After contact...

Very

You must swing through after contact or you will find yourself hitting alot of grounders.
I think keeping both hands of is the best way.It helps keep your weight back,and it keeping you level during your swing.Sometimes,when a player releases his bottom hand,they tend to pull their head or be ahead of a pitch(at this level anyhow)

There are two things you want to do--- see the ball hit the ball--antiquated isnt it- but it works

(1) Top hand drags the system after it reaches the belt.
(2) Can get to extension better with top hand release.
(3) If you hold on you have a greater tendency of rolling over, which causes the barrel to pick up, which causes ground balls (BlueDog)
(4) It is less strain on your lower back to let go. It takes the load off. As hitters swing faster this is important.
(5) 90% of great hitters have a top hand release, 90% of coaches don't seem to like it. Do the math.

Am I correct that you should try and have a high finish to the swing? Above the shoulder? Or is that too high? I guess I need to look at some clips, but I thought I would ask fo ropinions as well.

bluedog,I cpuldnt tell if you were joking or not.If youre not,then I hate to tell you but its pretty basic knowledge that if you just stop your swing after contact,you wont be much of a hitter.

Deacon,you might want to hear a few pros at this from the site,but you should always follow through with your swing and encourage your son to keep both hands on the bat at all times.

You can't chop and stop with a woodbat!! You will not have as much carry in distance of ball with a woodbat. Maybe with metal but not wood!
Peace, Shep

Aidan swings...

Any comments? Advice? I am not the best instructor so anything that you think could help him get more enjoyment out of his hitting is appreciated.

The videos have been a great tool, as poor as they are. He loves watching himself hit. He gets to see the results of both good swings and bad. He swings for the fences and thinks he can get there. All in good time big man, all in good time.

So basically how you get to the ball is what's important and the rest is just your momentum carrying forward? If he can release his top hand and still keep his head down through contact that is ok? This is probably a very fine line especially at his age, but it may make staying balanced through the swing easier. I don't know?

I know this is a high school site and I am sure you tire of looking at a young kid swing, but thanks for the time.

Tim

Deacon

He is extending his front arm too much too soon which will cause him to develop bad hitting habits. We call these hitters "sweeper swingers". Arms should not be this extended which I believe can be attributed to the bat he is swinging which is obviously too heavy for him at this age.

Get him a lighter bat and work on maintaining angles in arms by pulling hands and wrists along with handle of bat in close to his body when coming forward. This will help Adian stay inside of baseball as hitter. Have Adian also lead out with lowerbody and keep bat back until his frontside is in hitting position. Good instructors call this, "HITTING AGAINST A FIRM/RIGID FRONTSIDE". Key to Success, IMHO.

Hope this helps out Peace, Shep
PS(In the book, "Prophet of the Sandlots" you will gain valuable inforamation and I highly recommend this book for anyone serious about baseball and hitting. The lowerbody constitutes more than most realize in baseball related movements whether it be hitting OR throwing. The foundation of the strongest muscles in the body is impirical in the unlocking mechanism of the "Total Swing". Peace, Shep

Thanks Shep, means a lot that you took the time. The bat is too heavy. He has a lighter one and should be swinging it instead. The bat in the video should probably not come back out for a few years. Problem is he knows it's here. He cares not for what kids his age and size are into. He sees his big friends swinging there big bats and that is all that matters. I am doing him no favors there I know and I will have to discipline myself better to help him. I'll do it.

Is the straightening of the arms what they call catsing the hands? I think I know what you are talking about there. He sees it too and we both know that he hits better when he can keep them in close. We were talking about that while looking at videos this evening. I go back and forth between his best vids and some clips of pros hitting shots. He's a smart kid and is a sponge when it comes to this stuff.

Thanks for the comment on the bat. I needed that. The bigger bat has more "pop" when he does connect. It may make him feel good, and his dad as well, but it's not doing him any favors.

And thanks for the heads up on the book.

Tim

Rather than emphasizing swinging thru the ball would focus on maintaining posture and holding the swing plane as this seems to be a problem area with kids breaking down during the swing.

Thanks Deacon, I need to start posting down in Hitting Threads again, I've just been so darn busy lately but I vow to do better here

Casting the bat is another no no for sure. Some coaches teach their players to throw the barrel out at the ball on middle to outside pitches which is an incorrect teaching cue which leads to relying on arms and hands too much without setting the firm/rigid front side before what I think should be described as "COMING Forward by turning" in order to take the barrel to the ball correctly in pitch location which should be batspeed created from lowerbody foundation.
Sounds like Adian is teachable which is key
I've seen a lot of hard-headed ones through the years-lol! Peace, Shep

Anyone looking for an almost brand new Kelley N. Fuego 29/20? If you know anyone send them my way. I was fooling myself by thinking he might be able to handle this thing. I can see that it might do a lot more harm than good. I think it would be best to just get this thing out of the house until he is ready.

