Runner at first. Batter tries to bunt the runner to second. The pitcher tries to get the runner going to second and is not in time. All safe. How do you score the batter now at first? Is it a FC or a hit since no out was recorded?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
FC. Pitcher chose to go for the out with the lead runner and not the out at first.
This is from a post by RPD in the "Umpires" section that covers this exact play.
RPD
Member
Posted May 05, 2009 09:10 PM
Great question ... actually more suited to the "Scorekeeping" section. But that being said, rather than guessing or going by feel, let's go to the rulebook (OBR).
10.08 (b) "Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base ..."
That's exactly what happened here, so it looks like it should be scored as a sacrifice. But then the rule goes on:
"...unless ...in the judgment of the official scorer ordinary effort would not have put out the batter at first base, in which case the batter shall be credited with a one-base hit and not a sacrifice;"
So that's it -- sac or a single ...scorekeepers judgment.
RPD
Member
Posted May 05, 2009 09:10 PM
Great question ... actually more suited to the "Scorekeeping" section. But that being said, rather than guessing or going by feel, let's go to the rulebook (OBR).
10.08 (b) "Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base ..."
That's exactly what happened here, so it looks like it should be scored as a sacrifice. But then the rule goes on:
"...unless ...in the judgment of the official scorer ordinary effort would not have put out the batter at first base, in which case the batter shall be credited with a one-base hit and not a sacrifice;"
So that's it -- sac or a single ...scorekeepers judgment.
It's a sacrifice and a fielder's choice. The hitter is not charged with an at bat. UNLESS the hitter was going to beat the throw to first for a hit. It's a judgement call. Chances are it's the former.quote:Originally posted by mrtarheel:
Runner at first. Batter tries to bunt the runner to second. The pitcher tries to get the runner going to second and is not in time. All safe. How do you score the batter now at first? Is it a FC or a hit since no out was recorded?
RJM,
Are you saying that the BATTER gets credited with a fielder's choice AND a sacrifice?? That's not possible -- he can never get credited for both.
From a scorekeeping standpoint, FC doesn't enter into this scenario in any way -- for the batter or the runner.
Are you saying that the BATTER gets credited with a fielder's choice AND a sacrifice?? That's not possible -- he can never get credited for both.
From a scorekeeping standpoint, FC doesn't enter into this scenario in any way -- for the batter or the runner.
The hitter gets credited with a sacrifice. In the book it's also a fielder's choice. If the fielder choses to go after the lead runner and fails when he could have thrown out the hitter on the sacrifice, it's a fielder's choice in the book.quote:Originally posted by RPD:
RJM,
Are you saying that the BATTER gets credited with a fielder's choice AND a sacrifice?? That's not possible -- he can never get credited for both.
From a scorekeeping standpoint, FC doesn't enter into this scenario in any way -- for the batter or the runner.
RJM -- with all due respect ...
If crediting the batter with a sacrifice results in 0-0, and crediting him with a FC results in 0-1, how can you credit him for both?
If it had been the same scenario with a regular ground ball (not a bunt), then it's still scorekeepers judgment -- and the choices are FC or base hit.
Because this was a bunt, specific rules apply (10.08 (b)) -- and the only choices are sac or base hit.
If crediting the batter with a sacrifice results in 0-0, and crediting him with a FC results in 0-1, how can you credit him for both?
If it had been the same scenario with a regular ground ball (not a bunt), then it's still scorekeepers judgment -- and the choices are FC or base hit.
Because this was a bunt, specific rules apply (10.08 (b)) -- and the only choices are sac or base hit.
I didn't say to credit the hitter with a fielder's choice. But from a fielding standpoint it's exactly what it is.quote:Originally posted by RPD:
RJM -- with all due respect ...
If crediting the batter with a sacrifice results in 0-0, and crediting him with a FC results in 0-1, how can you credit him for both?
If it had been the same scenario with a regular ground ball (not a bunt), then it's still scorekeepers judgment -- and the choices are FC or base hit.
Because this was a bunt, specific rules apply (10.08 (b)) -- and the only choices are sac or base hit.
I don't get everything you guys are trying to say. My assumption is that the pitcher went to second with his throw because he thought he had a chance at the lead runner BUT the batter could have been thrown out had the pitcher decided to go that route.
If this is true (batter would have been out) then it is a sacrafice but if the batter was safe ONLY because the pitcher chose to go to 2B then it can only be a fielder's choice......unless there was no chance for the pitcher to get the runner going to 2B.
10.08 (a) gives specific examples. Here is the beginning of 10.8 (a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at firstbase, or would have been put out except for a fielding error, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, the batter was bunting exclusively for a base hit and not sacrificing his own chance of reaching first base for the purpose of advancing a runner or runners, in which case the official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat;"
This portion could aplly if it weren't for 10.08 (b0 and (c):
(b) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base, unless, an attempt to turn a bunt into a putout of a preceding runner fails, and in the judgment of the official scorer ordinary effort would not have put out the batter at first base, in which case the batter shall be credited with a one-base hit and not a sacrifice;
(c) Not score a sacrifice bunt when any runner is put out attempting to advance one base on a bunt, in which case the official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat
In 10.8 (a) the advancing runner was safe not because of an error. 10.08 (b)doesn't apply because the putout attempt was a success. Therefore 10.08 (c) applies.
