Agent's Fees

Pops, it is not that difficult.

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As far as Sheff and Shill being big draws,

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I don't mean fan draws,(even though they are) I mean being in demand , right player, right place, right owner, right money.

You prove my point by stating what they signed for. They are nearing the end of their value cycle or they would have gotten more money. it is not an agent thing. It is a supply and demand thing. You get what the market will bear. There is more value placed on Sheffield and Shilling right now than the other players. No question.
The real question is does any of the three other players have the value to the RedSox or the Yankees that Sheff and Shill do? Of course not, or they would have gotten the offers.

You talk about Gonzalez having a good second half of the season, what kind of season did Alomar have?

You cannot blame this situation on agents. It makes no sense. Apples and Oranges.

"I love the HSBBW"

I think what Schilling and Sheffield did was........homework. They ended up going to the teams that they wanted to go to at a price that they are happy with, and they did it without paying an agents fee.

Bighit15, When you ask what kind of season did Alomar have? He had a season where he showed that he is going downhill. It is similar to what Schilling did at age 37, except that Schilling came out a winner at contract time.

just for arguments sake. Was Shilling's season a result of going downhill or not pitching for a very good team? Would he have been 13-4 with the Yanks or Sox? Did injury play a part? Do you think Alomar would have been better anywhere?

Scout,

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I think what Schilling and Sheffield did was........homework. They ended up going to the teams that they wanted to go to at a price that they are happy with, and they did it without paying an agents fee.

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That is an understatement of the year. They were in high demand by the 2 organizations that are unafraid to pay for services. I would agree, but you did not have to be a brain surgeon to figure that one out if you were the player.

The real issue is could they have gotten a lot more with agents. Who knows? Probably!

"I love the HSBBW"

Bighit,

Nawp, I'm not an expert.

But my son might need an agent one of these days just like yours might.

And that's why I am keeping score.

So far PG has it by 2.

And he ain't even an agent.

But I have appreciated the dialogue amongst the "agents".

One would think that "agents" posting right here amongst several hundred potential clients might act a little differently.............

By the way, that was me with the snow cone stand at the chili cookoff in Houston....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops:
"Relax Bighit and enjoy all the wonderful posts by mr voodoo, the anonymous agent. He brushes off Mr Aurilia, Mr Alomar and Mr Gonzalez as over the hill. That is when a good agent would earn his money, and actually if you check Mr Gonzalez' stats for half a season"

***215*** what does that number have to do with Juan Gonzales? The number of HR's he's hit in the last 4 years? NO! the number of RBI's the last 2 years? NO! It's the number of days he's spent on the DL the last 4 years. He's also a year older & as players get older they tend to spend MORE time on the DL not less. Also, if you look up "head case" in the dictionary you may see an autographed picture of Juan Gone as illustration. Remember, this is the guy who refused to play in a game because his pants weren't tailored properly. Why do you think that teams dying for hitters like LA, Balt. & the Mets wouldn't touch this guy with a 20 ft. pole? And you're enthused about 1/2 season's stats with a team playing meaningless games?

So particularly for a small revenue team like KC, this move represents a HUGE risk. I really hope it works for KC because Allard Baird is one of the truly nice guys in MLB, but I wouldn't bet your house on it Pops.

"Mr Schilling, who negotiated a fine deal for himself at 37 years of age,

"coming off a year where he went 8-9."

Schilling is a warrior who only went 8-9 because of an appendectomy & broken hand. He's not a fragile piece of glass like Gonzo.

With his track record & the leverage he had being in the final year of his contract with a no-trade clause believe me he could have done exactly what he wanted for better terms & more money. He cost himself 20% at least but then he did save the 5% he would have paid his agent. Don't know what college you went to, but the Professors in my Biz classes would say that's a bad deal any way you slice it.

"The owners are showing some restraint"

What the owners are doing is colluding which will end up costing them hundreds of millions when the damages are paid.

"and we will now find out who is an agent and who is a fraud. No wonder voodoo wants to stay anonymous, he is scared to death"

No I'm not scared Pops. All of my clients are signed to better deals within the context of their abilitiies than Schilling, Sheffield or Aurilia got.

