Arm slots

The three quarter arm slot is very natural for some pitchers. Many pitchers will find more movement from the three quarter slot.

I am very surprised to hear that going to the three quarter slot had an adverse effect on his "good junk". Exactly what grips have changed their movement, and how?

I have found that pitchers throwing from what I'll call the overhead slot (as opposed to the overhand slot) tend to have far less movement and also tend to have more shoulder problems (as compared to other arm slots).

The overhead slot is where the upper arm is extended upward. The overhand slot is where the upper arm is 90 degrees from the body (e.g., horizontal) and the forearm is 90 degrees from the upper arm (e.g., vertical).

If your son has been throwing from the overhead slot, then I am not at all surprised at the results.

My boy has mostly used the three quarter slot for years, and has a great deal of movement on the ball.

Thanks for the input

He’s definitely overhand & not overhead. As for the junk, I’ve tried to keep him on finger-position pitches, rather than wrist-turning pitches. He has a nice forkball and a slider with a pretty good cut. The problem has been his fastball. He was overthrowing it in the dirt and when he did get it across, it wasn’t that fast. The forkball was good, but they work best if they drop right on the plate (and with the hitters already not swinging, well…).

So anyway, the fastball’s looking much better from the ¾ slot. I’m just happy that it seems like he’s got a foundation to build everything on…before, it was like having the whole house built, but no foundation.

Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention the pitches. Now the forkball's coming in like a bad, slow curve. I can't remember, but I think his slider dropped a little more. Anyway, no big deal right now, but he does have less movement now on his pitches, which I also thought was weird.

The slider is generally regarded by most as being the hardest pitch on the arm.

I would recommend working on either a modified circle change or three finger change. Try both for a while, as some have better control and movement with one or the other. But it will take some practice to know.

Soon, you can start easing him into a little work on properly throwing curves. Take it gradually and don't let him become infatuated with them.

In a recent three hit, complete game outing my boy used only four curves. He uses far more changeups than curves. And c/u's aren't hard on the arm, and they are more deceptive.

As long as no two pitches arrive to a batter at the same speed, you're good. That's why it's so important to throw a good change.

Warren Spahn - "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing."

Whats wrong with 60 for a lh 13 year old? Plus let him pitch from the arm slot that he is most comfortable with. As he gets older he will learn to pitch from different arm slots. His focus should be on solid mechanics and throwing for location. A good long toss program and a good strength and conditioning program. Focus on two pitches right now for a 13 year old. FB and Change up is all he needs. Change speeds on the fb that will give him more than enough pitches. Im not advocating weight training but jump rope med balls tons of running and push ups and sit ups to start with. Good Luck

Coach,
Thanks for the info. I appreciate the help. Just as an FYI, I’ve been preaching mechanics, development, etc. to him for years. I don’t have a problem with him changing slots, but I thought it was weird that the speed increased and he felt better when he switched slots.

Re. Speed: After pitching 7-12 through little league, he didn’t pitch in Pony this year because the coach said he was too slow. So, I was trying to help with pitching daily & some long toss.

Re. Conditioning: He’s playing football again this year and he’s on the middle school basketball team, so he should be in pretty good shape. If anything, I’m concerned that he might be getting too much of a work out.

Thanks again & have a great day!
Andrew

Don't pitch daily. Throwing is fine.

Football weightlifting is not best for baseball. Baseball oriented lifting will build strength and flexibility. Football lifting often sacrifices flexibility for strength.

And you are correct, football coaches often overdo lifting. At least in this part of the world. Have seen more than a few injuries in spring as a direct result of football coaches pushing kids to overdo it in weightlifting.

Texan gives good advice.
Get rid of the forkballs and sliders, work on the fastball and change, leave curves out.
Regardlessof what arm slot your son pitches from if he doesn't lay off the junk he won't go anywhere.

Thanks much for the advice.

Re. Pitching vs. throwing: How much pitching (in general) is recommended? I've heard pitching every 5 days, throwing the others. Also what aspect of pitching is so much harder on the arm? Is it just the extra exertion?

Re. Arm slots. My son's been experimenting between 3/4 and sidearm. My guess is that he should experiment then settle in to a slot and stay there so that he doesn't alter his mechanics mid-game. Assuming that's the case, is there a better-liked slot? Is one harder on the arm or harder to control than the other?

Re. Lifting. Are there any sites out there that have baseball-specific weightlifting? About all I know is that it's best to stay away from the heavy stuff. Oh also, they don't start football lifting until 9th grade at his school, so he's okay. And he's talking about quitting football after this year to concentrate on baseball & basketball.

