Arm slots

The three quarter arm slot is very natural for some pitchers. Many pitchers will find more movement from the three quarter slot.

I am very surprised to hear that going to the three quarter slot had an adverse effect on his "good junk". Exactly what grips have changed their movement, and how?

I have found that pitchers throwing from what I'll call the overhead slot (as opposed to the overhand slot) tend to have far less movement and also tend to have more shoulder problems (as compared to other arm slots).

The overhead slot is where the upper arm is extended upward. The overhand slot is where the upper arm is 90 degrees from the body (e.g., horizontal) and the forearm is 90 degrees from the upper arm (e.g., vertical).

If your son has been throwing from the overhead slot, then I am not at all surprised at the results.

My boy has mostly used the three quarter slot for years, and has a great deal of movement on the ball.

Thanks for the input

He’s definitely overhand & not overhead. As for the junk, I’ve tried to keep him on finger-position pitches, rather than wrist-turning pitches. He has a nice forkball and a slider with a pretty good cut. The problem has been his fastball. He was overthrowing it in the dirt and when he did get it across, it wasn’t that fast. The forkball was good, but they work best if they drop right on the plate (and with the hitters already not swinging, well…).

So anyway, the fastball’s looking much better from the ¾ slot. I’m just happy that it seems like he’s got a foundation to build everything on…before, it was like having the whole house built, but no foundation.

Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention the pitches. Now the forkball's coming in like a bad, slow curve. I can't remember, but I think his slider dropped a little more. Anyway, no big deal right now, but he does have less movement now on his pitches, which I also thought was weird.

The slider is generally regarded by most as being the hardest pitch on the arm.

I would recommend working on either a modified circle change or three finger change. Try both for a while, as some have better control and movement with one or the other. But it will take some practice to know.

Soon, you can start easing him into a little work on properly throwing curves. Take it gradually and don't let him become infatuated with them.

In a recent three hit, complete game outing my boy used only four curves. He uses far more changeups than curves. And c/u's aren't hard on the arm, and they are more deceptive.

As long as no two pitches arrive to a batter at the same speed, you're good. That's why it's so important to throw a good change.

Warren Spahn - "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing."

Whats wrong with 60 for a lh 13 year old? Plus let him pitch from the arm slot that he is most comfortable with. As he gets older he will learn to pitch from different arm slots. His focus should be on solid mechanics and throwing for location. A good long toss program and a good strength and conditioning program. Focus on two pitches right now for a 13 year old. FB and Change up is all he needs. Change speeds on the fb that will give him more than enough pitches. Im not advocating weight training but jump rope med balls tons of running and push ups and sit ups to start with. Good Luck

Coach,
Thanks for the info. I appreciate the help. Just as an FYI, I’ve been preaching mechanics, development, etc. to him for years. I don’t have a problem with him changing slots, but I thought it was weird that the speed increased and he felt better when he switched slots.

Re. Speed: After pitching 7-12 through little league, he didn’t pitch in Pony this year because the coach said he was too slow. So, I was trying to help with pitching daily & some long toss.

Re. Conditioning: He’s playing football again this year and he’s on the middle school basketball team, so he should be in pretty good shape. If anything, I’m concerned that he might be getting too much of a work out.

Thanks again & have a great day!
Andrew

Don't pitch daily. Throwing is fine.

Football weightlifting is not best for baseball. Baseball oriented lifting will build strength and flexibility. Football lifting often sacrifices flexibility for strength.

And you are correct, football coaches often overdo lifting. At least in this part of the world. Have seen more than a few injuries in spring as a direct result of football coaches pushing kids to overdo it in weightlifting.

Texan gives good advice.
Get rid of the forkballs and sliders, work on the fastball and change, leave curves out.
Regardlessof what arm slot your son pitches from if he doesn't lay off the junk he won't go anywhere.

Thanks much for the advice.

Re. Pitching vs. throwing: How much pitching (in general) is recommended? I've heard pitching every 5 days, throwing the others. Also what aspect of pitching is so much harder on the arm? Is it just the extra exertion?

Re. Arm slots. My son's been experimenting between 3/4 and sidearm. My guess is that he should experiment then settle in to a slot and stay there so that he doesn't alter his mechanics mid-game. