Arguing balls and strikes

I have never had a coach toss himself arguing balls and strikes. In fact, I can't remember ever tossing a head coach during school ball. I've had a few assistant coaches who either were unaware or didn't care that they had no privilege or obligation to share their thoughts with me get the opportunity to warm up the bus early. But head coaches normally know when to quit.

Like Jimmy, I cant say as if I have ever tossed a HS coach for arguing balls and strikes... pretty much every coach at the HS level knows that this is not acceptable and is an ejectable offense....

Im not saying that I dont get the occasional chirp or comment that is not crossing the line a bit....but nothing I cant handle...Again like Jimmy most coaches know where the line is..... and I have missed pitches and the occasional "not a pitch to hit anyway jimmy" doesnt get to me ....If it crosses the line, I stop it...

As I said, it was obvious our coach intended to get himself tossed. He wasn't going ballistic or anything, just complaining aggressively that there is no way those pitches were strikes, and was not backing down til he got tossed.

So my real question is I guess one for coaches more than umps - do you ever get yourself tossed in order to fire up your players, stand up for them, etc.?

A somewhat similar situation happened last fall in football. My son, a nose tackle, was getting chop blocked on play after play. A chop block is totally illegal because it is dangerous. When engaging the offensive lineman, another lineman takes his legs out.

Our coach (the most repsected coach in HS football in Oregon) complained every time it happened. Finally, about the fifth straight time one drive, he went onto the field and directly confronted the ref. He got the unsportsmanlike call .... but the chop blocking magically stopped.

I called him the next day to thank him. He was standing up for my son, and literally protecting my son's health.

While the situation in my son's baseball game was different because there was no injury risk because of the bad B/S calls, it did feel to me somewhat the same, as if the coach was taking a stand for his players.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
A chop block is totally illegal because it is dangerous. When engaging the offensive lineman, another lineman takes his legs out.

While you may very well know what constitutues a chop block, what you described is not necessarily a chop block. There are other considerations.

That is what makes this frustrating for officials. Most coaches do not know the complete rule regarding chop blocks. I hear "That a CHOP BLOCK" from some coaches whenever there is a low block, and from others whenever there are two lineman and a low block.

I have been tossed 1 time in my career. It was in a tournament game in Louisiana. My pitcher hit a batter with a FB that was running in. The batter swung, but the umpire gave him 1B. I went to ask if he had swung and he immediately tossed me for "arguing balls and strikes!"

Balls and strikes are best argued by us fans, who are up in the stands, at least 100' away, watching from the side.

We have the best angle of anyone in the house.

We had a situation in a game last week that involved balls and strikes which has irked me more and more as I continue to think about it.

We had a hitter rung up on a called strike three. The pitch was so low and outside that the catcher had gone down to block the pitch. I didn't argue because what good is that going to do, but it was a horrible call.

After the inning, the plate ump comes over to me and says if so and so wants to stay in the game, he needs to be quiet. He goes on to tell me that after the call the kid said to the ump "Are you kidding me?"

Now, I understand you can't argue balls and strikes, and no matter how bad you think a call is, it's not arguable. However, the more I think about it, the more it P's me off that an ump would not only make such a terrible call, but he would react in such a way to a fairly innocent comment. Maybe from an ump's perspective it's not as innocent. I would have to think most umps realize when they blow a call, as was the case here, but this guy obviously didn't or I think he would have let the comment go.

Normally Balls and Strikes dont' really concern me that much. Most Umps are consistent. Either the zone is High, Low, he's either giving corners or not, or worse case, it's armpit to ankles. I don't let my guys use the Ump as an excuse. I tell 'em to look for THEIR pitch until 2 strikes, then adjust to what the Umpire is calling.

I did however get tossed last year at a Sunday Travel Doubleheader. Ump in question is LEGALLY BLIND (I'm NOT joking). He has since been assigned to only 8u and 9U stuff..and few of those.

So anyway, we're losing the 2nd game of the day. Like 7-1 or something. So one of my guys hits a double. The next guy hits a shot to the OF. The runner from 2nd base comes in to score. The throw is on time, but the catcher is a bit too far up the 3rd base line, and my runner back doors him, slides around the tag, rolls over and hits home plate.

