Another silly scoring question

Not silly at all. Pretty common. But it sounds like to me that your son is right. From the information you provided I would say he was 1 for 4 with a double and his on base percentage would be .250 unless the official scored thought otherwise. The rules state:
It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder’s legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer’s judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.

While he did reach base all four times his on base percentage (OB %) would be .250 for the game.
(f) On-base percentage, divide the total of hits, all bases on balls, and hit by pitch by the total of at bats, all bases on balls, hit by pitch and sacrifice flies.

The purpose of stats in these cases is to ensure parents (like you and my wife) understand that mistakes by the other team should not be construed as an accomplishment.

From your description, the one down the LF line would probably be scored a double. The one in the infield is probably an error. But you have to see the plays yourself to make a judgment like that.

From the player's view: two hits
From the player's mother's view: two hits
From the player's coaches view: 1 hit, 1 error
From pitcher's parents' view: two errors, and bench somebody out there-NOW!
From player's team's scorekeeper, if he's a "homer": two hits

Sounds like at least a hit and an error, maybe two hits. There's no official designation for "infield #!****!", where 3 infielders converge, they all stop, and nobody catches it. (But the pitcher's father should be allowed penance-free venting for a few seconds)

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From pitcher's parents' view: two errors, and bench somebody out there-NOW!

Priceless!!!

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From the player's mother's view: two hits

Tee hee heee,....this made me chuckle!!!
No wonder they never ask me to be the scorekeeper!! HA!!!

From the coaches viewpoint--they were not outs

In these cases, who gets charged with the errors?
Closest fielder?

When does the sun come into play? It was a midday game, bright and sunny in CA.

Hokie, what is it from the players father's point of view? I say dammit.

Funny, but the parents around me of course say, he just missed it, it would have gone 500 ft. if he had nailed it square on.

The rule says 'fielded with ordinary effort', so the error goes to whichever fielder should have made the catch. The other guys showing up are just audience.

I'm a nasty, evil scoring person and have trouble with the amount of times 'lost it in the sun' is invoked, particluarly when the player is neither wearing sunglasses nor has he raised his glove as a shield. "Lost it in the sun" can be used as a convenient way to explain "had no idea where it was off the bat".

From the fathers' points of view? It was "I would have easily caught that when I played!"


Dooer --- isn't that true of pretty much any strike thrown? It would have gone 500 ft if he nailed it. I mean, that's pretty much the definition of Nailed It!

One of the key factors in the decision (IMHO), and one that is overlooked, is the defensive player(s) involved. Sometimes we look at a play and say it shoulda been made. Unfortunately we are comparing the particular defensive player to a much better player when making the judgement. I saw a kid get a couple of cheap hits over this past weekend that a "better quality" defensive player would have made, but these particular players didn't. One was a blooper down the line with three players converging, but none taking charge. It's a hit. Tough luck to the unfortunate pitcher. That's baseball.

You can't compare what Andrew Jones or Brooks Robinson would have done. If, as scorekeepers, that is what we base our decision on, then we are wrong. This is why they are known as "CHEAP HITS". They are still hits. Just like a Gary Sheffield-ish smashed liner that is snagged by a leaping SS is still an out.

That's true, Jax. It's also true that a player known for his D can suffer unfair errors. When my son was in Little League, we used to call them Ozzie Smith Errors, from the times when Ozzie would get a glove on a ball but deflect it or bobble it and not get the out. Some scorers would give him an error....when pretty much any other SS wouldn't have gotten near enough to the ball for a play to be a possibility.

That's were the judgement on "ordinary effort" is supposed to come in.

jaxn ...

I agree with what you have said regarding the player ability, which goes closely IMHO with what Orlando quoted regarding 'ordinary effort'. And quite often, a defensive player is charged with an error for a play that most likely would not have ended in an out because of the difficulty of the play.

Regarding 'cheap hits' ... since those are the only kind my son gives up, I understand completely.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
From the coaches viewpoint--they were not outs

Excellant Point. It may not have been pretty, but he was standing on base with the potential to score

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Originally posted by Fungo:
Not silly at all. Pretty common. But it sounds like to me that your son is right. From the information you provided I would say he was 1 for 4 with a double and his on base percentage would be .250 unless the official scored thought otherwise. The rules state:
It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder’s legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer’s judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.

While he did reach base all four times his on base percentage (OB %) would be .250 for the game.
(f) On-base percentage, divide the total of hits, all bases on balls, and hit by pitch by the total of at bats, all bases on balls, hit by pitch and sacrifice flies.

The purpose of stats in these cases is to ensure parents (like you and my wife) understand that mistakes by the other team should not be construed as an accomplishment.