While we're on the subject of Aurilia & Sheffield. Aurilia has the range of a parking meter & is one of the slowest SS in the game which in Seattle, an organization bulit on speed & defense will make him a huge liability & I doubt he'll hit well enough to offset the runs he gives up. Why do you think they only gave him a one year contract?

I wouldn't have Sheffield on my team if he paid me. He makes Juan Gone look sane. Just ask the 7 kids he's got with 5 different mothers. A fine role model for the young players in the NY organization. What's the over/under line on when George buries the guy in the NY papers? A week into the season? A month? That ticking sound you're hearing Pops is the time bomb waiting to go off inside Gary's head. Why do you think a player with his bat is on his 6th team in 11 years?

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Originally posted by bbscout:
I think what Schilling and Sheffield did was........homework. They ended up going to the teams that they wanted to go to at a price that they are happy with, and they did it without paying an agents fee.

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Nice try but it's GUARANTEED as I stated in a previous post, Schilling cost himself at least 20%. Where's the proof you may ask? Watch what Pedro, who's never pitched in the WS or been as durable/reliable but IS even more of a Prima Dona than Schilling gets when he signs his next deal.

But then Schilling did save himself that all important 5%.

I have but one thing to say--if 'voodoochile" is truly an agent, as he says he is, I sure wouldn't want him near my kid or in my living room--- that is one heck of an abrasive, know it all attitude !!!!

TRhit

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--- that is one heck of an abrasive, know it all attitude !!!!

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The same has been said about you and I!

"I love the HSBBW"

Schilling and Sheffield's contracts should in no way be understood as the norm. Generally speaking, a player is at a distinct disadvantage when negotiating his own contract. Moreover, player's who do so tend to take the negotiations a lot more personally.

It is not easy for a top ballplayer to go back-and-forth with a team GM who is trying to convince the particular athlete he is not worth his asking price, or that he can go fetch another ballplayer at a cheaper price.

To go through that, and then eventually have to play for the same group can be burdensome for the player. The agent's presence minimizes such an effect.

In Schilling and Sheffield's cases, the reason they received a raise, contrary to Gonzalez and Alomar, goes far beyond market and demand.

In both situations, top management was under pressure to get both deals done. Hence, their (the players) had much more leverage than if they were regular free agents.

Also, both are still star players who can be important individuals both in the clubhouse and on the field. To guys like Steinbrenner and Lucchino/Epstein, signing these players represents a) wins, b) increased gate revenues, and c) excitement in their community, which, in turn, brings in more outside revenue such as sponsorships.

I doubt their will come a time in which agents become expendable.

Just remember this, agents are like doctors and lawyers (bare with me). Everyone criticizes all lawyers and doctors, except their own. The one they visit. The one they trust. To most, all lawyers and doctors are scumbags, "except Dr./Attorney ___, he's my Dr./Attorney, and he's not like that."

What I'm getting at is that an agent is supposed to watch out for his client's interest, and the general perception of us as greedy and sellfish is just that, a perception that not necessarily reflects the reality of it.

Said reality is best viewed from an individual ballplayer's perspective.

FM

Good point FM. Nice to hear an agent who can post without sounding rude and arrogant.

BIG

You and I do not claim to be "an agent" and my mother still thinks I am sweet and lovable!!

FM

I second that posted by Mr October!!

TRhit

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Originally posted by TRhit:
I have but one thing to say--if 'voodoochile" is truly an agent, as he says he is, I sure wouldn't want him near my kid or in my living room--- that is one heck of an abrasive, know it all attitude !!!!

TRhit

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Great, You can't win a point on the facts so you have to talk about my attitude.
#1 I AM different in person than on a message board, not that it matters.
#2 I get paid for results.
#3 If I'm not an Agent, I guess my clients must be sending all these commission checks to the wrong guy.

"Originally posted by fmarq7901:
Schilling and Sheffield's contracts should in no way be understood as the norm. Generally speaking, a player is at a distinct disadvantage when negotiating his own contract. Moreover, player's who do so tend to take the negotiations a lot more personally.

