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2022 is going through the transition from contact hitter to more of a power hitter.  Consistent, line drive, warning track power.  He has more doubles than anyone on his team.  He also has three times as many walks as the next player. 0.475 ish OBP for the last 3 years.

His coach wants him to expand his zone and be more aggressive.  Good advice?

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My son, who is a freshman in college (JUCO), was the same type of hitter.  Always had a ton of walks, led team in OBP and was top 2 in slugging all of his high school career.  There were many times I wish he would expand his zone more too.  But the more we talked and thought about it, it was a for sure no.  He drove so many balls cause he knew what he could handle and what he could drive.  If he swung at a pitch early in counts that was not that, then what good would that do?  He had his AB mentality of what he was going to do based on the count (or number of strikes),  Why change that? 

 

I was interested if college would change that for him.  He might have to against better pitching, time will tell.

 

MNBBG

Two things I hate most for hitters, walks and LOB. My son used to be the king of QAB's and would walk a ton. I don't think he walked once this fall and maybe a couple times this summer. He still gets hit a ton. He's much bigger now and much more aggressive, and quite honestly, a lot more fun to watch. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see kids flailing at terrible pitches, but I also hate watching a 6 or 7 pitch AB where the bat doesn't leave the shoulder. As to whether you're getting good advice, I think that depends on your son and his ability to get out of his comfort zone a bit. If he can be more aggressive and make contact I think you will like the results. It may hurt his OBP, but the hard hit balls should go up.

@JETSR71 posted:

Travel coach.

Makes sense then.  Travel ball is usually geared toward getting players exposure and interest from colleges.  No college is looking to recruit a kid because he walks a lot.  No RC is going to go see a player and come away satisfied because he saw the kid walk two times and fly out to RF.  Having good plate discipline is of value but in context, it is not going to be the key thing that gets him recruited. 

Decent college pitchers typically won't walk a ton of guys, especially not guys that don't swing it well.  RC's need to see what the player can do when he swings the bat against good P's.  Of course you don't want him to completely change his approach but he should start adjusting the intent from looking to get on base to looking to do damage, particularly in favorable counts and/or first pitch FB.  3X more walks than any other player tells me he at least has some of that "looking to get on base" mentality.  

I agree with ReluctantO's... he probably doesn't want to intentionally expand the zone.  But, I think he will find as he adjusts the mentality toward doing damage, that will happen to some degree on it's own.

Again, the ability to work a count and reach base a variety of ways has good value.  And, it may very well be relied upon once he lands on campus.  But he has to hit his way there.

Last edited by cabbagedad

 

@JETSR71 posted:

2022 is going through the transition from contact hitter to more of a power hitter.  Consistent, line drive, warning track power.  He has more doubles than anyone on his team.  He also has three times as many walks as the next player. 0.475 ish OBP for the last 3 years.

His coach wants him to expand his zone and be more aggressive.  Good advice?

I'm just a dad, but...

Don't all coaches say that if you're ahead in the count you narrow your zone and look for a pitch that you can drive?

I think telling a kid to expand his zone on a hitter's count is not great advice, though it is a question of degree.

As for being behind in the count, my son had a coach who always said expand your zone and attack it.  IOW, hit the ball oppo as hard as you hit a ball middle in.  I think that's good advice and maybe that's what your son's coach means.



I prefer the word zone coverage over expanding and the best way to learn that is to face better pitching. 

Against bad pitching sitting middle is a winning approach because you will get at least one fat pitch every AB. 

By facing good pitching you have to hit more edgy pitches or you are down 1-2 all the time.

I tell my kids to sit middle (or something else they like with no strikes but with one strike you want to give the outer two inches around the zone to the pitcher but otherwise hit it when it is in that slightly shrunken zone.

Many guys who "never expand actually can't even hit middle in or middle away and then their dad complains about the umps screwing him because he gets called on taking pitches.

So actually practice hitting pitches that are in and out and down and not just practice htting middle middle all the time. 

Often hitters who are passive do it because they know they can't handle tough pitches and the best way to avoid that is to practice hitting those pitches. 

I do a drill that I call 4 corner drill for warm up. Can be done off the tee and later flips, what you do is you start in one corner (say low and away) and then you hit that until you have hit 3 solid line drives and then you move on to the next corner until you have finished all 4 corners.