Thanks again!
Andrew

My older son is a 6'4" LHP and during his high school days, 2-3 different pitching instructors/coaches told him they thought he'd throw 4-5 mph harder if he dropped down a little (he was almost a straight overhand). He was low 80's his first year in college and when his college pitching coach made the same suggestion, he decided to try it.

Hindsight is 20/20 but here's how it looks now:

Pros: he does have more velocity, throwing 85-86 now, maybe even 87 at times, seems to get more movement, and his ball is a little harder to pick up coming in. Arm slot looks fluid and comfortable, but it took a while, a long while.

Cons: He was always a control-type pitcher, mixing speeds constantly and hitting his spots, but it has taken a full year to get the muscle memory developed at the new slot and his control suffered. It has gotten better but still needs work. His bread and butter pitch is the changeup, and it took almost a year to get comfortable with it from the new slot. It took a long while before the fluidity was back to it's pre-change status.

My son tells me constantly: "Velocity doesn't get college hitters out; they hit everything that's straight and between 82-93. Movement and location get college hitters out."

He still agrees with the change, but not everyone watching him pitch knows the history and it has been frustrating at times when he has struggled with his control. He rarely throws a 4 seamer, instead prefering the slower but better moving two seamer.

Hope this helps.

Just my two cents...for what it's worth training pitching priorities

Release point...release point...release point.

Go no further until he has a consistent release point...with out it his ball-to-strike ratio will not look to good, may end up costing him many wins.

Curves, sliders for a 13 yo is a no-no...

Until he can get his fastball hitting the absolute outside corner at the knees, 6 out of 10 times stop thinking about anything else. This will help him develope better control, focus his throwing by making him understand that pitching is hitting spots, not just throwing.

The coach thinks he suffers from throwing the ball to slow...that is never the criteria of a good pitcher. Location, Movement, Speed in that order.

Location equals control...which means work on a consistent release point. Video your son and look at where he is releasing every pitch he throws. Measure the difference of each release. Check where his hands and feet are. Usually the release point is affected by a simple thing like where his arm and hand starts on the backside of the tee.

Movement equals where the pitch starts based upon how the ball is being held and released from the hand. You will be surprised to find that pitchers are careless about how they hold the ball. This is critical to consistent movement.

Speed is a function of rhythm. Make sure your son has the peoper rhythm points in his form and that they are absolutely consistent with every pitch.

First Location; Second Movement; and Third Speed = LMS; with proper LMS your son could be a very good pitcher.

I would have to say that a consistent release point is only one factor in pitching command. Consistency in release is not any more important than the other primary aspects of a pitcher's mechanics.

Grips are important to movement, but so is finger pressure.

And I wouldn't recommend taking too literally the "absolute outside corner at the knees, 6 out of 10 times". Yes, command of the fastball is the first objective. Followed by command of a changeup. But if someone is talking about absolutley not moving the mitt at all, and having the pitcher hit it six out of ten, most pros can't accomplish that (at least in a game). {And before anyone argues the latter statement, I recommend they watch some pro games. Mark down for each pitch whether or not the mitt moved. The results will surprise some folks.}

<<< And I wouldn't recommend taking too literally the "absolute outside corner at the knees, 6 out of 10 times". Yes, command of the fastball is the first objective. Followed by command of a changeup. But if someone is talking about absolutley not moving the mitt at all, and having the pitcher hit it six out of ten, most pros can't accomplish that (at least in a game). {And before anyone argues the latter statement, I recommend they watch some pro games. Mark down for each pitch whether or not the mitt moved. The results will surprise some folks.}


"Show me a guy who won't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser" Sandy Koufax >>>

***********************************************

Everyday we gave 6 pitchers 10 balls each. We placed the catcher on the outside corner and had the pitchers practice throwing to that location everyday for 10 minutes for 3 months. At the end of that period we had three kids that could do it. They were 11 years old at the time.

In the games it really helped them when they needed to get a batter out.

A lot easier to do from 46' than from 60'6". And how much did the mitt move?

Probably just caught up in semantics here. I would not want a young pitcher to wait until he could hit the "absolute outside corner at the knees, 6 out of 10 times" to begin working on offspeed - if the quoted phrase is taken literally. But perhaps you do not mean that literally.

I wanted my pitchers working on command that would let them hit all corners. The outside corner is not always the answer.

But then I didn't allow my pitchers to pitch every day either.

