Appeal on tag play and dead ball in stands

Nah, he didn't get it wrong. He just made some new rules up to fit the situation.

Batter's out (if he agrees the batter left early) and no run. Period.

How does a batter leave early?

Hey pigbrain,
Reread it. The RUNNER left early. Translated: he left before the ball was caught. Not the batter.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
Hey pigbrain,
Reread it. The RUNNER left early. Translated: he left before the ball was caught. Not the batter.

Uh ref, perhaps YOU should reread it (what you wrote).

OK, OK ... let's get past the bickering here. Seems like a legitimate question; I'd like to hear our umps weigh in on this one.

If the correct ruling is that it was a legitimate appeal (with R3 then being out) ... I'd like to ask this:

Suppose instead of leaving early and running home, R3 had been standing a few feet off the base (in the direction of home) before F7 catches the ball -- and just continues to stand there. If the ball is then thrown into the stands, does the ump wave R3 home?

And if so, does R3 have to go back and re-touch before coming home?

OP: good appeal R3 is out. Ump got it wrong.

If R3 crosses the plate "before" the throw goes OOP he can still retrace tag and score.

If he touches the plate after the ball goes OOP he can not retouch and the appeal is good.

R3 standing a few feet from 3B watching as the ball goes OOP. Yes the umpire will award him HP. Yes he must re-tag 3B or be liable for the appeal. No the ump won't say "you third, then home".

And if the "batter" leaves early and strikes the ball, ring him up, outta the batter's box.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
Nah, he didn't get it wrong. He just made some new rules up to fit the situation.

Batter's out (if he agrees the batter left early) and no run. Period.

Hmmmmm.

The actions allowed the runner depends on the rules set.

In NFHS, if at the moment the ball goes OOP a runner is on or beyond a base in advance of the base he failed to retouch or missed, he cannot return to the base, and is subject to appeal. (8-2-5) The appeal can be made verbally while the ball is dead. So, in FED, if a runner fails to tag up at third, and is on or past the the plate when the ball goes OOP, he cannot correct his error.

In OBR/NCAA, the only prohibition is to not allow the runner to advance to the next base from whatever position he has at the moment the ball goes dead. So even if the runner has scored, and then the ball goes OOP, he is allowed to return to third and retouch, as jjk has already posted.

The rules are applicable for any advance base, not just the plate.

In the OP, apparently the runner did not try to return to third. There are some wrinkles here, too. NCAA 8.6a Approved Ruling implies that he can only return once the ball becomes dead if he was already in the act of returning. "A.R. 3—If the runner is attempting to return to his original base after a fly ball that is caught and the ball is thrown out of play, the runner may retouch and the award is made from his original base."

OBR says (7.05(i) Comment) "If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base." IMO, this implies that the runner need not have been trying to return at the moment the ball goes dead.

Simple, huh?

Very interesting ... so in the scenario where R3 is standing a few feet beyond the base when the throw goes OOP, exactly how does the ump indicate to him that he is awarded another base?

Is it verbal, is it with a hand signal? Obviously he can't tell him that he has to re-touch.

I'm just thinking that most defensive players (and probably coaches), upon seeing an ump somehow indicate to the runner that he's awarded the next base, would then assume that the runner can just head home (even though by rule he has to re-touch).

quote:

Originally posted by RPD:
Is it verbal, is it with a hand signal? Obviously he can't tell him that he has to re-touch.

Points to the runner saying " YOU...SCORE" then pointing to HP

jjk you stated that if the runner has crossed home plate before the ball goes into dead ball territory, he canretrace, tag and score. in my opinion, he cannot if he has not initiated the attempt before the ball goes into dead ball territory.case book 8.2.2situation c

cpttuna,
In the situation we are talking about here --in which home plate is the advance base-- "initiating an attempt to return" is not relevant. If the runner is on home or past it when the ball goes dead, he can't return. See 8-2-5.

The OP situation is analogous to 8.2.2C(a), not (b).

I assume jjk was talking about OBR or derivative rules, since his ruling is correct in those codes.

3 fingered glove. i agree with you. my comment was based on what jjk said in the above post. my reply was based on nfhs rules.