NOW PAY ATTENTION to the EXACT ORDER of what happened....and I'm NOT exaggerating here..

1. Kid slides around tag.
2. Catcher KNOWS he missed him, throws ball back to pitcher.
3. Opposing Coach yells "No problem, it's only 1 run, you're fine."
4. Pitcher gets ready to toe the rubber.
5. "Ump" yells "OUT!!!"

Half of the sunflower seeds in my mouth fell out I'm sure. I'm on the 3rd base, and the opposing coach is in the dugout near me...I hear him say "HUH?"

The CATCHER looks at the UMP and says (Loud enough for myself, and other coaches, parents to HEAR)

"I never tagged him...."

Ump repeats "OUT".

It's the 3rd out. The Opposing team is STILL in their position wondering what is going on.

I approach the Umpire...(still haven't said a word).

This is our exchange

ME: "Blue..can I talk to you for a second."

BLIND MAN: "Back to your dugout Coach."

(Note I approached from 3rrd base, NOT my dugout)

ME: "We can't dicuss that play?"

BLIND MAN: "I'm NOT going to ARGUE WITH YOU!!! Get off MY FIELD before I eject you."

ME: "Really?"

BLIND MAN: "YES!!!"

I start walking TOWARD MY DUGOUT. I have to GO PAST THE UMP to get there.

BLIND MAN: "I SAID GET BACK TO YOUR DUGOUT COACH!!"

ME: "I'm trying. It's over there" (Me pointing)

BLIND MAN: "That's it....you're pushing me."

So I continued to walk to my dugout..as I pass him he mutters

"That's what I thought!!!"

ME: (just loud enough for him to hear)

" you really need to open your eyes Magoo. You're missing a GOOD GAME"

He runs me. Then proceeds to tell me I'm BANNED from the rest of the USSSA League doubleheaders, and the playoffs, and i'm pretty sure he banned me from youth baseball for life somewhere in his tirade.

The League Director approached me (laughing) and said don't worry, I'll see you next Sunday.

At this point BOTH teams and parents and LAUGHING....I mean LAUGHING. I'm gathering my stuff up. The UMPIRE walks towards or dugout and tells the kids to "PIPE DOWN".

I politely tell Mr.Umpire that running me is fine. But if he steps in the dugout and continues to gesture like he is at 11 and 12 year old kids, I'm thinking that two of the Dads in the stands who happen to be members of law enforcement, probably wouldn't be too thrilled with him.

He stutters and walks away.

AS I'm walking to the truck, the opposing coach catches up to me and has this really odd look on his face. He then lets me know that he was trying to keep his mouth shut the entire game...because that Ump was who they were taking to Cooperstown.

I lost some more seeds.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
...because that Ump was who they were taking to Cooperstown.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Rob as a coach, yes we get tossed intentionally. Last year, down 8-1 no emotion flat as could be. We were 2-4 and had a really bad team the following game. We had a young team with little senior help and our best players were sophmores. The coaching staff began to chirp. This umpire would not toss
anyone however. it took until the 6th inning before running me. The classic flip a coin got him. That only got me grounded to the dugout. I had to say his name to officially get thrown. This guy took entirely too much. He absolutley did not want to throw me out. I told him a couple times what
I was tryuing to do. he did not want to believe me though. Probably the old if I have to watch this so do you.

I think most of the time I get tossed it is for this reason. In a normal setting, other than the occasional chirp we do not say much.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
I did however get tossed last year at a Sunday Travel Doubleheader. Ump in question is LEGALLY BLIND (I'm NOT joking). He has since been assigned to only 8u and 9U stuff..and few of those.

Without insulting anyone....since I wear glasses as well.....I have known 2 umpires....one whose nickname is "One Eyed Mike" for obvious reasons... (He really only had one eye)....

And one other guy who when he took off his Coke bottle glasses,....he is really legally blind...but he was a good fair umpire....

quote:

That is what makes this frustrating for officials. Most coaches do not know the complete rule regarding chop blocks.

This is why most umpires, me included, prefer to use the "one legged double hop heave ho", when tossing coaches.. Coaches just don't understand "when I chop block you, that means "your gone".

