Andy Oliver Case Decided

I believe his former agent/lawyer/advisor was trying to collect a six figure legal fee. The decision means a player can now have "legal" representation when negotiating with MLB.

Can't wait to see how the NCAA spins responds to this.

Now it's going to go to the civil phase, where Oliver is seeking damages from the NCAA. This could be huge. I've heard some speak to the issue that it would force the NCAA into evaluating fairness in rules and rulings it hands down for fear of losing litigation.

Bear in mind this is a state law issue. What happens there is not binding in other states, even if it does hold up on appeal, which it very well may not.

I seriously doubt the NCAA will back down. That would be so unlike them to admit they were in the wrong and take the needs of others into account.

More info from AP wire:

Oklahoma State pitcher Andrew Oliver was reinstated to the team on Thursday when an Ohio judge tossed out an NCAA rule that prevents college baseball players from hiring advisers who are in direct contact with big league clubs.

Oliver filed a lawsuit after he was ruled ineligible. The NCAA suspended him last spring because it said advisers he had hired listened in on contract negotiations after he was drafted by the Minnesota Twins in June 2006.

Baseball players -- unlike those in football and basketball -- can be drafted before they've entered college, forcing many to retain advisers who can help them with negotiations. NCAA rules prevent those advisers from having direct contact with big league clubs.

Erie County Common Pleas Judge Tygh Tone ruled that the NCAA shouldn't restrict a player's right to have legal help when negotiating a big league contract.

An NCAA rule that allows players to hire a lawyer but prohibits them from negotiating a contract is impossible to enforce and allows for the player to be exploited, Tone said in his ruling filed in Sandusky.

"It all boils down to the attorney being skilled, proficient and simply having the know how to represent the best interests of his client," the judge said.

The NCAA said in a statement that it was disappointed in the ruling and intends to seek review by a higher court.

"The bylaws related to agent relationships are important principles our colleges and universities have established to protect and preserve amateurism standards," the statement said.

A message seeking comment was left Thursday with Oliver's attorney, Richard Johnson.

Oliver was drafted three years ago following his senior season at Vermilion High School, which is midway between Cleveland and Toledo.

His former advisers, Tim and Robert Baratta, were at a meeting between Oliver and Twins officials when they discussed a potential contract.

That meeting led to Oliver's suspension from Oklahoma State last spring and his lawsuit.

Oliver and his father testified that the advisers were at the meeting because neither of them knew enough to negotiate a professional contract.

Oliver's attorneys argued that the advisers had every right to be at that meeting because they were supposed to be looking out for his best interests.

Richard Karcher, a former sports agent who now heads the Center for Law and Sports at Florida Coastal University, testified that it was commonly known that most top prospects have an agent or adviser who helps them negotiate deals when they are drafted.

The 21-year-old Oliver is projected to be a first-round pick in this year's amateur draft. The left-hander played on the 2008 USA national team, and he went 7-2 with a 2.20 ERA for Oklahoma State last season.

His suspension came last spring, just before the top-seeded Cowboys were to play in an NCAA tournament regional game, and it may have cost his team a shot at the College World Series.

The NCAA told Oliver he must sit out 70 percent of Oklahoma State's games this season. His reinstatement will be a huge boost for the Cowboys who start the season Feb. 20.

Yet to be determined is Oliver's request for monetary damages from the NCAA. A jury could begin hearing that case in the coming weeks.

The NCAA has suspended only a handful of baseball players over the last decade for allowing their advisers to contact baseball clubs during negotiations.

Jeremy Sowers, who now pitches in the Cleveland Indians organization, had to sit out six games at Vanderbilt in 2002 after his representatives talked with Cincinnati Reds officials who had drafted him out of high school.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I seriously doubt the NCAA will back down. That would be so unlike them to admit they were in the wrong and take the needs of others into account.

That sounds remarkably similar to our narcissistic and psychotic former Governor, Rod Bigliarvich. Wow, small world.

Good summary on Baseball America

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/college/?p=746#more-746

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Bear in mind this is a state law issue. What happens there is not binding in other states, even if it does hold up on appeal, which it very well may not.

Midlo,
Are you saying that the NCAA rule forbidding agents to represent players in negotiations with pro clubs, would only be exempt in Ohio, but all other states would have to abide by the rule?

If that were the case, wouldn't all serious negotiations take place in Ohio where the NCAA couldn't enforce?

#1- Of the players drafted in the 50 rounds, most do not have advisors. So this is mainly an issue that affects only the "top-end". I have a feeling Oliver is only a pawn and behind the curtain you will find a plethora of MLB agents licking their chops and driving this lawsuit. As much as many dislike the NCAA, it is their job to protect the entire student/athlete body while under their umbrella.

