He 'didn't know'...........
We have become the "I didn't know" society. This mindset is prevalent and widespread. No one's guilty because no one knows anything.
Get rid of him.
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3214132
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Yeah, what kind of bull**** is "I don't know." Doubt the conversation went like this-
Anderson: "Here Bondsie take this stuff it will give you the edge you need."
Bonds: "Sure thing dude."
Anderson: "Here Bondsie take this stuff it will give you the edge you need."
Bonds: "Sure thing dude."
What has happened to innocent til proven guilty?
And I ask again--why the same paper and writer with the story regarding supposedly sealed papers from the Grand Jury ?
And I ask again--why the same paper and writer with the story regarding supposedly sealed papers from the Grand Jury ?
Everyone knows Bonds is using this stuff. You don't get as big as he is at his age just by working out. He only hit around 30 dingers at best in his prime.He should not go in the record books the same as Arron and Ruth.
So he thought this "professional trainer" was giving him "flax seed oil and something for his arthritis"? Mr. "I'm so careful about what I put in my body" didn't know what it was?
The worst first year law student in America would have a field day cross-examining good old Barry.
The man has an incredible batting eye, and has put up unbelievable numbers, but you can now believe this:
He has used steroids. Not a rumor. Cold, hard fact.
He deserves every bit of flak that he gets as do Giambi and the others. They publicly lied, on camera and in print, and now the crows will come home to roost. The character of all of these guys is jumping out of our TV screens: they cheated, then they lied, then they lied some more. None will make into the Integrity Hall of Fame. They've had many many chances to tell the truth, and didn't. None of us is sin-free, and the expression "The Truth Will Find Ye" is gospel. Literally.
Give me the Say Hey Kid any day, any time, any where.
And give me Little League, High School, and College ball any day of the week. My NCAA playing son has more drug restrictions on him than do MLB players, with mandatory random testing, by both his school and the NCAA.
The worst first year law student in America would have a field day cross-examining good old Barry.
The man has an incredible batting eye, and has put up unbelievable numbers, but you can now believe this:
He has used steroids. Not a rumor. Cold, hard fact.
He deserves every bit of flak that he gets as do Giambi and the others. They publicly lied, on camera and in print, and now the crows will come home to roost. The character of all of these guys is jumping out of our TV screens: they cheated, then they lied, then they lied some more. None will make into the Integrity Hall of Fame. They've had many many chances to tell the truth, and didn't. None of us is sin-free, and the expression "The Truth Will Find Ye" is gospel. Literally.
Give me the Say Hey Kid any day, any time, any where.
And give me Little League, High School, and College ball any day of the week. My NCAA playing son has more drug restrictions on him than do MLB players, with mandatory random testing, by both his school and the NCAA.
hokie
I am not arguing whether he did or did not--but where are the "cold hard facts" regarding Bonds--right now it is all conjecture until such time as he admits it or is proven top be a liar--same newspaper every time I wonder why that is?
And you still have to see the ball and hit the ball and last time I looked it up steroids did not improve a batters eye sight nor does it improve his ability to hit the ball. It will make him stronger and in many cases prevent muscle tears and injuries. The only injury free year that McGwire had was his huge record year when he was taking LEGAL supplements BUT he also hit 49 homers, more if he was not injured , in his rookie year.
We can surmise all we want but the fact is that Bonds is perhaps the best hitter that ever played the game--steroids didn't make him that if in fact he is a 'roids man
I am not arguing whether he did or did not--but where are the "cold hard facts" regarding Bonds--right now it is all conjecture until such time as he admits it or is proven top be a liar--same newspaper every time I wonder why that is?
And you still have to see the ball and hit the ball and last time I looked it up steroids did not improve a batters eye sight nor does it improve his ability to hit the ball. It will make him stronger and in many cases prevent muscle tears and injuries. The only injury free year that McGwire had was his huge record year when he was taking LEGAL supplements BUT he also hit 49 homers, more if he was not injured , in his rookie year.
We can surmise all we want but the fact is that Bonds is perhaps the best hitter that ever played the game--steroids didn't make him that if in fact he is a 'roids man
I'm with TRHit on this. I'm not going to start to pass judement until and unless a grand jury indicts Bonds. While I'm not a lawyer by any means, I have sat on a grand jury.