Texan

The word absolute in pitching for us means where the glove is located. As with the plate, a strike can be right over the plate or just on the outside corner where the edge of the ball is touching, it is still an absolute strike.

For our purposes with the kids anywhere the glove was held from mid-point of the pocket to the outer edge of the glove is absolute where the glove was located. We considered it to acceptable. From mid-point to the outer edge is approximately 3 inches.


For our purposes a ten minute bull pen every day for 11-12yo was normal. My son threw a 15 to 25 minute bull-pen at the high school level everyday. He currently does a 25-50 pitch bullpen everyday at the college level.

Thanks Texan, Ramrod, & Hokieone for the advice. I had been thinking about videotaping him earlier. I think I'll plan on doing that soon so that he can see how he's throwing. I'll probably also try to get him throwing a little bit through the week to build up his arm.

Re. location. This has been an ongoing problem. When he was throwing over the top, he had a tendency to overthrow the fastball & put it in the dirt. He just couldn't back off and hit the mitt. That's when he'd go to the forkball (too much), etc. So, it's been really nice to see him drop the arm & start to get more comfortable & confident throwing fastballs. Now I feel like he can really start working on his control.

Re. grip. He's always been careful about how he grips the ball. He had been throwing a two-seam FB & after his baseball camp, he started throwing a four-seamer.

Re. rhythym. This is another work in progress. He's always looked very good in this respect. But he wound up slowly and his arm speed seemed unusually slow. About two weeks ago, I asked him to speed it up a little bit and I think everything looks better (higher kick, faster arm motion, more velocity). But the change has made him a bit less consistent for the time being. I think it'll be okay with a little work.

Re. change up. He's always used the forkball for a change up. I think he might have to keep throwing it from over the top until he can get a working change up from 3/4. He's been trying to throw a circle change off and on for the past year. Occasionally they look good, but more often than not, they float somewhere over the left-handed batters' box.

Thanks again for the advice & have a great day!
Andrew

I'm sure you are probably getting his motion to a good speed, but not allowing him to rush his mechanics.

The true forkball is very stressful on the elbow. If you spread your first two fingers very wide, you can feel the tension on the tendon down at the elbow.

I used to have my pitchers use their c/u grip when warming their arms up before practice (not bullpen, but rather just the usual start of practice warming their arm up). This gets lots of repetition in and can tremendously improve control of the c/u.

If he uses the circle, I would recommend the modified circle change. The modified circle change is similar to a true circle change, but instead of curling the forefinger all the way back into the web of the thumb, the tip of the forefinger is left touching the tip of the thumb. From the side it would look like the "ok" sign. Curling the forefinger all the way in creates undue stress in the tendons. The modified circle works just as well, without the added stress.

Good luck to your son.

FWIW, we have alittle LHP on our 11U (12U in the fall team). He used to throw straight over the top and labored to throw. We moved him down to a low 3/4 slot and his ball runs like crazy. He also can get to his 60 pitch limit with less effort. Also, we have introduced a "BP fastball" type pitch to him where he very gently feathers over the top of the ball to take off 2-3 mph and get more armside run.

quote:

Also, we have introduced a "BP fastball" type pitch to him where he very gently feathers over the top of the ball to take off 2-3 mph and get more armside run.

You are a good coach. Could you explain this more closely? I am not sure that I understand what you did here. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Bighit15:
You are a good coach. Could you explain this more closely? I am not sure that I understand what you did here. Thanks

All of our LHPs in college threw BP FBs. In FB counts, we would throw a BP fastball...about 3-4 mph slower to induce a GB.

On our little LHP, with his arm slot (on a normal FB), his fingers point roughly at a 45 degree angle on the ball (relative to the ground). We have taught him to take a few mphs off (without changing his arm speed) by slightly keep his fingers more on top of the ball. We work with him on getting more armside run by finger positioning.

It has paid off...this past year, in 62 games, our 11U team turned 49 double plays.

quote:

Release point...release point...release point.

Go no further until he has a consistent release point...with out it his ball-to-strike ratio will not look to good, may end up costing him many wins.

Good topic. Hokieone, a very good post. thanks.

Texan, good posts as well.

Ramrod, good post. Release point will take care of itself if you get mechanics to be consistent. The same routine on every pitch, whether it is bull pen or mound. When that happens, control happens. Very few are completely consistent, even at the pro level.