 

You can also set the machine at the corners or you use firm overhead front toss from close to work on handling the corners. 

So basically a couple things:

1) practice handling pitches on the corners, you only will swing at them when you are able to crush them. A grooved down the pipe swing will crush lower levels but not scale

2) don't take strike two: with no strikes wait for your pitch but at higher levels taking strike two is almost as bad as taking strike 3 because those guys can put you away with two strikes

3) face better pitching which throws first pitch strikes because against pitchers who throw a strike early the wait for a fat one approach won't work

In travel/showcase, you are not there to walk.  Guys don't come to watch you get a walk.  In high school, it is different you are there to help the team the best way you can and some times that is walking.  My son was told by both of his high level travel ball coaches that no one came to see you walk to first.  The one would even say at 3-0 swing through a ball to maybe get a chance at a strike.  He was always looking to hit on 3-0.  I also say this is why stats don't mean anything during the summer because you should be in a different mindset.  Show your stuff.  It is the selfish part of travel/showcase ball but it is life.

Players don’t walk to the next level. They drive the ball there. While a hitter doesn’t want to be swinging at bad pitches he shouldn’t be taking good pitches to work the count. 

This was a big transition for my son when he started playing 17u. When he moved from lead off to third in the order in high school his coach screamed at him, “You bat third to drive in runs, not walk.”

@JETSR71 posted:

.........................................................................

His coach wants him to expand his zone and be more aggressive.  Good advice?

Possibly I'm misinterpreting "expand his zone" phrasing, but that would imply your expanding the pitchers zone too?   What pitcher doesn't want an expanded zone!   If your selling me an expanded hitting zone as a pitcher, I'm certainly buying.   Buy, buy, buy!

I can understand "expanding the zone" a little at a showcase as they want to see you hit not walk.   In games, if your son is a disciplined hitter with a clear plan when he steps into the box, why change that.   Hitting is difficult enough.  If he is warning track power today as a 2022, and is getting pitches to drive then it is just a matter of time before they go over the fence.

As always, JMO.

He read Ted Williams Science of Hitting and took the get a good pitch to hit pretty seriously.  He can work a pitcher to get his pitch, QAB's. 

Last night we discussed his "hot zone."  He has power low and in, middle and high outside. 

His plan for this weekend is to attack his hot zone from an 0-0 count. Possibly expand his idea of his hot zone(still strikes).  He will pass on his cold zone until two strikes.  We will see if the results are any different.

I agree, you can't walk to the next level.

When my son entered college he took an aggressive mindset with him.  During the fall he expanded his zone and swung at anything that was hittable.  This was intentional and part of his plan.  He wanted to show the coach he could swing the bat and hit the ball with authority.  During his meeting with the head coach at the end of fall, the HC noted that he didn't have a single walk all fall (in many, many at-bats).  Coach told him he really likes what he sees in the batters box but let's work on this aspect.  What kind of discussion would it have been if he led the team in walks but didn't show he could hit?  I would give the same advice to a HS player on a travel team - as RJM says, walking isn't going to get him to the next level.

My son, who is a freshman in college (JUCO), was the same type of hitter.  Always had a ton of walks, led team in OBP and was top 2 in slugging all of his high school career.  There were many times I wish he would expand his zone more too.  But the more we talked and thought about it, it was a for sure no.  He drove so many balls cause he knew what he could handle and what he could drive.  If he swung at a pitch early in counts that was not that, then what good would that do?  He had his AB mentality of what he was going to do based on the count (or number of strikes),  Why change that? 

 

I was interested if college would change that for him.  He might have to against better pitching, time will tell.

 

MNBBG

There's a couple (or at least were when I was working at a JUCO in MN [assuming he went to a JUCO in MN]) decent pitchers, couple hard throwers (not really pitchers per se), and the rest pretty hittable.

You gave good advice. Gotta know the person, know their mentality at the plate. I was very comfortable looking for my pitch, and hitting from behind the count. However there are some pitchers (especially the higher you go up) where you may only get one good pitch, if any. So sometimes shifting that mentality to be more aggressive can be of benefit (something I think Buxton did this year for the Twins, swinging at more first pitches). Doesn't mean that will work for every person, or in every situation.

Last edited by XFactor

I've been coaching for quite a few years.