I’m sure not lookin’ to start wars over the rules, nor am I out to make someone look bad, but I believe its extremely important that when someone quotes a rule, they need to also quote what rule set it came from. Also, when someone asks a question, they really need to say what level of ball they’re talking about.

FI, the two rules Fungo quoted were real rules, but they certainly weren’t HS(NFHS) rules, they were OBR. HS doesn’t play under OBR, nor does an OBR rule “trump” an NFHS rule if its an NFHS sanctioned game.

For Dooer, the answer can be more than a little bit difficult. The rules covering errors are NFHS rule 2-12 and 9-5.

Personally, unless I’m absolutely, positively certain I can single one player out above all the others, chances are I’d mark it as a team error. FI, in yesterday’s game, a batter hit a high pop up between the plate and the mound. The P went over, the 3B came in, and the C was there too, but no one called the ball. the ball dropped about 3’ from the P, and about 5’ from both the C and 3B. Any one of them could have taken a step and stuck out his glove and got the ball, but it fell right between them all.

I really don’t like to pop a P with errors unless he really deserves it, and in my mind, even though he was the closest, somebody should have taken him off the hook for this one. But who do I pop? Its easy, I pop the team and let the coach take care of the brain farts at the next practice. That way the P doesn’t get nailed for an ER if the runner scores.

Further, this exact situation is in the NFHS Casebook under 9.5.5 SITUATION B: B1 hits a pop-up behind second base that could easily be caught by either F4 or F6. The ball is not caught. RULING: Since the ball could have been caught, it is a team error and not a hit.

If things were as you indicated for the ball down the LF line that dropped, it too would be called an error. But, if the players had to all run say 60-90’ to get there, even if they had a lot of time to do that, I doubt I’d have called it a play that could have been made with “ORDINARY” effort, even though the NFHS book doesn’t have that requirement.

Sorry Fungo, but the rule you quoted for OBP was also OBR. Rule 10.22(f), and before last year when NFHS changed it, which I’m proud to say I had a hand in, HS OBP was computed differently from OBR.

The rule is NFHS rule 9-3-d. on-base percentage, which is the number of hits, walks and hit by pitch divided by the number of official at-bats, walks, hit by pitch and sacrifice flies).

Before it was changed, it included ALL sacrifices. My buddy and I caught that when we saw the OBP MaxPreps was computing was different than what we were computing using the same numbers, but the formula out of OBR.

I’m certainly not knocking anyone because I think its great people at least look in a rule book, even if it’s the wrong one. At lower levels, people will normally just spew what they “think” is correct, and that’s how misunderstandings get started.

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Originally posted by Dooer:
My son, a Sr. in HS, hit two major league popups that both fell untouched and he reached 2nd base. One was down the line in left, which I assume is a double, though at least 3 players had plenty of time to get under it. It landed at least 10 feet from the nearest player. Sun may have been a factor...What is the ruling on these balls? My son thinks that they should be errors.

As I learned this summer, while watching Chris Duncan flub 3 "easy" balls in LF and not be charged with an error, in most cases an OFer has to actually touch the ball for him to be credited with an error. If he doesn't actually touch the ball, even if he completely misplays it, he won't necessarily be charged with an error.

All of this reflects the problem with the concept and current definition of an error.

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Originally posted by Orlando:
The rule says 'fielded with ordinary effort', so the error goes to whichever fielder should have made the catch. The other guys showing up are just audience.

I'm a nasty, evil scoring person and have trouble with the amount of times 'lost it in the sun' is invoked, particluarly when the player is neither wearing sunglasses nor has he raised his glove as a shield. "Lost it in the sun" can be used as a convenient way to explain "had no idea where it was off the bat".

From the fathers' points of view? It was "I would have easily caught that when I played!"


Dooer --- isn't that true of pretty much any strike thrown? It would have gone 500 ft if he nailed it. I mean, that's pretty much the definition of Nailed It!

Although the NFHS book says nothing about ORDINARY EFFORT, I believe that’s something that has to be considered by any SK worth his/her salt.

Like you, its pretty rare I’ll allow a ball ‘lost in the sun” to be scored a hit. It does happen that the sun can cause a problem, but not nearly as often as it gets marked. My pet peeve is the THTH(too hot to handle) single where the fielder will give the ball the ol’ OLE`. For my money, the fielder has a much better chance of dodging the “E” bullet if he takes it off his body, or gets real dirty divin’ for it.

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Originally posted by thepainguy:
As I learned this summer, while watching Chris Duncan flub 3 "easy" balls in LF and not be charged with an error, in most cases an OFer has to actually touch the ball for him to be credited with an error. If he doesn't actually touch the ball, even if he completely misplays it, he won't necessarily be charged with an error.