Deacon, pretty good swing. I agree with Shep, barring the arm and will be a hard habit to break the longer he does it. I however, do not see any casting. A barred arm doesn't always mean casted hands. I also, think he rolls his top hand over to soon after contact. I'll disagree with the DOG, which I don't often do, about the finish. Its important to finish with the hands in the direction of contact and to do so with the top hand facing palm up. Once the arms are extended and the swing begins to move in the diection of the shoulder then will he role is top hand over. It's also important to finish high. 2 hands or 1 is more of a style and comfort to each individual hitter.

Let me ask you this, How heavy is the bat he is using and how old is he? That bat just looks like its heavy as he swings it.

It is heavy. It's 29/20. He is only 7 and a little over 4'2" tall. I know. Bad dad!! He practices a lot with his bigger, older friends. When he was swinging their bats of about the same size he was hitting well. I got the bat with the intention of not taking it out at least until this coming Spring season. I messed up and let him swing it a couple of times and now he grabs it when ever we go out.

He hits the ball pretty well with it, but that is not the point I know. I have had him watch videos with that bat and with his lighter bat as well. He knows he is faster with less effort with the smaller bat, but he is 7. Dad has to be the adult here.

Thanks very much for your input Vance.

As for barred arms. I was showing him some videos tonight of a few pros. The way the bat seems to stay in the same position. The hands and bat are the same distance from the shoulder or head. The shoulders may ease back into the catcher a bit, but the bat stay in th esame relation to the body. As the hips and shoulders rotate forward the arm then begins to straighten some as the shoulder begins to pull it around. It does however stay bent allowing for adjustments to be made during the swing. Am I getting this at all?

A high finish and good rotation of the hips and shoulders should allow him to keep the hands from turning over until well after contact, correct?

Tim

Here is the other bat this morning. It's 28/17.5 and still may be a bit heavy, but he caught this one.

Another swing...

I really see the arm now I think. Especially when I slow it down or catch it on pause. We'll keep after it. I have noticed this before. He seems to do it more on slower pitches or off of the Tee. I guess it is just kind of natural to think the farther you reahc back the harder you will swing. He'll catch on and we'll have a blast learning together.

Thanks again,

Tim

Tim...wrist rolling is a function of the hips not turning in front of the swing by some margin.

It is easy to prove by keeping you back foot on the ground throughout you whole swing. Having the back foot stay on the ground will stop the hips and you top hand MUST roll over to keep the bat moving.

That will allow you to see what is happening.

You need to teach mechanics with that Swiftstik more for now. That bat is too heavy for him.

Got it. Thanks for your time everyone.

Tim and Aidan

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

It's also important to finish high.

Williams, Mantle, and Ruth didn't finish high.....

They finished low....

They all had a lot of linear movement. Hitting in golf and baseball has centered around fixing a rotational axis point at least once the heel goes down. If you build a machine to rotate and swing like a baseball player, the bat will return to the plane it left if you rotate around a central point. If you move your head forward the bat will finish lower. Those three did.

Rob Ellis has a tape "The Lost Secrests of Hitting." In it he proposes the flat, low roll-over as advantageous for a hitter because the greats of old had it. He shows those hitters and others with the low finish. Look at all the swings that finish low (Ichiro, for example) -- the head is moving forward during the swing.

If you teach a fixed rotational axis (at least when the front heal lands), then a hitter would have to fight over the finish to finish low.

Question. Could positioning him a little closer to the plate help with the barred arms thing? If he gets in kind of close he will have to keep his hands in tight in order to put the bat on the ball. I know this is somewhat individual, but what is a good distance form the plate? I have heard to set the bat down on the ground reaching the outside edge and to set up at the end of the bat. Is this a good rule of thumb?

Thanks,

Tim

You can finish low, you can finish high. The follow thru should be a continuation of the swing. For that reason I prefer finishing high.

If you take the entire swing and play it backwards it should be one continous stroke.

Here's more... The high pitch is not the one you should finish the highest on.

If we are going to watch Big League hitters... Let's really watch them... Including where most of them finish their swing. We will see both high and lower finishes, but I'm willing to bet there are MANY more high finishes. Many More!

