He 'didn't know'...........
We have become the "I didn't know" society. This mindset is prevalent and widespread. No one's guilty because no one knows anything.
Get rid of him.
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3214132
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Yeah, what kind of bull**** is "I don't know." Doubt the conversation went like this-
Anderson: "Here Bondsie take this stuff it will give you the edge you need."
Bonds: "Sure thing dude."
Anderson: "Here Bondsie take this stuff it will give you the edge you need."
Bonds: "Sure thing dude."
What has happened to innocent til proven guilty?
And I ask again--why the same paper and writer with the story regarding supposedly sealed papers from the Grand Jury ?
And I ask again--why the same paper and writer with the story regarding supposedly sealed papers from the Grand Jury ?
Everyone knows Bonds is using this stuff. You don't get as big as he is at his age just by working out. He only hit around 30 dingers at best in his prime.He should not go in the record books the same as Arron and Ruth.
So he thought this "professional trainer" was giving him "flax seed oil and something for his arthritis"? Mr. "I'm so careful about what I put in my body" didn't know what it was?
The worst first year law student in America would have a field day cross-examining good old Barry.
The man has an incredible batting eye, and has put up unbelievable numbers, but you can now believe this:
He has used steroids. Not a rumor. Cold, hard fact.
He deserves every bit of flak that he gets as do Giambi and the others. They publicly lied, on camera and in print, and now the crows will come home to roost. The character of all of these guys is jumping out of our TV screens: they cheated, then they lied, then they lied some more. None will make into the Integrity Hall of Fame. They've had many many chances to tell the truth, and didn't. None of us is sin-free, and the expression "The Truth Will Find Ye" is gospel. Literally.
Give me the Say Hey Kid any day, any time, any where.
And give me Little League, High School, and College ball any day of the week. My NCAA playing son has more drug restrictions on him than do MLB players, with mandatory random testing, by both his school and the NCAA.
The worst first year law student in America would have a field day cross-examining good old Barry.
The man has an incredible batting eye, and has put up unbelievable numbers, but you can now believe this:
He has used steroids. Not a rumor. Cold, hard fact.
He deserves every bit of flak that he gets as do Giambi and the others. They publicly lied, on camera and in print, and now the crows will come home to roost. The character of all of these guys is jumping out of our TV screens: they cheated, then they lied, then they lied some more. None will make into the Integrity Hall of Fame. They've had many many chances to tell the truth, and didn't. None of us is sin-free, and the expression "The Truth Will Find Ye" is gospel. Literally.
Give me the Say Hey Kid any day, any time, any where.
And give me Little League, High School, and College ball any day of the week. My NCAA playing son has more drug restrictions on him than do MLB players, with mandatory random testing, by both his school and the NCAA.
hokie
I am not arguing whether he did or did not--but where are the "cold hard facts" regarding Bonds--right now it is all conjecture until such time as he admits it or is proven top be a liar--same newspaper every time I wonder why that is?
And you still have to see the ball and hit the ball and last time I looked it up steroids did not improve a batters eye sight nor does it improve his ability to hit the ball. It will make him stronger and in many cases prevent muscle tears and injuries. The only injury free year that McGwire had was his huge record year when he was taking LEGAL supplements BUT he also hit 49 homers, more if he was not injured , in his rookie year.
We can surmise all we want but the fact is that Bonds is perhaps the best hitter that ever played the game--steroids didn't make him that if in fact he is a 'roids man
I am not arguing whether he did or did not--but where are the "cold hard facts" regarding Bonds--right now it is all conjecture until such time as he admits it or is proven top be a liar--same newspaper every time I wonder why that is?
And you still have to see the ball and hit the ball and last time I looked it up steroids did not improve a batters eye sight nor does it improve his ability to hit the ball. It will make him stronger and in many cases prevent muscle tears and injuries. The only injury free year that McGwire had was his huge record year when he was taking LEGAL supplements BUT he also hit 49 homers, more if he was not injured , in his rookie year.
We can surmise all we want but the fact is that Bonds is perhaps the best hitter that ever played the game--steroids didn't make him that if in fact he is a 'roids man
I'm with TRHit on this. I'm not going to start to pass judement until and unless a grand jury indicts Bonds. While I'm not a lawyer by any means, I have sat on a grand jury.
The purpose of the grand jury is to evaluate the evidence and decide if there is enough evidence to indict - to evaluate the possibility that the law was broken. They don't decide guilt or innocence - only if there was a possible crime committed.
The jury has three choices: indict, no-bill or pass (pass gives the option for the prosecuting attorney to shelve it or pass it on to another grand jury.)These proceedings are supposed to be sealed, no juror can ever talk about the proceedings. And ANYTHING can be brought up relevent (or not!)to the subject of the grand jury investigation. If Bonds got a speeding ticket in 1980 it can be discussed. Anyone with anything to say about the subject can be brought in as a witness. Witnesses cannot have an attorney present. Everyone gets to ask whatever questions they want.
The vote is (usually)a 2/3rds. majority. So 12 of 16 grand jurors must agree - whatever the outcome.(The number of grand juors varies with the court in which the district is in.)
The whole process actually favors the prosecution. And having sat on one, I find it hard to believe at this point in time that the evidence is strong enough to indict.
Essentially, it takes no more than a hunch on the part of the jurors to indict - to decide if a crime was committed. The prosecuting attorney can steer the jury any way they want, short of telling them how to vote.
Now, back to baseball....
The purpose of the grand jury is to evaluate the evidence and decide if there is enough evidence to indict - to evaluate the possibility that the law was broken. They don't decide guilt or innocence - only if there was a possible crime committed.
The jury has three choices: indict, no-bill or pass (pass gives the option for the prosecuting attorney to shelve it or pass it on to another grand jury.)These proceedings are supposed to be sealed, no juror can ever talk about the proceedings. And ANYTHING can be brought up relevent (or not!)to the subject of the grand jury investigation. If Bonds got a speeding ticket in 1980 it can be discussed. Anyone with anything to say about the subject can be brought in as a witness. Witnesses cannot have an attorney present. Everyone gets to ask whatever questions they want.
The vote is (usually)a 2/3rds. majority. So 12 of 16 grand jurors must agree - whatever the outcome.(The number of grand juors varies with the court in which the district is in.)
The whole process actually favors the prosecution. And having sat on one, I find it hard to believe at this point in time that the evidence is strong enough to indict.
Essentially, it takes no more than a hunch on the part of the jurors to indict - to decide if a crime was committed. The prosecuting attorney can steer the jury any way they want, short of telling them how to vote.
Now, back to baseball....
TR, Maybe it's just the doubter in me but I have a question.
Since names of players that admittingly use steroids are are beginning to come out in numbers, there must be a reason players use steroids. Bonds has not proven guilty by a legal court. However in the publics eye and the major league players eyes the concensus indicates he was guilty of using some type of enhancing drug, legal or illegal, at some time. My question is then if Bonds used a supplement how can he be possibly the best hitter that ever played the game since we will never know exactly how the supplement affected his abililites?
What surprises me are these athletes treat their bodies like shrines, promote fitness and games, yet put little value on their life.
quote:
We can surmise all we want but the fact is that Bonds is perhaps the best hitter that ever played the game--steroids didn't make him that if in fact he is a 'roids man
Since names of players that admittingly use steroids are are beginning to come out in numbers, there must be a reason players use steroids. Bonds has not proven guilty by a legal court. However in the publics eye and the major league players eyes the concensus indicates he was guilty of using some type of enhancing drug, legal or illegal, at some time. My question is then if Bonds used a supplement how can he be possibly the best hitter that ever played the game since we will never know exactly how the supplement affected his abililites?
What surprises me are these athletes treat their bodies like shrines, promote fitness and games, yet put little value on their life.
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
why the same paper and writer with the story regarding supposedly sealed papers from the Grand Jury ?
--same newspaper every time I wonder why that is?
This reeks of east coast bias. Back in the days a certain Watergate informant would only release information to a single newspaper (Wash Post) and to 2 investigative reporters (Woodward & Bernstein). Did you react to those disclosures with the same level of suspicion?
BALCO, the SF Giants, & the Oakland A's (Bonds & Giambi) are local news stories for the San Francisco Chronicle. I suggest to you that the reporter has been assigned to follow this story & to investigate all leads that he may dig up regarding any of the primary characters in this sordid affair.
Would you lend more credence to this grand jury leak if it were reported exclusively by the Hartford Courant or NY Times?
no matter how you look at it Bonds Giambi and the rest of the cheaters have Tarnished the Game. In my opinion worse than that of Pete Rose or even the 1919 Black Sox. Bonds has upset many creditable records that have been accomplished by legimate ballplayers.Bud Selig better take a strong stance on whatever is done but of course hell be as weak as ever and sit on his *** and do nothing as usual
dbg
Forget the bias aspect--I have none-- I only know what I see
I only see info that was supposed to be sealed now being leaked to the same newspaper every time the ugly story rears its head
The Hartford Courant is no prize package either--they got a governor ousted for a $1500 roof job and then went after others and got egg on their face
Forget the bias aspect--I have none-- I only know what I see
I only see info that was supposed to be sealed now being leaked to the same newspaper every time the ugly story rears its head
The Hartford Courant is no prize package either--they got a governor ousted for a $1500 roof job and then went after others and got egg on their face
Trhit,
It sounds like you will be one of the last people to think Bonds did steroids. It’s still a free country and that certainly is your pejorative.
However, when you say, “last time I looked it up steroids did not improve a batters eye sight nor does it improve his ability to hit the ball” you are wrong or trying to parse words.
Why do you think hitters do the stuff? It surely is not to get their face puffy, get acne and risk the chance of dieing a slow death like Lyle Alzado.
You say it doesn’t improve the ability to hit the ball yet statistics prove otherwise. It sure seemed to help Giambi.
Do you agree that increased strength can help your ability to hit the ball? Do you agree that increased strength when related to hitting generally refers to increased bat speed? Do you agree that increased bat speed improves your ability to hit the ball?
The fact is that steroids can help hitters and did help hitters. Get the eraser or asterisks out. Baseball’s dirty little secret is going to be not so secret and although baseball may take a short term hit and cheating players will be exposed, history will show that we did what’s right to preserve the sanctity of the greatest game in the world.