All of this reflects the problem with the concept and current definition of an error.

I was recently talking with a guy who scores for MLB.com, and here is one of his posts. As you can see, more often than not, the issue isn’t “with the concept and current definition of an error”, which there certainly is, but more likely from some kind of other BS.


I deal with Official Scorers all the time. I do Minor League games in close to "real time" on the MILB.com website. The info is funneled to me by stringers who are at the game. Tight budgets and small staffs limit AA and under (the levels I deal with) to only relay play by play info (not pitch by pitch). So, I'm getting running summaries of games (sometimes up to four at one time) via telephone updates or Instant Messenger. Then, I have to translate the events into the proper codes and input them into our software, which then spits out the events, play-by-play and stats on the website.

The Official Scorers are often uncooperative. They are dishonest, too. They are under pressure from their organizations to make whatever rulings are necessary to keep their blue chip pitching prospects' ERAs down. As if the erudite decision makers care; I think Adam Everett gets to more balls than Joe Single A Shortstop...

Say there is a runner on first and the batter launches a double. There are two outs, the guy on first was going with the pitch and he has good speed; he scores easily. Say the RF bobbles the ball in the corner and allows the batter to get to third. Then the next guy pops out. Quite often, the OS will tell me that the run was unearned. Batter doubled and advanced to third on the error, he's giving the runner two bases on the hit and the third on the error. The guy on first obviously didn't need the error to score- but it is the OS's discretion. I've had it out with more than a few...

Some of them just simply don't know the rules. 98% of them have never heard of a "team unearned run." Most of them ask me to tell THEM which runs were earned and which weren't. Most don't know the rules about giving errors to catchers on attempted steals, some of them aren't aware that you can't assume a double play. The worst part is, many of them tell me- I've been doing this for 30 years... My response is usually along the lines of, "I didn't ask you how long you've been misapplying the rule, just requested that you don't do it tonight...

Trust me, SK, don't put these guys on a pedestal. I did until I started working with them. The Major League guys are better- but I'm sure if you've been following the game for decades and you know your stuff- you can hold your own!

There's a lot of "politics" that go on in that booth. In fact, sometimes, a well kept and "independent" scorecard from the stands might actually be a more accurate representation of what happened than the one that appears in the box score...

Scorekeeper,
One thing about it, I ALWAYS play by the rules! Since You and I came up with the same answer, next time I'll just give the answer and let you explain why I'm right.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Scorekeeper,
One thing about it, I ALWAYS play by the rules! Since You and I came up with the same answer, next time I'll just give the answer and let you explain why I'm right.

Well, I’m certainly glad you didn’t call me all kinds of SOBs and tell everyone to put me on their ignore list!

I used to really get all PO’d at the umps, the coaches and the SKs. Like most fans who’d been playing or watching the game f0r 20-30 years, I thought I knew it all. Unfortunately, what I knew was what others like me knew, and not what was necessarily true at all.

Luckily, I’m one of those weirdos who actually read the manuals and instructions, and I found out just how iggerint I was about baseball the 1st time I was scoring a game for my kid’s team, and had a question. The 1st thing I did was ask for a rule book. WRONG! There ain’t a lot of folks in 7& 8 YO rec ball who carry around a rule book!

From then on. I made sure I had my own copy of whatever rule book I was scoring for, and its served me pretty well. Besides helping me get things right, it sure makes it nice to be able to show someone the rule rather than just tell them.

But the truth is, most people don’t really give a flip! At least you took the time to go look it up, and that’s a heck of a lot more than 99.9% of the people out there! I’ll just bet that most folks who looked at the thread won’t remember much about it, other than the next time they see that play, they’ll remember its probably an error. And really, I guess that’s better than nothing.

The folks I feel sorry for are the umps! For me, the rule book doesn’t control all that much, but for them, it’s the entire game. I was talking with one of the umps doing our games yesterday about it, and he said he does games for HS, college, JUCOs, some semi-pro games, a few pro games, adult baseball, girls HS SB, men’s slo pitch and fast pitch, and will do some tournament games for any level if his assn doesn’t have the guys to work the games.

Picture that! Heck, there’s more rule books out there than you can shake a stick at, and they all have subtle little differences that can and do make the difference in games.

And here’s the best part of this whole thing. I’m not even a real knowledgeable guy when it comes to the rules! I pretty much know the things affecting keeping score, but all the little differences like pop up slides and the like, shoot right past me.

I’m hoping to soon have an electronic copy of the NFHS rules, and that will pretty much give me what I need. I’ll have a copy of OBR, NCAA, and NFHS right on my desktop, just a doubleclick away.