Acting/Lying...Part of the game or cheating?

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Originally posted by ken:

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Originally posted by K Complex:

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Originally posted by CADad:
Coach May,
I think we agree more than we disagree. It is the overselling it part that I don't like. I would have been fine with just taking his base or even a bit of a grimace and then take the base. I think when you go out of your way to try and fool an umpire it is cheating. I don't know where the line is. There are a lot of similar things such as those redbird has brought up that I think are part of the game and I really can't say why they are different. Eventually I just go back to my morals and look at one incident and say that is part of the game and another and say that is cheating. I guess that the answer is that some cheating is part of the game and some isn't. The phantom tag, etc. are cheating but they are part of the game and so we accept them and challenge the umpires to make the right call. I just don't think that the oversell was part of the game.

I agree CAdad - no problem with the play if he can get the call but the embellishment was tacky . jumping around after the call, trainer exam while wincing in "pain" They did everything but bring out a stretcher!

Ahh spoken like a true Met fan.

Yes, a Mets fan- but I think Jeter is too classy for such embellishment antics is all!That is why I stated earlier that I was surprised! I could see A-ROD do that in a heartbeat though! And if it was a Met and the ump told them to take their base, they are so bad this year they probably would have started to run to third!

This has got to be about the dumbest thing I've heard all year from the baseball talking heads. Jeter did his job and sold the play. If the umpire was stupid enough to fall for it, then Jeter did his job. What do peeps expect Jeter to do? Tell the ump he fouled it off and the ball didn't hit him? Why all the moral high ground all of a sudden? And on a non-issue no less...How this issue has grown legs is garbage.

I know the issue is peeps are looking to find something on Jeter to lump in in with the rest of the steroid cheats and Jeter isn't a clean-cut apple pie ballplayer, but peeps fail miseraly at bringing down Jeter because they got nothing on Jeter other than that he's a real ballplayer, plays the game right and knows how to handle himself as a high-profile NY athlete

What did I say a couple of pages back? It was only a matter of time before zombywoof saw this and it was on!

Its about time you showed up!

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Originally posted by Coach_May:
What did I say a couple of pages back? It was only a matter of time before zombywoof saw this and it was on!

Its about time you showed up!

Here! Here!

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Originally posted by justbaseball:

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Originally posted by Coach_May:
What did I say a couple of pages back? It was only a matter of time before zombywoof saw this and it was on!

Its about time you showed up!

Here! Here!

Oh, ouch. Such rapier like wit and brusing logic. No use to even think any other opinion should exist.
*shrug* That is what we were waiting for?

While I disagree with Coach May, his representation was thoughtful, considerate of other opinions and intelligently presented.

I'll join Coach May in exiting this thread with this:

1. Would Willy Mays have put on such an act to get a free base?

2. When the pitch came in and the umpire mistakenly called it a HBP, a real ball player would have gone to first. An ethically challenged fading star apparently has to put on an extended act with a supporting cast.

That's the issue. Everyone, including umpires, understands that players will "cheat." But no one should celebrate the histrionics that Jeter, displayed. Man up for Gods sake.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
What did I say a couple of pages back? It was only a matter of time before zombywoof saw this and it was on!

Its about time you showed up!

Back at you Coach May

I'm with you on ths one. If you watch the play, it was so close to the hands and it was an easy sell for Jeter to maybe influence the play a bit. How many times do players take it off the knuckles and the ump called it hitting the bat. These things even out in the long run. The umps aren't perfect and these kinds of plays are hard to see unless you watched it on slo-moe.

It could be that for those, using the name Derek Cheater is a cool thing....Just a thought .

K complex, its all just in good fun.

Rob,
If I remember correctly you work in the world of "it depends". This is a classic case. Could you imagine what would happen with this nonsense in a courtroom?

I'm actually developing a product on how to throw 5mph faster. I'm not quite done and wanted to know the number one question people have when it comes to throwing harder. If you answer this question I'll give you the product for FREE when it's finished.

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== Link deleted by moderator. Sorry, you are not allowed to advertise your website in forum posts. - MN-Mom Forum Rules ==

brewers40th we got it man. Your post has nothing to do with this topic. Your advertising a product here.

Now what do you think about this topic we are discussing?

