Arm Conditioning/ Velocity Program

Coach_TV posted:

Kyle Boddy posted:

This is simply wrong. I work for 5 MLB teams and seven pitchers from one team are currently in Seattle training on the team's dime. The entirety of the Cleveland Indians' minor league teams throw weighted balls; take a look at Goodyear during Spring Training if you don't believe me.

JP Hoornstra wrote about our work with the Dodgers and the results. I've worked for the Astros. You can see verified information in The Arm by Jeff Passan.

Major League pitching coach Brent Strom (and his bullpen coach, Craig Bjornson) are good friends of mine and supporters.

Basically it sounds like you've done zero research into it all before spouting off BS. Maybe consider that next time.

EDIT: By the way, the level that has the most to gain from a weighted ball program is not MLB. It would be their lower-level minor league pitchers to develop tradeable or promotable assets.

EDIT2: Our programs are heavily targeted towards late HS and college/pro arms, not youth pitchers. We train very few youth pitchers. I can't speak for our competition.

What about the Tom House Velocity Plus program - http://velocityplusarmcare.com/

Nolan Ryan and some others seem to be 100% behind this guy, is there anything to it?  I'm not recommending this or anything, just asking if there is anything to it. 

This is clearly anecdotal.  An academy and program in my area did it for one year.  In fact they are listed on the web site.  Had a big presentation.  Lots of people showed up.  The academy teams where going to do it as well as some other players I know.  I heard there were some issues with younger kids -- personally I think they were too young for this type of program.  As far as I know, it didn't stick.  Haven't heard about it for a few years.  It could be the cost as well.  Everything is expensive these days. 

IMO, with all of these programs the reality is that you need to be physically mature enough to handle the work out and you need to have the time and resources to do it.  Many require several days of work per week.  For most kids with school, other sports and activities it just doesn't all come together. 

Kyle Boddy posted:

Steve A. posted:

For me, the weighted baseball issue is boiled down to this: With all of the $$, research & resources available to MLB to examine the effectiveness balanced vs the risk of these programs, the vast majority have said NO to their use.

Who is the target market for these programs? Developing youth players. Developing youth players will see a spike in velocity by simply existing & aging & eating Captain Crunch cereal. Add a velo program & you can measure & see results with this group. Especially when the youth player does virtually no training.

Give me a MLB roster of pitchers who are fully developed adults who train & throw regularly as they do & add this weighted ball program & show me a spike in velocity. It won't happen. You may see a spike in injury. This is why it is not employed at the level that has the most to gain from the "effectiveness" of these programs (MLB).

This is simply wrong. I work for 5 MLB teams and seven pitchers from one team are currently in Seattle training on the team's dime. The entirety of the Cleveland Indians' minor league teams throw weighted balls; take a look at Goodyear during Spring Training if you don't believe me.

JP Hoornstra wrote about our work with the Dodgers and the results. I've worked for the Astros. You can see verified information in The Arm by Jeff Passan.

Major League pitching coach Brent Strom (and his bullpen coach, Craig Bjornson) are good friends of mine and supporters.

Basically it sounds like you've done zero research into it all before spouting off BS. Maybe consider that next time.

EDIT: By the way, the level that has the most to gain from a weighted ball program is not MLB. It would be their lower-level minor league pitchers to develop tradeable or promotable assets.

EDIT2: Our programs are heavily targeted towards late HS and college/pro arms, not youth pitchers. We train very few youth pitchers. I can't speak for our competition.

Last time I checked there were 30 teams. "The vast majority have said no." Learn to read.

Steve A. posted:

Kyle Boddy posted:

Steve A. posted:

For me, the weighted baseball issue is boiled down to this: With all of the $$, research & resources available to MLB to examine the effectiveness balanced vs the risk of these programs, the vast majority have said NO to their use.

Who is the target market for these programs? Developing youth players. Developing youth players will see a spike in velocity by simply existing & aging & eating Captain Crunch cereal. Add a velo program & you can measure & see results with this group. Especially when the youth player does virtually no training.

Give me a MLB roster of pitchers who are fully developed adults who train & throw regularly as they do & add this weighted ball program & show me a spike in velocity. It won't happen. You may see a spike in injury. This is why it is not employed at the level that has the most to gain from the "effectiveness" of these programs (MLB).

