The Blue Dog Philosophy--no discussion at all-- you are all wrong if you do not agree with me
I'm only trying to help, TRhit...That's all..... 
Are you really ?--then get off the pedestal and stop telling everyone else that your way is the only way--some others may know more than you--it is possible
Bluedog,
Using Ortiz clip as an example, yes I am able to see hips working open into front foot planting as I mentioned but having difficulty picking up any rotation prior to toe touch and thus appears to be a straight weight transfer.
Question sir - From the moment forward momemtum begins, at what point during the sequence do you detect rotation, or are you saying that it's not a matter of weight transfer momemtum into rotation but the entire sequence of forward momemtum is created by rotation?
Using Ortiz clip as an example, yes I am able to see hips working open into front foot planting as I mentioned but having difficulty picking up any rotation prior to toe touch and thus appears to be a straight weight transfer.
Question sir - From the moment forward momemtum begins, at what point during the sequence do you detect rotation, or are you saying that it's not a matter of weight transfer momemtum into rotation but the entire sequence of forward momemtum is created by rotation?
O.K.....My way is not the only way......There are many ways to swing a bat.....How's that, TRhit?... 
NYdad, hips opening is the beginning of rotation.....
Weight shift momentum first, then rotation....
Weight shift momentum is chaos.......The chaos is controlled and turned into rotation just before footplant......
Weight shift momentum first, then rotation....
Weight shift momentum is chaos.......The chaos is controlled and turned into rotation just before footplant......
Step One--realize you do not know it all
Step Two-- get off your clay pedestal and lose the condescending attitude
Step THREE-- look in the mirror and realize that perhaps, just perhaps, you have something to offer of you present it right
Step Two-- get off your clay pedestal and lose the condescending attitude
Step THREE-- look in the mirror and realize that perhaps, just perhaps, you have something to offer of you present it right
quote:Step One--realize you do not know it all
O.K.....
quote:Step Two-- get off your clay pedestal and lose the condescending attitude
I don't see myself on a pedestal.....Not even close......
You try very hard
Now for step three
Now for step three
quote:Step THREE-- look in the mirror and realize that perhaps, just perhaps, you have something to offer of you present it right
Some understand what I'm saying.....Not everyone will....I'm not trying to save the world......Only those who are looking for a better way.....
BLUE DOG
your attitude is improving
your attitude is improving
Bluedog,
Think you may have misunderstood me as hips opening is certainly beginning of rotation... just don't see hips working open any earlier than toe touch...thus appears to be a straight weight shift until at least toe touch.
Since we've established that it's weight shift momentum first, then rotation just before footplant...Are you saying "just before" is even prior to toe touch?
Think you may have misunderstood me as hips opening is certainly beginning of rotation... just don't see hips working open any earlier than toe touch...thus appears to be a straight weight shift until at least toe touch.
Since we've established that it's weight shift momentum first, then rotation just before footplant...Are you saying "just before" is even prior to toe touch?
I realize that this may sound like hitting blasmephy, but I think that the reason Ortiz and Pujols hit the ball so far is BECAUSE they didn't extend their arms. Think about it like this: when a figure skater wants to start spinning faster, they pull their arms close into their bodies. Less drag = More Bat Speed = Home Runs. Like I said, just a thought.
quote:Think about it like this: when a figure skater wants to start spinning faster, they pull their arms close into their bodies.
Nolan Lees,
I've heard this explanation before. To me the biggest difference is... The figure skater doesn't have to hit a mid 90s fastball or change of speed pitches while he/her is spinning. Just being able to spin fast won't make someone a good hitter.
That is called conservation of angular momentum and the physics are applicable here. The more weight that is transferred near the axis of rotation the fast the potential spin. The faster the spin the greater the bat speed and thus you can hit the ball further.quote:Think about it like this: when a figure skater wants to start spinning faster, they pull their arms close into their bodies.
You can see in the Aaron clip that his back foot actually lifts off the ground (and you can see Pujols and others do the same in other vids) meaning all weight is on the front foot at the time of contact. Of course for hitting outside pitches that short swing isn't possible but for middle-in pitches such a compact swing is ideal for maximizing bat speed. It also bring the sweet spot of the bat closer to the point of contact.
In all these HR vids its pretty consistent that the forward rotation of the hips begin AFTER the front foot comes down. There may be counter rotation of the hips before the foot plants to help load the batter.
It's not possible to forward rotate the hips well while striding because the weight is all on the back foot. You can rotate only in the direction the weight is. Thus the loading/counter rotation happens when the front foot is up in the air so all weight is on the back foot. Once the front foot touches down the weight shifts and forward rotation can commence but not before.
quote:Weight shift momentum is chaos
Doggie..I love ya man but hey....
chaos ?? I suspect it must be a ***** intellectual superiority term to confound and cause submission.