I've never been tossed for balls and strikes. The main reason why I've been tossed in 16 years of high school coaching is a build up of wrong safe / out / not being in position / lack of rules knowledge stuff.

Overall I don't think getting tossed in high school ball is very effective. I have never seen my team or teams we're playing have dramatic comebacks because the coach got tossed. I don't see the point in not finishing that game and at least another game for sitting out to fire up my players.

That's not to say I haven't been tossed but I never went out there thinking "This will get my boys fired up".

I think that with both coaches getting tossed...after the game I am writing in my post game journal "I SUCKED ON BALLS AND STRIKES MUST IMPROVE" or find another line of work.

quote:

While you may very well know what constitutues a chop block, what you described is not necessarily a chop block. There are other considerations.

Jimmy03: I'm no football expert, but I am pretty sure what I described is definitely a chop block no matter what:

Chop Block (Rule 2-3-3). The definition of the chop block has been simplified to assist in the understanding of this rule and to encourage more consistent officiating. A chop block is now defined as a high-low or low-high combination block by any two players against an opponent (other than the runner) anywhere on the field, with or without a delay between contacts. The “low” component is at the opponent’s thigh or below.

Rob,

If that is what coaches complained about it would be one thing. Most coaches I hear complain about a chop block, believe anytime an opponent cuts his guy then it was illegal.

Also, if the block starts high and then goes low, it is legal, no matter how many times the coach yells.

We were in Florida last week for spring break and had an umpire who was calling strikes after the catcher was bringing the pitch into the strike zone and holding it until he got the call. That's not even framing, it's little league and amateurish on the ump's part. All coaches were chirping and finally the loudest of us was threatened with the heave. He told the ump, "I'm not arguing balls and strikes, I'm questioning your ability to properly officiate the game of baseball at this level." Blue tried to laugh it off like the chucklehead he was. We were down 4-0 and playing against 10 instead of 9. We came back and won 5-4.

Two nights ago at home, we were facing a kid who drew 4 professional scouts. He didn't need help from the umpire but got it. He was calling them low and then not only got an attitude but tried to start some stuff when he thought he heard us complaining.

I never see coaches get tossed here. We usually calm down after a dugout warning.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

While you may very well know what constitutues a chop block, what you described is not necessarily a chop block. There are other considerations.

Jimmy03: I'm no football expert, but I am pretty sure what I described is definitely a chop block no matter what:

Chop Block (Rule 2-3-3). The definition of the chop block has been simplified to assist in the understanding of this rule and to encourage more consistent officiating. A chop block is now defined as a high-low or low-high combination block by any two players against an opponent (other than the runner) anywhere on the field, with or without a delay between contacts. The “low” component is at the opponent’s thigh or below.

As I suggested in my post, I thought you probably knew what a chop block was. However, if you go back and read what you wrote: " When engaging the offensive lineman, another lineman takes his legs out." your definition, as that of most coaches is incomplete. No where did you indicate that this required a high/low or low high combination. Your original description would have included a low/low combination.

I don't mean to be nitpicking, but after dealing years of dealing with coaches who have incomplete knowledge of chop blocks, or none at all, I've become suspect when someone starts to talk about chop blocks.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:


Chop Block (Rule 2-3-3). The definition of the chop block has been simplified to assist in the understanding of this rule and to encourage more consistent officiating. A chop block is now defined as a high-low or low-high combination block by any two players against an opponent (other than the runner) anywhere on the field, with or without a delay between contacts. The “low” component is at the opponent’s thigh or below.

Rob, was this a college game? I ask because you are quoting the NCAA rule.

In Federation, a chop block occurs only when there is a low block at or below the knee of a player that is already being engaged by another blocker. I have not seen the actual foul occur too often in games that I've done.

It is perfectly legal for two offensive linemen to block a defender high and low as long as it is at the same time, or if the there is a delay between blocks, the low block is the first block.

Now it is certainly possible what was happening to your son was illegal, I wasn't there and you were but that is how the rule is. I do find that it is often misunderstood, even by well respected coaches.

To bring this back to basebal, I've yet to toss any coaches for arguing balls or strikes.