It is not easy for a top ballplayer to go back-and-forth with a team GM who is trying to convince the particular athlete he is not worth his asking price, or that he can go fetch another ballplayer at a cheaper price.

To go through that, and then eventually have to play for the same group can be burdensome for the player. The agent's presence minimizes such an effect."

Agreed.

"In both situations, top management was under pressure to get both deals done.Hence, their (the players) had much more leverage than if they were regular free agents "

Wrong. NY's only pressure IS from the guy @ the top. You can say what you want about George but the old man wants to win no ifs, ands or buts about it & for whatever insane reason, George thinks he can help his team win. Having spoken to most of their front office people about this, they preferred Guerrero but it's always George's call to make.

As far as pressure on Boston, they want to be NY & break "the curse". If anything, they will use Schilling to put pressure on Pedro in his negotiations.

"Also, both are still star players who can be important individuals both in the clubhouse"

Schilling yes, Sheffield... NO WAY. Ask any of the players in Atlanta. They couldn't wait for him to leave.

Curt Schilling is where he wants to be.
He negotiated a contract that satisfied him and provided his family plenty of care.
He has more money than he'll ever be able to spend...so what does it matter that maybe someone could have done better??

If Clemens decides to sign a 1 year contract with the Astros...and gets to determine the where and when of it....the travel....the family arrangements....and sign within his predetermined "ballpark" dollar figure and he's happy....Isn't that fabulous that there could be more to it than just the money? Aren't all the accomodations for the families worth a ton?
Even though he is in the "twilight" of his career?

______________________________
By the time you learn how to play the game...
You can't play it anymore ~ Frank Howard

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Originally posted by voodoochile:
"Originally posted by fmarq7901:
Schilling and Sheffield's contracts should in no way be understood as the norm. Generally speaking, a player is at a distinct disadvantage when negotiating his own contract. Moreover, player's who do so tend to take the negotiations a lot more personally.

It is not easy for a top ballplayer to go back-and-forth with a team GM who is trying to convince the particular athlete he is not worth his asking price, or that he can go fetch another ballplayer at a cheaper price.

To go through that, and then eventually have to play for the same group can be burdensome for the player. The agent's presence minimizes such an effect."

Agreed.

"In both situations, top management was under pressure to get both deals done.Hence, their (the players) had much more leverage than if they were regular free agents "

Wrong. NY's only pressure IS from the guy @ the top. You can say what you want about George but the old man wants to win no ifs, ands or buts about it & for whatever insane reason, George thinks he can help his team win. Having spoken to most of their front office people about this, they preferred Guerrero but it's always George's call to make.

As far as pressure on Boston, they want to beat NY & break "the curse". If anything, they will use Schilling to put pressure on Pedro in his negotiations.

"Also, both are still star players who can be important individuals both in the clubhouse"

Schilling yes, Sheffield... NO WAY. Ask any of the players in Atlanta. They couldn't wait for him to leave.

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"Originally posted by Chill:
Curt Schilling is where he wants to be.
He negotiated a contract that satisfied him and provided his family plenty of care.He has more money than he'll ever be able to spend...so what does it matter that maybe someone could have done better?? "

Agreed. Generally all that matters is making the client happy.If that was true in this case, then what difference did it make whether he negotiated the deal or not?

The difference is that He popped off in the press that he could do just as good a job as an Agent. In terms of satisfying himself & his family, he did. In terms of doing as good a job as an experienced Agent, he left AT LEAST $5-10 million on the table. 5% of $35 million is $1.75
million he saved in commissions vs. the $5-10 million his desire to thumb his nose at Agents cost him.

Don't know about your world, but that's alot of money in mine. If he didn't want it, he could have always given it to charity or the HSBBW.

"If Clemens decides to sign a 1 year contract with the Astros...and gets to determine the where and when of it....the travel....the family arrangements....and sign within his predetermined"ballpark" dollar and he's happy....Wha"

Bet the house, the farm AND your IRA that if Rocket comes back, whatever deal he signs will be done by Alan & Randy Hendricks.

voodoo,

I agree that in NY George is the man, but don't you feel he was under pressure to sign a big name bat, of which Sheffield was tops, considering the team's defeat in the playoffs and the exodus of some of the more beloved Yankees (i.e. Pettite, Clemens and Zimmer)?