This is simply wrong. I work for 5 MLB teams and seven pitchers from one team are currently in Seattle training on the team's dime. The entirety of the Cleveland Indians' minor league teams throw weighted balls; take a look at Goodyear during Spring Training if you don't believe me.

JP Hoornstra wrote about our work with the Dodgers and the results. I've worked for the Astros. You can see verified information in The Arm by Jeff Passan.

Major League pitching coach Brent Strom (and his bullpen coach, Craig Bjornson) are good friends of mine and supporters.

Basically it sounds like you've done zero research into it all before spouting off BS. Maybe consider that next time.

EDIT: By the way, the level that has the most to gain from a weighted ball program is not MLB. It would be their lower-level minor league pitchers to develop tradeable or promotable assets.

EDIT2: Our programs are heavily targeted towards late HS and college/pro arms, not youth pitchers. We train very few youth pitchers. I can't speak for our competition.

Last time I checked there were 30 teams. "The vast majority have said no." Learn to read.

In addition. This is not about "your program." Frankly I don't give a rip about you or "your programs." I'm sure you have helped some people & it looks like you have. Great for you & I wish you continued success. There are countless weighted ball velocity camps & programs all over the country now. One in my area has these kids throwing 12oz weighted balls all winter long with kids as young as 9 years old. It's insane. 3 kids from this camp have been cut on prior to reaching 19 years old.

The best weighted baseball training should consist of this single drill:

Take the weighted ball nearby to a wooded area. Throw it as far into the wooded area as you can & leave it there.

Steve A. posted:

Matt Reiland posted:

The real secret is Cinnamon Toast Crunch, but you have to drink the cinnamon-y milk left in the bowl at the end to see the most benefit.

Regarding the other topic at hand, when you talk of arm conditioning, I would lean pretty heavily towards a long toss program.  I don't really delve into weighted ball programs so I can't speak one way or the other on the effectiveness, but believe in the effectiveness of long toss particularly in the "arm conditioning" realm.

Matt,

Agree but am not an advocate of the "extreme long toss" programs. What is your take?

 Varies by the individual.  Think about it in the same terms as using 95% max weights in the weight room.  There is a time and place.  Someone new to long toss that doesn't have accumulated volume at "medium-long" distances shouldn't jump in and stretch it out as far as possible right off the bat.

Similarly, the middle of the high school season is probably not the time to test out a new max back squat in the weight room.  It's probably also not the time to be stretching long toss out to the absolute max several times a week.

However, for someone in the middle of the off-season, who has been building up the distance over the course of weeks, I can see benefits in terms of arm speed, durability, and overall arm health to doing long toss at near maximal distances as a component of a strength & conditioning program. 

Weighted balls do seem to help with velocity gains.  It's not significant, unless you consider 2-4mph significant.  I'm going to have my pitchers use weighted balls again this year.  They used them sparingly last year.  However, my kids have to hit the weight room before going to weighted balls.  I need to make sure that they have a good base of strength first.  I wouldn't put a kid with no muscle tone on a weighted ball program.  

2018 just started one like the OP attached in original post.  Had a base of 84.6 from the OF Crowhop (not the run and gun)...will be doing it 3 times a week until the first week of December...his goal is to gain 6 on his OF throws and whatever that translates to the mound is a plus...will see how it goes.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Okay, i'll divulge the "Secrets to getting your son to 90+mph"

PBJ, Oatmeal, Chicken Tenders, All meat covered in BBQ Sauce, waffle sandwiches (2 legos with butter) and mashed potatoes and leisure peas.

Seriously, i did consider a weighted ball program once thru an instructor near Atlanta. I talked with him and we never went down that path. I think it works and players see gains....im not sure how much is retained over time?

I think that you meant eggos!

consider that kyle does not only do heavy and light balls but also Lifting, Long toss, band work and throwing very heavy balls of 1-4 pounds (like mike marshall).

the OL UL certainly does have effects but you also would have gains if you leave the OL UL away and just do the rest of kyles program. OL UL is only a part of kyles program, I don't think kyle would recommend just doing OL UL without doing the other conditioning.