Jimmy03,

Uh, actually Willie Mays might of reached base in a way that is considered to be even a lower level of cheating, when you stop to consider that it has come out that the 1951 Giants led by that icon of clean play Leo Durocher used binoculars and an elaborate pitch stealing setup to come from 13.5 games behind and "steal" a pennant from the Dodgers. Since Willie was a rookie who struggled at first, there's every reason to believe he was one of the beneficieries of the conspiracy. We don't know only because we didn't have the benefit of camera's that catch every nose pick that we do nowadays. What Jeter did has been done in baseball since the beginning and in truth isn't so much cheating as a winning strategy.(get on base anyway you can)

I agree he could have just taken the base right away. Then he really would have made the umpire look even more silly, I heard the crack on the bat why didn't the umpire? I think that Jeter was trying to do him a favor in helping the umpire's cause, not his (the call was already made).

Then to add insult to injury he throws Maddon out, who had every reason to argue the call.

I am sure at this point the umpire wishes he had got it right and Jeter wishes he didn't do the dance.

What about those guys who lean in on the pitch to get hit on purpose and awarded a base when the umpire KNOWS he leaned in on purpose?

Chesting=Winning strategy. Wow. Another one I'll have to remember to teach my students.

Again, getting a free ride to first when the umpires screws up is not the issue.

BTW, saw Jeter's new uniform in one of the New York papers:

quote:

Originally posted by ken:
K complex, its all just in good fun.

Ken- and taken as good fun!

BTW- I will be at the Mets game tomorrow. Look for me as i will be sitting in row.... Ah hell, just look for me, you will see me- as I will probably be the only nut there instead of home watching football instead of these meaningless games!

So which rule did he break again? I keep forgetting.

I don't see how you can equate a blown call, overacting and the fact it's ok if he just would have went to first without the acting to cheating.

If he cheated - he broke a rule.

If he overacted - he looks like a fool.

If he goes to first - he is displaying character.

Also, for this to be cheating wouldn't there have to be someone who feels they got cheated? That they were done wrong? Maddon said he hopes his players will do the same thing. He obviously feels like he didn't get cheated.

Why aren't we harping all over Maddon for endorsing this? He is basically saying that if his players do the same thing he's down with it. According to some of you then that is cheating - why aren't you criticizing Maddon?

If Jeter truly cheated then why isn't MLB coming out with some sort of official statment condemning him or punishing him with a fine / suspension? If a player takes PEDs or corks his bat or doctors the ball they get punished because they are cheating. Why none of that for Jeter (and please don't say it's because they are the Yankees)?

If I recall, I started this thread by asking if what Jeter did was cheating or part of the game. I don't believe I said it was cheating, even though I don't approve of it. Instead, I equate it with lying and acting unethically. You can stay within the rules and be unethical.

The subject of cheating came up when some posters, either coaches or fans, began saying that cheating was part of the game. That caught my interest. I became curious that if that were true, when did they begin teaching it?

I know taking advantage of an umpire's mistake is part of the game. No problem with that. My issues are the ridiculous, and unprecedented at the ML level, act that Jeter put on, and his statments later that he wasn't hit. Seems like that's a display of situational honesty, or he enjoyed throwing the umpire under the bus.

Since he's done the latter previously, that gets my vote.

Jimmy03

That's what you don't get--it's not cheating it's an accepted part of the game. Oh except to you and a few others. If something comparable to what Jeter did is the worst thing your students ever do in life, then don't worry, they'll be alright. It's silly to equate something so trivial into some kind of overwrought life lesson. This is professional sports and in my book cheating has to be of a type a little higher on the "sin scale" than this one.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Jimmy03

That's what you don't get--it's not cheating it's an accepted part of the game. Oh except to you and a few others. If something comparable to what Jeter did is the worst thing your students ever do in life, then don't worry, they'll be alright. It's silly to equate something so trivial into some kind of overwrought life lesson. This is professional sports and in my book cheating has to be of a type a little higher on the "sin scale" than this one.

Pleaes try reading my posts again. It was not I who labeled it as cheating....I posed the question.

I have described what I have grief with three or four times. Here, this one is for you:

I have NO problem with getting a freebie from the umpire. NONE. ZIP. ZILCH.

I have a problem with the classless act that Jeter put it. Worst display since that punk at Arkansas.

I have a problem with Jeter throwing the umpire under the bus.

This has, for me, become a thread of two issues. One is what Jeter did. The second is the claim some have made that cheating is acceptable in baseball.

But again, and just for you, I do not consider what Jeter did cheating. I do consider the way he did it to be classless and unethical. Got it?

Actually I agree with you about the kid from Arkansas. However if you look back at your own posts you'll see that if you aren't accusing him of cheating , then I don't know what it is.



Posted September 16, 2010 07:31 PM Hide Post
Redbird and TR: I played D-1. My coach did not condone cheating. My coach preferred we stay in the box and hit the ball rather than try to act our way to first.