Fact:   Most of the high-batting-average HS hitters I've coached have had relatively low numbers of walks.

Opinion:  For the typical HS athlete, they can't hit the ball hard with any consistency unless the're mentally jumping-out-of-their-shoes to swing the bat on every single pitch.

Last edited by game7

Edgar Martinez  watch his swing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4EYG_Eqd-s.

He would be a very good example for a young hitter. Notice the bat path thru the hitting zone. A few years ago, my son [Mariners Int' Scout] visiting the Mariners baseball Stadium in the month of November. Stop by the gym and one individual was "working out".

It was Edgar and we talked hitting for one hour. "I asked Edgar that he liked to take pitches and then go opposite field with 2 strikes" He said "yes except one pitcher - Roger C." I do not want the "split finger" with 2 strikes.

Morale: every at bat, the hitter needs to make adjustments. The batter's box is his classroom and he is the "lone" student.  The sun, wind, shape of field, the umpire and the pitcher will effect the success.

Bob

@game7 posted:

I've been coaching for quite a few years.

Fact:   Most of the high-batting-average HS hitters I've coached have had relatively low numbers of walks.

Opinion:  For the typical HS athlete, they can't hit the ball hard with any consistency unless the're mentally jumping-out-of-their-shoes to swing the bat on every single pitch.

It’s not uncommon if the hitter has the most power on the team he gets pitched around. A hitter doesn’t want to be swinging at pitcher’s strikes. But he doesn’t want to be taking one hot zone pitch.

Last edited by RJM

If the kid is analytically interested statcast has a great concept with swing zones.

https://www.google.com/search?...imgrc=bFKKOu-cTBNE5M

Tango has decided the zone in 3 zones



1. Heart of the plate (essentially the zone minus a 3 inch stripe around the zone)

2. Shadow zone (3 inches inside the zone plus a 3 inch stripe around the zone, pitches taken here are essentially called a strike 50% of the time)

3. Chase zone (more than 3 inches away from zone border)



Successful hitters generally swing very often in that heart and very rarely in chase. It is also good to take the shadow zone pitches but there are some exceptions

a) free swinging hitters like Jose Abreu or baez who can handle those pitches

b) guys like Mike trout who have a good eye but a differing hot zone. Trout takes a lot of pitches in the upper third of the heart and swings a lots of pitches slightly below the kneecaps which are often not called strikes because that is where he hits best

But goal must be to swing a lot in the heart of the plate. You can shift that heart a bit into a direction you like (for example up or in) but generally you still want to cover most of that heart because if you give up too much of the heart you give the pitcher too many free strikes.

Ideally the pitcher only has the shadow zone to work with because you crush the heart and take chase which means both lots of hits and walks.

You can also walk by taking heart pitches at lower level because you make the pitcher throw multiple times in the zone which many bad pitchers can't do but that approach won't scale at higher levels.

You see that even at higher levels. Hitters like Dan vogelbach or Tyler white are good examples for that. They both have an 80 grade eye and walked a ton in the minors and always had like a 900 ops in the minors because they would hit heart pitches well and take anything else which lead to high walk and OK K rates because pitchers could not get them to chase and not throw enough tough strikes.

But once they Made the majors they were forced to hit tough pitcher strikes which lead to their K rate skyrocketing as their contact skill and batspeed is not quite elite. They still walked but overall production plummeted.

That is why you still need scouting and not just watch stats. There are a lot of ways to produce a good OPS at lower levels that doesn't really scale.

I hardly ever tell a batter to be more aggressive in terms of broadening the location and/or type of pitches that he swings at.

To me, selective vs. aggressive is instinctual and ingrained and I don't want to monkey with it.

Relatively  often, however,  I'll make a strong suggestion that a batter increases his level of anticipation in fastball counts.  I'll tell him:   I won't second guess your choice to swing or not. But if you choose to swing in a FB count,  I'll judge your at-bat by whether you swing on-time and with conviction.

For this purpose, I'll usually define FB count as 0-0, 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, and 3-1.

Sometimes, with some hitters--usually when I think the threat of offspeed is making them badly tentative-- I'll widen it to include 1-1 and 2-2.

This doesn't apply to my best hitters.  I leave them alone and stay out of their heads.

Last edited by game7

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