The NBA is a sport that is dominated by black players from the inner cities of America. I don't think anyone will argue that!
Then came the many foriegn players from European countries who have done well in the League. That is thew new trend.
I live in the farming (mostly rural, majority white) state of Iowa. Could someone explain why at least 6 "white" players who went to high school in our small state were on NBA rosters last year?
If rural America can produce NBA players, why can't inner cities produce MLB players?
How can rural Iowa white kids make it in the predomently black NBA? Is it because of no baseball facilities? Or is it because of all those playgrounds for basketball players. Or is it just coincidental?
Does it have anything whatsoever to do with race and opportunity?
A quiz for all. At the start of the 2005 season, how many black american pitchers were in the starting rotation on a major league team? Can you name them?
C.C. Sabathia...
Dewon Brazelton?
I'm going only on memory, but the list is extremely low.
Willis and Jerome Walton in the NL, Shawn Chacon? Or is he hispanic?
Dewon Brazelton?
I'm going only on memory, but the list is extremely low.
Willis and Jerome Walton in the NL, Shawn Chacon? Or is he hispanic?
Don't want to simplify an obviously complex situation.....but.....in our society today.....are not the opportunities to participate in all sports are there for all kids? That said.....is it not also possible that kids make choices as to what sport(s) they will participate in for many reasons? To include: Parental influence, peer influence, natural talent, ease of participation, and a simple love of swinging a bat versus a sinking a basket?
I'm an old lady who goes way back to the days before Title IX.....where I went to high school...... females.....white, black, hispanic.... we had no organized sports to participate in..... We went everyday to PE class, for 4 years, and did exercises....I knew those drills so well.....that now......40 years later..... I can still do them.....but not quite so fast and limber.....well actually.....I avoid all exercise.....but... 40 years later I still wish I had the opportunity to compete in the long jump.....
Opportunity.....I see that as the issue....if we are providing that....in our schools.....our Little Leagues, YMCA's.....Boys and Girls Clubs....well.....kids will make their choices.....based on many external factors. We may question those factors, but certainly if we as a society are providing the chance to participate in organized youth sports....to all children.....then....where is the problem?
I apologize to the posters who have come out against Tile IX in other threads.....but you know.....if we as a society fail to take care of our inequities......Uncle Sam will do so.....and that said.....I don't think he'll be stepping into the lack of blacks in baseball.....
I'm an old lady who goes way back to the days before Title IX.....where I went to high school...... females.....white, black, hispanic.... we had no organized sports to participate in..... We went everyday to PE class, for 4 years, and did exercises....I knew those drills so well.....that now......40 years later..... I can still do them.....but not quite so fast and limber.....well actually.....I avoid all exercise.....but... 40 years later I still wish I had the opportunity to compete in the long jump.....
Opportunity.....I see that as the issue....if we are providing that....in our schools.....our Little Leagues, YMCA's.....Boys and Girls Clubs....well.....kids will make their choices.....based on many external factors. We may question those factors, but certainly if we as a society are providing the chance to participate in organized youth sports....to all children.....then....where is the problem?
I apologize to the posters who have come out against Tile IX in other threads.....but you know.....if we as a society fail to take care of our inequities......Uncle Sam will do so.....and that said.....I don't think he'll be stepping into the lack of blacks in baseball.....
It is about choice.
Why do some start their discussion with "I hope people dont take this the weong way"
There is a myriad of reasons why the young AA does not participate in youth baseball...some of it is financial, some of it is peer influence and some of it is a lack of parental guidance to the sport. (it is difficult to encourage one's relative to play baseball if they have never played)
I love baseball and I don't like to lose an athlete to another sport. Although, this generation is being led to believe they all will be the next Michael Jordan or Iverson, in truth, most won't be able to go beyond HS. Cameron Maybin's Dad and I had a long discussion about this. Cameron is a pretty good basketball player and he wanted to be like his cousin (first round pick in the NBA draft). His Dad said, " Cameron, you are 6'2"!.... where do you think you will have a better chance of playing professionally?" I think Cameron made the right choice.