If it's really true that the follow through and finish doesn't matter... Why do we see so many high finishes. If the finish doesn't matter wouldn't they all finish low? After all, that is the natural place to finish unless you want to finish high!

Sorry, I do hate to give BlueDog more fodder, but that is my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
You can finish low, you can finish high. The follow thru should be a continuation of the swing. For that reason I prefer finishing high.

If you take the entire swing and play it backwards it should be one continous stroke.

Bingo!

One continuous stroke.

NOT one axe chop. That is metal bat baseball. Not wood baseball.

DOGGIE

Another simple,question for your fertile mind--if you dont teach high and your dont teach low in terms of finishing what do you teach?

Actually - PG staff said he would be willing to bet that MANY more great hitters finished high.

You are distorting the message Bluedog.

Read carefully. Then respond.

LOL

Doggie


again with the no answer BS--if both are wrong what do you teach?--I bet you don't--you just babble and criticize --easy in cyberspace--I will stay with PG and ITS--at least I know they background in baseball and it isnt in a garage

So, could setting up a little closer to the plate help with keeping the hands in at the beginning of the swing? I know that is not the root of the problem(heavy bat and poor coach), but could it help or am I going about this all wrong?

Let's pretend for Bluedog's sake that he writes his name in the air with the head of the bat after each swing. I don't care. I want to help him get to the ball correctly. Is there a good picture or clip that shows proper angle of arms and elbow position that comes to mind.

Thanks,

Tim

Bluedog, you do keep it interesting.

Deacon, No it wouldn't help. He will still do the same thing because its his way of loading his hands. Its how he feels strong. He must learn to feel strong from the hips and not from the arms.

As for the finish high finish low thing. Look at what I wrote. Its a STYLE THING. Mantles style was to finish low, McGuires style was to finish high. Normally the guys who finish low have more of a fish hook finish and the guys who finish high do not. What is important however is that AFTER CONTACT the hands extend the arms in the direction of contact in a palm up relation with the top hand.

Tim


But can he give anyone an answer instead of blasting all other opinions and theories

We're working on it Blue. Thanks Vance. If I take this animation and show him the bent front elbow here, is this what we are looking for?

animation of swing

He seems to have the angles down as far as shoulder and bat plane. Just dragging the bat, needs to keep head down and eyes on ball, and pulling out at the end.

But then the end of the swing is meaningless right?

Thanks again guys.

Tim

Deacon,

If you look closely - that skinny fella in the animation thing - about half way through his swing - takes his eye completely off the ball.

That skeleton needs some work - and he needs to eat a little pasta too. If he gets hit with a pitch - its gonna hurt. IMO

Absolutely brilliant Blue!!

Apples are not what you want to eat.......

Thanks Blue. Can you tell me what he should be focusing on? I think you probably have some good ideas in there. Just letting them fly seems to be the issue. These guys will take it easy on you if you share here Blue. I know they will.

Can anyone give me a drill or something to help with the barred arms. I see what he is doing and I think I know what it should look like, but how do I help him get there in practice?

Thanks,

Tim

For the record Bluedog. I do appreciate your input even if it is a little vague at times.

Ok, I just can't help myself. Has anyone ever had a coach or hitting instructor of any kind tell a kid not to keep his head down and eyes on the ball? Blue, please explain this. I have to hear more.

Again, is there a drill or some specific instruction I can give the boy to help him keep from barring his arms?

Thanks,

Tim

Only 7YO??

Wait a couple of years and start again. Or keep him with a plastic bat & wiffle balls. Please.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Once the ball touches the bat, nothing else matters......The follow-through is meaningless......Laws of physics......

Not quite true, as it ignores biomechanics.

For instance, if the bat were to stop immediately after contact - would the ball go as far as if the swing continued? Nope.

Why? Because that means the deceleration of the arms, etc. would have to start before contact. Thus there would be less batspeed at contact.

I taught my hitters the following. If, at the end of follow through, the bottom hand pulled the bat out of the top hand due to front arm extension, this was okay. They were not to consciously turn loose of the bat. I found that consciously turning loose often led to the top hand releasing too soon - degrading power & control.

quote:

Has anyone ever had a coach or hitting instructor of any kind tell a kid not to keep his head down

Most good hitters keep their head still rather than have their head go down. It's just a matter of semantics. Maintaining good posture (Head alligned with spine) is more important than doing something you can't do...see the ball hit the bat. Having the head "down" is actually poor posture.

Of course, this is a matter of defintion in determining how much is "down".


Try this link...http://www.newyorkrangers.cz/mlb/images/pujols.jpg This is proper posture, and he's not looking down at home plate.