Pitching from a mound puts extra stress on an arm. Mix it up some.
Monday-Bullpen Full
Tuesday-play catch
Wdnesday-full long toss and short pen on flat ground
Thursday-hard catch
Friday -Bullpen full
Sat-catch
Sun- very light catch or day off
Just an example.

Any other suggestions?
Thanks Redbird. I got it.

Bighit, what would be your recommendation for a typical fall pitcher (e.g., one pitching appearance in select tourney either on Sat. or Sun.)?

Thanks

Whatever day he is pitching.......make that his FRIDAY Bullpen/Game and just move the rest of the days up. For instance; if he pitches satuday, make monday the light catch/day off. That is how I would and did do it.

That is fairly close to what he has been doing. But he hadn't been doing the long toss & short pen on flat ground. I'll suggest he try adding that.

Pirateradio, Texan, Redbird

Adjustment for us were made with the lower half of the body.

The maximum speed is developed after the foot plant hits, in how the power of the big muscles in the buttocks and legs are used in conjunction with the speed of the hips, and how quickly the hips are opened to the target at the turn.

Then to create off-speed pitches is done with the lower half of the body, and how deep the ball is held in the hand. Rather than a kick-over follow-through with the trailing foot, the trailing leg can be dragged. We use slightly opening the hips during the stride before the plant, and that takes some of the power off, like pulling your foot up off of the accelerator pedal. We have found you can achieve more consistent speed modulation that way.

While acknowledging that your view on off speed is well implanted in one camp, I must strongly disagree with it.

Changing the grip alone (e.g., circle change or three finger change), without pushing the ball back in the palm, will take 10-12 mph off the fast ball. And this is without any lower body dragging.

The best c/u is delivered exactly the same as the fastball, except for the grip. This provides the most deceptive pitch, for obvious reasons. It also provides for the best consistency, as it is delivered with exactly the same mechanics as the fastball.

Merely changing the grip provides an extremely consistent velocity.

The fewer different mechanics are used, the greater the overall consistency and command.

Texan and Ramrod......I agree with both of you......and what I usually suggest to a pitcher if his change up needs to lose a few more mph is now to drag the pivot foot, as RR explained.

quote:

Texan and Ramrod......I agree with both of you......and what I usually suggest to a pitcher if his change up needs to lose a few more mph is now to drag the pivot foot, as RR explained.

Do you do that for everyone? What do you think about a player just using grip, arm action, same arm slot as the fb, and the same arm speed and not dragging the foot or opening up sooner? The reason I ask is that some pitchers just cnnot get it the way I described. It took my son 3 years, but now it looks exactly like his fb until after it leave his hand. Also it seemed to me that by dragging or opening up sooner was a "tell" to really advanced hitters. jmo

I would appreciate your feedback.

BH15,

I think each pitcher is different. What may work for 1, may not work for all. Use whatever works.

quote:

Originally posted by Bighit15:
What do you think about a player just using grip, arm action, same arm slot as the fb, and the same arm speed and not dragging the foot or opening up sooner? The reason I ask is that some pitchers just cnnot get it the way I described. It took my son 3 years, but now it looks exactly like his fb until after it leave his hand. Also it seemed to me that by dragging or opening up sooner was a "tell" to really advanced hitters. jmo

Then I would bet your son has an incredibly deceptive change. I agree that the best c/u is one that is not telegraphed.

Fortunately, my son's PC taught him from day one "Nothing changes but the grip". His c/u has always worked very well for him.

Pirateradio, Texan, Redbird5

The offspeed pitch is best when there is a differential of 12 to 15 mph from the fb, with the same pitching form and arm slot characteristics.

To reduce the speed that much by simply changing grips is difficult for me to fathom. If I throw the same way with my arm and open my hips at the same speed as my fb and the only difference is how I hold the ball in my hand is different, than I know I will probably get a different kind of movement on the ball but the speed will not change that much.

The closing of the step more than slightly, if done properly, will actually have an offspeed ball end up right on the outside corner at the catchers feet. The deep hand held circle c/u has much more drag than a three finger cu. A slight drag on the pivot foot can slow the ball down so that a fb thrown as usual could actually look like a fb but have a speed differential of 10 mph.

There's different ways of doing the same thing...the pitcher that can master each one of these techniques can be very difficult to hit.

A pitcher with just a fb is not as difficult to hit as a pitcher that has a fb with a complementary c/u. Add one more pitch and the batter can't just sit on the fb, or just the c/u, now he has to worry about that third pitch. That hesitation by a batter is all you need as a pitcher to bring the advantage back to your side of the chess board.