It sounds like you will be one of the last people to think Bonds did steroids. It’s still a free country and that certainly is your pejorative.
However, when you say, “last time I looked it up steroids did not improve a batters eye sight nor does it improve his ability to hit the ball” you are wrong or trying to parse words.
Why do you think hitters do the stuff? It surely is not to get their face puffy, get acne and risk the chance of dieing a slow death like Lyle Alzado.
You say it doesn’t improve the ability to hit the ball yet statistics prove otherwise. It sure seemed to help Giambi.
Do you agree that increased strength can help your ability to hit the ball? Do you agree that increased strength when related to hitting generally refers to increased bat speed? Do you agree that increased bat speed improves your ability to hit the ball?
The fact is that steroids can help hitters and did help hitters. Get the eraser or asterisks out. Baseball’s dirty little secret is going to be not so secret and although baseball may take a short term hit and cheating players will be exposed, history will show that we did what’s right to preserve the sanctity of the greatest game in the world.
What happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? What happened to 'pull the other one, it's got bells on'!
The 'plausible deniability' line doesn't wash with me either. These are athletes; their body is, obviously, their instrument. To suggest that any of them actually believed that they were being given 'nutritional supplements' would mean they not only didn't ask questions, but that they were somehow unaware of the existence of steroids. Wouldn't it follow logically? "This stuff gives you an edge", "improves performance", "builds muscle" --- what?! An honest, clean athlete wouldn't ask specifically if it contained steroids?
rz has it right: we'll never know what kind of hitter Bonds, for example, would have been. Would he have lasted this long? Would he have had warning track power only?
But he does put bums in seats, and that, really, is the point. And we know he needs the money -- remember when he took his ex back to court to reduce her alimony during the strike because of 'hardship'. Gotta love the guy.
Of course most of us here would like to see a hard line and some radical consequences for drug use in MLB. We have sons with dreams, sons we don't want to see playing roulette with their bodies OR having to compete with 'enhanced' players.
The 'plausible deniability' line doesn't wash with me either. These are athletes; their body is, obviously, their instrument. To suggest that any of them actually believed that they were being given 'nutritional supplements' would mean they not only didn't ask questions, but that they were somehow unaware of the existence of steroids. Wouldn't it follow logically? "This stuff gives you an edge", "improves performance", "builds muscle" --- what?! An honest, clean athlete wouldn't ask specifically if it contained steroids?
rz has it right: we'll never know what kind of hitter Bonds, for example, would have been. Would he have lasted this long? Would he have had warning track power only?
But he does put bums in seats, and that, really, is the point. And we know he needs the money -- remember when he took his ex back to court to reduce her alimony during the strike because of 'hardship'. Gotta love the guy.
Of course most of us here would like to see a hard line and some radical consequences for drug use in MLB. We have sons with dreams, sons we don't want to see playing roulette with their bodies OR having to compete with 'enhanced' players.
This is not my opinion but that of a sports reporter from the NY Times regarding the use of steroids in sports.
FANS in general DON'T CARE. Especially in the game of baseball. They don't care how one gets it over the fence, they want more excitement in the game.
Until the public shows their disgust over what has happened, there will be no changes. You can bet your bottom dollar once fans stop showing up, something will be done about it asap!
FANS in general DON'T CARE. Especially in the game of baseball. They don't care how one gets it over the fence, they want more excitement in the game.
Until the public shows their disgust over what has happened, there will be no changes. You can bet your bottom dollar once fans stop showing up, something will be done about it asap!
SBK
If you re-read my posts I siad I am not arguing yes or now for any of the players so do put words in my mouth
Now your other points:
01-- they do it to get stronger--that does not necessarily make the bat quicker
02-- in my mind he was never a complete or great player
03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY
04--IMO increased bat speed does not necessarily help your ability to hit the ball-- your natural physical ability does that-- I firmly belive that hitters are born not made or created
As you say we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs--I just don't believe you condemn a man with no FACTS AND PROOF-- yes there are clouds but behind them is sunshine
If you re-read my posts I siad I am not arguing yes or now for any of the players so do put words in my mouth
Now your other points:
01-- they do it to get stronger--that does not necessarily make the bat quicker
02-- in my mind he was never a complete or great player
03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY
04--IMO increased bat speed does not necessarily help your ability to hit the ball-- your natural physical ability does that-- I firmly belive that hitters are born not made or created
As you say we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs--I just don't believe you condemn a man with no FACTS AND PROOF-- yes there are clouds but behind them is sunshine
quote:
03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY
04--IMO increased bat speed does not necessarily help your ability to hit the ball-- your natural physical ability does that-- I firmly belive that hitters are born not made or created
TR you are absolutely right about this stuff, it will not help him hit the ball..... he already had that ability, that's why he is in the big leagues to begin with. He demonstrated the ability to hit the ball in high school, college, in the minors, and even in the show when called up.
We all know that it doesn't magically help you hit the ball, if that were the case, give me Conte's number I'll call him today, and be signed as a 31 year old DH by Feb.
I heard Rob Dibble make that excuse, and it took me all night to get up off the floor from laughing so hard, you see although I like to hear Rob on the Dan Patrick Show, it showed just how misinformed he was.
Even the sun shines on a dogs butt, once in a while.
TR,
First, I plead guilty to possessing a law degree. (There goes what little remains of my reputation....)
Assuming Bonds did testify to the Grand Jury that he used the two substances, that's proof enough for me that he did so and a grand jury indictment isn't necessary to establish that. As for the issue of leaks, I agree that confidential testimony should stay that way and sincerely hope that the party leaking information gets legally fried, BUT, if Bonds did testify that he used the two items, then he has been lying to the public for a long, long time. The fact that his lie was exposed through someone else's criminal act does not change the fact that he has lied and lied again.
I agree he is one heck of a hitter and have been amazed at how well he hits, especially considering how carefully most pitchers try to be with him, but whether we like it or not, the steroids have laid upon him a permanent stain. He will never enjoy the universal respect or admiration enjoyed by so many of the greats-Mays, McCovey, Koufax, Walter Johnson, etc., and that's a legacy that he has created. It is indeed sad, but people make bad decisions all the time, and sometimes they come back in spades. A decision by Bonds, for reasons only he knows, to try chemical enhancements to his already considerable skills, can't be ignored or down-played. He no doubt aspires to be considered the greatest baseball player of all time. It won't happen, not now, not ever. Ruth, Cobb, and all those guys were far from saints, real far in fact, but I'm not aware of any allegation that they tried to cheat the game.
Had steroids been around in that era, who knows what might've happened.
First, I plead guilty to possessing a law degree. (There goes what little remains of my reputation....)
Assuming Bonds did testify to the Grand Jury that he used the two substances, that's proof enough for me that he did so and a grand jury indictment isn't necessary to establish that. As for the issue of leaks, I agree that confidential testimony should stay that way and sincerely hope that the party leaking information gets legally fried, BUT, if Bonds did testify that he used the two items, then he has been lying to the public for a long, long time. The fact that his lie was exposed through someone else's criminal act does not change the fact that he has lied and lied again.
I agree he is one heck of a hitter and have been amazed at how well he hits, especially considering how carefully most pitchers try to be with him, but whether we like it or not, the steroids have laid upon him a permanent stain. He will never enjoy the universal respect or admiration enjoyed by so many of the greats-Mays, McCovey, Koufax, Walter Johnson, etc., and that's a legacy that he has created. It is indeed sad, but people make bad decisions all the time, and sometimes they come back in spades. A decision by Bonds, for reasons only he knows, to try chemical enhancements to his already considerable skills, can't be ignored or down-played. He no doubt aspires to be considered the greatest baseball player of all time. It won't happen, not now, not ever. Ruth, Cobb, and all those guys were far from saints, real far in fact, but I'm not aware of any allegation that they tried to cheat the game.
Had steroids been around in that era, who knows what might've happened.
quote:
Until the public shows their disgust over what has happened, there will be no changes. You can bet your bottom dollar once fans stop showing up, something will be done about it asap!
So, it's all about the dollar. If they're looking to make MLB more exciting...there's more that could be done. Move the fences in...move the mound back...make a strike out be four strikes...etc. Where are we going? Professional wrestling is fake and the public goes to watch it. So what?
I am disgusted!
TR,
Your philosophy regarding strength and hitting is counter to conventional wisdom. Most players and coaches seem to think that lifting weights can make them stronger. Most hitters believe increased strength can mean a quicker bat.
A lot of us even believe a quicker bat can improve one’s ability to hit a ball.
Science shows that lifting weights can make you stronger. Science also tells us that taking certain steroids can also make you stronger.
If you are right when you emphatically write, “03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY” then not only are few hitters uselessly using steroids, but millions of players are wasting their time and causing themselves pain by lifting weights, all for trying to become stronger so they can improve their ability to hit the ball.
Another attempt at a seemingly simple question, would you expect a hitter should be able to improve his ability to hit the ball if he increased his strength?
Your philosophy regarding strength and hitting is counter to conventional wisdom. Most players and coaches seem to think that lifting weights can make them stronger. Most hitters believe increased strength can mean a quicker bat.
A lot of us even believe a quicker bat can improve one’s ability to hit a ball.
Science shows that lifting weights can make you stronger. Science also tells us that taking certain steroids can also make you stronger.
If you are right when you emphatically write, “03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY” then not only are few hitters uselessly using steroids, but millions of players are wasting their time and causing themselves pain by lifting weights, all for trying to become stronger so they can improve their ability to hit the ball.
Another attempt at a seemingly simple question, would you expect a hitter should be able to improve his ability to hit the ball if he increased his strength?
Do roids help you hit the ball? NO
Do Roids help you hit the ball farther? YES
Comparison:
You got a car with 100 horsepower engine
The car runs and drives fine.
Now you take that same car and replace the motor with a 400 horsepower engine.
The car still runs and drives fine, but now much faster.
Just my opinion
CV
Do Roids help you hit the ball farther? YES
Comparison:
You got a car with 100 horsepower engine
The car runs and drives fine.
Now you take that same car and replace the motor with a 400 horsepower engine.
The car still runs and drives fine, but now much faster.