I believe he was, and made up his mind even before the W.S. was over that, in order to satisfy the N.Y. media and fans, he had to sign Sheffield. Gonzalez nor Guerrero would do.
Additionally, when Pettite, left the pressure increased two-fold, with most N.Y. tabloids explicitly blaming "the boss" for ignoring Pettite's contractual plight.

Anyone else have a take?

FM

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Originally posted by fmarq7901:
voodoo,

I agree that in NY George is the man, but don't you feel he was under pressure to sign a big name bat, of which Sheffield was tops, considering the team's defeat in the playoffs and the exodus of some of the more beloved Yankees (i.e. Pettite, Clemens and Zimmer)?

I believe he was, and made up his mind even before the W.S. was over that, in order to satisfy the N.Y. media and fans, he had to sign Sheffield. Gonzalez nor Guerrero would do.
Additionally, when Pettite, left the pressure increased two-fold, with most N.Y. tabloids explicitly blaming "the boss" for ignoring Pettite's contractual plight.

Anyone else have a take?

FM

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Thought you weren't going to respond to any more of my posts?

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In Schilling and Sheffield's cases, the reason they received a raise, contrary to Gonzalez and Alomar, goes far beyond market and demand.

In both situations, top management was under pressure to get both deals done. Hence, their (the players) had much more leverage than if they were regular free agents.

Also, both are still star players who can be important individuals both in the clubhouse and on the field. To guys like Steinbrenner and Lucchino/Epstein, signing these players represents a) wins, b) increased gate revenues, and c) excitement in their community, which, in turn, brings in more outside revenue such as sponsorships.

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Fmarq,

That is supply and demand. My point was that they held all the cards. They were in demand by those organizations and could have gotten more.

Yes there was more to it, but that is supply and demand.

Nobody pressures George. He pressures himself. Period.

Chill,

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Curt Schilling is where he wants to be.
He negotiated a contract that satisfied him and provided his family plenty of care.
He has more money than he'll ever be able to spend...so what does it matter that maybe someone could have done better??

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All that is true. He also claimed he did not need an agent. The argument is: did he do as good a job as an agent would? I would say no. Curt Shilling started this argument.

Clemons is a rare situation in which, again, he holds all the cards.

Trhit,

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my mother still thinks I am sweet and lovable!!

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I have met you! Just kidding.

"I love the HSBBW"

I disagree with the notion that George doesn't feel the heat, particularly when it comes to the NY media. While he appears to do whatever he desires, George has been successful because he has given his fans and sponsors what they want, which is big name players.

I understand your supply and demand argument. Sheffield was the biggest name bat on the market, and supply wasn't exactly low. George could have gotten Juan Gonzalez, Vlad Guerrero, Miguel Tejada (who would have played 2d), Carlos Beltran (trade), Jose Cruz Jr., and many other big bats who potentially would have been less expensive.

Suppply (sluggers) was considerable, albeit not overwhelming, but the demand George showed in courting Sheff was beyond that of the market. I venture to guess that if George didn't feel the need(pressure) to sign Sheff in order to divert attention from the lost W.S., and the losses of Pettite and Clemens, he would have waited a few more weeks, maybe months, in order to drive the price down.

That's just my take of it.

FM

As one who lived in the NY region for 62 years I can tell you that George lives for the FRONT and BACK page of the NY Daily news and NY Post.

When the Mets get more press than he does he goes crazy !!! He will make a move at that point just for the sake of making a move

When he lost Pettitte,George had to make a big move, good bad or indifferent--just to show he was doing something especially after the Schilling signing in Boston.

TRhit

Sheffield was the logical choice. Juan Gone is over. Tejada and Guerrero(my fav) have not proved that they can perform in the spotlight. Sheff has and George doen't care about chemistry. Sheff was the supply and he knew it. The NY press told him so! So the supply in George's eyes was low. The demand was for Sheff, the only choice of George. The mitigating factors don't change the basic premise.