Don't most advisors negotiate with teams and when the players signs with a team they also sign that advisor as their agent and he he then receives a cut of that negotiated bonus. In essence he was paid for his negotiating services after the contract was signed, and after he bacame the official agent.

If this is the case I have just as many problems with blood sukking attorneys as I do for the NCAA.

Let's get real. There is no way, shape or form in which the NCAA rule helps players either individually or as a group. Baloney.

What it does is say, you can negotiate alone but not with professional/knowledgeable help. If you don't get help, the MLB team has the advantage of superior knowledge in any discussions. But once you actually get help, you are no longer an amateur, so you lose all the leverage you had in the negotiation in the first place. A classic "Catch 22" situation.

The only guys getting fat off this are MLB teams, which are helped in getting kids to sign for less than they should have. What the NCAA's interest in that is, who knows. I wonder sometimes if they take money from or are otherwise influenced by MLB.

As for the effect of the ruling, I'm simply saying this. If the same case came up again in a Virginia court, the court here may or may not follow the Ohio court's precedent. The Ohio court is interpreting the law of the state of Ohio, which may be different from that of any other given state.

The danger here is that we end up with a patchwork of rules. Which invites Congress to step in and create one set of rules nationally.

If anyone can screw this up worse than the NCAA, it would be Congress.

I agree with rz, most don't have advisor/agents or need one.
As much as I don't always agree with the NCAA, they need to protect all players.

The one thing that I don't like, was that the NCAA was a bit too harsh on Oliver who got caught with a greedy agent (s). Those are the ones who caused all of this, not the NCAA. His former advisor went after him for payment for helping to negotiate a fee (acting as an agent) but got ticked because he turned interest to Boras. That is just horrible. But some may argue where was the loyalty when he went off to college, once he became talk of first round draft choice, he wanted someone who could get him the most $$. Then Oliver had to take them to court. It was too out in the open.

This is just another example of baseball greed. I don't buy that the player and his family had no knowledge of what they were doing (having an agent sit in on negotiations). I don't think that you can blame MLB either.

Is it ok for an advisor to discuss the high school player with MLB clubs prior to the draft?

As I read the case, Andy had an advisor who was an attorney. The NCAA rules say your advisor cannot be in direct contact with the team that drafts you. Andy's advisor claims that as an attorney, he has an obligation to represent his client to the best of his ability and that means meeting with the team. He argues that the NCAA has no right to interfere in the attorney client relationship.

I am not an attorney - but I think Andy and his attorney have a point. In my own life, if I were negotiating a new job and it was going to pay millions of dollars, and I had to sign a contract, I would hire an attorney to review that contract. No different than any other major financial transaction. After all, the team has attorneys on their side, why should a 18 year old kid not be able to have effective representation as well?

I am not sure but doesn't the NCAA allow a player to have an attorney but not an attorney/agent?

Anyone know?

The rules are clear cut, but often broken, if you want to negotiate, do it on the phone with your advisor/agent/attorney next to you. Sitting down with a team face to face is a no no.

Here is another opinion/description that says it better than I can:

quote:

"...young men just out of high school and college have been at an extreme disadvantage as they've tried to negotiate contracts. And the NCAA hasn't made this any easier. Until yesterday, if a high school or college player retained legal counsel, to help them sort through their drafting team's offer, to double-check the contract to make sure it really was in the player's best interest (basically hiring an agent, but not paying them), they lost their college eligibility. In other words, 18-22 year old kids were expected to negotiate with grown men with 20+ years of experience in baseball. While "advisors" were allowed to have contact with the kids, they were not allowed to communicate in any way with the ballclub. That system, with its arbitrary distinctions and half-baked rules, makes absolutely no sense to The Common Man.

from http://the0common0man.blogspot.com/2009/02/agents-of-change.html

The Cowboys are still shakin in their boots

08dad,
The milb contract is basic and never changes. It's not the contract you are negotiating but a signing bonus added as an addendum. The milb contract is available to everyone to see before they sign. It is delivered to you the next day after you are drafted in person or by Fedex. The player has time to read it over (by August 15th) and get explanation by an attorney or agent if one needs clarification. It's teh same for everyone. No matter what you want changed in the basic contract, it ain't happening. This is what we are offering to you, you take it or negotiate for more $$ and you do not, IMO, need an attorney or agent in a room to help you do that. That's just my opinion. If the NCAA allowed this to happen, only those able to afford the best will have an advantage. In reality, the more the first pick gets, for some teams, that means a lower pick may get less.

It is when a player has an opportunity to negotiate for a MLB contract one needs major help. That is complicated, and those that are at that level will not set foot on campus anyway.