If this is true (batter would have been out) then it is a sacrafice but if the batter was safe ONLY because the pitcher chose to go to 2B then it can only be a fielder's choice......unless there was no chance for the pitcher to get the runner going to 2B.
10.08 (a) gives specific examples. Here is the beginning of 10.8 (a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at firstbase, or would have been put out except for a fielding error, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, the batter was bunting exclusively for a base hit and not sacrificing his own chance of reaching first base for the purpose of advancing a runner or runners, in which case the official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat;"
This portion could aplly if it weren't for 10.08 (b0 and (c):
(b) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base, unless, an attempt to turn a bunt into a putout of a preceding runner fails, and in the judgment of the official scorer ordinary effort would not have put out the batter at first base, in which case the batter shall be credited with a one-base hit and not a sacrifice;
(c) Not score a sacrifice bunt when any runner is put out attempting to advance one base on a bunt, in which case the official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat
In 10.8 (a) the advancing runner was safe not because of an error. 10.08 (b)doesn't apply because the putout attempt was a success. Therefore 10.08 (c) applies.
quote:Originally posted by jfsbndr:
10.08 (b)doesn't apply because the putout attempt was a success.
Huh? The put out attempt at second failed.
The third post in this thread (12's Dads quoting RPD) is correct. 10.08(b) covers the OP situation exactly.
I had a great reply with all the references pasted in when my router crapped out and I lost the little display window. I'll try a shorter version...
Basically, nowhere in the rules does it say a fielder's choice is an at bat. It does say,
10.02 (a) The following records for each batter and runner:
(1) Number of times batted, except that no time at bat shall be charged when a player
(i) hits a sacrifice bunt or sacrifice fly;
(ii) is awarded first base on four called balls;
(iii) is hit by a pitched ball; or
(iv) is awarded first base because of interference or obstruction;
Throughout the rules, conditions where at bats are charged or not charged are defined. Many of these deal with more common fielder's choice conditions,
10.05 (b) "The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;"
The case in question is not defined explicitly.
I think it boils down to what 12's dad posted originally.
10.08 (b) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base, unless, an attempt to turn a bunt into a putout of a preceding runner fails, and in the judgment of the official scorer ordinary effort would not have put out the batter at first base, in which case the batter shall be credited with a one-base hit and not a sacrifice;
So ask yourself one question, if they had thrown to first instead of second, would the batter have been out with ordinary effort? If Yes, score a sacrifice, reached on a fielder's choice (no at bat). If No, score a single (at bat and hit).
Basically, nowhere in the rules does it say a fielder's choice is an at bat. It does say,
10.02 (a) The following records for each batter and runner:
(1) Number of times batted, except that no time at bat shall be charged when a player
(i) hits a sacrifice bunt or sacrifice fly;
(ii) is awarded first base on four called balls;
(iii) is hit by a pitched ball; or
(iv) is awarded first base because of interference or obstruction;
Throughout the rules, conditions where at bats are charged or not charged are defined. Many of these deal with more common fielder's choice conditions,
10.05 (b) "The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;"
The case in question is not defined explicitly.
I think it boils down to what 12's dad posted originally.
10.08 (b) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base, unless, an attempt to turn a bunt into a putout of a preceding runner fails, and in the judgment of the official scorer ordinary effort would not have put out the batter at first base, in which case the batter shall be credited with a one-base hit and not a sacrifice;
So ask yourself one question, if they had thrown to first instead of second, would the batter have been out with ordinary effort? If Yes, score a sacrifice, reached on a fielder's choice (no at bat). If No, score a single (at bat and hit).
JMoff,
I don't want to beat this thing into the ground -- and I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm for the rules since you joined us a few months ago. But we need to clarify here.
You stated, "Basically, nowhere in the rules does it say a fielder's choice is an at bat." But the rule you quoted, 10.02(a), DOES indeed say that. It says to record the number of times batted, with 4 specific exceptions. FC is not one of those 4 exceptions, so therefore it's a time at bat. So, FC is definitely a 0-1.
Which makes your statement --"If Yes, score a sacrifice, reached on a fielder's choice (no at bat)" -- invalid. You can't score it as a sacrifice (0-0) AND a "reached on a fielder's choice."(0-1)
The last part of 10.08(b) clearly and unequivocally states the only two choices:
- "one base hit"
- "sacrifice"
Pick either one you'd like, but those are your only two choices.
Thanks.
I don't want to beat this thing into the ground -- and I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm for the rules since you joined us a few months ago. But we need to clarify here.