The purpose of the grand jury is to evaluate the evidence and decide if there is enough evidence to indict - to evaluate the possibility that the law was broken. They don't decide guilt or innocence - only if there was a possible crime committed.
The jury has three choices: indict, no-bill or pass (pass gives the option for the prosecuting attorney to shelve it or pass it on to another grand jury.)These proceedings are supposed to be sealed, no juror can ever talk about the proceedings. And ANYTHING can be brought up relevent (or not!)to the subject of the grand jury investigation. If Bonds got a speeding ticket in 1980 it can be discussed. Anyone with anything to say about the subject can be brought in as a witness. Witnesses cannot have an attorney present. Everyone gets to ask whatever questions they want.
The vote is (usually)a 2/3rds. majority. So 12 of 16 grand jurors must agree - whatever the outcome.(The number of grand juors varies with the court in which the district is in.)
The whole process actually favors the prosecution. And having sat on one, I find it hard to believe at this point in time that the evidence is strong enough to indict.
Essentially, it takes no more than a hunch on the part of the jurors to indict - to decide if a crime was committed. The prosecuting attorney can steer the jury any way they want, short of telling them how to vote.
Now, back to baseball....
The purpose of the grand jury is to evaluate the evidence and decide if there is enough evidence to indict - to evaluate the possibility that the law was broken. They don't decide guilt or innocence - only if there was a possible crime committed.
The jury has three choices: indict, no-bill or pass (pass gives the option for the prosecuting attorney to shelve it or pass it on to another grand jury.)These proceedings are supposed to be sealed, no juror can ever talk about the proceedings. And ANYTHING can be brought up relevent (or not!)to the subject of the grand jury investigation. If Bonds got a speeding ticket in 1980 it can be discussed. Anyone with anything to say about the subject can be brought in as a witness. Witnesses cannot have an attorney present. Everyone gets to ask whatever questions they want.
The vote is (usually)a 2/3rds. majority. So 12 of 16 grand jurors must agree - whatever the outcome.(The number of grand juors varies with the court in which the district is in.)
The whole process actually favors the prosecution. And having sat on one, I find it hard to believe at this point in time that the evidence is strong enough to indict.
Essentially, it takes no more than a hunch on the part of the jurors to indict - to decide if a crime was committed. The prosecuting attorney can steer the jury any way they want, short of telling them how to vote.
Now, back to baseball....
TR, Maybe it's just the doubter in me but I have a question.
Since names of players that admittingly use steroids are are beginning to come out in numbers, there must be a reason players use steroids. Bonds has not proven guilty by a legal court. However in the publics eye and the major league players eyes the concensus indicates he was guilty of using some type of enhancing drug, legal or illegal, at some time. My question is then if Bonds used a supplement how can he be possibly the best hitter that ever played the game since we will never know exactly how the supplement affected his abililites?
What surprises me are these athletes treat their bodies like shrines, promote fitness and games, yet put little value on their life.
quote:
We can surmise all we want but the fact is that Bonds is perhaps the best hitter that ever played the game--steroids didn't make him that if in fact he is a 'roids man
Since names of players that admittingly use steroids are are beginning to come out in numbers, there must be a reason players use steroids. Bonds has not proven guilty by a legal court. However in the publics eye and the major league players eyes the concensus indicates he was guilty of using some type of enhancing drug, legal or illegal, at some time. My question is then if Bonds used a supplement how can he be possibly the best hitter that ever played the game since we will never know exactly how the supplement affected his abililites?
What surprises me are these athletes treat their bodies like shrines, promote fitness and games, yet put little value on their life.
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
why the same paper and writer with the story regarding supposedly sealed papers from the Grand Jury ?
--same newspaper every time I wonder why that is?
This reeks of east coast bias. Back in the days a certain Watergate informant would only release information to a single newspaper (Wash Post) and to 2 investigative reporters (Woodward & Bernstein). Did you react to those disclosures with the same level of suspicion?
BALCO, the SF Giants, & the Oakland A's (Bonds & Giambi) are local news stories for the San Francisco Chronicle. I suggest to you that the reporter has been assigned to follow this story & to investigate all leads that he may dig up regarding any of the primary characters in this sordid affair.