The early opening technique is a more advanced one and I don't recommend it for the younger pitcher. It could give him a bad habit.

quote:

To reduce the speed that much by simply changing grips is difficult for me to fathom. If I throw the same way with my arm and open my hips at the same speed as my fb and the only difference is how I hold the ball in my hand is different, than I know I will probably get a different kind of movement on the ball but the speed will not change that much.

My son has a 94 mph fb and an 80 mph change to go along with an 84 mph bb. So it can be done, which negates your assertion. The key is to take the 2-4 years needed to accomplish the task and not "cheat" by looking for now results. Thus my comment that it took my son 3 years to master. We did not settle for shortcuts.

Grateful is a very accomplished college pitching coach. That is why I value his opinion. The college level needs "now" results and I see the value in dragging the foot or opening up. The pro level needs deception and that is what we trained my son for. Pro level hitters will see changes in form and be alerted and adjust. That is why J. Santana, of the Twins, is so devastating. His change of motion is non existant. Different needs for different levels. I wanted my son to be proficient at higher levels and not compromise shortcuts for "now" success.

Bighit15

Thanks for your insight. I made no negative observation for anyone to take offense.

The method is at the shoulder at the point of release. The ball is thrown just like a normal fb but at the point that the ball is about to be released (split second) the shoulder momentum is truncated.

It's called pulling the string.

Since that was not explained I was probing to get the answer.

thanks anyway.

Oh OK. So you knew, but were testing me? OK thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod:
Pirateradio, Texan, Redbird5

The offspeed pitch is best when there is a differential of 12 to 15 mph from the fb, with the same pitching form and arm slot characteristics.

To reduce the speed that much by simply changing grips is difficult for me to fathom. If I throw the same way with my arm and open my hips at the same speed as my fb and the only difference is how I hold the ball in my hand is different, than I know I will probably get a different kind of movement on the ball but the speed will not change that much.

I watched the radar each week for over five years while my son worked with his pitching coach. And I can tell you that changing the grip and not holding the ball as tightly will take off 10-12 mph. That is fact based on many data points.

If you want an intermediate c/u, that one can also be done without changing anything but the grip. For the fastball, the two fingers are next to each other. Spread the two fingers apart by an inch or so. Not a forkball. And not so far as to be uncomfortable or create stress in the tendons leading to the elbow. This will take 5-7 mph off. And again, this was observed over years watching a Stalker Sport readout.

Changing the mechanics adds one more variable to the equation of successful pitching. One more thing that can get out of adjustment. One more thing that can go wrong. One more thing that must be watched. And the change you discussed is not necessary. Nor does it add anything to the pitcher's arsenal.

The simpler, the better. The simpler it is, the easier it is to maximize consistency.

Bighit....you asked if I would have every pitcher drag his foot on a changeup......the answer is no........the first part of the changeup is the grip........and before I would suggest dragging the back foot I would get them to keep a stiff wrist (as opposed to a losse wrist with the fastball) to slow the ball down......some pitchers have difficulty with that.......again, I would only suggest dragging it if they really need to take more mph off the pitch........another thing they can try is to lead with the thumb (with a circle change, leading with the circle)........

I do try to encourage them to keep their lower body (knee lift/stride/hips) the same on their changeup as on the fastball. Sometimes though, if a pitcher has trouble keeping the changeup down in the zone, I remind them to shorten their stride in order to get the chest over the knee and keep the release point way out in front.

As you have mentioned, advance hitters can sometimes pick up on the fact that the pitcher is dragging his foot, but good pitchers can still get away with it a couple times per game.

I always like to have pitchers try to have a couple different speeds with the changeup, and to experiment.....assuming they are gaining some mastery with their changeup.

Ultimately, the goal in teaching pitchers is for them to become their own pitching coach, to feel it when they throw pitches correctly, and to feel it when they have a flawed delivery.....that is important as they get older and advance in competition.

Bighit, thanks for the kind words......a coach who coaches long enough will accomplish some positive things, but only because he has great students/players....two players can be taught the same things, and sometimes only one will get it.

quote:

Originally posted by grateful:
Ultimately, the goal in teaching pitchers is for them to become their own pitching coach, to feel it when they throw pitches correctly, and to feel it when they have a flawed delivery.....that is important as they get older and advance in competition.

Bighit, thanks for the kind words......a coach who coaches long enough will accomplish some positive things, but only because he has great students/players....two players can be taught the same things, and sometimes only one will get it.

Grateful,