There are many Cameron Maybin type athletes walking the HS campus's, that have never been exposed to baseball.
Some people find that the "playing fields are equal", so there shouldn't be a boost to encourage the participation...and that's fine! Some people believe it is not...and that's fine, too.
It's not a topic that everyone believes in, nor want to spend their time or money on. I understand that. But for those that do, it is a complex problem that will not be improved by offering a scholarship to the one or two players that join your association. I'm sure most of your boys started to play baseball because of your love of the game...they tasted success and developed their own love. Who's teaching them the love? Their mothers? their brothers? their uncles?
I love baseball and everything about it. I love the life lessons that it teaches a young man; Teamwork, discipline, committment. But there is another aspect of baseball that I love which you can't find in any other sport. "It ain't over til it's over".
I'm sure someone will reply "nonsense" or "just another bleeding heart liberal", but those that I know and respect on this board like itsinthegame, Prepster and HiHard know me and know that is not the case. It's just a subject that I believe in and would like to see improved.
I love baseball and I don't like to lose an athlete to another sport. Although, this generation is being led to believe they all will be the next Michael Jordan or Iverson, in truth, most won't be able to go beyond HS. Cameron Maybin's Dad and I had a long discussion about this. Cameron is a pretty good basketball player and he wanted to be like his cousin (first round pick in the NBA draft). His Dad said, " Cameron, you are 6'2"!.... where do you think you will have a better chance of playing professionally?" I think Cameron made the right choice.
There are many Cameron Maybin type athletes walking the HS campus's, that have never been exposed to baseball.
Some people find that the "playing fields are equal", so there shouldn't be a boost to encourage the participation...and that's fine! Some people believe it is not...and that's fine, too.
It's not a topic that everyone believes in, nor want to spend their time or money on. I understand that. But for those that do, it is a complex problem that will not be improved by offering a scholarship to the one or two players that join your association. I'm sure most of your boys started to play baseball because of your love of the game...they tasted success and developed their own love. Who's teaching them the love? Their mothers? their brothers? their uncles?
I love baseball and everything about it. I love the life lessons that it teaches a young man; Teamwork, discipline, committment. But there is another aspect of baseball that I love which you can't find in any other sport. "It ain't over til it's over".
I'm sure someone will reply "nonsense" or "just another bleeding heart liberal", but those that I know and respect on this board like itsinthegame, Prepster and HiHard know me and know that is not the case. It's just a subject that I believe in and would like to see improved.
I dont want to simplify the issue - but just some thoughts from the two areas of the country I have lived in.
If you want to begin a high school or collegiate career in - (lets use the big three - football, basketball and baseball) - here is what I have seen.
Football - play on the high school team. Maybe go to a camp or two. Thats about it. Not much in the way of equipment or travel - as most is supplied by your high school team. Recruiting - alot done by viewing tapes of the players.
Basketball - little bit more on the travel. Equipment - a pair of shorts and some sneakers.
Go to some camps - yes. And summer leagues - yes. Cost - not much. Also - alot of recruiting (at least the initial part - done by viewing video.)
Baseball - Equipment. Need I say more. We got $300 bats just for starters.
Travel - LOL. If you are on an AAU or select team - be prepared to spend alot of money.
Cost to be seen by recruiters. I dont even want to think about it. LOL
From my perspective - baseball has gotten to be a very expensive proposition relative to other sports.
That will - without a doubt - eliminate many kids - regardless of their heritage.
Looking at it another way - I put myself in other's less fortunate shoes for a moment. If I had very little money - I would simply not have been able to afford what both of my boys have experienced the last 8 years or so.
Its that simple.
Baseball - particularly on the more competitive level nowadays - is an expensive proposition.
To think that will not have ramifications as to choice of sport is not very realistic.
How do you fix it at this point - I dont know.
Is money the only issue - probably not.