Just my opinion
CV
And when a car, let’s name it Bonds for the lack of a better name, goes 125 mph and the other cars go 100 mph, I’d say the Bonds car is a great race car.
Now if the great Bonds car puts in some illegal fuel and now it goes 400 mph, I would call it a formerly great race car that is now cheating.
Yes, I would say that illegal fuel can improve the ability of the car to drive.
Now if the great Bonds car puts in some illegal fuel and now it goes 400 mph, I would call it a formerly great race car that is now cheating.
Yes, I would say that illegal fuel can improve the ability of the car to drive.
....or the difference between a game-winning homer and a fly ball out at the fence.
Or stats? MLB started their random testing at the major level and 'outlawed' steroids: how many players hit 50+ home runs this year?
Or stats? MLB started their random testing at the major level and 'outlawed' steroids: how many players hit 50+ home runs this year?
Thinking about Bonds taking Steriods in order to get stronger reminded me of an interview I saw by John Kruk speaking about another player using a "corked bat"
Bonds could already hit ... period ... he was already strong ... period ...
"Better baseball through the wonders of Chemistry" isn't better baseball. IMHO, any record he has (or will) achieve, should go in the record book but be marked with an "*" with a footnote "...assisted".
quote:
"He could already hit a baseball 800 feet, I guess he wanted to hit it a thousand feet..."
Bonds could already hit ... period ... he was already strong ... period ...
"Better baseball through the wonders of Chemistry" isn't better baseball. IMHO, any record he has (or will) achieve, should go in the record book but be marked with an "*" with a footnote "...assisted".
quote:
... last time I looked it up steroids did not improve a batters eye sight nor does it improve his ability to hit the ball.
You looked this up? Excellent...where did you find it?
That's what I thought...
Innocent until proven guilty? First of all they will never be found guilty, because they were given immunity from prosecution prior to their grand jury testimony by the grand jury, as long as they told the truth and nothing but the truth! The ONLY thing they could be ever charged with was perjury, if they lied or withheld information during Grand Jury testimony. By their (giambi and bonds) testimony, they will be found guilty by baseball fans everywhere. Bonds will be an absolute first ballot hall of famer, but I ask should he be in the hall if you keep someone like "Shoeless Joe" out. Is steroid use, the same as a corked bat? I just think cheaters should not be praised for their efforts, they spent years deceiving the paying public, lied to reporters, and now that it comes out, they fall back on the "I didn't know"? Come on! Ignorance of the law is no excuse, I sincerely believe they knew exactly what they were doing, and will be judged that way. Just my opinion.
This is your body....
This is your body on steroids...
Any questions?
This is your body on steroids...
Any questions?
TR,
Bonds used steroids. He has admitted it. His records are tainted. The only question now is if he did so knowingly or unknowingly. The evidence cited in the article implies that it was knowingly. That isn't absolute proof. You're welcome to believe unknowingly if you wish but I find it hard to believe that Giambi is that much more in tune with the real world than Bonds.
By the way, let's assume that Barry is the same hitter except for power with or without steroids. Then let's take away 40% of his home runs each year and make them fly outs. At the same time take away a few sharply hit grounders and liners that a fielder couldn't quite reach. The batting average drops a lot and so do the intentional walks so the OBP drops a lot also. Still a good hitter, but by no means the dominant player in the game.
Bonds used steroids. He has admitted it. His records are tainted. The only question now is if he did so knowingly or unknowingly. The evidence cited in the article implies that it was knowingly. That isn't absolute proof. You're welcome to believe unknowingly if you wish but I find it hard to believe that Giambi is that much more in tune with the real world than Bonds.
By the way, let's assume that Barry is the same hitter except for power with or without steroids. Then let's take away 40% of his home runs each year and make them fly outs. At the same time take away a few sharply hit grounders and liners that a fielder couldn't quite reach. The batting average drops a lot and so do the intentional walks so the OBP drops a lot also. Still a good hitter, but by no means the dominant player in the game.
There's no doubt that steroids will make you stronger( so long as you train effectively).
There's no doubt that steroids will NOT give you the ability to hit a baseball. That's a skill derived from the confluence of genetics and practice.
However the least mentioned effect of steroid use is the androgenic or "maleness" enhanceing aspect of it's use.
Anabolic qualities build muscle, androgenic qualities increase amoung other things agressiveness.
I think the inclination to crowd the plate, take away the outside pitch and hang in there when Randy Johnson throws his hard slider can only be enhanced by steroid use. And how would you disentangle the ability to hit a ball from the willingness to do so?
Steriods are more complcated than just muscle mass developers.
Rollerman
If he did not know he was using steroids it must have been a difficult psychological time for him wondering why his body was changing so differently from the normal aging process.Maybe he was pelted by Gamma like Bruce Banner.
Wouldn't the unauthorized use of a known dangerous substance by his trainer constitute assault or reckless endangerment? Wouldn't these charges being leveled bring out the truth quickly and in open court and not violate any immunity since Bonds would not be charged.
Wouldn't the unauthorized use of a known dangerous substance by his trainer constitute assault or reckless endangerment? Wouldn't these charges being leveled bring out the truth quickly and in open court and not violate any immunity since Bonds would not be charged.
I heard yesterday that one of the drugs Giambi was taking and I'm sure Bond's was too was one to enhanse eye sight. See the ball better.
So not only were they getting bigger (mass) and stronger. And by the way being stronger as a hitter also allows you to have better control over making changes in your swing and the fact that there was this drug which helped there ability to see the ball better, well then you have on potent hitter there!
So not only were they getting bigger (mass) and stronger. And by the way being stronger as a hitter also allows you to have better control over making changes in your swing and the fact that there was this drug which helped there ability to see the ball better, well then you have on potent hitter there!
I was at a spring training game a few years back and I saw Jose Conseco hit one of the hardest balls I've ever seen hit. It was a one-hopper to second base and it hit the second baseman square in the face. The guy was taken off the field with a bloody towel covering his face. OF COURSE the additional strength provided by the use of steriods allows players to hit the ball harder which OBVIOUSLY will translate into more hits.
The use of steriods in baseball has far reaching effects and goes well beyond homerun numbers. I don't know what became of the second baseman who took that hit but I guaranty there are players whose careers have been hurt by this. If steriod use is as rampant in the big leagues as some people have said then certainly there are pitchers who have had their careers negatively effected and minor leaguers held back while major league hitters have had their careers arificially extended.
Not to mention the game results that can now be questioned.
The major league game will essentially become a joke, IMO, unless drug testing is instituted.
The use of steriods in baseball has far reaching effects and goes well beyond homerun numbers. I don't know what became of the second baseman who took that hit but I guaranty there are players whose careers have been hurt by this. If steriod use is as rampant in the big leagues as some people have said then certainly there are pitchers who have had their careers negatively effected and minor leaguers held back while major league hitters have had their careers arificially extended.
Not to mention the game results that can now be questioned.
The major league game will essentially become a joke, IMO, unless drug testing is instituted.
Rollerman,
I think you make some astute observations regarding the increased aggressiveness found in steroid users and its potential effects on Bonds approach at the plate. I've never seen those items discussed anywhere.
I think you make some astute observations regarding the increased aggressiveness found in steroid users and its potential effects on Bonds approach at the plate. I've never seen those items discussed anywhere.
I never would have believed that supposedly knowledgeable baseball people are convinced that becoming stronger doesn’t have anything to do with a person becoming a better hitter.
Would the same people agree that if a person became weaker, they probably would become a poorer hitter, kind of like Giambi?
Now if these same people that became weaker, like a Giambi all of a sudden became stronger, would that mean they probably wouldn’t become better hitters?
I’m waiting for a topic that reads, “Strength don’t matter”.
Would the same people agree that if a person became weaker, they probably would become a poorer hitter, kind of like Giambi?
Now if these same people that became weaker, like a Giambi all of a sudden became stronger, would that mean they probably wouldn’t become better hitters?
I’m waiting for a topic that reads, “Strength don’t matter”.
Just think if the caveman had the roids, today the pitching mound may be at 90', 600 ft to the alleys, and 5 sec 60's. Then again a smarter life form may be interpreting the history of man from drawings on the cave walls because all the humans had died from unknown growths, and irrational brain activity. Sometimes the more advanced we get the futher down the food chain we fall.
PhoenixDad...I THINK YOU MEANT...@SSISTED...??? Didn't you??
You are a very very naive person if you do not almost 100% know that he has taken steroids! As far as steroids helping you hit the ball, this is what i'll say... If you take a person with no baseball talent and put them on steroids, no they will not be able to hit the ball any better. But if you take somebody with major league talent like Bonds then its takes him obviously from 40hr/season all the way to 70hr/season. How can you say steroids didnt help him hit ? They turned fly outs into home runs. ALL his records are tainted.
Choose about any player at any level and becoming stronger will allow them to be a better hitter than what they were when they were less strong.
Most people who want to become a better hitter by being stronger choose to do it the old fashioned way, lift weights. A few choose to take a short cut by doing steroids.
I hope I don’t insult everybody’s intelligence by repeating what I would assume everyone here already knows and people such as Bob alluded to, “Taking steroids won’t take a bad hitter and make them a great hitter, but a bad hitter can become a better hitter by becoming stronger.”
I don’t know why that is so hard to grasp? The example a couple people brought up of a routine fly ball that with a little more strength turns into a homerun is a good one.
Bottom line is that accomplishments in any sport that were done by a steroid user are tainted.
The majority of the blame should go to the player’s union.
Most people who want to become a better hitter by being stronger choose to do it the old fashioned way, lift weights. A few choose to take a short cut by doing steroids.
I hope I don’t insult everybody’s intelligence by repeating what I would assume everyone here already knows and people such as Bob alluded to, “Taking steroids won’t take a bad hitter and make them a great hitter, but a bad hitter can become a better hitter by becoming stronger.”
I don’t know why that is so hard to grasp? The example a couple people brought up of a routine fly ball that with a little more strength turns into a homerun is a good one.
Bottom line is that accomplishments in any sport that were done by a steroid user are tainted.
The majority of the blame should go to the player’s union.
And as Bighit use to say to his GF...........
Suprise! Surprise! Surprise!
Suprise! Surprise! Surprise!