You stated, "Basically, nowhere in the rules does it say a fielder's choice is an at bat." But the rule you quoted, 10.02(a), DOES indeed say that. It says to record the number of times batted, with 4 specific exceptions. FC is not one of those 4 exceptions, so therefore it's a time at bat. So, FC is definitely a 0-1.
Which makes your statement --"If Yes, score a sacrifice, reached on a fielder's choice (no at bat)" -- invalid. You can't score it as a sacrifice (0-0) AND a "reached on a fielder's choice."(0-1)
The last part of 10.08(b) clearly and unequivocally states the only two choices:
- "one base hit"
- "sacrifice"
Pick either one you'd like, but those are your only two choices.
Thanks.
RPD,
Agree the horse is dead on this one, and its probably a mute point, but I usually make a note about how each runner advances to each base. On the side, I'd write SAC, then draw a line to first and say FC since normally an out is recorded when a sacrifice occurs. If I ever decide to walk down memory lane and look at an old book, simply putting SAC with a line to first base might raise the question, well 'how did he get there', was it an error? Did they throw to the other base? With the FC, I know they tried something else.
I don't know if this is the correct notation or not, but it seems like you need to say something about why the batter isn't out on the sacrifice.
Again, its 0-1 or 1-1, depending on if he'd make it and its a sacrifice. How he reached doesn't matter, but I'd pick FC.
Agree the horse is dead on this one, and its probably a mute point, but I usually make a note about how each runner advances to each base. On the side, I'd write SAC, then draw a line to first and say FC since normally an out is recorded when a sacrifice occurs. If I ever decide to walk down memory lane and look at an old book, simply putting SAC with a line to first base might raise the question, well 'how did he get there', was it an error? Did they throw to the other base? With the FC, I know they tried something else.
I don't know if this is the correct notation or not, but it seems like you need to say something about why the batter isn't out on the sacrifice.
Again, its 0-1 or 1-1, depending on if he'd make it and its a sacrifice. How he reached doesn't matter, but I'd pick FC.
Now that my daughter has been safely delivered to softball practice and I've had a few more minutes to think this over...
The difference here might be how you credit 'the result of the at bat' versus how you credit 'the batter's advance'
For example, runner at second, batter hits a single, runner tries to score, throw goes home. On the throw, the batter takes second. I score this a single, advance to second on a fielder's choice.
Another example, strike three on a curve ball in the dirt with nobody on. Ball goes to the backstop and batter reaches first. I score that one a K (result of the at bat), batter reaches on a wild pitch. Obviously, WP doesn't result in any kind of batting result, its just how the hitter reached first.
One out, deep fly ball to center with a runner on third, center fielder drops the ball, run scores, batter on first. I score Sacrifice Fly (result of the at bat as in my example, the runner from third would've scored if the ball was caught), reached base on E-8. He gets an 0-0 and an RBI.
I'd humbly suggest a similar thing in the example quoted. Result of the at bat is a sacrifice (0-1), the batter reached first base on a fielder's choice.
I really enjoy these discussions. You can watch a million games and still see something new. I also don't mind being wrong, as I still enjoy learning. If others benefit from it as well, then all the better.
The difference here might be how you credit 'the result of the at bat' versus how you credit 'the batter's advance'
For example, runner at second, batter hits a single, runner tries to score, throw goes home. On the throw, the batter takes second. I score this a single, advance to second on a fielder's choice.
Another example, strike three on a curve ball in the dirt with nobody on. Ball goes to the backstop and batter reaches first. I score that one a K (result of the at bat), batter reaches on a wild pitch. Obviously, WP doesn't result in any kind of batting result, its just how the hitter reached first.
One out, deep fly ball to center with a runner on third, center fielder drops the ball, run scores, batter on first. I score Sacrifice Fly (result of the at bat as in my example, the runner from third would've scored if the ball was caught), reached base on E-8. He gets an 0-0 and an RBI.
I'd humbly suggest a similar thing in the example quoted. Result of the at bat is a sacrifice (0-1), the batter reached first base on a fielder's choice.
I really enjoy these discussions. You can watch a million games and still see something new. I also don't mind being wrong, as I still enjoy learning. If others benefit from it as well, then all the better.
quote:Originally posted by JMoff:
The difference here might be how you credit 'the result of the at bat' versus how you credit 'the batter's advance'.
Yes, and IMO, Rule 10 and the scoring rules in other codes are intended to describe how statistics are gathered, which include things like hitting stats, but not how the runners made their way around the bases. The rules don't really care how the game progresses unless it is necessary to get the data for one of the statistics, e.g. how many earned runs. In the OP, the result can only be a sacrifice bunt or a hit. Once that decision has been reached, Rule 10 isn't concerned with why he is on base.
But when I'm keeping the book, I want to record as much as I can about how the game developed. With that record, the stats necessary to fufill the requirements of Rule 10 are easily derived. That's why my book would show sacrifice and FC in the diagram. The game summary, on the other hand, would simply reflect the sacrifice.