Would you lend more credence to this grand jury leak if it were reported exclusively by the Hartford Courant or NY Times?
no matter how you look at it Bonds Giambi and the rest of the cheaters have Tarnished the Game. In my opinion worse than that of Pete Rose or even the 1919 Black Sox. Bonds has upset many creditable records that have been accomplished by legimate ballplayers.Bud Selig better take a strong stance on whatever is done but of course hell be as weak as ever and sit on his *** and do nothing as usual
dbg
Forget the bias aspect--I have none-- I only know what I see
I only see info that was supposed to be sealed now being leaked to the same newspaper every time the ugly story rears its head
The Hartford Courant is no prize package either--they got a governor ousted for a $1500 roof job and then went after others and got egg on their face
Forget the bias aspect--I have none-- I only know what I see
I only see info that was supposed to be sealed now being leaked to the same newspaper every time the ugly story rears its head
The Hartford Courant is no prize package either--they got a governor ousted for a $1500 roof job and then went after others and got egg on their face
Trhit,
It sounds like you will be one of the last people to think Bonds did steroids. It’s still a free country and that certainly is your pejorative.
However, when you say, “last time I looked it up steroids did not improve a batters eye sight nor does it improve his ability to hit the ball” you are wrong or trying to parse words.
Why do you think hitters do the stuff? It surely is not to get their face puffy, get acne and risk the chance of dieing a slow death like Lyle Alzado.
You say it doesn’t improve the ability to hit the ball yet statistics prove otherwise. It sure seemed to help Giambi.
Do you agree that increased strength can help your ability to hit the ball? Do you agree that increased strength when related to hitting generally refers to increased bat speed? Do you agree that increased bat speed improves your ability to hit the ball?
The fact is that steroids can help hitters and did help hitters. Get the eraser or asterisks out. Baseball’s dirty little secret is going to be not so secret and although baseball may take a short term hit and cheating players will be exposed, history will show that we did what’s right to preserve the sanctity of the greatest game in the world.
It sounds like you will be one of the last people to think Bonds did steroids. It’s still a free country and that certainly is your pejorative.
However, when you say, “last time I looked it up steroids did not improve a batters eye sight nor does it improve his ability to hit the ball” you are wrong or trying to parse words.
Why do you think hitters do the stuff? It surely is not to get their face puffy, get acne and risk the chance of dieing a slow death like Lyle Alzado.
You say it doesn’t improve the ability to hit the ball yet statistics prove otherwise. It sure seemed to help Giambi.
Do you agree that increased strength can help your ability to hit the ball? Do you agree that increased strength when related to hitting generally refers to increased bat speed? Do you agree that increased bat speed improves your ability to hit the ball?
The fact is that steroids can help hitters and did help hitters. Get the eraser or asterisks out. Baseball’s dirty little secret is going to be not so secret and although baseball may take a short term hit and cheating players will be exposed, history will show that we did what’s right to preserve the sanctity of the greatest game in the world.
What happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? What happened to 'pull the other one, it's got bells on'!
The 'plausible deniability' line doesn't wash with me either. These are athletes; their body is, obviously, their instrument. To suggest that any of them actually believed that they were being given 'nutritional supplements' would mean they not only didn't ask questions, but that they were somehow unaware of the existence of steroids. Wouldn't it follow logically? "This stuff gives you an edge", "improves performance", "builds muscle" --- what?! An honest, clean athlete wouldn't ask specifically if it contained steroids?
rz has it right: we'll never know what kind of hitter Bonds, for example, would have been. Would he have lasted this long? Would he have had warning track power only?
But he does put bums in seats, and that, really, is the point. And we know he needs the money -- remember when he took his ex back to court to reduce her alimony during the strike because of 'hardship'. Gotta love the guy.
Of course most of us here would like to see a hard line and some radical consequences for drug use in MLB. We have sons with dreams, sons we don't want to see playing roulette with their bodies OR having to compete with 'enhanced' players.