If Selig lets all of Bonds' "records" stand... I will be one angry !^%@!^&
Too bad Joe D. isn't still around. I bet he'd have some choice words for his fellow townie. He'd probably even shatter a coffee pot or two.
The whole planet except a few clueless ones knew Bonds was on something Creatine or Steriods.
A little pointer is Bonds was in the Olympics he would have been suspended and his records deleted.
Barry Bonds Career Stats
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml
MLB player association fought drug testing tooth and nail. Rememeber how many times Steve Howe tested positive for cocaine and was suspended and re instated by the MLB player association.
Just wonder how many home runs Babe Ruth, Hank Aarron,or Willie Mays would have hit on steriods
A little pointer is Bonds was in the Olympics he would have been suspended and his records deleted.
Barry Bonds Career Stats
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml
MLB player association fought drug testing tooth and nail. Rememeber how many times Steve Howe tested positive for cocaine and was suspended and re instated by the MLB player association.
Just wonder how many home runs Babe Ruth, Hank Aarron,or Willie Mays would have hit on steriods
Here's a guy who was given no access to an MLB contract and had limited rights as an American citizen and still went on to be a HOF legend. And then you have Bonds who has everything and more and is blowing it.
It's twists of fate like this that get me even more steamed thinking about the Giambis and Bonds and the rest; the have-it-alls of our era. How many kids playing ball these days would even know the name Josh Gibson?
It's twists of fate like this that get me even more steamed thinking about the Giambis and Bonds and the rest; the have-it-alls of our era. How many kids playing ball these days would even know the name Josh Gibson?
SBK, don't get me started. LOL. I agree that the majority of the blame goes to the players union. They don't care about anything other than larger contracts for their members. But the owners! Have allowed all this to go on through, negotiation. Come on people, the owners have given away the game to the players, and now their union is the most powerful in the nation. Next time there are negotiations, when the contract is up, don't make concessions, let them walk out, and call up all the prospects and lets play ball with players that are still hungry, and put on a great show. The players today, as a general rule (not all of them)have no respect for the game, could care less about the fans, and give nothing back to the game. I don't want to generalize, not all of them are this way, but alot are. I hope Bonds feels the pain of what he has done to the game, I certainly don't think he is a stand up guy, who will appologize, and stop using. Not a chance of that. He could care less what people think of him, he doesn't like reporters, fans, or even his teammates. Lets see him hit 73 homers when he's not on the juice...er creme. sorry, just my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by hokieone:
First, I plead guilty to possessing a law degree. (There goes what little remains of my reputation....)
Dang, and I use to respect you
Barry Bonds is the best hitter in the history of the game.
I've followed his career since his days at Arizona State. I remember his dad, Bobby, from his days with the Giants, too.
I don't care what he did or didn't do off of the field.
Try hitting a major league baseball/fastball or slider and tell me that is something that is easy to do. Not over the fence...just hit the darn thing successfully!!!!!
200 walks a season convinces me that he's the BEST OF ALL TIME...WHAT DOES HE HAVE? 7 MVP awards.
You go, BARRY.
It's a racial thing amongst many of his naysayers, too! Where is Jetstream Jessie when you need him?
----
And now the Cubbies fans want to run Sammycork out of Chicago...before the info comes out about Sammy and his forearms, etc....and the Cubbies get the bad publicity.
I've followed his career since his days at Arizona State. I remember his dad, Bobby, from his days with the Giants, too.
I don't care what he did or didn't do off of the field.
Try hitting a major league baseball/fastball or slider and tell me that is something that is easy to do. Not over the fence...just hit the darn thing successfully!!!!!
200 walks a season convinces me that he's the BEST OF ALL TIME...WHAT DOES HE HAVE? 7 MVP awards.
You go, BARRY.
It's a racial thing amongst many of his naysayers, too! Where is Jetstream Jessie when you need him?
----
And now the Cubbies fans want to run Sammycork out of Chicago...before the info comes out about Sammy and his forearms, etc....and the Cubbies get the bad publicity.
Like it or not, if you cheat and get caught you have to pay the price. But really, in the end you only cheat yourself.
He will now always be remembered as the best hitter that cheated and got caught. The sad part is, it did not have to be that way.
CV
He will now always be remembered as the best hitter that cheated and got caught. The sad part is, it did not have to be that way.
CV
quote:
Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Barry Bonds is the best hitter in the history of the game.
I've followed his career since his days at Arizona State. I remember his dad, Bobby, from his days with the Giants, too.
I don't care what he did or didn't do off of the field.
Try hitting a major league baseball/fastball or slider and tell me that is something that is easy to do. Not over the fence...just hit the darn thing successfully!!!!!
200 walks a season convinces me that he's the BEST OF ALL TIME...WHAT DOES HE HAVE? 7 MVP awards.
You go, BARRY.
It's a racial thing amongst many of his naysayers, too! Where is Jetstream Jessie when you need him?
----
And now the Cubbies fans want to run Sammycork out of Chicago...before the info comes out about Sammy and his forearms, etc....and the Cubbies get the bad publicity.
Playing the race card? I'm getting kinda sick of the race card. Giambi is in just as deep as Bonds.
The four guys who have taken steroids that we know of each won the MVP award. Canseco has had serious prblems with his health and the law, Caminiti is dead, Giambi has had health problems (parasites and a tumor).......Bonds is the only one who has not gotten sick yet. Three out of four is not the type of odds that I would bet against.
I wonder how many home runs a fine hitter like John Olerud would have hit if he took steroids? I guess he was satisfied making $60 million and did not need $100 million to feed his family. He is the type of guy that I hope kids emulate, not the other idiots.
I wonder how many home runs a fine hitter like John Olerud would have hit if he took steroids? I guess he was satisfied making $60 million and did not need $100 million to feed his family. He is the type of guy that I hope kids emulate, not the other idiots.
'It's a racial thing' That is such a load of ****! HE TESTIFIED THAT HE USED! His records should not stand. As far as the Hall of fame--if he gets in then they better let Rose in while they are at it! At least he didn't cheat on the field.
Maybe they can vote Bonds & Rose in at the same time. Kind of a "Free Get Out Of Jail" vote day. 
Johnnie..."HE TESTIFIED THAT HE USED!"
Doesn't mean anything unless he testified that he used something knowing it was either banned or illegal or whatever.
I WOULD BE MORE CONCERNED THAN ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT GRAND JURY TESTIMONY BEING LEAKED TO THE PRESS.
IF I WERE THE JUDGE IN THE CASE, I WOULD SUPPRESS EVERYTHING THAT THEY TRIED TO INTRODUCE AND INTRODUCED AT THE GRAND JURY HEARINGS.
THE LOCAL PROSECUTOR, IF HE HAD ANY B...S, WOULD ASK THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE TO ORDER AN INVESTIGATION AND THEN PROSECUTE THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LEAK.
Who really cares about some mopes use/non-use of steriods when such gross violation of fundamental due process is involved?
Doesn't mean anything unless he testified that he used something knowing it was either banned or illegal or whatever.
I WOULD BE MORE CONCERNED THAN ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT GRAND JURY TESTIMONY BEING LEAKED TO THE PRESS.
IF I WERE THE JUDGE IN THE CASE, I WOULD SUPPRESS EVERYTHING THAT THEY TRIED TO INTRODUCE AND INTRODUCED AT THE GRAND JURY HEARINGS.
THE LOCAL PROSECUTOR, IF HE HAD ANY B...S, WOULD ASK THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE TO ORDER AN INVESTIGATION AND THEN PROSECUTE THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LEAK.
Who really cares about some mopes use/non-use of steriods when such gross violation of fundamental due process is involved?
BT - because we're talking about baseball and not due process. The leaks are egregious - but in this conversation we're disgusted by Bonds.
Some might be amused by this artistic interpretation of the Bonds steroid scandal. Dirt Dogs Bonds sketch
Some might be amused by this artistic interpretation of the Bonds steroid scandal. Dirt Dogs Bonds sketch
Another quote from the Dirtdogs site:
More than 50% of the players are using steroids, and 80% of them are using stimulants before games....
A couple years ago, I was wondering out loud here, WHY all the MLB teams lose so many players to nagging injuries that keep them out of the lineup off and on throughout the season. Afterall, we are supposed to have all this great wisdom on strength and conditioning. Why does it happen so frequently???
Maybe these suggested numbers are correct and
can explain why a very large number of players cannot remain healthy?
More than 50% of the players are using steroids, and 80% of them are using stimulants before games....
A couple years ago, I was wondering out loud here, WHY all the MLB teams lose so many players to nagging injuries that keep them out of the lineup off and on throughout the season. Afterall, we are supposed to have all this great wisdom on strength and conditioning. Why does it happen so frequently???
Maybe these suggested numbers are correct and
can explain why a very large number of players cannot remain healthy?
You guys should read what Savannah has to say in the "I used steroids in the '80's thread".
As I see it :
01--there are no true facts--it is all from the SF Chronicle and info that was not supposed to be released, if in fact the infor is correct and valid.
02-- heard a lawyer last night say there is nothing here yet--the grand jury is not a trial --they are seeing if there is enough evidence for a crime
03-- Marion Jones has been tested over and over and never a trace has been found--what does that say for Conte
04-- Is Conte a reliable source ?--you want your son convicted on what this man says?
05-- has anyone ever seen the players inject, digest or rub on an illegal substance.
06--to further indicate the way people think one poster above puts steroids and creatine together as illegal substances-- creatine is not illegal--you may not like it but it is sold over the counter
I am not arguing yes or no for Bonds or any of the others--I am just saying there is no HARD PROOF--let them be innocent until proven guilty
Been There hits the nail on the head---
Hey a lot of the world thought and still does that OF was guility of the accused crime-- but they could not prove it-- the goes here--until proven gulity he is,in my eyes, INNOCENT
People tell me to get a GRIP !!!!!! One poster even tells me that Bonds used steroids and I should,understand it-- maybe he did--maybe he didn't--I have no proof either way so how can I say if he did or didn't-- I think you all read the same things I do so how can you say he did or didn't?
Isn't that what our country is all about ???
Innocent until proven guilty !!!!
01--there are no true facts--it is all from the SF Chronicle and info that was not supposed to be released, if in fact the infor is correct and valid.