Chaos used in this context helps nobody.
You have to know that is a cooked up word he dug out of some text that he liked and regurgitated up for the " koolaid drinkers"
The more he could confuse and refute; the more control he felt he exerted on others.
It is a syndrome for those needing a superior feeling of pretending to have information people want and giving it to them a drop at a time AFTER they beg you enough.
SICK STUFF MAN..it always makes me laugh when you can type his name and it gets blocked out like profanity...that is kind of a sad tale
On another note
"I realize that this may sound like hitting blasmephy, but I think that the reason Ortiz and Pujols hit the ball so far is BECAUSE they didn't extend their arms."
I don't think they would agree with that, think of that, or use that as a teaching point. Ortiz most posted clip has him jammed . If you poled 1000 MLB players they would say" they want the ball where they can extend on it" You would have to define it another way to get them to agree with that statement.
PGStaff, what they're all overlooking is this fact.....The mind and body's intent to swing begins before front footplant.....And, the physical act to begin the swing does to.....
On extension....Some MLB hitters extend at ball contact.....And, pitch location matters on this, also....The big deal is, when does the extension begin?.....There is a point in time in the swing when extension is O.k.....
On extension....Some MLB hitters extend at ball contact.....And, pitch location matters on this, also....The big deal is, when does the extension begin?.....There is a point in time in the swing when extension is O.k.....
Zdad, swingbuster.... you got it right guys...
besides the actual weights and differences, blah blah blah... we just finished a research project here at local university on angular momentum... on ice skater, with one arm extended and one leg (let's not get into the weight and distance) the ice skater went into a rotation and was spinning at 2 revolutions per second... and without changing anything, except bringing in arms, the ice skater was spinning at 14 rev. per sec....
so, the closer the hands the quick the bathead...
an naturally hands will tend to work away on pitches away... but if player is 13-15 inches off plate.. they can hit pitch low and away with hands slotted the same as inside pitch... just must let the ball travel deeper across th plate...
besides the actual weights and differences, blah blah blah... we just finished a research project here at local university on angular momentum... on ice skater, with one arm extended and one leg (let's not get into the weight and distance) the ice skater went into a rotation and was spinning at 2 revolutions per second... and without changing anything, except bringing in arms, the ice skater was spinning at 14 rev. per sec....
so, the closer the hands the quick the bathead...
an naturally hands will tend to work away on pitches away... but if player is 13-15 inches off plate.. they can hit pitch low and away with hands slotted the same as inside pitch... just must let the ball travel deeper across th plate...
PGstaff-
doesn't matter if skater isn't swinging a bat, that is mute. you want the bathed traveling as fast as possible, yes? two identical swings, one hands away, one hands in - hands in wins every time... physics is physics...
hitting the fastball is going to be accomplished by someone with ability... the person can be more efficient if hands repeatedly stay inside...
doesn't matter if skater isn't swinging a bat, that is mute. you want the bathed traveling as fast as possible, yes? two identical swings, one hands away, one hands in - hands in wins every time... physics is physics...
hitting the fastball is going to be accomplished by someone with ability... the person can be more efficient if hands repeatedly stay inside...
My reference to the figure skater was simply to say just creating bat speed or spinning does not make some one a better hitter. Besides… when figure skaters spin aren’t they on one foot/skate? Most hitters are fairly spread out at contact rather than every part of their body in tight to revolve faster. I understand the theory behind, hands in tight, creating more bat head speed. However, everyone is stating the obvious here. You simply can’t hit a pitch on the inner half correctly with out the hands staying in. If your hands aren’t in close a hitter will wrap around the ball and hook it. The point is… All pitches are not on the inside half.
All this stuff makes sense, but timing and getting the sweet spot to the ball are the most important things. Without that, bat head speed or how fast someone can spin just doesn’t matter. We hardly ever talk about it here, but to me the thing that most separates the best from the rest is “accuracy”! The best hitters simply are more accurate with their timing and contact. While bat speed is important it is meaningless by itself. There are many hitters with great bat speed who can’t hit with Olerud.
Actually my biggest problem here is using figure skaters as an example or argument. Why not use something closer like ice hockey. How do hockey players hit those hard slap shots? The difference between the figure skater, the hockey player and the baseball hitter is one of them does things the same exact way every time, the other two need to make adjustments based on the ball or the puck.
Bottom line… If you’re using female figure skaters as an example… OK!