I dislike the lying and cheating. I was raised by a father who taught me that the way a man plays sports is indicative of the way he lives his life.

I believe Jeter, while a good player, is lacking in integrity. Evidence? 1. He does everything he can to earn an Oscar and to convince the umpire he was HBP. 2. Then he throws the umpire under the bus when speaking to the press. He wants to have it both ways...he wants credit for turning a fairball and certain out into a HBP, then he wants to blame the umpire for giving him first. This is the behavior that has earned players the nickname of "Rat" in some umpiring circles.

Previous evidence? He lied to his manager and to the press about what an umpire told him after being called out on a tag play at third. There is more and more. Jeter is not the choir boy NY fans believe.

Integrity, as I teach my students, is doing the right thing even when no one is looking. God only knows what Jeter does when thousands of people aren't watching him.

I am not naive. I know this goes on. I am not surprised players cheat. What amazes me is that many people, several on this board, can accept players purposefully cheating, even cheering them on, yet roast an umpire who makes an honest mistake.

But, what the heck...it's job secruity. As I read recently on another board, "If players and coaches didn't lie and cheat, there would be no need for umpires."

Posts: 1468 | Location: Nine Western States | Registered: April 20, 2008

Throwing the umpire under the bus? Looked to me like he missed the call.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Actually I agree with you about the kid from Arkansas. However if you look back at your own posts you'll see that if you aren't accusing him of cheating , then I don't know what it is.

That's obvious...you don't know what it is, although I've told you. I'll try again, slowly.

There are two things in this thread that I have been addressing. One is Jeter and the other is cheating.

So you agree the Arkansas players acted like a punk, but you think Jeter, who acted similarily, whas just doing his job?

In this post you will not that I did not say Jeter cheated. I said he lacked integrity. I stand by that statement.

quote:

it's an accepted part of the game.

Ok guys (players); "During practice this year we are going to work on all your baseball skills. This would be everything necessary to play at the highest level to include; throwing, fielding, base running, hitting, pitching and one more very important tool that many overlook but is an "accepted part of this game by many," that we will call doing those little extra's to win."

The following would be examples of what I'm talking about that you will learn here from me ("we probably need to keep this amongst us guys so don't tell your parents"); we will work on every variation of the "hidden ball trick." Never know when we might want to pull that out of our bag of tricks to help us win a big game! There are times when being honest really isn't the best policy so it's okay to fake catching a fly ball, or being hit by a pitch. In fact, we are going to practice these things until they are an art form. And for good measure, we will also work on stealing signs and relaying them to your team mates.

"Guys; Winning is what it's all about at every level. There is no excuse for losing. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying!"

NOW today let's forget the "Five Tools" of the game for todays practice and get right to work on those skills that will give us an edge.

I can't seem to find a full-length video of this event. If I recall, Jeter didn't have too much time to "over react." I think the trainer got out to him pretty quickly. That might have been part of the "show" but not so much Jeter acting.

Check out youtube, it's there.

It bothers me that the term cheating is used here

The thing that has bothered me about this whole thing is the overreaction to one AB of a man's ten thousand AB's. If you've had that great a percentage of good to bad in your own life you must be a saint. You want to crucify a man who has in every other game I've ever seen was exactly what I would want my players to emulate. He has never asked for the designation of Mr. Yankee and that stuff. Its a media that puts that on a man so that they can expose him or catch him in a moment of weakness because they always know there will be some holier than thou people waiting for that moment.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
It bothers me that the term cheating is used here

I am with you, if he leaned into the pitch on purpose then he was cheating. The call was made, the umpire made a mistake. It has everything to do with it.

I understand umpires are human and mistakes happen, I have never spoken up about an umpire on a message board.

Now I will. I have seen so many games where an umpire begins with a zone no larger than an envelope. Pitchers throw good pitches and still get balls, the pitchers become very frustrated and have to go deep into their counts, hitters frustrated, managers and coaches too. The game now becomes an hour or more than it needs to be. It's people like this that think they are bigger than the game. Many of them try to control the game when it should be the players doing so. I hate that. Or they are so inconsistant with their calls, what was a ball in the first half of the game now becomes a strike the second half.

So once in a while you have a player that is working for the academy award nomination, where on a daily basis you see umpires trying to control the game.

It works both ways Jimmy.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

It works both ways Jimmy.

Apples and oranges.

You are making the assumption and allegation that an umpire is purposely trying "to control the game" when in fact, as most humans do, he may be be having a terrible day and making mistakes. Or, he may be a terrible plate umpire. Those do exist.