Sometimes the verbal cue of "keep your head down" can help keep a kid from turning their face up to the sky when they swing.

Different verbal cues can achieve the desired end effect with different kids. Verbal cues are sometimes not "accurate" when taken literally.

I have a still of my kid hitting a homerun at contact. His eyes are in front of the plate, not down on the ball. You will find the same with many (not all) stills of MLB players. The ball gets to the plate quickly.

The bottom hand does not take the top hand...
Both work as a unit. Since the bottom hand is attached to the lead side, it continues the swing while the top hand starts to drag the system because it is attached to the back half.

I teach hit the front of the ball through the back of the ball. However, I don't need to say anything about follow through. It will be a physical response to all that happened before it. I'm with Blue on this.

Texan,

You are right on target. The idea of keeeping your head "down" is an old verbal cue used by many to re-enforce the idea of watching the ball from release to contact and following it after contact. One of the biggest and most common swing faults is "looking up",
"peeking" or whatever other term you can you think of to describe the head turning off the ball before contact. Think of it as a marksman preparing to shoot a target. He going to have a hard time doing that if he turns head 20 to 30 degrees away from the target.

The head wants to be steady as it can be. You are trying to move a round hitting surface through space to contact a moving round object.
It only gets more difficult if your eyes cannot focus on the ball because your head is moving all over the place.

Your head comes out because of the bottom half either stepping out, stepping too far open, dropping hands and sweeping... Not because you look up. Look down at your player's feet next time you yell "keep your head down."

I guess a better term than "down" would be "still". I had a couple of kids on this years team that had a real problem keeping their head from flying up after contact, my boy included. They were having a terrible time making contact and were not having much fun. I imagined a line drawn from the eyes, through the point of contact, and to the ground. I placed a ball on the ground at that point and told the kids to try and find that ball after making contact with the pitch. It seemed to help if only to keep the head more still.

In the case of the Pujols pic, the line from the eyes, through point of contact, to the ground would have a ball sitting somewhere in right center I guess. He is focused on the ball though isn't he?

Seeing it click and the kids having more fun playing because of it is the reward.

Not necessarily, bbpapa. Sometimes the front shoulder is flying open even thought the footwork is good. Sometimes the back shoulder is dipping.

Diagnosing the problem is one thing. Finding the appropriate verbal cue that "clicks" with the player is another. Sometimes, the latter is more difficult than the former. This was not a favorite verbal cue of mine. But the important thing is to find the verbal cue that works for that specific player - even though it may not be technically "accurate".

FACT:

Nobody understands anything about hitting but the DOGGIE--I have come to that conclusion

Not only that he has yet to ever , in 941 posts, answer a question

Doggie

as a batter if you dont look at the ball what do you look at?

Like I said - the skeleton has some issues.

As for looking down - Bluedog raised that red herring.

Here is the question - why does the skeleton - midway threw the swing - turn his head to the left at about 100 degrees - then turn it back to the ball.

Here is the answer - He is an animated skeleton.
A poorly animated skeleton.

Get some meat on that boy and reprogram a bit - please.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

For instance, if the bat were to stop immediately after contact - would the ball go as far as if the swing continued? Nope.

Why? Because that means the deceleration of the arms, etc. would have to start before contact. Thus there would be less batspeed at contact.

This is absolutely not true.....A result of someone who has no understanding of motor control movements.....

This is absolutely right. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the human body to stop any motion instantaneously. There is always deceleration required. The faster the motion, the greater the mass, the longer the deceleration.

I'm sorry, but your statement just blew any credence you might have had.

Adding to that point - did you ever see Tiger Woods "chop" at the ball? LOL

Or how about Jack Nicklaus?

Or Roberto Clemente?

I guess it really irritates me when I know that kids are coming on here and reading some of the Bluedog tripe.

Just inane troll nonsense. IMO.

Bluedog,

What exactly do you have against birds?

LOL

Later dude - its been fun.

oooooo YOda....


I give up.....why oh master would any hitter actually not want to watch the ball hit the bat ?

Let me guess.... you teach players to do tee drills while they stare at an eye chart 60 feet away instead of looking at the ball

Since their is no definitive program of instruction that will deliver the results that hitters are looking for it would be advisable that all listen to all and then weigh the suggestions given.

Just as all hitters are unique unto themselves, the instruction for each should be equally unique.

Instruction would be an adjunct to the fundamentals of the at bat.

Yoda,

I still have seen no answer from you about anything here.....if you cant offer anything but more useless yodaisms, step aside and let others who have actually played and coached this game offer useful advice to the young men who are asking for it.