I just can’t stand men’s figure skating!
All this stuff makes sense, but timing and getting the sweet spot to the ball are the most important things. Without that, bat head speed or how fast someone can spin just doesn’t matter. We hardly ever talk about it here, but to me the thing that most separates the best from the rest is “accuracy”! The best hitters simply are more accurate with their timing and contact. While bat speed is important it is meaningless by itself. There are many hitters with great bat speed who can’t hit with Olerud.
Actually my biggest problem here is using figure skaters as an example or argument. Why not use something closer like ice hockey. How do hockey players hit those hard slap shots? The difference between the figure skater, the hockey player and the baseball hitter is one of them does things the same exact way every time, the other two need to make adjustments based on the ball or the puck.
Bottom line… If you’re using female figure skaters as an example… OK!
I just can’t stand men’s figure skating!
PGstaff..
okay, agree... we are saying the same thing... that was my point as well.. the hitter has to be a good enough player to be consistent with a good swing and make the proper adjustments on incoming pitch... i was stating (or trying to) that with the hitter being equal, then with hands in, circular hand path, using angular momentum, hitter transfers more energy into ball, ball travels further...
okay, agree... we are saying the same thing... that was my point as well.. the hitter has to be a good enough player to be consistent with a good swing and make the proper adjustments on incoming pitch... i was stating (or trying to) that with the hitter being equal, then with hands in, circular hand path, using angular momentum, hitter transfers more energy into ball, ball travels further...
Any hitter trying to be long through the ball (I have a problem even saying that) is losing efficiency in a big way.....They max their batspeed after the ball is hit, waste their batspeed, and can't transfer swing momentum properly.....
here Dog talks about efficiency and max batspeed, transfering momentum properly...
but how can you transfer momentum EFFICIENTLY if you transfer some through your leg to get a foot plant and then some through your arms to carry bat through swing??? How is it efficient to try and get momentum (energy going in two different directions at same time..???
just curious.
here Dog talks about efficiency and max batspeed, transfering momentum properly...
but how can you transfer momentum EFFICIENTLY if you transfer some through your leg to get a foot plant and then some through your arms to carry bat through swing??? How is it efficient to try and get momentum (energy going in two different directions at same time..???
just curious.
PGStaff,
Faster batspeed = better hitter. Here is why:
A faster bat allows a hitter to wait longer before committing, more time to read the pitch, more time to adjust, etc. In essence, faster batspeed enables all those attributes you named - accuracy, timing, contact.
Conversely, the slow batter with the best timing and accuracy in the world would be forced to commit to the ball early and thus is going to be hopelessly fooled if the ball has any significant movement.
The skating example still applies. Look at some home run vids and you can see some batters actually lift their back foot off the ground completely while rotating. 100% weight on front foot at the time of contact. Think of the batter's foot as the ice and the legs/hips as the skates.
While some will debate linear vs. rotational hitting as to which produces better averages (and I am not going to get into that) the physics are pretty much in favor of rotational for fastest theoretical batspeed.
Bluedog, the batter doesn't commit to a pitch until the hips begin rotating and that is after foot plant. Most batters plant the foot at the time a pitch is released, there is no way the batter committed to a pitch prior to being released.
Faster batspeed = better hitter. Here is why:
A faster bat allows a hitter to wait longer before committing, more time to read the pitch, more time to adjust, etc. In essence, faster batspeed enables all those attributes you named - accuracy, timing, contact.
Conversely, the slow batter with the best timing and accuracy in the world would be forced to commit to the ball early and thus is going to be hopelessly fooled if the ball has any significant movement.
The skating example still applies. Look at some home run vids and you can see some batters actually lift their back foot off the ground completely while rotating. 100% weight on front foot at the time of contact. Think of the batter's foot as the ice and the legs/hips as the skates.
While some will debate linear vs. rotational hitting as to which produces better averages (and I am not going to get into that) the physics are pretty much in favor of rotational for fastest theoretical batspeed.
Bluedog, the batter doesn't commit to a pitch until the hips begin rotating and that is after foot plant. Most batters plant the foot at the time a pitch is released, there is no way the batter committed to a pitch prior to being released.
Zdad- good stuff.
just remember, that as some MLB players generate so much energy that back foot periodically comes off of ground (no bug squishing), their rotating just behind axis (that they set up in stride (or no-stride approach)...
just as Olympic high jumpers get there center of gravity to actually travel under the high bar as they go over the high bar..
just remember, that as some MLB players generate so much energy that back foot periodically comes off of ground (no bug squishing), their rotating just behind axis (that they set up in stride (or no-stride approach)...
just as Olympic high jumpers get there center of gravity to actually travel under the high bar as they go over the high bar..