I believe intentional acts differ from errors and lack of ability. Did Jeter accidentally put on a needless act? (remember, he had already been awarded the base wheh he began his tryout for Off Broadway)

I will never accept lying as part of baseball. When I discover a coach has wasted my time by coming out and knowingly lied to me about a play (as opposed to offering a different opinion), I have to admit, I remember that. It doesn't affect my calls, but it will affect what credibility he has the next time he comes out. I can't trust liars, in or out of baseball. Of course, your mileage may vary.

All that said, I am not making a blanket accustion. The vast majority of the skippers I work with are honest and ethical people. I have the good fortune of working with more "Coach May" types than the others I hear about and see occastionally here.

Jimmy03,

I've read many of your previous posts on this site and I have no doubt that you are a good umpire who takes pride in his work. I do think that umpires are somewhat like policemen in that they invaribly take the side of their brethren. And I feel that it is a touchy subject anytime a player is construed to show up or take advantage of an umpire. The reason I feel the Arkansas incident was different is that the young man in that game thrust his bat toward the umpire and said some things for which he was rightfully ejected. His trying to get the HBP call was pretty ridicules since it didn't come anywhere close to him and you could tell by the jeering that everyone saw that. The catcher even caught the ball I believe while in Jeter's case until seen on video it's impossible to know for sureif he was hit or the bat was hit. I think you are being hard on Jeter concerning the trainer as these guys come running when a star has a runny nose. We all know it hurts like hell when a ball hits certain parts of the bat and a 90+ mph pitch hitting the knob or lower part of the bat might have caused quite a stinging sensation. So a player might shake his are to get the bees out of there. We just don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
So once in a while you have a player that is working for the academy award nomination, where on a daily basis you see umpires trying to control the game.

Wrong. Thank you for playing.

The more I watch the clip the more I lean toward the "dark side". I'm not sure he did anything wrong.

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Originally posted by CADad:
The more I watch the clip the more I lean toward the "dark side". I'm not sure he did anything wrong.

He had already been awarded the base. Why the "milking out" of the act...grimacing in pain, having the trainer attend to it? Why not just go to first?

After the game, why play innocent: "The ball hit the bat, I went to first because I was told to."

I have not said that was cheating, but I do believe it to be a form of lying and throwing the umpire under the bus. I believe it to be an indicator of, or lack of, character.

Is it wrong? I don't know. I think it's classless.

In my book it was not wrong, it was not cheating nor was it classless.

It was taking advantage of the situation

I agree TR. How many football punters have we seen take a dive looking for a flag, s-****r players fake an injury on a play, catchers hold up a dropped foul tip, etc. It is how sports have been played for years.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
In my book it was not wrong, it was not cheating nor was it classless.

It was taking advantage of the situation

TR:

I have no problem accepting that that is the way you look at.

So tell me, do you coach your players to put on similar exhibitions when awarded a base due to an umpire error? And again, at what age do you introduce this game strategy?

quote:

It was taking advantage of the situation

ok, and if that player took your daughter out and she had way too much to drink ...... would it be ok with you if he took advantage of the situation?

Not the same thing I know. But, to me that's the problem with trying to rationalize what's acceptable behavior in one setting but not ok in another. I'd still rather have my player(s) apply a good set of ethics in every situation.

I admire Jeter as a baseball player specifically for how hard he plays the game. I can't think of another time where he hasn't played it just the way you should. I don't think he intended this to come off the way it did and I dare say he IS bothered by it and likely will give up his acting career.

Jimmy03

I don't fish with live bait like you do--I use lures

I think too many are worried about ethics which i do not see as the case here

I would never go in hard at 2nd base with someone's daughter on a date. But if she was hanging out at the bag I would.

I dont think anyone can blame Jeter for taking the bag.
I do think the acting job was a little much.
There was no need for it he already had the bag.

His initial reaction to the pitch was instinctive. His reaction after the call was over the top.

But its not a big deal imo. I would be willing to bet that he wishes he would have just taken the bag. And I bet next time he will do just that.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy03

I don't fish with live bait like you do--I use lures

Translation: I won't answer the question.

(As expected)

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I would never go in hard at 2nd base with someone's daughter on a date. But if she was hanging out at the bag I would.

I dont think anyone can blame Jeter for taking the bag.
I do think the acting job was a little much.
There was no need for it he already had the bag.

His initial reaction to the pitch was instinctive. His reaction after the call was over the top.

But its not a big deal imo. I would be willing to bet that he wishes he would have just taken the bag. And I bet next time he will do just that.

We're 95% in agreement. Close enough.

Jimmy

I didn't expect you to