"I love the HSBBW"

If Juan Gonzalez is healthy, he'll be one of the best hitters in all of baseball. He is still an RBI machine, and will thrive in Kansas City alongside fellow Puerto Rican Carlos Beltran.

FM

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Originally posted by fmarq7901:
If Juan Gonzalez is healthy, he'll be one of the best hitters in all of baseball. He is still an RBI machine, and will thrive in Kansas City alongside fellow Puerto Rican Carlos Beltran.

FM

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The chances of Juan(is)Gone staying helathy for an entire season are as good a Michael Jackson becoming a member of the Green Berets.

Fmarq,

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If Juan Gonzalez is healthy, he'll be one of the best hitters in all of baseball. He is still an RBI machine, and will thrive in Kansas City alongside fellow Puerto Rican Carlos Beltran.

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If my Aunt Rose had a mustache, she would be my Uncle Fred. I mean he spent 200+ days on the disabled list in the last 4 years.

What? He cannot play without a PR player next to him? What is that?

"I love the HSBBW"

The same argument as to Juan's health was made after his stint in Detroit. So-called experts laughed at the possibility of him having another productive season. All Juan did was have one of the best offensive seasons in all of baseball. While he is prone to injury, I wouldn't go so far as to say he is over. Juan himself has told me he is at 100%, which he never did in years past.

Bighit, I never said Juan needed to play with another PR. However, anyone who knows Juan knows he is the type of player who thrives in an atmosphere in which he is comfortable. That is why he's never played in NY , even though he's had the chance to do so for both the Mets and Yankees. With Beltran and some of the other latins, Juan will be happy, much like in Cleveland. That improves his chances of having another stellar season.

FM

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However, anyone who knows Juan knows he is the type of player who thrives in an atmosphere in which he is comfortable. That is why he's never played in NY , even though he's had the chance to do so for both the Mets and Yankees.

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Doesn't speak well of his mental makeup. Does it? It does enhance his headcase tag. Not liking New York is fine. It is one of my fav hobbies. However, being unable to play there beause of the scrutiny is why he is not desired. Nobody wants a choker or headcase.

"I love the HSBBW"

Back to the draft. Now that scouts and organizations are trying to cap what kids get in the draft, so-called slot money, how do negotiations go? I know it depends on the player and/or organization, but, generally speaking, do they come in with slot money from the get go and refuse to negotiate? Do they try and low ball? What should be expected?

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Originally posted by MrOctober:
Back to the draft. Now that scouts and organizations are trying to cap what kids get in the draft, so-called slot money, how do negotiations go? I know it depends on the player and/or organization, but, generally speaking, do they come in with slot money from the get go and refuse to negotiate? Do they try and low ball? What should be expected?

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Expect them to try & keep within the Commissioner's Office guidelines. However, every year, in every round there are exceptions. Your ability to create leverage by having options at your disposal and how you play those options will determine whether you become one of those exceptions or are left with no choice but to sign for "slot" money.

What kind of areas can be used as leverage, besides college commitments?

Any other strategies that scouts use to sucker a kid or his family into signing?

Mr October,

Went to a clubs spring complex and met with a scout. He spent the whole time saying that he would not negotiate, would not talk to an agent, that they were not needed, said that the commisioners office set the slot money and they had no choice in the matter, said whatever offer was made was final, no negotiation. Very heavy handed. Also said that on draft day they would call and ask, will you sign for this much? If you hesitate at all they will pass you by and go on to the next guy.

"I love the HSBBW"

I wasn't joining into the argument.
I was making an observation...
Funny, that the biggest complaint about MLB
is the exhorbitant salaries paid out.
Schilling says- I will negotiate this myself and is attacked for stating he doesn't need an agent. At what point are these "older" players given some credit for being able to determine what "works" for them? And, why does it matter to anyone whether or not an agent "may" have gotten him more money?? Is it all EGO? If it is not the primary concern for him, what business is it of ours? He does just fine with his contributions to charity that he need not worry about having an agent so he will have extra money to give.
Clemens opts to have the brothers represent him. That is his option. He may not care to have anything to do with it.
All a matter a preference, I believe...