The 'plausible deniability' line doesn't wash with me either. These are athletes; their body is, obviously, their instrument. To suggest that any of them actually believed that they were being given 'nutritional supplements' would mean they not only didn't ask questions, but that they were somehow unaware of the existence of steroids. Wouldn't it follow logically? "This stuff gives you an edge", "improves performance", "builds muscle" --- what?! An honest, clean athlete wouldn't ask specifically if it contained steroids?
rz has it right: we'll never know what kind of hitter Bonds, for example, would have been. Would he have lasted this long? Would he have had warning track power only?
But he does put bums in seats, and that, really, is the point. And we know he needs the money -- remember when he took his ex back to court to reduce her alimony during the strike because of 'hardship'. Gotta love the guy.
Of course most of us here would like to see a hard line and some radical consequences for drug use in MLB. We have sons with dreams, sons we don't want to see playing roulette with their bodies OR having to compete with 'enhanced' players.
This is not my opinion but that of a sports reporter from the NY Times regarding the use of steroids in sports.
FANS in general DON'T CARE. Especially in the game of baseball. They don't care how one gets it over the fence, they want more excitement in the game.
Until the public shows their disgust over what has happened, there will be no changes. You can bet your bottom dollar once fans stop showing up, something will be done about it asap!
FANS in general DON'T CARE. Especially in the game of baseball. They don't care how one gets it over the fence, they want more excitement in the game.
Until the public shows their disgust over what has happened, there will be no changes. You can bet your bottom dollar once fans stop showing up, something will be done about it asap!
SBK
If you re-read my posts I siad I am not arguing yes or now for any of the players so do put words in my mouth
Now your other points:
01-- they do it to get stronger--that does not necessarily make the bat quicker
02-- in my mind he was never a complete or great player
03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY
04--IMO increased bat speed does not necessarily help your ability to hit the ball-- your natural physical ability does that-- I firmly belive that hitters are born not made or created
As you say we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs--I just don't believe you condemn a man with no FACTS AND PROOF-- yes there are clouds but behind them is sunshine
If you re-read my posts I siad I am not arguing yes or now for any of the players so do put words in my mouth
Now your other points:
01-- they do it to get stronger--that does not necessarily make the bat quicker
02-- in my mind he was never a complete or great player
03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY
04--IMO increased bat speed does not necessarily help your ability to hit the ball-- your natural physical ability does that-- I firmly belive that hitters are born not made or created
As you say we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs--I just don't believe you condemn a man with no FACTS AND PROOF-- yes there are clouds but behind them is sunshine
quote:
03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY
04--IMO increased bat speed does not necessarily help your ability to hit the ball-- your natural physical ability does that-- I firmly belive that hitters are born not made or created
TR you are absolutely right about this stuff, it will not help him hit the ball..... he already had that ability, that's why he is in the big leagues to begin with. He demonstrated the ability to hit the ball in high school, college, in the minors, and even in the show when called up.
We all know that it doesn't magically help you hit the ball, if that were the case, give me Conte's number I'll call him today, and be signed as a 31 year old DH by Feb.
I heard Rob Dibble make that excuse, and it took me all night to get up off the floor from laughing so hard, you see although I like to hear Rob on the Dan Patrick Show, it showed just how misinformed he was.
Even the sun shines on a dogs butt, once in a while.
TR,
First, I plead guilty to possessing a law degree. (There goes what little remains of my reputation....)
Assuming Bonds did testify to the Grand Jury that he used the two substances, that's proof enough for me that he did so and a grand jury indictment isn't necessary to establish that. As for the issue of leaks, I agree that confidential testimony should stay that way and sincerely hope that the party leaking information gets legally fried, BUT, if Bonds did testify that he used the two items, then he has been lying to the public for a long, long time. The fact that his lie was exposed through someone else's criminal act does not change the fact that he has lied and lied again.
I agree he is one heck of a hitter and have been amazed at how well he hits, especially considering how carefully most pitchers try to be with him, but whether we like it or not, the steroids have laid upon him a permanent stain. He will never enjoy the universal respect or admiration enjoyed by so many of the greats-Mays, McCovey, Koufax, Walter Johnson, etc., and that's a legacy that he has created. It is indeed sad, but people make bad decisions all the time, and sometimes they come back in spades. A decision by Bonds, for reasons only he knows, to try chemical enhancements to his already considerable skills, can't be ignored or down-played. He no doubt aspires to be considered the greatest baseball player of all time. It won't happen, not now, not ever. Ruth, Cobb, and all those guys were far from saints, real far in fact, but I'm not aware of any allegation that they tried to cheat the game.
