adopted this mindset.  I can "buy" talent easier, faster, quicker to compete than I can "build" which is less expensive but takes more time.

JMO.

I can say this has changed my son's HA D3. They have at least 4 players that are covid or xfers. This is the first time the team has done this many and I would suspect given their success it will not end. I told my kid you are 100% on my 4 year plan or find a good student loan provider.

@anotherparent posted:

The rule that P5 scholarships have to be for 4 years is pretty recent.  Perhaps they should go back to the old system, of only guaranteeing one year at a time, since that's how they are operating in practice.

I don’t even hate Gundy’s idea that you sign a 1,2,3 or 4 year scholarship deal….but it actually means something on both sides.

@adbono posted:

Here is the latest update. Read carefully if you are one of the people that believes every player gets coached and all freshmen get developmental instruction.
Last night John had a long conversation with my pitching coaching partner (Mike). Being concerned about John’s mental state, Mike asked a lot of questions. What he learned was that John is on his own. No coaches are watching his bullpens. Nobody is taking video of them either (unless he can get a teammate to do it) so there is no video analysis from any coaches. So far, according to Mike, John is using this experience as motivation. But he also is feeling very defeated. This is a tough way to learn a tough lesson. And you would hope that this experience will lead to John and his parents making a better decision about what to do next. You would hope.

pretty much par for the course with us also...

@adbono posted:

@fenwaysouth, people used to wear suits to work everyday too. A lot has changed in college baseball since your son played. College baseball is now big business. It didn’t used to be. Due to Covid there are now athletes playing 6 years of college baseball. That’s never been the case before. There is an over supply of players like never before too. Add the impact of the transfer portal and NIL and you have chaos. Many top programs (especially D1s) don’t want to spend 2 years developing a freshman that may or may not work out when, for the same scholarship dollars, they can get 2 proven players out of the transfer portal. It’s both less risk and a better ROI. It’s a business decision. It’s also easier and you get your return sooner. It’s an easier, more efficient business model. In theory and for right now. But a lot of schools have adopted it. I know this because, not only do I see it happening with my own eyes, more than a few D1 coaches have told me that this is what they are doing. Comparing development in the workplace to development in college baseball is a reach at best. You are talking about adults vs 18 yr old kids. But you wouldn’t see college players signing up for Tread Athletics at $500/mo if they were being developed at their schools. I’m glad that your son had a good experience. It’s the kid that everyone hopes for. But right now that experience only exists for a fraction of college players. And what makes up that fraction are the players that have position coaches that actively teach the game. Even then those position coaches may only be helping the players that are on the field contributing. There would not be so many posters that currently have sons playing college baseball talking about the lack of development if it wasn’t a real issue. They problem with this issue, as with many others, is that if your player didn’t experience it then it’s sometimes hard to believe. But there is a reason that so many Drivelines, Treads, etc have popped up over the last 10 years. And the reason is that there is a huge appetite for development that isn’t being satisfied in college baseball. Right now is a great time to be one of the very best players in college baseball. It’s a terrible time to be anything less than that.

Nailed it - 1 billion % !

@fishnsail posted:

Nailed it - 1 billion % !

Thank you. I’m here all week. Try the veal and don’t forget to tip your waitress!

@adbono posted:

Thank you. I’m here all week. Try the veal and don’t forget to tip your waitress!

LOL.. I had the lasagna..
honestly though -this site should bookmark that post and highlight it for all the HS players /parents and future/current college players with unknown expectations.
An eye opener it has been and no truer words have been spoken(or written or whatever)...
the game has changed and keeps changing not that fluidly at times. 

Adbono, fishnsail, TPM;

Game has not changed. Players need 4 of the 6 tools to succeed. Coaches need the experience to recognize the player's toolbox.  Parents need the knowledge to prepare the young man at age 14 for his future College opportunity.

Question: why have a rooster of 40 when only 20 will play?

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono, fishnsail, TPM;

Game has not changed. Players need 4 of the 6 tools to succeed. Coaches need the experience to recognize the player's toolbox.  Parents need the knowledge to prepare the young man at age 14 for his future College opportunity.

Bob,

Some may disagree but I get what you are saying.

@SomeBaseballDad posted:

That's your prerogative.

The kid went as a two way. His freshman year the team had like 4-5 pitchers go down with injuries, so the staff pushed him into PO. I'm not going into detail but.. we picked this school based on the HC. The PC coach ended up being a problem. PO didn't work out, so sophomore year it was back to position player. Thing is he had lost a year seeing live pitching, so the start of the season he struggled and was benched. At the time he still had a very high level MLB scout working with him. In a conversation with him he stated that college coaches were under such pressure to win that they have no time to let a player dig himself out of a slump. To that point, if the team lost a couple, three, four games in a row the forums would fill up with "fire the coach/lets go a different direction" threads.