Z-Dad,
With all due respect. I do understand the advantages involved.
Now please explain how John Olerud became a lifetime .295 hitter with over 250 Hrs and over 1200 RBI in 17 years in the big leagues. Was it because he had better "bat speed = better hitter" than most everyone else? Bat speed by itself means nothing. Bat speed by a good hitter might be another story. In any event your formula (bat speed = better hitter) is not necessarily true.
Did I miss something here? Did someone say a hitter commits before the pitch is released? I've seen lots of hitters start to open their hips and not swing.
With all due respect. I do understand the advantages involved.
Now please explain how John Olerud became a lifetime .295 hitter with over 250 Hrs and over 1200 RBI in 17 years in the big leagues. Was it because he had better "bat speed = better hitter" than most everyone else? Bat speed by itself means nothing. Bat speed by a good hitter might be another story. In any event your formula (bat speed = better hitter) is not necessarily true.
quote:Bluedog, the batter doesn't commit to a pitch until the hips begin rotating and that is after foot plant. Most batters plant the foot at the time a pitch is released, there is no way the batter committed to a pitch prior to being released.
Did I miss something here? Did someone say a hitter commits before the pitch is released? I've seen lots of hitters start to open their hips and not swing.
PGStaff, perhaps it's just semantics. The way I look at it, better batspeed ALWAYS improves a hitter's toolset. It is never a disadvantage. And I don't disagree with you that batspeed is only one element of the toolset. But developing faster batspeed does not take away from other elements of the hitter's toolset, i.e. it's not an exclusive pursuit.
Remember I said faster batspeed = better hitter and not = good hitter. All things being equal, faster = better.
I don't know Olerud's hitting too well (I never perceived his swing to be slow) but I suspect he would say he would always welcome more batspeed.
Remember I said faster batspeed = better hitter and not = good hitter. All things being equal, faster = better.
I don't know Olerud's hitting too well (I never perceived his swing to be slow) but I suspect he would say he would always welcome more batspeed.
Let me throw this into the pot---I find it interesting
SI listed their top 10 sluggers and Pujols was 1 and Giambi was 2--- any thoughts
SI listed their top 10 sluggers and Pujols was 1 and Giambi was 2--- any thoughts
I was reading another forum where one poster was a MLB scout. One of his methods for gauging hitters was capturing them on video in fastball situations and counting the number of frames from the beginning of the swing to contact. (Personal digital video cameras I am told all record frames at the exact same speed, some technological limit.)
If it was 5 or more frames, he would pass on the prospect no matter what the kid's average was. 4-4.5 frames would meet the test. Thought that was a pretty interesting way to judge a prospect.
That got me thinking that this method isn't a bad way to check how fast your kids are swinging. It's always been hard to judge since some kids seem fast but that could be after contact. If 4 frames is a MLB speed swing, then we got something to shoot for.
EDIT: P.S. The scout defined the beginning of the swing as bathead starts moving towards the ball.
If it was 5 or more frames, he would pass on the prospect no matter what the kid's average was. 4-4.5 frames would meet the test. Thought that was a pretty interesting way to judge a prospect.
That got me thinking that this method isn't a bad way to check how fast your kids are swinging. It's always been hard to judge since some kids seem fast but that could be after contact. If 4 frames is a MLB speed swing, then we got something to shoot for.
EDIT: P.S. The scout defined the beginning of the swing as bathead starts moving towards the ball.
Yeah Tr. Giambi and SI are located in NY. Biased.
Just kidding, I couldn't help myself.
I don't know, Giambi is on right now. Are they talking batspeed? Or hitters in general. I still like a lot about Todd Helton even though we don't hear about him.
Just kidding, I couldn't help myself.
I don't know, Giambi is on right now. Are they talking batspeed? Or hitters in general. I still like a lot about Todd Helton even though we don't hear about him.
Sorry Tr, you did mention sluggers. I like Ortiz or course, Pujols, A-Rod, gotta like Texeira even though he's not on and Manny too. Giambi and I'm sure a few others as far as sluggers. D Lee even though he's hurt still has to be considered.
Z-Dad,
Quickness to the ball and optimum bat speed are not exactly the same thing. I've been around for a long time and know it is possible for a hitter to have MLB quickness to the ball and still not be able to hit a lick!
In fact, there are those who have beautiful swings, create plus bat speed, show quickness to the ball, but can't hit. I've seen a lot of them.
It's kind of like the guy with plus speed who doesn't have the ability to use it in the game because of poor instincts.