Dominik85 posted:

consider that kyle does not only do heavy and light balls but also Lifting, Long toss, band work and throwing very heavy balls of 1-4 pounds (like mike marshall).

the OL UL certainly does have effects but you also would have gains if you leave the OL UL away and just do the rest of kyles program. OL UL is only a part of kyles program, I don't think kyle would recommend just doing OL UL without doing the other conditioning.

2018 does a 3 day lifting program (total body with a qtr mile sprint on treadmill) and daily band work...only thing he doesn't have is the 1-4 pound plyo

Both of my sons are qb's.  They both increased their velocity between their jr and sr years by throwing the football so much during the late summer 7 on 7 and in the fall every day during practice.  I am a firm believer in the football.  Plus, during football season we also have our kids lift three days a week plus lots of leg conditioning.  I'm sure that also plays a huge part.  I get nervous every friday night about injuries but I also have seen how much tougher my kids became after every game.  Physically and mentally.  We put the baseball down in early august and don't pick it up again until the football play-offs are over.  My oldest is a left handed college pitcher/of.  My youngest is a sr c/pitcher.  

Overthehill posted:

Both of my sons are qb's.  They both increased their velocity between their jr and sr years by throwing the football so much during the late summer 7 on 7 and in the fall every day during practice.  I am a firm believer in the football.  

This can't possibly be true, because throwing objects heavier than a baseball causes your arm to get injured.

The epidemic of ucl injuries among NFL starting quarterbacks is all the evidence you need.

I starting researching this many years ago when my son started to pitch. I purchased Dr Bagonzi book probably 14 years  ago (one of the first to do weighted ball studies, he got his PhD on the subject) well before Wolforth developed his current program and have followed Wolforth and Kyle's programs from afar. Fast forward, my son's college program historically has the best pitching staffs in D3 baseball, in part because they are on the leading edge of these types of programs. (don't get me wrong they have a great pitching coach also)

I will add this to the conversation. I have always looked at how sprinters have developed, as for me at least, they have a similar problem. How to get faster and more powerful, without injury. Sprinting development is one of the most finely studied of all athletic activities and has a very long history. Their lifting and speed development is an area I think parallels throwing a baseball. Guess what? They have been doing explosive lifting and under/over weight training for 30+  years. It does not surprise me one bit that baseball throwing is starting to look very similar to sprint training. 

Food for thought:

If you walk in to a Bass Pro, Cabela's, or other outdoor store, and walk over to the bows, you'll most likely see a sign "NO DRY FIRING". Dry firing a bow is pulling back the string and releasing without an arrow on the bow. Dry firing puts too much stress on the limbs of the bow and often damages the bow, hence the warnings about no dry firing. When a bow is fired normally, with an arrow nocked, the arrow absorbs that excess stress, preventing damage to the limbs.

You can probably see where I'm going with this. Liken the bow to an arm, the arrow to a football or weighted ball, and dry firing to throwing with the 5 oz. ball as opposed to a "loaded" arm with a heavier object, and make your own deductions.

Not exactly scientific and data driven, so take it with a grain of salt.

I'm a personal believer in long toss and don't really push for weighted ball programs, but I don't have a problem with weighted baseball programs. FWIW, as a teenager I cut a slit in a tennis ball, stuffed a bunch of pennies in it, and played catch with it to get stronger.

Rob T posted:

Overthehill posted:

Both of my sons are qb's.  They both increased their velocity between their jr and sr years by throwing the football so much during the late summer 7 on 7 and in the fall every day during practice.  I am a firm believer in the football.  

This can't possibly be true, because throwing objects heavier than a baseball causes your arm to get injured.

The epidemic of ucl injuries among NFL starting quarterbacks is all the evidence you need.

Completely different mechanics throwing a football. Also, note how all the college & NFL QB's throw heavy footballs & reach back & long toss footballs with elevated front shoulder to see how far they can throw the football to increase their arm strength............Um, they do none of this because it is junk science & develops mechanics apart from their goals. Perfectly fine for pitchers though......

Rob T, Ha, thanks.  Will talk our offensive coordinator into working on our running game this week.  

Steve A., I'm thinking that 'Rob' was joking.  At least that's how I took it.

Overthehill posted:

Steve A., I'm thinking that 'Rob' was joking.  At least that's how I took it.

If so, my apologies. 