Most agents will not talk to anyone unless they feel they will make them big bucks someday. Many don't care about what they get when players sign out of HS or college, that's pocket change to many. What they want is the player that will someday bring a huge MLB contract. What both want is to develop a relationship that will someday bring rewards to both.



JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I am not sure but doesn't the NCAA allow a player to have an attorney but not an attorney/agent?

Of course a player is allowed to have an attorney! Any individual, including prospective student athletes, may find themselves in a situation that requires an attorney.


However, the NCAA seems to take the ridiculous position that if a player would benefit from having an attorney present during talks with a pro team, then the talks have progressed to the point that the player is no longer an amateur.

12.3.2 Legal Counsel. Securing advice from a lawyer concerning a proposed professional sports contract shall not be considered contracting for representation by an agent under this rule, unless the lawyer also represents the individual in negotiations for such a contract.
12.3.2.1 Presence of a Lawyer at Negotiations. A lawyer may not be present during discussions of a contract offer with a professional organization or have any direct contact (in person, by telephone or by mail) with a professional sports organization on behalf of the individual. A lawyer’s presence during such discussions is considered representation by an agent.

Thanks 3FG.

I don't take the stand that a player should not have help in negotiating but be smart about what you do and who you do it with. Once you decide you will go pro, than things get easier, but out of HS with the possibility of going to school, you have to be smart.

3FG:

As a followup question - what would happen if the player's parent were an agent or an attorney? Let's say Scott Boras's kid threw 95 from the left side

Is there an exception for parents? What about Uncles/Aunts?

Is it ok for an advisor to discuss a high school player on the player's behalf with MLB clubs prior to the draft? For example, can an advisor tell the MLB club(s) that the player wants to go to school?

12.2.4.3 Negotiations. An individual may request information about professional market value without affecting his or her amateur status. Further, the individual, his or her legal guardians or the institution’s professional sports counseling panel may enter into negotiations with a professional sports organization without the loss of the individual’s amateur status. An individual who retains an agent shall lose amateur status.

So Scott Boras' son is in good shape as long as he doesn't pay his dad!

If an advisor enters into discussion with a pro team on behalf of a player, the NCAA deems him to be an agent, which is a no-no. However, in the real world, the advisor to any player who is close to being eligible and good enough to be a high draft pick will probably violate this rule.

As an example, for a college freshman who is very good, an advisor only needs to advise, because there won't be any negotiations in the near term. During the player's junior year, I think most advisors will begin to interact (perhaps indirectly) with pro teams.

FWIW,
Scott B's son was drafted by the Cardinals (his father's drafting team) and advised to go to college.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
During the player's junior year, I think most advisors will begin to interact (perhaps indirectly) with pro teams.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

If an advisor enters into discussion with a pro team on behalf of a player, the NCAA deems him to be an agent, which is a no-no. However, in the real world, the advisor to any player who is close to being eligible and good enough to be a high draft pick will probably violate this rule.

Here is a "real world" example, with Boras involved:

Maronde

From the article:

Then something unexpected happened. Maronde told them all that he wanted to go to college. He wanted to push the guaranteed millions of dollars to the backburner. The idea of developing for at least three years was the route he wanted to go.

His advisor was Scott Boras, who represents Major League Baseball stars such as Alex Rodriguez, Mark Teixeira and Manny Ramirez. He is known throughout baseball as an agent who bargains hard and usually gets what he wants for those players he represents.

“He just kept me up to date with the different options I had,” Maronde said. “He asked me what I wanted to do, and I always told him I wanted to go to school. He relayed that message to (the MLB teams).”

3FG you hit the nail on the head. Once a player knows he's headed out, rules are often broken.

HS players drafted have the same rules to play by but need to play it differently, carefully. Only those going to sign usually take more risks. All players are informed of rules by their advisors and the NCAA.

Personally and this is just my opinion, I think the player was going to sign, but things didn't go their way. I can't see any legit agent sitting down with a team to negotiate when he knows the player could lose eligibility. That's bad for business.

I think the problem may be between former agent and player, not player and the NCAA. The NCAA just should have taken it a bit easier, as they have done to those in the past.

Good decision on Maronde's part. I can relate.

quote:

He just kept me up to date with the different options I had,” Maronde said. “He asked me what I wanted to do, and I always told him I wanted to go to school. He relayed that message to (the MLB teams).

A couple things.

1. I hope this kid stays injury free in his college days. While I'm a believer in a college education I am also a realist of "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" in regard to taking good offer. I will never be convinced that college coach is the main reason to turn down millions of dollars. It makes no sense . Which brings me to my next issue.

2. Boras I'm sure had more than an idea from direct contact of what the bonus would be be from a variety of teams. Obviously teams did not think as much of his clients worth as he did and as a result the Maronde family and Boras decided to take the risk and go after the pot of gold on a different day.

IMHO