Video is very helpful, but you can't draft a kid because of the number of frames it takes him to get to the ball. That can be important of course, but picking hitters can't possibly be as easy as just counting frames on the video.
I do agree that, that method can be very valuable when working with hitters.
Quickness to the ball and optimum bat speed are not exactly the same thing. I've been around for a long time and know it is possible for a hitter to have MLB quickness to the ball and still not be able to hit a lick!
In fact, there are those who have beautiful swings, create plus bat speed, show quickness to the ball, but can't hit. I've seen a lot of them.
It's kind of like the guy with plus speed who doesn't have the ability to use it in the game because of poor instincts.
Video is very helpful, but you can't draft a kid because of the number of frames it takes him to get to the ball. That can be important of course, but picking hitters can't possibly be as easy as just counting frames on the video.
I do agree that, that method can be very valuable when working with hitters.
quote:Most batters plant the foot at the time a pitch is released
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=11&n=1&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
Does anyone believe this nonsense???
quote:In essence, faster batspeed enables all those attributes you named - accuracy, timing, contact.
Z-Dad, faster batspeed enables none of the above......
PG, You touched on something I was gonna throw on the table and that is bat quickness which is different than bat speed...how quickly the hitter gets the bat into the swing plane (bat quickness) is equally as important as how fast the bat is traveling thru the plane (bat speed).
NYdad, batspeed is something you need not concern yourself with.....Concentrate on proper technique and the batspeed will be more than adequate....
Bat quickness you do need to concern yourself with.....It is of the utmost importance and is a very big contributor to why MLB hitters are the best in the world.....
To be perfectly clear......Batspeed and bat quickness are not of equal importance.....
Bat quickness reigns supreme......
Bat quickness you do need to concern yourself with.....It is of the utmost importance and is a very big contributor to why MLB hitters are the best in the world.....
To be perfectly clear......Batspeed and bat quickness are not of equal importance.....
Bat quickness reigns supreme......
PGStaff, you keep talking about faster batspeed as if it is a mutually exclusive trait. It's not. Take two batters with EQUAL skills in everything EXCEPT batspeed. The one with the faster batspeed is going to be better. That's all I am trying to communicate when I say faster batspeed = better hitter. And every batter would like to have faster batspeed if nothing else is sacrificed.
Why?
Batspeed is going to dictate the maximum distance a batter can hit with all other variables held EQUAL.
Having faster batspeed enables batters to wait longer on pitches = more time to read a pitch = better adjustment to pitch = accuracy. If people want to argue that bat quickness is different and offers the same benefit I won't argue that but point out that both are not mutual exclusive.
Now if that poster I mentioned really is a MLB scout well that's one scout who has verbalized that slow batspeed is going drop a kid from consideration.
P.S. Unlike Bluedog I can admit I am wrong about timing of the footplant. But that was to emphasize the point that in no way does a hitter commit to a pitch prior to footplant. When the hips move, that's the commitment.
Why?
Batspeed is going to dictate the maximum distance a batter can hit with all other variables held EQUAL.
Having faster batspeed enables batters to wait longer on pitches = more time to read a pitch = better adjustment to pitch = accuracy. If people want to argue that bat quickness is different and offers the same benefit I won't argue that but point out that both are not mutual exclusive.
Now if that poster I mentioned really is a MLB scout well that's one scout who has verbalized that slow batspeed is going drop a kid from consideration.
P.S. Unlike Bluedog I can admit I am wrong about timing of the footplant. But that was to emphasize the point that in no way does a hitter commit to a pitch prior to footplant. When the hips move, that's the commitment.
quote:Batspeed is going to dictate the maximum distance a batter can hit with all other variables held EQUAL.
This is the only statement you have made that is true......You do not understand batspeed or bat quickness.....
quote:Unlike Bluedog I can admit I am wrong about timing of the footplant. But that was to emphasize the point that in no way does a hitter commit to a pitch prior to footplant. When the hips move, that's the commitment
You are wrong about all of what you say.....
A hitter doesn't have time to commit to a swing after foot plant.....Foot plant happens to late to begin the swing....And, the hips begin rotating before foot plant....If they didn't, the swing would be way late....
THE BATTING G-O-D has spoken but none of us know who or what he has taught outside of cyberspace--and what were the results-- all he does is tell everyone else they are wrong
I am sure glad I had my dad and the coaches I had in my youth because they talked to me in a language I could understand and they spent hour sin the cage pitching to me as they taught me
I am sure glad I had my dad and the coaches I had in my youth because they talked to me in a language I could understand and they spent hour sin the cage pitching to me as they taught me