02-- heard a lawyer last night say there is nothing here yet--the grand jury is not a trial --they are seeing if there is enough evidence for a crime
03-- Marion Jones has been tested over and over and never a trace has been found--what does that say for Conte
04-- Is Conte a reliable source ?--you want your son convicted on what this man says?
05-- has anyone ever seen the players inject, digest or rub on an illegal substance.
06--to further indicate the way people think one poster above puts steroids and creatine together as illegal substances-- creatine is not illegal--you may not like it but it is sold over the counter
I am not arguing yes or no for Bonds or any of the others--I am just saying there is no HARD PROOF--let them be innocent until proven guilty
Been There hits the nail on the head---
Hey a lot of the world thought and still does that OF was guility of the accused crime-- but they could not prove it-- the goes here--until proven gulity he is,in my eyes, INNOCENT
People tell me to get a GRIP !!!!!! One poster even tells me that Bonds used steroids and I should,understand it-- maybe he did--maybe he didn't--I have no proof either way so how can I say if he did or didn't-- I think you all read the same things I do so how can you say he did or didn't?
Isn't that what our country is all about ???
Innocent until proven guilty !!!!
I have read Savannah's post. I remain unconvinced & unimpressed. Those same steroids used by a young man in Plano created chemical changes in his brain and body that eventually led him to commit suicide.
Steroid are dangerous. Steroids are wrong. Athletes that use steroids are cheating the game the play, the game's fans, their teammates, and their opponents.
Steroid are dangerous. Steroids are wrong. Athletes that use steroids are cheating the game the play, the game's fans, their teammates, and their opponents.
I will wait until the smoke clears before forming an opinion. However here are some interesting stats to ponder, involving two great players.
Comparing Bonds and his Godfather Willie Mays
5 year total starting at age 35 through 39
Barry Bonds 258 Home Runs
Willie Mays 123 Home Runs
Barry Bonds .341 Batting Ave.
Willie Mays .288 Batting Ave.
Note: Bonds won 4 MVP awards during this span.
Career Stats before age 35
Barry Bonds 445 Home Runs
Willie Mays 516 Home Runs
Barry Bonds .280 Batting Ave.
Willie Mays .312 Batting Ave.
Note: Mays home parks were among the very toughest to hit HRs. (polo Grounds, Candlestick)
Career Totals
Barry Bonds 703 Home Runs
Willie Mays 660 Home Runs
Barry Bonds .300 Batting Ave.
Willie Mays .302 Batting Ave.
Note: Mays missed over a year and a half serving in the arm forces.
Comparing Bonds and his Godfather Willie Mays
5 year total starting at age 35 through 39
Barry Bonds 258 Home Runs
Willie Mays 123 Home Runs
Barry Bonds .341 Batting Ave.
Willie Mays .288 Batting Ave.
Note: Bonds won 4 MVP awards during this span.
Career Stats before age 35
Barry Bonds 445 Home Runs
Willie Mays 516 Home Runs
Barry Bonds .280 Batting Ave.
Willie Mays .312 Batting Ave.
Note: Mays home parks were among the very toughest to hit HRs. (polo Grounds, Candlestick)
Career Totals
Barry Bonds 703 Home Runs
Willie Mays 660 Home Runs
Barry Bonds .300 Batting Ave.
Willie Mays .302 Batting Ave.
Note: Mays missed over a year and a half serving in the arm forces.
TR - may I conjecture that you are among the people in this country that is parsing through the meaning of the word 'is'?
Leaked testimony from the grand jury hearing is what it is. Questions & answers delivered under an oath sworn to tell the truth. I, and most educated listeners , can disapprove of the grand jury leak while still accept that the report is most likely to be accurate.
It says that Conte is very good at his job. None of the accused baseball players were caught either. They have admitted under oath to having used the same substances that Conte says Jones was using.
In sworn testimony Bonds admitted using this stuff openly in the clubhouse in front of his teammates
If you are maintaining a position that none of these reports are true because the source of the information is from an insider leak of the grand jury processings, then you are being ridiculously naive.
quote:
01--there are no true facts--it is all from the SF Chronicle and info that was not supposed to be released, if in fact the infor is correct and valid.
Leaked testimony from the grand jury hearing is what it is. Questions & answers delivered under an oath sworn to tell the truth. I, and most educated listeners , can disapprove of the grand jury leak while still accept that the report is most likely to be accurate.
quote:
03-- Marion Jones has been tested over and over and never a trace has been found--what does that say for Conte
It says that Conte is very good at his job. None of the accused baseball players were caught either. They have admitted under oath to having used the same substances that Conte says Jones was using.
quote:
05-- has anyone ever seen the players inject, digest or rub on an illegal substance.
In sworn testimony Bonds admitted using this stuff openly in the clubhouse in front of his teammates
If you are maintaining a position that none of these reports are true because the source of the information is from an insider leak of the grand jury processings, then you are being ridiculously naive.
"I didn't know they were steroids"
Bonds hr totals have been
16
25
24
19
33
25
34
46
37
33
42
40
37
34
49
73
I'll stop there.... Pass the juice please.
Bonds hr totals have been
16
25
24
19
33
25
34
46
37
33
42
40
37
34
49
73
I'll stop there.... Pass the juice please.
dbg
Drop the naive BS and the parse BS --it won't work on me--
Go back and read what I said-- I am not saying he did or he didn't--All I say is do not convict a man before you can prove without a doubt that he did use them
In todays reports it comes out that the so called creme and salve were used before they were made illegal by MLB---no how do you punish Bonds if in fact he knew-- the materials were legal in MLB at the time, or so the Chronicle report says.
And I ask again--would you want your son being "convicted and hung" like this on the basis of what a newspaper says.
And trust me it cna happen to your son in college
How come no other paper has any of this info ?
It is still all conjecture fostered by a headline grabbing newspaper known for for this sort of journalism !!
Drop the naive BS and the parse BS --it won't work on me--
Go back and read what I said-- I am not saying he did or he didn't--All I say is do not convict a man before you can prove without a doubt that he did use them
In todays reports it comes out that the so called creme and salve were used before they were made illegal by MLB---no how do you punish Bonds if in fact he knew-- the materials were legal in MLB at the time, or so the Chronicle report says.
And I ask again--would you want your son being "convicted and hung" like this on the basis of what a newspaper says.
And trust me it cna happen to your son in college
How come no other paper has any of this info ?
It is still all conjecture fostered by a headline grabbing newspaper known for for this sort of journalism !!
Beenthere, you disappoint me . You don't care if Bonds is doing illegal supplements, because he's "the best"?
Put the shoe on the other foot. You have a son playing college ball at this time, and another one that played at Miss. State. If they were All-Americans, and #1 draft choices, would it still be hunky dorey with you if they were juicing up in order to help accomplish those honors?
If they were one of the best players in the history of MLB, would you smile and brush off the fact that they use illegal substances to maintain themselves?
And as for the race card... forget it. It has no place here, and you should apologize for using it in the first place.
Put the shoe on the other foot. You have a son playing college ball at this time, and another one that played at Miss. State. If they were All-Americans, and #1 draft choices, would it still be hunky dorey with you if they were juicing up in order to help accomplish those honors?
If they were one of the best players in the history of MLB, would you smile and brush off the fact that they use illegal substances to maintain themselves?
And as for the race card... forget it. It has no place here, and you should apologize for using it in the first place.
"Beenthere, you disappoint me . You don't care if Bonds is doing illegal supplements, because he's "the best"?
Put the shoe on the other foot. You have a son playing college ball at this time, and another one that played at Miss. State. If they were All-Americans, and #1 draft choices, would it still be hunky dorey with you if they were juicing up in order to help accomplish those honors?
If they were one of the best players in the history of MLB, would you smile and brush off the fact that they use illegal substances to maintain themselves?
And as for the race card... forget it. It has no place here, and you should apologize for using it in the first place."
--
What Barry does with his body is his own business. So far, all we have is a "leak" from Grand Jury testimony. Too, the mope that owned that company has testified repeatedly that he doesn't know whether or not Barry knew that the stuff was legal or illegal. Barry has testified that he didn't know that the stuff was illegal. The guy that sold it to him was a childhood friend. Who knows the real story. Only Barry does.
Apparently, this steroid stuff has only been illegal since 1989. Baseball had no prohibition against it since ????, if ever.
If OJ wasn't guilty with the evidence against him, who would convict Barry of anything? No one. Moreover, HE HASN'T BEEN CHARGED WITH ANYTHING AND YOU'VE ALL CONVICTED HIM!
Re my sons and college baseball. No reason to reference them here.
I played in the minors for a couple of years back in the late 60's and early '70's, and I'm not so sure that most of the guys knew what they were putting in their systems. Saw tons of bottles of pills of one sort or another.
I don't have to apologize for saying anything and pulling out the race card and Barry. McGwire admitted using stuff and it was ok. No firestorm in St. Louis or the nation. He did hit 70 home runs one year, didn't he? How about Giambi...no one cares. I roomed on the road with EArl Williams, Braves Rookie of the Year in 1971...I sat at a counter at the old 5 and 10 Neisner Bros store in Florida with guys who couldn't get served a hamburger because they were black. One of them, a teammate, Udell Chambers, couldn't get served in Florida. He died for US in Nam! Don't talk to me about the "race" card...I've been there and done that.
When I came over on the boat years ago, they called me a "dumb DP" because I couldn't speak the language. Nowhere near as bad as being "black" or having an "Afro" in the '60's, '70's and '80's. Can't imagine what would have happened to me or how I might have felt if I was a young black man years ago.
Two standards here, too. Barry...and everyone else.
Put the shoe on the other foot. You have a son playing college ball at this time, and another one that played at Miss. State. If they were All-Americans, and #1 draft choices, would it still be hunky dorey with you if they were juicing up in order to help accomplish those honors?
If they were one of the best players in the history of MLB, would you smile and brush off the fact that they use illegal substances to maintain themselves?
And as for the race card... forget it. It has no place here, and you should apologize for using it in the first place."
--
What Barry does with his body is his own business. So far, all we have is a "leak" from Grand Jury testimony. Too, the mope that owned that company has testified repeatedly that he doesn't know whether or not Barry knew that the stuff was legal or illegal. Barry has testified that he didn't know that the stuff was illegal. The guy that sold it to him was a childhood friend. Who knows the real story. Only Barry does.
