Kyle B- Agree 100%. The original conversation I had was more or less directed at my particular case, as a college pitcher coming off TJ surgery. But all responses above, by JPontiac, Coach Robins and yourself I feel are outstanding. Thanks for sharing.
I think the best to approach the back squat is like this:
1. Assess first, whats going on in the shoulder, is there enough thoracic (upper back) mobility present to make this a safe movement?
2. If they are a pitcher, or have an existing or previous elbow or shoulder injury, don't use it.
3. If they are a healthy position player, who has a good assessment, then it's an option.
There's lots of options. They all work. Things like consistency, technique coaching, good programming and hard work need to be constants. First and foremost don't hurt yourself in the weight room, that's not your bread and butter playing ball is.
1. Assess first, whats going on in the shoulder, is there enough thoracic (upper back) mobility present to make this a safe movement?
2. If they are a pitcher, or have an existing or previous elbow or shoulder injury, don't use it.
3. If they are a healthy position player, who has a good assessment, then it's an option.
There's lots of options. They all work. Things like consistency, technique coaching, good programming and hard work need to be constants. First and foremost don't hurt yourself in the weight room, that's not your bread and butter playing ball is.
I've honestly never encountered a thrower that had such poor ER that they couldn't grab a squat bar behind them. If they couldn't, I'd definitely make sure they could at least do something that simple. Most throwers have outstanding external rotation in the throwing arm. Internal tends to be restricted and I'm learning the consequences of that now.
A study on the Tampa Bay Rays spring training was done years ago, and they found about 75% of their players (pitchers and position players) had some amount of fraying/tearing of the labrum. Obviously, the vast majority of them didn't have many problems. It is fair to say that some of them were probably performing to some degree under their potential because of it, though. The amount of tearing is probably not all that significant if preventative measures are taken - taking care of shoulder flexibility (particularly internal rotation), stabilization, and of course a proper throwing program. Letting those things slip up is when further injury is likely. It's just good to keep in mind that your son likely has a labrum tear, it just doesn't hurt yet. Luckily, there aren't really a lot of at risk movements in the weight room...throwing is the main risky labrum movement.
As far as squats go, I think it is a good idea to keep things sub-maximal for athletes that don't necessarily benefit as much from a higher 1RM. I think intensity should be just as high, but it is much safer to lighten the loads on the back and shoot for rep maxes and the like. I also don't think a tremendous amount of volume is necessary. Good programs for athletes don't require a ton of work sets with those higher weights. Work up to that last heavy (but not maximal) set, try to set a rep PR, and then move around some lighter weights. For at risk guys, I'd have them do all the light weight work on SL squats, hack squat machine, etc.
I like the trap-bar DL as a sub for squat, but I don't know that it is truly a lot "safer." I think the squat is really pretty safe for a well-coached trainee. A well-coached trainee doesn't get away with poor form reps. There is some stress on the back, but as was mentioned, this theoretically is meant to increase back strength. I still see the back getting worked in the trap-bar DL so I'm not sure that you gain a whole lot there.
What I tend to see is form getting terrible as volume gets higher. This is why I don't mind a program that has some tough work sets with the ideal lift (squat) with some assistance work in lifts that are a little more difficult to screw up. People just have trouble holding focus deep into a 10-15 rep set.
A study on the Tampa Bay Rays spring training was done years ago, and they found about 75% of their players (pitchers and position players) had some amount of fraying/tearing of the labrum. Obviously, the vast majority of them didn't have many problems. It is fair to say that some of them were probably performing to some degree under their potential because of it, though. The amount of tearing is probably not all that significant if preventative measures are taken - taking care of shoulder flexibility (particularly internal rotation), stabilization, and of course a proper throwing program. Letting those things slip up is when further injury is likely. It's just good to keep in mind that your son likely has a labrum tear, it just doesn't hurt yet. Luckily, there aren't really a lot of at risk movements in the weight room...throwing is the main risky labrum movement.
As far as squats go, I think it is a good idea to keep things sub-maximal for athletes that don't necessarily benefit as much from a higher 1RM. I think intensity should be just as high, but it is much safer to lighten the loads on the back and shoot for rep maxes and the like. I also don't think a tremendous amount of volume is necessary. Good programs for athletes don't require a ton of work sets with those higher weights. Work up to that last heavy (but not maximal) set, try to set a rep PR, and then move around some lighter weights. For at risk guys, I'd have them do all the light weight work on SL squats, hack squat machine, etc.
I like the trap-bar DL as a sub for squat, but I don't know that it is truly a lot "safer." I think the squat is really pretty safe for a well-coached trainee. A well-coached trainee doesn't get away with poor form reps. There is some stress on the back, but as was mentioned, this theoretically is meant to increase back strength. I still see the back getting worked in the trap-bar DL so I'm not sure that you gain a whole lot there.
What I tend to see is form getting terrible as volume gets higher. This is why I don't mind a program that has some tough work sets with the ideal lift (squat) with some assistance work in lifts that are a little more difficult to screw up. People just have trouble holding focus deep into a 10-15 rep set.
quote:throwing is the main risky labrum movement.
While I understand what you're intending to say here, let's put this into perspective here... quite a bit of labral tears on the non-throwing shoulder. What would you equate that do?
http://www.ericcressey.com/bac...osterior-labral-tear
Why exactly would a baseball player not benefit from an increased 1RM? Even if a player sets a new 3RM they are theoretically setting a new 1RM. Athletes will benefit from icreasing maximal strength. With increased strength comes increased force production and potential. Maybe your saying they don't need to actually go for a 1RM, then I agree in most cases.