But the beginning of any solution is an objective recognition of the problem(s) - whether we want to admit it or not.
P.S. - And then - when you are all done and if you have a special talent - here is what you can look forward to as far as college money.
Football - 100%
Basketball - 100%
Baseball - you will be competing for a few extra bucks against the badminton team.
JMHO
If you want to begin a high school or collegiate career in - (lets use the big three - football, basketball and baseball) - here is what I have seen.
Football - play on the high school team. Maybe go to a camp or two. Thats about it. Not much in the way of equipment or travel - as most is supplied by your high school team. Recruiting - alot done by viewing tapes of the players.
Basketball - little bit more on the travel. Equipment - a pair of shorts and some sneakers.
Go to some camps - yes. And summer leagues - yes. Cost - not much. Also - alot of recruiting (at least the initial part - done by viewing video.)
Baseball - Equipment. Need I say more. We got $300 bats just for starters.
Travel - LOL. If you are on an AAU or select team - be prepared to spend alot of money.
Cost to be seen by recruiters. I dont even want to think about it. LOL
From my perspective - baseball has gotten to be a very expensive proposition relative to other sports.
That will - without a doubt - eliminate many kids - regardless of their heritage.
Looking at it another way - I put myself in other's less fortunate shoes for a moment. If I had very little money - I would simply not have been able to afford what both of my boys have experienced the last 8 years or so.
Its that simple.
Baseball - particularly on the more competitive level nowadays - is an expensive proposition.
To think that will not have ramifications as to choice of sport is not very realistic.
How do you fix it at this point - I dont know.
Is money the only issue - probably not.
But the beginning of any solution is an objective recognition of the problem(s) - whether we want to admit it or not.
P.S. - And then - when you are all done and if you have a special talent - here is what you can look forward to as far as college money.
Football - 100%
Basketball - 100%
Baseball - you will be competing for a few extra bucks against the badminton team.
JMHO
Whenever this topic turns to scholarship opportunities and the prevailing wisdom that inner city youth choose hoops due to the D1 bounty that awaits them, I 
.
I've long felt that organized basketball (AAU etc) have long dangled this carrot over kids and their families without anyone in the hinterlands pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.
Here's the reality:
* There are approximately 325 D1 basketball schools in the country
* They have a maximum of 13 scholarships
* As a head count sport, all scholarships are full ride, no partial awards are allowed
* The typical school signs 2-3 HS players per year
* The approximate number of graduating HS scholarship recipients is therefore in the area of 650-900 annually (I'm ignoring the JUCO signees who reduce this number)
* Attendance at high level D1 sanctioned recruiting tournaments often exceeds 500 TEAMS.
The notion that basketball is a better source of college funding for the incredibly vast majority of players based on D1 numbers is certainly ridiculous, but the masses are fed this line daily.
.I've long felt that organized basketball (AAU etc) have long dangled this carrot over kids and their families without anyone in the hinterlands pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.
Here's the reality:
* There are approximately 325 D1 basketball schools in the country
* They have a maximum of 13 scholarships
* As a head count sport, all scholarships are full ride, no partial awards are allowed
* The typical school signs 2-3 HS players per year
* The approximate number of graduating HS scholarship recipients is therefore in the area of 650-900 annually (I'm ignoring the JUCO signees who reduce this number)
* Attendance at high level D1 sanctioned recruiting tournaments often exceeds 500 TEAMS.
The notion that basketball is a better source of college funding for the incredibly vast majority of players based on D1 numbers is certainly ridiculous, but the masses are fed this line daily.
rbinaz,
Agree with you.
Unfortunately - many of the masses are dead broke.
So here is the choice
Spend very little money - for the chance of getting a free ride in basketball (and football) - or - spend alot of money for very little baseball money.
If I were dead broke - the choice would be a no-brainer.
The powers that be in hoops know this perspective all too well - and as expected - play it to their advantage. IMO.
Agree with you.
Unfortunately - many of the masses are dead broke.