Apparently, this steroid stuff has only been illegal since 1989. Baseball had no prohibition against it since ????, if ever.
If OJ wasn't guilty with the evidence against him, who would convict Barry of anything? No one. Moreover, HE HASN'T BEEN CHARGED WITH ANYTHING AND YOU'VE ALL CONVICTED HIM!
Re my sons and college baseball. No reason to reference them here.
I played in the minors for a couple of years back in the late 60's and early '70's, and I'm not so sure that most of the guys knew what they were putting in their systems. Saw tons of bottles of pills of one sort or another.
I don't have to apologize for saying anything and pulling out the race card and Barry. McGwire admitted using stuff and it was ok. No firestorm in St. Louis or the nation. He did hit 70 home runs one year, didn't he? How about Giambi...no one cares. I roomed on the road with EArl Williams, Braves Rookie of the Year in 1971...I sat at a counter at the old 5 and 10 Neisner Bros store in Florida with guys who couldn't get served a hamburger because they were black. One of them, a teammate, Udell Chambers, couldn't get served in Florida. He died for US in Nam! Don't talk to me about the "race" card...I've been there and done that.
When I came over on the boat years ago, they called me a "dumb DP" because I couldn't speak the language. Nowhere near as bad as being "black" or having an "Afro" in the '60's, '70's and '80's. Can't imagine what would have happened to me or how I might have felt if I was a young black man years ago.
Two standards here, too. Barry...and everyone else.
No of course not... I couldn't possibly be because he owns ridiculous records and is looking to break the most respected record of all. 
Its a repeat post - I apologize in advance - but I was too lazy to type again.
Barry will do whatever Barry wants to do - just like Barry has always done.
If Barry wants to suck down a gallon of liquid roids tomorrow - he will do it. Whether any of us - including MLB - like it or not.
If he wants to deny it - he will.
Barry is Barry - and we live in a Barry world.
Barry knows this - Barry has alot of money and alot of lawyers - and Barry aint changing.
The fact of the matter is MLB does not have a drug testing policy of any relevance.
I actually wish Barry would hit 400 home runs one season - then suck down 600 hot dogs in one sitting - and then turn green like the Hulk and triple jump right out of the stadium. LOL
Barry will do whatever Barry wants to do - just like Barry has always done.
If Barry wants to suck down a gallon of liquid roids tomorrow - he will do it. Whether any of us - including MLB - like it or not.
If he wants to deny it - he will.
Barry is Barry - and we live in a Barry world.
Barry knows this - Barry has alot of money and alot of lawyers - and Barry aint changing.
The fact of the matter is MLB does not have a drug testing policy of any relevance.
I actually wish Barry would hit 400 home runs one season - then suck down 600 hot dogs in one sitting - and then turn green like the Hulk and triple jump right out of the stadium. LOL
With all due respect, I think the "race card" is way way off base. Good grief, the record Bonds is chasing is that of Mr. Aaron, and I personally would take Mr. Mays in his prime over BB any day. "Race card"? No way. BB's surly personality doesn't help him, and he'd be perceived as less than personable in any color, but this is about taking drugs and then lying about it, over and over and over.
(p.s. Some excellent columns in today's Washington Post sports section; sorry, my computer expertise doesn't include being able to link them here. Mr. Wilbon advocates asterik's besides every Bonds' record.)
If Beenthere ever in his life was mistreated, that's just wrong, but that has nothing to do with whether or not race is a factor with Bonds. Mr. Rose seems to generate equally emotional outrages for his gambling in baseball. No race card here. Just my humble opinion.
(p.s. Some excellent columns in today's Washington Post sports section; sorry, my computer expertise doesn't include being able to link them here. Mr. Wilbon advocates asterik's besides every Bonds' record.)
If Beenthere ever in his life was mistreated, that's just wrong, but that has nothing to do with whether or not race is a factor with Bonds. Mr. Rose seems to generate equally emotional outrages for his gambling in baseball. No race card here. Just my humble opinion.
All the fame and money in the world cannot give a person character.
And that - IMO - is all that matters.
Barry Bonds never understood this simple life rule IMO. And I doubt he ever will.
And that - IMO - is all that matters.
Barry Bonds never understood this simple life rule IMO. And I doubt he ever will.
Before this revolation there was the speculation that bonds performance was because he used steroids.
It don't matter one bit rather he knew he was or was not taking them. The fact is that he had performed at this level because of the drugs not in spite of them.
The botom line is that He took steroids....period!
Now all his accomplishments are tainted for ever
Before he was 36 years old he never hit more then 46 dingers. Then he started taking the roids. and the reat is in the history books
If these performance enhansing drugs were legal to baseball then shame on baseball for allowing this to cheapen the sport!
It don't matter one bit rather he knew he was or was not taking them. The fact is that he had performed at this level because of the drugs not in spite of them.
The botom line is that He took steroids....period!
Now all his accomplishments are tainted for ever
Before he was 36 years old he never hit more then 46 dingers. Then he started taking the roids. and the reat is in the history books
If these performance enhansing drugs were legal to baseball then shame on baseball for allowing this to cheapen the sport!
The sport will not be cheapened.
Only the liars and cheats in the game are cheapened.
This spring and summer - there will be millions of people watching and playing the game of baseball. Young kids - old fat men - and evry one else in between.
The Bonds - the Roses - the Giambis - the Fehrs and the Seligs will eventually just fade away.
They think they are bigger than the game.
They are sadly mistaken.
They are just temporary stains.
Only the liars and cheats in the game are cheapened.
This spring and summer - there will be millions of people watching and playing the game of baseball. Young kids - old fat men - and evry one else in between.
The Bonds - the Roses - the Giambis - the Fehrs and the Seligs will eventually just fade away.
They think they are bigger than the game.
They are sadly mistaken.
They are just temporary stains.
I agree with "ITS"
Baseball will be baseball no matter what
The game has withstood scandals before and it will again no matter how big or small the scandal
Baseball will be baseball no matter what
The game has withstood scandals before and it will again no matter how big or small the scandal
Yes baseball will go on and hopefully continue to fill the stands and make plenty of money to pay the salary's of these cheaters and owners.
However the fact will remain, that the records were broke by cheaters. This just ain't fair to those that broke records legally before these records were broke!
TG
However the fact will remain, that the records were broke by cheaters. This just ain't fair to those that broke records legally before these records were broke!
TG
TG
That pretty much sums it up!
Anyone have an email or snail mail address for Bud Selig?
That pretty much sums it up!
Anyone have an email or snail mail address for Bud Selig?
Bonds says he didn't know what was in the ointment or the salve that he applied to his body...
Can you believe him?
I thought about it and tried to recall in my athletic career whether I had ever read a label or asked any questions about the substances that we used on our bodies to supposedly to alleviate our aches and pains...you know what, I can't think of a time in my entire career that I actually looked at a label to see what was in the stupid stuff we used.
We used to use something called "RED HOT" but never knew what was in it. Used a bunch of other stuff that the trainers gave to us to use, but to this day I couldn't tell you what was in it. But I found out it was cortisone cream. Now lets get real folks "cortisone cream" is used for acne. But I don't think that is what we are talking about here.
I thought Bonds just may be telling the truth... when you think back on your own athletic days, I bet you never read the labels either.
But then I listened very carefully to what Sheffield said when Bonds introduced him to the idea of "using" the "cream" and the "clear".
Bonds told Sheffield "don't ask" when he said he asked Bonds to tell him what was in the "cream" and the "clear". The question is, in my mind; what did Bonds know that he didn't want Sheffield to know, and was Bonds trying to hide something?
It doesn't look good and quite frankly I am devastated that the player with Bonds skills would "sell out" his reputation as a great ballplayer to attain some image base on a foundation built on falsity and deceit.
If it all turns out to be true...and it looks that way, not only should Bonds records be expunged and voided for the years that he was "using" but he should be banned from ever being voted into the Hall Of Fame.
I don't think Bonds was trying to cure his acne, or had a case of poison ivy or poison oak.
The "cream" and "clear" was not designed to cure acne, poison ivy or poison oak, it was steroids designed to give a player an illegal advantage over his competition...it's called cheating.
I cannot tell you how disappointed I am in Bonds and Giambi.
Can you believe him?
I thought about it and tried to recall in my athletic career whether I had ever read a label or asked any questions about the substances that we used on our bodies to supposedly to alleviate our aches and pains...you know what, I can't think of a time in my entire career that I actually looked at a label to see what was in the stupid stuff we used.
We used to use something called "RED HOT" but never knew what was in it. Used a bunch of other stuff that the trainers gave to us to use, but to this day I couldn't tell you what was in it. But I found out it was cortisone cream. Now lets get real folks "cortisone cream" is used for acne. But I don't think that is what we are talking about here.
I thought Bonds just may be telling the truth... when you think back on your own athletic days, I bet you never read the labels either.
But then I listened very carefully to what Sheffield said when Bonds introduced him to the idea of "using" the "cream" and the "clear".
Bonds told Sheffield "don't ask" when he said he asked Bonds to tell him what was in the "cream" and the "clear". The question is, in my mind; what did Bonds know that he didn't want Sheffield to know, and was Bonds trying to hide something?
It doesn't look good and quite frankly I am devastated that the player with Bonds skills would "sell out" his reputation as a great ballplayer to attain some image base on a foundation built on falsity and deceit.
If it all turns out to be true...and it looks that way, not only should Bonds records be expunged and voided for the years that he was "using" but he should be banned from ever being voted into the Hall Of Fame.
I don't think Bonds was trying to cure his acne, or had a case of poison ivy or poison oak.
The "cream" and "clear" was not designed to cure acne, poison ivy or poison oak, it was steroids designed to give a player an illegal advantage over his competition...it's called cheating.
I cannot tell you how disappointed I am in Bonds and Giambi.
Anabolic steroids have been illegal at least since 2001 unless prescribed and dispensed by licensed physicians. That's for all people in the US, not just ballplayers.