Also volume can be high without prescribing high reps. Addition of sets can increase volume (ex. 5 x 10 @ 70% could just as well be 10 x 5 @ 70%).
Volume should be waved, there should be times of high volume, medium, and low if you want athletes to adapt positively.
Why exactly would a baseball player not benefit from an increased 1RM? Even if a player sets a new 3RM they are theoretically setting a new 1RM. Athletes will benefit from icreasing maximal strength. With increased strength comes increased force production and potential. Maybe your saying they don't need to actually go for a 1RM, then I agree in most cases.
Also volume can be high without prescribing high reps. Addition of sets can increase volume (ex. 5 x 10 @ 70% could just as well be 10 x 5 @ 70%).
Volume should be waved, there should be times of high volume, medium, and low if you want athletes to adapt positively.
quote:Originally posted by CoachGregRobins:
http://www.ericcressey.com/bac...osterior-labral-tear
Why exactly would a baseball player not benefit from an increased 1RM? Even if a player sets a new 3RM they are theoretically setting a new 1RM. Athletes will benefit from icreasing maximal strength. With increased strength comes increased force production and potential. Maybe your saying they don't need to actually go for a 1RM, then I agree in most cases.
Also volume can be high without prescribing high reps. Addition of sets can increase volume (ex. 5 x 10 @ 70% could just as well be 10 x 5 @ 70%).
Volume should be waved, there should be times of high volume, medium, and low if you want athletes to adapt positively.
I should have clarified in the sense that players don't need to be testing 1RM. I'm advocating 3RM, 5RM, etc. Avoiding max weight on back, avoiding too many failure reps.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:throwing is the main risky labrum movement.
While I understand what you're intending to say here, let's put this into perspective here... quite a bit of labral tears on the non-throwing shoulder. What would you equate that do?
For the most part, we see it in single events quite often. Falls, impacts, and especially dislocations. I can recall quite a few linebackers for sports teams that I follow that have torn their labrums and had fairly open and shut repairs...must be nice when you never need to throw something with that shoulder.
Otherwise, repetitive motion is the issue. There's no particular popular weights movement that cries out for labrum risk, which we both knew was my point in the first place.
The rotator cuff would be the contrast since there is all kinds of stuff we do in the weight room that requires a healthy RC.
I train a lot of different types of athletes, but all of them get on a novice strength training program for the first few months if they're not already "strong."
Baseball, basketball, football, shot put, whatever - all these guys need a basic level of strength before they do anything fancy like single-leg work, plyometric jumping, or whatever. It's actually harmful to have guys doing high-speed plyos and completely useless to have them do unilateral light reps of assistance work without being moderately strong.
That only takes a few months on a program very similar to Starting Strength (modified for the athlete in question, of course). After that, you get into the fancy things - but at no point are my athletes doing anything neat they saw on a YouTube video until they're sufficiently strong.
And that's something that trainers have lost their minds about when it comes to baseball players. It doesn't take that long to build strength in a few compound lifts, and omitting it is a grave mistake.
Baseball, basketball, football, shot put, whatever - all these guys need a basic level of strength before they do anything fancy like single-leg work, plyometric jumping, or whatever. It's actually harmful to have guys doing high-speed plyos and completely useless to have them do unilateral light reps of assistance work without being moderately strong.
That only takes a few months on a program very similar to Starting Strength (modified for the athlete in question, of course). After that, you get into the fancy things - but at no point are my athletes doing anything neat they saw on a YouTube video until they're sufficiently strong.
And that's something that trainers have lost their minds about when it comes to baseball players. It doesn't take that long to build strength in a few compound lifts, and omitting it is a grave mistake.
quote:It's actually harmful to have guys doing high-speed plyos and completely useless to have them do unilateral light reps of assistance work without being moderately strong.
I will agree with the usefulness (or lack thereof) of the plyos, but I disagree with the single-leg stuff. I actually believe that is more important than the weight lifting.
If I can make that athlete stable on one leg and build "small strength" through that stability, then when I move onto the bigger strength component, I will see quicker results. In addition, ideally, I have also corrected biomechanical errors that come up using those lighter weights so that I am not just building strength onto dysfunction.
If I may chime in, my school uses a computer system that is sport and position specific with many variations and room for changing what you do. I lift with the O-linemen but i don't lift like them. I have a specific workout geared towards being a pitcher. The one thing that overlaps in all sports is the core lifts. We do Box squat, Bench, Incline Bench, Power cleans, Parallel squat, and Dead Lift with different amounts of sets and reps each week.
That being said, The two things that have helped the most this year is Dead lift and Squat. By strengthening my hips while keeping flexible as well as working my quads and ham strings, I have shaved time off my 40 yard dash, 60 yard dash, and am throwing harder than ever. We do not do the romanian deadlift, but rather the "hex bar" deadlift. Either way, with a weight belt and good form, Deadlift and back squat has done wonders for me. I would suggest finding a way to get a deadlift that works because it will help baseball whether it's throwing or getting good rotation while swinging.
That being said, The two things that have helped the most this year is Dead lift and Squat. By strengthening my hips while keeping flexible as well as working my quads and ham strings, I have shaved time off my 40 yard dash, 60 yard dash, and am throwing harder than ever. We do not do the romanian deadlift, but rather the "hex bar" deadlift. Either way, with a weight belt and good form, Deadlift and back squat has done wonders for me. I would suggest finding a way to get a deadlift that works because it will help baseball whether it's throwing or getting good rotation while swinging.
I like the tone of discussion in here 
I'd like to bump this to hopefully continue on with this thread...I just reread the posts once more and I really think there is some absolutely outstanding information in here that can be very beneficial to those reading along.