So here is the choice
Spend very little money - for the chance of getting a free ride in basketball (and football) - or - spend alot of money for very little baseball money.
If I were dead broke - the choice would be a no-brainer.
The powers that be in hoops know this perspective all too well - and as expected - play it to their advantage. IMO.
When did baseball become so expensive? And why? I look at some of the Latin players in the majors/ I wonder how many of them paid 300 dollara for a bat?
ADD to that the cultural, regional, and family financial aspects of each kid and my head is spinningquote:by B>: until now, whether coaching or watching I had always just seen a group of kids/guys playing a great game, learning, and having fun
but - in the future I'll prolly be viewing them by their race, figuring ratios - then feel compelled to run some "majorities" off and/or intimidate some "minorities" into playing to achieve a better balance
a choice you overlooked -quote:by it's: So here is the choice
Spend very little money - for the chance of getting a free ride in basketball (and football) - or - spend alot of money for very little baseball money.
it doesn't take much wealth to teach a kid how to "crack a book" if indications are that college money will be tight in their family
.
Bee,
What does that comment have to do with the subject at hand? Noone was talking about different success levels academically.
We are talking sports.
For arguments sake - lets assume all athletes in my post are good students.
Every single word I posted stands.
The fact is - the decision for a talented athlete - from a family with little or no money - is a nobrainer.
There are great potential rewards for little financial risk in other sports.
That is not the case with baseball.
Unless you are a top round draft pick. IMO.
What does that comment have to do with the subject at hand? Noone was talking about different success levels academically.
We are talking sports.
For arguments sake - lets assume all athletes in my post are good students.
Every single word I posted stands.
The fact is - the decision for a talented athlete - from a family with little or no money - is a nobrainer.
There are great potential rewards for little financial risk in other sports.
That is not the case with baseball.
Unless you are a top round draft pick. IMO.
In the state I live in...
Number of college athletic scholarships in the three major sports.
#1 Football
#2 Baseball
#3 Basketball
Walk ons earning a scholarship
#1 Football
#2 Basketball
#3 Baseball
The chances are very low of anyone outside the very most talented getting a Division I basketball scholarship.
Baseball - Most DI State colleges will be loaded with in state players.
Basketball - Many DI colleges recruit outside the state.
At the DI level there are many more opportunities for some type of baseball scholarship than there are for basketball scholarships.
To me it seems a DI basketball scholarship is very unrealistic for most young people. Wealthy or poor!
People without the physical size required for football and basketball are playing DI baseball.
I agree with "Will". The Dominican Republic is poverty stricken! How many Dominicans are playing DI basketball, let alone on NBA rosters? If the reason for more African Americans becoming interested in basketball is because of the cost, why wouldn't that be true everywhere.
I think its just a matter of what's most popular in your neigborhhod. Basketball is very popular in the inner cities of America!
IMO Love for a sport usually starts at a very young age. Baseball is not expensive for most 8 or 9 year olds.
Maybe this interest and popularity of football and basketball has to do with the media as much as anything else. College Football, College Basketball, College Baseball - What does the media tell us is most important?
Number of college athletic scholarships in the three major sports.
#1 Football
#2 Baseball
#3 Basketball
Walk ons earning a scholarship
#1 Football
#2 Basketball
#3 Baseball
The chances are very low of anyone outside the very most talented getting a Division I basketball scholarship.
Baseball - Most DI State colleges will be loaded with in state players.
Basketball - Many DI colleges recruit outside the state.
At the DI level there are many more opportunities for some type of baseball scholarship than there are for basketball scholarships.
To me it seems a DI basketball scholarship is very unrealistic for most young people. Wealthy or poor!
People without the physical size required for football and basketball are playing DI baseball.
I agree with "Will". The Dominican Republic is poverty stricken! How many Dominicans are playing DI basketball, let alone on NBA rosters? If the reason for more African Americans becoming interested in basketball is because of the cost, why wouldn't that be true everywhere.