Of course, THG wasn't known at that time, and was just added to the list of banned substances in March. But it's not necessary that a chemical composition be specifically banned to justify punishment for its use, it just has to be chemically similar to one explicitly stated as banned. If the use of the substance in question is for the same ends as one on the banned list and it can be shown that the reason for choosing the substance in question was specifically to circumvent detection, there are legal precedents for punishment. (Kelli White was banned from competing for two years and from the summer's Olympic Games and stripped of her 2003 World Champion gold medals and all previous medals dating back to 2000, despite no test even existing for THG until 2003; Calvin Harrison was punished for using modafinil despite his lawyer's argument that, because modafinil was not specifically named on the banned substance list in 2003, Harrison had no way of knowing it was prohibited. The USADA's response was that modafinil was prohibited in 2003 because it was chemically related to stimulants named on the list of banned substances.)
The whole reason for developing THG was to circumvent steroid testing. That fact, alone, makes THG banned by proxy. Legally speaking, if Bonds used THG in 2001, the courts and/or MLB could easily go back and impose 2001 level punishment on Bonds for the use, as if it was a banned substance.
And the "I didn't know" line means he's either lying or overwhelming stupid. Would any of us "understand" if our sons used a substance given to them by a friend or a coach that they were told would improve their performance without asking questions (that involved the word 'steroids') and getting some outside advice?
Whatever the parents here experiences were in the past, illegal substances are very much in the news NOW, and athletes are aware of their existence, possible side-effects, risks, and illegalities.
Of course, THG wasn't known at that time, and was just added to the list of banned substances in March. But it's not necessary that a chemical composition be specifically banned to justify punishment for its use, it just has to be chemically similar to one explicitly stated as banned. If the use of the substance in question is for the same ends as one on the banned list and it can be shown that the reason for choosing the substance in question was specifically to circumvent detection, there are legal precedents for punishment. (Kelli White was banned from competing for two years and from the summer's Olympic Games and stripped of her 2003 World Champion gold medals and all previous medals dating back to 2000, despite no test even existing for THG until 2003; Calvin Harrison was punished for using modafinil despite his lawyer's argument that, because modafinil was not specifically named on the banned substance list in 2003, Harrison had no way of knowing it was prohibited. The USADA's response was that modafinil was prohibited in 2003 because it was chemically related to stimulants named on the list of banned substances.)
The whole reason for developing THG was to circumvent steroid testing. That fact, alone, makes THG banned by proxy. Legally speaking, if Bonds used THG in 2001, the courts and/or MLB could easily go back and impose 2001 level punishment on Bonds for the use, as if it was a banned substance.
And the "I didn't know" line means he's either lying or overwhelming stupid. Would any of us "understand" if our sons used a substance given to them by a friend or a coach that they were told would improve their performance without asking questions (that involved the word 'steroids') and getting some outside advice?
Whatever the parents here experiences were in the past, illegal substances are very much in the news NOW, and athletes are aware of their existence, possible side-effects, risks, and illegalities.
Gotta ask BT & TR how the view is down there with their heads stuck in the sand? Even Hank Aaron is voicing his disappointment in all this.
"Once a supporter and admirer of Barry Bonds, all-time homerun king Hank Aaron is now disturbed to hear Bonds' statements to a grand jury investigating a California lab for illegal steroids distribution, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported Sunday."
ESPN
"Once a supporter and admirer of Barry Bonds, all-time homerun king Hank Aaron is now disturbed to hear Bonds' statements to a grand jury investigating a California lab for illegal steroids distribution, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported Sunday."
ESPN
Had a great answer wiped out by the cyberspace demons....
Will be back posting later tonight or tomorrow.
Will be back posting later tonight or tomorrow.
Beenthere, if you're looking for sympathy as a white guy who came to this country not knowing English, you're not going to get it here. You're one of millions that have done it.
As for your experiences back in the '60's, all I can say is, it's a different time. It's regrettable that this country went through a period when a guy like Earl Williams couldn't get a burger at a luncheon counter. Hope you enjoyed yours. I don't think Earl would have any problem nowadays.
That's all interesting, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with you flinging out the race card and saying that people are out to get Barry because of his skin color.
Personally, I'm disappointed in any player that resorts to steroids to get better. That goes for Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield, Canseco, Mcqwire, or anyone else involved with it, regardless of skin color. Have I left any nationality out? Ok, if Ichiro does it, then he lets me down too.
I'm not surprised that you want to leave your kids out of the discussion.... I would too. You don't care what Bonds or the others take, but I have a funny feeling you'd have different thoughts if your kid was doing it.
Now the Yankees want to pull the plug on Giambi, and cancel the remainder of his $82 million contract. Must be because he now looks like a stock clerk instead of a HR hitter because he's off the juice. These are the same "moral Yankees" that kept bringing Steve Howe and Darryl Strawberry back. Of course, they had NO IDEA that he was doing the stuff. I could tell by looking at him.
I hope that they do cancel his contract... maybe he'll get mad and start naming names, and get some more rats running.
By the way, Barry was interviewed several times SINCE his Grand Jury testimony, and not only denied taking steroids, but also said that there was absolutely no way that he could have accidentally taken them, or taken them without knowing what he was using. His body is a temple.
And people think that Pete Rose is a pathological liar? This is going to be fun.
As for your experiences back in the '60's, all I can say is, it's a different time. It's regrettable that this country went through a period when a guy like Earl Williams couldn't get a burger at a luncheon counter. Hope you enjoyed yours. I don't think Earl would have any problem nowadays.
That's all interesting, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with you flinging out the race card and saying that people are out to get Barry because of his skin color.
Personally, I'm disappointed in any player that resorts to steroids to get better. That goes for Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield, Canseco, Mcqwire, or anyone else involved with it, regardless of skin color. Have I left any nationality out? Ok, if Ichiro does it, then he lets me down too.
I'm not surprised that you want to leave your kids out of the discussion.... I would too. You don't care what Bonds or the others take, but I have a funny feeling you'd have different thoughts if your kid was doing it.
Now the Yankees want to pull the plug on Giambi, and cancel the remainder of his $82 million contract. Must be because he now looks like a stock clerk instead of a HR hitter because he's off the juice. These are the same "moral Yankees" that kept bringing Steve Howe and Darryl Strawberry back. Of course, they had NO IDEA that he was doing the stuff. I could tell by looking at him.
I hope that they do cancel his contract... maybe he'll get mad and start naming names, and get some more rats running.
By the way, Barry was interviewed several times SINCE his Grand Jury testimony, and not only denied taking steroids, but also said that there was absolutely no way that he could have accidentally taken them, or taken them without knowing what he was using. His body is a temple.
And people think that Pete Rose is a pathological liar? This is going to be fun.
When you look at these guys that went off the "juice" you can see a rather significant decrease in body mass.
Why is it that Bonds is not shrinking? I'm not suggesting that he did or didn't take steroids, but I do wonder why, if he was taking them, he hasn't wilted away like most of the guys that have admitted use. Does anyone have any explanation for this?
My understanding is that he has been tested recently and has agreed to be tested at any time... His swing looks as powerful as ever so I am curious because this seems like a contradiction.
Why is it that Bonds is not shrinking? I'm not suggesting that he did or didn't take steroids, but I do wonder why, if he was taking them, he hasn't wilted away like most of the guys that have admitted use. Does anyone have any explanation for this?
My understanding is that he has been tested recently and has agreed to be tested at any time... His swing looks as powerful as ever so I am curious because this seems like a contradiction.
I saw Bagwell in an interview this summer and he was questioned as to why he had lost weight and "slimmed down"--his answer was interesting--- #1 he is older--# 2 both his shoulders get shot up regularly so that he can play-- the shoulder condition now keep him from lifting as he used to thus the change in his body appearance
Don't know if this is the answer but it sounds logical to me, having had both my shoulders operated on, and knowing the immobility and pain I had before the surgery--
Just another thought
Don't know if this is the answer but it sounds logical to me, having had both my shoulders operated on, and knowing the immobility and pain I had before the surgery--
Just another thought
A guy takes a couple of days off from the website and comes back and reads that someone thinks people are picking on Barry cause he’s black and couple others saying they don’t care what someone like Barry does because he’s good.
Wow! Those sure are some well though out positions.
As far as a couple people here who still do not believe Bonds has been steroid induced, I can only that I have never seen him take steroids and I doubt if anyone else on this board has seen him take steroids either. However Barry has admitted that he has taken Steroids so I think we should take him at his word. From here on out can we all at least agree that Barry has taken steroids?
Wow! Those sure are some well though out positions.
As far as a couple people here who still do not believe Bonds has been steroid induced, I can only that I have never seen him take steroids and I doubt if anyone else on this board has seen him take steroids either. However Barry has admitted that he has taken Steroids so I think we should take him at his word. From here on out can we all at least agree that Barry has taken steroids?
"However Barry has admitted that he has taken Steroids so I think we should take him at his word. From here on out can we all at least agree that Barry has taken steroids?"
SBK...When and where did he admit this, please?
Moreover, Selig has said that he won't discipline anyone for anything done in the past.
Deal with it.
SBK...When and where did he admit this, please?
Moreover, Selig has said that he won't discipline anyone for anything done in the past.
Deal with it.
John are you a defense lawyer?
Beenthere,
Are you saying that the reports of Bonds admitting taking the substances containing steroids in his grand jury testimony are incorrect?
When did Selig say he wouldn’t discipline anyone for things done in the past? I don’t think Pete Rose got that memo either.
You say I should deal with it but there are a lot of people including myself that think the game is too important to pretend that nothing happened. Did you ever hear that, “Cheaters never win”, well this is a chance to keep that statement intact?
Beenthere, should we take the same approach you suggest here with the next controversy regarding the integrity of the game, whatever it may be? Or should we hold people accountable no matter their ability, popularity or even their skin color?
Are you saying that the reports of Bonds admitting taking the substances containing steroids in his grand jury testimony are incorrect?
When did Selig say he wouldn’t discipline anyone for things done in the past? I don’t think Pete Rose got that memo either.
You say I should deal with it but there are a lot of people including myself that think the game is too important to pretend that nothing happened. Did you ever hear that, “Cheaters never win”, well this is a chance to keep that statement intact?
Beenthere, should we take the same approach you suggest here with the next controversy regarding the integrity of the game, whatever it may be? Or should we hold people accountable no matter their ability, popularity or even their skin color?