BTW, the first batter the kid faced right out of HS was Nick Madrigal.

Wanted to point out a correction here. In the original post it read "coaches were under such pressure they have time to let a player dig himself out of a slump". Changed it to read have no time.

@adbono posted:

This is a great thread because it has evolved into firsthand stories of college experience. No two are the same and there is no blueprint. Just real life examples of what can happen.

OK, so here goes. The kid could have been drafted right out of HS, but like rounds 30-40. I was under no illusion that the kid would ever step foot on an MLB field, so I said no. I wanted him to have the college experience. The kid went as a two-way but pitching was an afterthought although he was pretty dam good at it. So, as I said his college team had some injuries. Now, here's some advice, be careful what you say, because in interviews prior to the season the kid said, "I'll do whatever I can to help". So when the HC asked him to do PO he threw that statement back in his face.

As to the scout, he became the director of scouting for an MLB team while going out of his was to help the kid find a new college after he refused to be a PO for a new coach and promptly being dismissed. The next year he had to have TJ and that was it. The guy never responded to a text or call from the kid again. He did a lot for the kid and for that I'll always be grateful, but the whole not returning a call thing.... that was disappointing.

@PABaseball posted:

Big10 is definitely the weakest P5, but the conference has been really down since COVID hit. UCLA/USC will make it a stronger conference. I think traveling for the first month of the season hurts a lot of these schools. Playing higher RPI teams after having limited outdoor work is not a recipe for success. Usually by the end of the season the programs at the top turn the early season struggles around and typically make nice runs in the tournament - typically 2 in finals of regionals each year.  

I also think there are a few teams that are better than their RPI (TCU, Tech, Iowa) but that is neither here nor there.

Big 12 baseball will be interesting. A year or two ago adding Houston, Cincy, and UCF would have been the best possible way to offset Texas and Oklahoma leaving. Houston has been an interesting team this year - some really good wins with an average record. UCF has been down since starting red hot. I hope they stay competitive heading into the Big 12, they have solid baseball.

We are top 25 RPI and 2-1 vs B10. Another mid-week B10 game then Vanderbilt next week. I understand both will not start their best pitchers but still a yardstick for our team. I'd assume we'll get our buts kicked as we are not deep pitching wise.

@SomeBaseballDad posted:

We are top 25 RPI and 2-1 vs B10. Another mid-week B10 game then Vanderbilt next week. I understand both will not start their best pitchers but still a yardstick for our team. I'd assume we'll get our buts kicked as we are not deep pitching wise.

I don't think the conference is weak by any stretch - just not near the level of ACC or SEC top to bottom.

If your son is at the school I think he is - I think it's a very underrated program and they will fare well. Midweeks are usually higher scoring, uglier games anyway.

This is a great thread!  I hope parents in this situation really pay attention to these experiences.  Like someone mentioned on here, for the studs it usually turns out great in D1.  The others not so much.  Several in my son's class committed to OK State.  Only one remains as a hitter, the rest went to the portal or dropped down to D2.  One was drafted.  One was at OK State and played very little and transferred to another D1 and was drafted b a mlb team.  There are several pitchers from the area on the team, but most of OK State hitters are not from Oklahoma. 

As far as development, I can speak for son's school (D2).  Right now, this year there is no hitting coach.  If a player goes in a slump he's on his own to figure it out.  My son relies on his hs coach to help but he's in the middle of his season and has a large, young family and isnt available often.  Last year we had a hitting coach and son had a big year power wise.  That coach left and this year his power numbers are way down.  I guess what I'm saying is that development is basically on their own.  Ive offered mine to go to a hitting instructor locally but he has little time and I dont think he wants to see one on the outside, but idk why that is.  Players that play for a school that has a good or great hitting/pitching coach should consider themselves very fortunate.  It would be wonderful to have that extra pair of eyes available to help when things go south or just need a little tweak here and there.

Ed;

Does your son have access to game films? He can study his swings in 2 segments. Upper half {waist up to eyes] and lower half [waist down to feet]. One half could be the problem not the "whole".

Also use the full length mirror to practice his swing. The majority of "hitting" slumps are vision. Not tracking the pitch from release point to the catchers mitt. When your pitcher warms up in the bullpen stand next to the plate and "track" the ball.

Watch Juan Soto {Padres] when he tracks the pitch. Also his swing stays in the "strike path" longer than the majority of MLB hitters.

Bob

thanks Bob.  I will share your thoughts with him.

Interesting comments from Dickie V. Same applies to college baseball.