I think its just a matter of what's most popular in your neigborhhod. Basketball is very popular in the inner cities of America!
IMO Love for a sport usually starts at a very young age. Baseball is not expensive for most 8 or 9 year olds.
Maybe this interest and popularity of football and basketball has to do with the media as much as anything else. College Football, College Basketball, College Baseball - What does the media tell us is most important?
by it's: "Spend very little money - for the chance of getting a free ride in basketball (and football)"
it's, I was responding to your comment regarding choosing a route for MAX college aid
the kid hits the books, gets academic aid & plays any dam sport he likes
or did I misunderstand??
it's, I was responding to your comment regarding choosing a route for MAX college aid
the kid hits the books, gets academic aid & plays any dam sport he likes
or did I misunderstand??
Bee,
I think it is a complicated issue IMO.
I also think that money plays a very major role in the issue. Like it does in just about everything else in this country.
I have no idea about the Dominican thing.
I have also not talked about education as part of the process.
All I do know - from what I have seen in 2 different parts of the country - is that baseball has gotten to be very expensive for kids that are in their teens and that want to pursue baseball at a higher level.
Much more expensive than football and basketball - with far less financial reward at the end of the journey. Regardless of the odds of attaining that reward.
If you were a great athlete (and a solid student) - and could choose a sport at a top school - which one would you pick?
Would you go for the 100% scholly in football or basketball - or would you fight for crumbs with the rowing team and play baseball?
Please dont get me wrong - I love baseball - and am glad my kids love it too. But that is easy for me to say - because I dont have to worry about paying the rent next week.
I think it is a complicated issue IMO.
I also think that money plays a very major role in the issue. Like it does in just about everything else in this country.
I have no idea about the Dominican thing.
I have also not talked about education as part of the process.
All I do know - from what I have seen in 2 different parts of the country - is that baseball has gotten to be very expensive for kids that are in their teens and that want to pursue baseball at a higher level.
Much more expensive than football and basketball - with far less financial reward at the end of the journey. Regardless of the odds of attaining that reward.
If you were a great athlete (and a solid student) - and could choose a sport at a top school - which one would you pick?
Would you go for the 100% scholly in football or basketball - or would you fight for crumbs with the rowing team and play baseball?
Please dont get me wrong - I love baseball - and am glad my kids love it too. But that is easy for me to say - because I dont have to worry about paying the rent next week.
it's - - talk about complicating things
a thought that I maybe should bring up on a new thread, but - here goes - -
what are you thoughts about YOUR/OUR Mets firing or re-assigning a dozen of their scouts?
and the new scouting director?
also IS the recent popularity of summer/fall/wimter showcases and high profile tourneys changing how MLB teams structure their scouting departments - - IE - why do teams need all the area scouts/associate scouts they had in the past if other people (PG, T1, etc) can (probably more efficiently) IDENTIFY, EVALUATE, & GATHER talent into ONE place where a cross-checker/supervisor/GM can evaluate??
maybe PG or scout can comment
bump it to a new topic if you like
a thought that I maybe should bring up on a new thread, but - here goes - -
what are you thoughts about YOUR/OUR Mets firing or re-assigning a dozen of their scouts?
and the new scouting director?
also IS the recent popularity of summer/fall/wimter showcases and high profile tourneys changing how MLB teams structure their scouting departments - - IE - why do teams need all the area scouts/associate scouts they had in the past if other people (PG, T1, etc) can (probably more efficiently) IDENTIFY, EVALUATE, & GATHER talent into ONE place where a cross-checker/supervisor/GM can evaluate??
maybe PG or scout can comment
bump it to a new topic if you like
I don't believe anyone is going to change their opinions about the reasons why Black
Americans have a lesser representation in the game of baseball-through all levels-than the other two major sports. For what it's worth I think everyone has valid reasons, but I do believe some hold more weight than others. I have been tempted to weigh in on the subject with my "unofficial" reason as to why this is but I would just be reiteration what others have already said.