______________________________
By the time you learn how to play the game...
You can't play it anymore ~ Frank Howard

Chill,

It is all just mindless conversation. It has been all over the press and this is just a message board with people giving their opinions.

On a strictly intellectual level I find the dynamic interesting. The argument could be made that by negotiating their own contract and leaving money on the table, it is hurting future players ability to negotiate.

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Funny, that the biggest complaint about MLB
is the exhorbitant salaries paid out.

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That is a whole 'nother conversation. It could be argued that with the exhorbitant profits being mad through cable that the athletes(entertainers) deserve their profit as well.

Some might argue that the biggest problem with MLB is the owners not restricting themselves, having anti-trust exemption, and colluding to break the union, while hoarding all that cable money and getting taxpayers to foot the bill for their stadiums. There are 2 sides to every story.

I don't think that anybody's response was meant to be personal.

"I love the HSBBW"

Chill,

The attacks - come from agents - who are not getting an easy piece of the pie anymore. No surprise there. LOL

EGO and MONEY - and another big-ticket lost client. Makes for an unhappy agent. Schilling - and others who follow his lead are sending shivers up the agents spine. (Pops alluded to that very accurately)

More agents will need to get used to it IMO. And not just in baseball. Many will be finding a new profession soon. Makes financial sense for just about everybody IMO.

Also remember - not much here from the owner/GM perspective (exception bbscout - and to a certain extent - PG)
The rest is just speculation and hot air.
Like a newspaper sports editorial, or one of those callin sports radio shows. Folks talking like owners/GM's that havent spent one single minute in that capacity - or anything even close to it - but they know. LOL

Fun to read though.

Chill has made a very good point. Most players use an agent, but some don't, and that is the right of the players. Agents are upset that Schilling and Sheffield did not use an agent. Who knows how much money they would have received if they had used an agent. To say more is just a guess, because they are now signed, and apparently they are pleased, and that is what matters.

There are excellent agents and poor agents, just like ballplayers, scouts and coaches.

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Originally posted by Bighit15:
Mr October,

Went to a clubs spring complex and met with a scout. He spent the whole time saying that he would not negotiate, would not talk to an agent, that they were not needed, said that the commisioners office set the slot money and they had no choice in the matter, said whatever offer was made was final, no negotiation. Very heavy handed. Also said that on draft day they would call and ask, will you sign for this much? If you hesitate at all they will pass you by and go on to the next guy.

"I love the HSBBW"

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Big, That is a very disturbing post to me, as I have signed a lot of players. I talk to the agent if the player wants me to. I have always had to negotiate, and have always had a say in the matter.Never once have I walked in with a final offer (no negotiation)......that is not only wrong, it is absurd. Do you really think that 30 teams are calling every player on draft day and saying "would you sign for this much"? I have called about 3-4 players a few days before the draft and ask them if they would sign for a certain figure. It is not about passing someone by, it is about signability. If I think your player is a 6th rounder and can get a good feeling that he is signable for that type of money, then I will try and get him drafted. If he thinks he is a 2-3rd round guy and deserves that kind of money, then I will pass. No sense drafting someone that you can't sign.

Doug,

It actually happened. I was there. If you want to e=mail me, I will give you more information. Other websters were there also. Who can verify what I said?

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Do you really think that 30 teams are calling every player on draft day and saying "would you sign for this much"?

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I wouldn't think so. Hey, your expert!

EDIT ps, One of my sons teammates from lst year had that very thing happen to him by that club.

"I love the HSBBW"

In defense of agents...
our son's has done so much more than just help with bonus negotiations. In fact, that was minor compared to everything else. He's definately made a huge, positive difference in our lives.

In defense of scouts ...
the area scout who signed our son is a credit to his profession. We never felt that he was trying to sucker us into anything. He seemed genuinely excited about drafting our guy, was very professional during negotiations, and did an outstanding job of patiently answering all of our questions about the organization and minor league life.

On the day our son signed his contract both his agent and scout were with us to celebrate the big occasion. These two professionals made our draft experience wonderful.

QUESTION:

Why would and "agent" come on here and spill his guts as VoodooChile has been doing?

I find that a bit strange

TRhit