Had steroids been around in that era, who knows what might've happened.
First, I plead guilty to possessing a law degree. (There goes what little remains of my reputation....)
Assuming Bonds did testify to the Grand Jury that he used the two substances, that's proof enough for me that he did so and a grand jury indictment isn't necessary to establish that. As for the issue of leaks, I agree that confidential testimony should stay that way and sincerely hope that the party leaking information gets legally fried, BUT, if Bonds did testify that he used the two items, then he has been lying to the public for a long, long time. The fact that his lie was exposed through someone else's criminal act does not change the fact that he has lied and lied again.
I agree he is one heck of a hitter and have been amazed at how well he hits, especially considering how carefully most pitchers try to be with him, but whether we like it or not, the steroids have laid upon him a permanent stain. He will never enjoy the universal respect or admiration enjoyed by so many of the greats-Mays, McCovey, Koufax, Walter Johnson, etc., and that's a legacy that he has created. It is indeed sad, but people make bad decisions all the time, and sometimes they come back in spades. A decision by Bonds, for reasons only he knows, to try chemical enhancements to his already considerable skills, can't be ignored or down-played. He no doubt aspires to be considered the greatest baseball player of all time. It won't happen, not now, not ever. Ruth, Cobb, and all those guys were far from saints, real far in fact, but I'm not aware of any allegation that they tried to cheat the game.
Had steroids been around in that era, who knows what might've happened.
quote:
Until the public shows their disgust over what has happened, there will be no changes. You can bet your bottom dollar once fans stop showing up, something will be done about it asap!
So, it's all about the dollar. If they're looking to make MLB more exciting...there's more that could be done. Move the fences in...move the mound back...make a strike out be four strikes...etc. Where are we going? Professional wrestling is fake and the public goes to watch it. So what?
I am disgusted!
TR,
Your philosophy regarding strength and hitting is counter to conventional wisdom. Most players and coaches seem to think that lifting weights can make them stronger. Most hitters believe increased strength can mean a quicker bat.
A lot of us even believe a quicker bat can improve one’s ability to hit a ball.
Science shows that lifting weights can make you stronger. Science also tells us that taking certain steroids can also make you stronger.
If you are right when you emphatically write, “03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY” then not only are few hitters uselessly using steroids, but millions of players are wasting their time and causing themselves pain by lifting weights, all for trying to become stronger so they can improve their ability to hit the ball.
Another attempt at a seemingly simple question, would you expect a hitter should be able to improve his ability to hit the ball if he increased his strength?
Your philosophy regarding strength and hitting is counter to conventional wisdom. Most players and coaches seem to think that lifting weights can make them stronger. Most hitters believe increased strength can mean a quicker bat.
A lot of us even believe a quicker bat can improve one’s ability to hit a ball.
Science shows that lifting weights can make you stronger. Science also tells us that taking certain steroids can also make you stronger.
If you are right when you emphatically write, “03--increased strength has nothing to do with ability to hit the ball--NO WAY” then not only are few hitters uselessly using steroids, but millions of players are wasting their time and causing themselves pain by lifting weights, all for trying to become stronger so they can improve their ability to hit the ball.
Another attempt at a seemingly simple question, would you expect a hitter should be able to improve his ability to hit the ball if he increased his strength?
Do roids help you hit the ball? NO
Do Roids help you hit the ball farther? YES
Comparison:
You got a car with 100 horsepower engine
The car runs and drives fine.
Now you take that same car and replace the motor with a 400 horsepower engine.
The car still runs and drives fine, but now much faster.
Just my opinion
CV
Do Roids help you hit the ball farther? YES
Comparison:
You got a car with 100 horsepower engine
The car runs and drives fine.
Now you take that same car and replace the motor with a 400 horsepower engine.
The car still runs and drives fine, but now much faster.
Just my opinion
CV