Is there a test yet for the substances Balco's pushing?
If this were a non-baseball related site, I'd understand the attitude that what a ballplayer takes is immaterial as it's all entertainment and hr hitters are fun to watch.
But this is the game that we and our sons love. Our sons are playing it. And if the Biggest Names in the game are juiced and that's just fine and dandy, how long will it be before they're tempted and maybe even succumb? My son was offered 'roids in the weight room as a freshman in hs. He's in a conference where an entire team has no necks and bad skin. He was recruited by a school where juice WAS the training table, and that was the major factor in his turning them down. All this temptation in front of a kid who is constantly being told he's too slight to be a catcher.
Your sons would have no trouble getting 'roids. Watch the message you're sending them when you talk about Bonds.
If this were a non-baseball related site, I'd understand the attitude that what a ballplayer takes is immaterial as it's all entertainment and hr hitters are fun to watch.
But this is the game that we and our sons love. Our sons are playing it. And if the Biggest Names in the game are juiced and that's just fine and dandy, how long will it be before they're tempted and maybe even succumb? My son was offered 'roids in the weight room as a freshman in hs. He's in a conference where an entire team has no necks and bad skin. He was recruited by a school where juice WAS the training table, and that was the major factor in his turning them down. All this temptation in front of a kid who is constantly being told he's too slight to be a catcher.
Your sons would have no trouble getting 'roids. Watch the message you're sending them when you talk about Bonds.
Orlando,
I understand what you are saying - and it is great advice - especially for younger players and parents IMO.
I always used BARRY as an example for both my sons as to what you should never be. They actually got sick of me telling them. But they understood. Character - respect for others - truthfullness. All important traits of which BARRY has none. Zero.
At least he has been consistent for the last 15 years LOL.
BARRY served his purpose for me - thats for sure.
There is value in negative role models as well.
It just depends on how you use them IMO.
I understand what you are saying - and it is great advice - especially for younger players and parents IMO.
I always used BARRY as an example for both my sons as to what you should never be. They actually got sick of me telling them. But they understood. Character - respect for others - truthfullness. All important traits of which BARRY has none. Zero.
At least he has been consistent for the last 15 years LOL.
BARRY served his purpose for me - thats for sure.
There is value in negative role models as well.
It just depends on how you use them IMO.
I saw a report today wherein it stated that the players in all probability will not be punished due to the fact that all the "so called admissions" were for trangressions prior to the advent of any policy in MLB. In fact the growth hormone that has been noted is not yet on the MLB banned list so the article states.
Also , I agree with Been---Bonds has never admitted to knowlingly used steroids or any other illegal substance not has Sheffield from what I have seen.
Also , I agree with Been---Bonds has never admitted to knowlingly used steroids or any other illegal substance not has Sheffield from what I have seen.
Knowingly did it... is that the key?
All this is about is that at least Sheffield, Giambi, the late Ken Caminitti and to some extent Big Mac, were stand up about this.
But barry
Today bonds' aunt was quoted as stating that little barry was unknowingly "secretly doped" by his trainer.
...and, besides, these guys needed a rule to tell them this isn't the proper thing to do.
BTW, there has been a ban in place, it's just that the present punishment is a joke.
All this is about is that at least Sheffield, Giambi, the late Ken Caminitti and to some extent Big Mac, were stand up about this.
But barry
Today bonds' aunt was quoted as stating that little barry was unknowingly "secretly doped" by his trainer.
...and, besides, these guys needed a rule to tell them this isn't the proper thing to do
. BTW, there has been a ban in place, it's just that the present punishment is a joke.
The Balco's of the world will continue to stay a step ahead of MLB.
The mere existence (and power) of the players union and their lawyers guarantees this.
You create the new designer drugs - you use them - MLB then bans them - and you do it all over again.
Smart lawyers, the MLB union and players highly motivated and compensated to cheat - plus - a brain dead commissioner. Its a slam dunk.
We should just get used to it - enjoy the games - and take the good with the bad as we see it.
There are many great role models to use for your kids - and many POS like BARRY to use as well.
Everything has a purpose IMO - and the game is still great. Thats one thing that will never change IMO.
The mere existence (and power) of the players union and their lawyers guarantees this.
You create the new designer drugs - you use them - MLB then bans them - and you do it all over again.
Smart lawyers, the MLB union and players highly motivated and compensated to cheat - plus - a brain dead commissioner. Its a slam dunk.
We should just get used to it - enjoy the games - and take the good with the bad as we see it.
There are many great role models to use for your kids - and many POS like BARRY to use as well.
Everything has a purpose IMO - and the game is still great. Thats one thing that will never change IMO.
We can debate this topic ad infinitum but the bottom line is that MLB and the Players Union need to have a program in place that the PUBLIC is aware of and can make the public happy.
It truly makes for heated discussion and always will and even the regulations are in place players will still try to circumvent the regulations.
By the way Hey Batter it is possible to not beware of what one uses in a drug or what the side effects can be--thus yes KNOWINGLY is a key word here--Sheffield claims he did not know all the ingredients in the creme /salve that he used.
Are you aware that many medical prescriptions which your doctor gives you carry ingredients that would cause you and I to fail most of the Olympic drugs tests as well as many others, even in the work place ? The manufacturers do not list all the ingredients
I am not defending the players--all I am saying is that to date nothing has been proven and that YES the word KNOWINGLY could very well be key here.
Just my thoughts
It truly makes for heated discussion and always will and even the regulations are in place players will still try to circumvent the regulations.
By the way Hey Batter it is possible to not beware of what one uses in a drug or what the side effects can be--thus yes KNOWINGLY is a key word here--Sheffield claims he did not know all the ingredients in the creme /salve that he used.
Are you aware that many medical prescriptions which your doctor gives you carry ingredients that would cause you and I to fail most of the Olympic drugs tests as well as many others, even in the work place ? The manufacturers do not list all the ingredients
I am not defending the players--all I am saying is that to date nothing has been proven and that YES the word KNOWINGLY could very well be key here.
Just my thoughts
TR- I understand the concept and I understand your points and most certainly respect you and your opinion and the fact that the "jury isn't in yet.
But I also know that I've not seen it for myself, but I have a pretty strong belief that the world is round. I've seen barry bonds and enough of this situation and of life in general that I believe that he purposely took drugs to enhance himself and knew what they were.
I will also acknowledge that having had the distinct displeasure of meeting barry bonds and having had other opportunities to observe his behavior, I find him to be a vile human being and I will readily admit to a bias in believing the absolute worst about him.
But I also know that I've not seen it for myself, but I have a pretty strong belief that the world is round. I've seen barry bonds and enough of this situation and of life in general that I believe that he purposely took drugs to enhance himself and knew what they were.
I will also acknowledge that having had the distinct displeasure of meeting barry bonds and having had other opportunities to observe his behavior, I find him to be a vile human being and I will readily admit to a bias in believing the absolute worst about him.
HeyBatter
Being a "vile human being" in your eyes does not make the man guilty !!!!
You can believe what you want-- I also believe what I want--but until he is proven guilty the man is innocent
Being a "vile human being" in your eyes does not make the man guilty !!!!
You can believe what you want-- I also believe what I want--but until he is proven guilty the man is innocent
quote:
You can believe what you want-- I also believe what I want--but until he is proven guilty the man is innocent
You believe he's innocent, and I believe he's guilty of doping.
End of story. I'll let you believe what you want and you let me believe what I want.
...and you both have a right to your opinions.
Is this really that BIG OF A DEAL? Just kidding...
Bonds should pay the ultimate penalty!
Bonds should pay the ultimate penalty!
Which is worse? Barry Bonds and steroids or Ricky Williams wanting to smoke "Hippie lettuce" with the Dali Lama and Lenny Kravitz? 
Let the hitters take all the steriods their bodies can handle .... then move the mound up to about 24 inches and change the backdrop in CF to white ... That ought to about do it.
When Bonds and others were using steroids, baseball didn't prohibited yet, so let forget it about and let be really hard from now on.
About Bonds, and others records, they have to stand. Steroids help, but they don't convert any player in a superstar. With or without steroids, superstars are superstars, and mediocre players still mediocres.
About Bonds, and others records, they have to stand. Steroids help, but they don't convert any player in a superstar. With or without steroids, superstars are superstars, and mediocre players still mediocres.
quote:
Originally posted by Racab:
When Bonds and others were using steroids, baseball didn't prohibited yet, so let forget it about and let be really hard from now on.
About Bonds, and others records, they have to stand. Steroids help, but they don't convert any player in a superstar. With or without steroids, superstars are superstars, and mediocre players still mediocres.
But they cheated and should be punished. Their records for a yet to be determined number of years should be disallowed. Why should Bonds be allowed to take all the records when he clearly had an unfair advantage? Would the NCAA or the olympics allow such, I don't think so.
Amazing how the Olympic superstars with ties to BALCO didn't fare very well in the most recent Olympics. Maybe steroids do convert an athlete from a star to a superstar. I believe those Olympic athletes who get caught using steroids, including those not specifically banned are stripped of their medals and their records.
Records always will be relative to the times that were set. For example, pitchers were not the same when Ruth set his record.
Saves are now easier to broke, because 30 years ago was not closers.
Carl Ripken record, never will be broken, because actual players make too much money to play for pride.
How many Pete Rose's hits were hit because the astro turf in so many parks in the 70's.?
How many HR Bonds will hit today if the pitching mount and the fences were the same that in the 70's?
Do Ricky Henderson steal so many bases in today long ball basebal?
Is it cheating use something that is legal to use in baseball? . Now that is ilegal the line have been set. Before and after steroids!.... the same that before and after shortened the fences and the pitching mount, before and after the live ball etc...
Saves are now easier to broke, because 30 years ago was not closers.
Carl Ripken record, never will be broken, because actual players make too much money to play for pride.
How many Pete Rose's hits were hit because the astro turf in so many parks in the 70's.?
How many HR Bonds will hit today if the pitching mount and the fences were the same that in the 70's?
Do Ricky Henderson steal so many bases in today long ball basebal?
Is it cheating use something that is legal to use in baseball? . Now that is ilegal the line have been set. Before and after steroids!.... the same that before and after shortened the fences and the pitching mount, before and after the live ball etc...