Yuo pose a question, put down everyone elses reponses then claim they do not know anything.

So once again, please enlighten us with your wisdom....

EXACTLY what should a player be watching and how is he using his vision?

NH

How can anyone hit a baseball if they don't focus on it ?---perhaps BD knows soomething we don't know because he appears to be all knowing or at least he wants us to believe that

TR,

LOL....im not sure....i think maybe its a force thing......

TR,

Last time I checked, it was pretty important to focus on the ball to determine what the pitch was and to watch for late movement.

Rather hard to hit a 6-12 curve if your not watching it to the bat.

BD, you need to either study physics and become educated, or quit talking about it.

There is such a thing as late movement and it can be fully explained and described by the laws of physics.

I have pointed out two incorrect statements you have made. You have notably failed to respond to either of those specific issues. Why? Because you are unable to do so.

Gravity & the magnus effects of spin have greater effect on the ball's flight at the latter portion of the flight. This has been shown by calculation and measurement. Very fundamental physics, that you apparently fail to grasp.

Applied physics is also referred to as engineering - which I hold a degree in.

If you wish to throw around phrases like "the laws of physics", please gain some knowledge of them beforehand.

Not about to enter a physics debate as to whether a pitched ball can have late movement...however if it appears have late movement to the guy standing in the batters box holding a bat in his hands...it's effective nonetheless.

Sometimes perception is all that matters.

Welcome back Yoda,

I see you stil are offering no answers to anyones questions but you still feel the need to continue to prove yourself a complete moron.

It is obvious you have never even stepped onto a baseball field, let alone played the game.

Anyone who doesnt believe in late movement only has to go behind the plate and catch a bullpen session. (Yoda, for you go to the library...check the encyclopedia for the terms lift and drag and there meaning in the world of aerodynamics....read carefully...and even you will learn something)

I (and everyone else on this site) am waiting for you explain even one of these foolish theories of yours. Or offer up even one person you have ever taught....but then again, that would mean you could actually teach.

-----------------------------------------

Enough of the Yoda digression....

Texan your right, physics explains it all. Nice to see a fellow engineer out here.

Is it me or is BD still not answering but just spewing the normal "you don't know anything" garbage

TR,

No,...its not just you....lol

Believe me, Yoda is providing a whole lot of comic relief to some professional baseball people I know. They just hope no young kids take any thing he spouts seriously at all.

My sons AL coach tells me he sees guys like this all the time. He always researches people who ask if they can teach lessons in his facility. He says its very common to have people claim they played at a school during certain years. Well, he is extremely connected in the college & pro baseball world. With just a couple of calls, he will know if you are who you claim to be.

Side note, ...Pedro had a HARD night..only 3 innings...Sox crushed him

Nope, it's not you TR.

The poor fellow apparently can't answer and can't admit he is mistaken, so he resorts to throwing insults and spewing ridicule.

It is perfectly okay not to possess some particular knowledge. But it is a shame when there apparently is no interest in learning. Especially when someone represents himself as an expert.

For the sake of those around you, Bluedog, be willing to learn.

I have been saying this for years - and have taken
a serious "cyber beating" from the troll circus.

"This dog cant hunt."

LOL

What dog can't hunt!! Bring him to me. I'll learn him!! Finally a subject I do know a little something about.

Deacon's Point Outfitters

Saw an opening, couldn't resist. Shameless plug, won't happen again.

Ahhh Jedi Master, the force is strong within you. I just wish I could understand a word you say. I think.

Tim

Deacon,

Take it from me - Bluedog would probably tell your hunting dogs that they are using their noses all wrong.

LOL

quote:

Take it from me - Bluedog would probably tell your hunting dogs that they are using their noses all wrong.

Using the nose is not what you want them to do.....

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

Next up:

An animated skeletal Labrador Retriever - "creating chaos" by smacking his paws into a 300 pound bag of sand".

LOL

TEXAN-

I think you stumped the Dog on the curved flight path of a spinning object...

I already had a discussion with him a while back when he was busy disproving Newtons laws of motion...

Brain, Dog understands... physics - no so good.

quote:

I think you stumped the Dog on the curved flight path of a spinning object

Nawp, egg balls, we've covered that before in nauseous detail, long, long before your time, and I am convinced, the Blue Dog is an omnisicous expert.

Whatever you are doing, if you are not doing it he BlueDog way, you are doing it wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
I started a thread so we can discuss the physics of a pitched baseball......Bring your research to back up your beliefs.....If you have any......All you birdbrains are invited.....

LOL

Thats special.

LOL