Steve A. posted:

Rob T posted:

Overthehill posted:

Both of my sons are qb's.  They both increased their velocity between their jr and sr years by throwing the football so much during the late summer 7 on 7 and in the fall every day during practice.  I am a firm believer in the football.  

This can't possibly be true, because throwing objects heavier than a baseball causes your arm to get injured.

The epidemic of ucl injuries among NFL starting quarterbacks is all the evidence you need.

Completely different mechanics throwing a football. Also, note how all the college & NFL QB's throw heavy footballs & reach back & long toss footballs with elevated front shoulder to see how far they can throw the football to increase their arm strength............Um, they do none of this because it is junk science & develops mechanics apart from their goals. Perfectly fine for pitchers though......

So, basically you can throw a heavy object as long as you do it with the proper mechanics?

Now if somebody would just figure out how to incorporate both of those things I'm thinking they could create a program that would increase velocity and reduce injuries.

- But that's just those voices in my head doing that crazy talk thing again.

Rob T posted:

Steve A. posted:

Rob T posted:

Overthehill posted:

Both of my sons are qb's.  They both increased their velocity between their jr and sr years by throwing the football so much during the late summer 7 on 7 and in the fall every day during practice.  I am a firm believer in the football.  

This can't possibly be true, because throwing objects heavier than a baseball causes your arm to get injured.

The epidemic of ucl injuries among NFL starting quarterbacks is all the evidence you need.

Completely different mechanics throwing a football. Also, note how all the college & NFL QB's throw heavy footballs & reach back & long toss footballs with elevated front shoulder to see how far they can throw the football to increase their arm strength............Um, they do none of this because it is junk science & develops mechanics apart from their goals. Perfectly fine for pitchers though......

So, basically you can throw a heavy object as long as you do it with the proper mechanics?

Now if somebody would just figure out how to incorporate both of those things I'm thinking they could create a program that would increase velocity and reduce injuries.

- But that's just those voices in my head doing that crazy talk thing again.

If you threw a football with the same delivery, arm action and intensity as a pitcher your arm would last about 2 starts before you blew it out. The point is: It (the football) is a different object, with a different, less stressful, less max effort, less load delivery. Additionally,  it is a different shape & yes, it weighs more.

In addition: Happy for your boys & the success & increase! They are still not yet fully mature males & please revert back to my Captain Crunch comments. They apply here. Give me a roster of fully mature, active adult pitchers. Do nothing different except add football throwing & I submit you will see no uptick in velo.  In a growing, maturing male, virtually any proper additional physical activity will produce a spike. Just common sense.

The difference for me on the overload theory is that we are talking about the muscle groups of the arm (vs. core or legs). Clearly, max effort, overhand throwing of a 5 oz object, repeatedly, has a direct correlation to injury. This can not be disputed. So the theory is that instead of the prior actions with a 5 oz. implement, we sub a 12 oz (or pick a #) implement & we have a formula for strength & injury prevention is about as off the chart as it gets & frankly an insult to common sense. Does this mean that everyone who engages in it will blow their arm out? no. Does this mean that possible gains are not available? no. Does this activity pose a huge risk, especially if not expertly administered?. yes. Is there a way to expertly administer a program like this given the differing bio makeup, ages & relative strength of the new "prospect?" No, heck, we cant even limit or predict injury with the 5 oz ball!  

Now, under load with a 3-4 oz implement for the arm makes some sense at face value but I admit I have not looked at it deep enough to have an opinion.

Steve A. have you done enough research to realize that the underweight object actually poses more of an injury risk than the overweight object? Also, important distinction is plyocare work vs. all-out weighted ball velocity throwing. The prior should preceed the latter to improve mechanics, strength, flexibility and reduce risk of injury. And there are many MLB guys using both plyocare and weighted balls even if their organization doesn't officially have it as part of their program. The reason why many have been slow adopters is because they don't want to be blamed and fired if a guy does get injured. If a pitcher(s) gets injured using a program like Driveline the Pitching Coach takes the fall, not the pitcher. Meanwhile many MLB guys are doing it on their own and seeing benefits. I agree there is much still to be learned about the subject, but to dismiss it out of hand as inherently dangerous is counterproductive to that learning and growth. We used to think the world was flat too.