However, someone made a point about the "solution to the problem" I and started thinking, "What problem?". First of all, there will always be discrepancies in race
ratios in all sports, why does it HAVE to be a PROBLEM that needs a solution?
My middle child/son loved the game of basketball and tried out his freshman year(never once thought about getting a scholarship or playing in the NBA). In a predominately white school he was cut from the team-11 of the 12 players were black. He knew it would be a long shot to make freshman team and that he did not have the talent the other players had. He was disappointed but understood that he would have to get better to make the team. Resentful? Only that he got his Dad's jumping ability.
He basically gave up the idea about playing on the HS team his Soph and Jr year but played pickup games in the evenings and weekends and actually improved
his ability and by the fall of his senior year he announced that he was going out for the basktball team again. Much to our amazement the coach picked him as the 12th
player and he lettered this past year. His Mom and I were never prouder.
Was he a star? No. Will he play in college? No. Do we see it as a problem that he will not be
playing in college or the NBA? Absolutely not. He will focus on academics and baseball and be thankful he had the opportunity be on his HS team.
Now, should we start a program to develop more white players to get involved in basketball at a younger age and try to encourage them to "love" the game so that we
as a society can bring the ratio(whites to blacks) back to where it's "supposed" to
be? Just so we can correct a "problem" that doesn't exist? IMO.
Americans have a lesser representation in the game of baseball-through all levels-than the other two major sports. For what it's worth I think everyone has valid reasons, but I do believe some hold more weight than others. I have been tempted to weigh in on the subject with my "unofficial" reason as to why this is but I would just be reiteration what others have already said.
However, someone made a point about the "solution to the problem" I and started thinking, "What problem?". First of all, there will always be discrepancies in race
ratios in all sports, why does it HAVE to be a PROBLEM that needs a solution?
My middle child/son loved the game of basketball and tried out his freshman year(never once thought about getting a scholarship or playing in the NBA). In a predominately white school he was cut from the team-11 of the 12 players were black. He knew it would be a long shot to make freshman team and that he did not have the talent the other players had. He was disappointed but understood that he would have to get better to make the team. Resentful? Only that he got his Dad's jumping ability.
He basically gave up the idea about playing on the HS team his Soph and Jr year but played pickup games in the evenings and weekends and actually improvedhis ability and by the fall of his senior year he announced that he was going out for the basktball team again. Much to our amazement the coach picked him as the 12th
player and he lettered this past year. His Mom and I were never prouder.
Was he a star? No. Will he play in college? No. Do we see it as a problem that he will not beplaying in college or the NBA? Absolutely not. He will focus on academics and baseball and be thankful he had the opportunity be on his HS team.
Now, should we start a program to develop more white players to get involved in basketball at a younger age and try to encourage them to "love" the game so that we
as a society can bring the ratio(whites to blacks) back to where it's "supposed" to
be? Just so we can correct a "problem" that doesn't exist? IMO.
Bee,
IMO - It would be interesting to hear bbscout's or PG's comments concerning if - and how - showcases/high profile tourneys are changing MLB scouting tactics. I personally havent a clue.
As to the Mets maneuvers - LOL - All I can say is that I hope whatever they do improves the club. They certainly need help.
IMO - It would be interesting to hear bbscout's or PG's comments concerning if - and how - showcases/high profile tourneys are changing MLB scouting tactics. I personally havent a clue.
As to the Mets maneuvers - LOL - All I can say is that I hope whatever they do improves the club. They certainly need help.
quote:Originally posted by Moc1:
However, someone made a point about the "solution to the problem" I and started thinking, "What problem?". First of all, there will always be discrepancies in race
ratios in all sports, why does it HAVE to be a PROBLEM that needs a solution?
Moc,
That was me - and I was straying from the original topic. My fault.
The problem I was referring to concerned players of all races and heritages.
I gave my opinion that the increasing cost of playing baseball at higher levels is contributing to the lack of participation for youngsters whose familes dont have much money.
Sorry for the confusion.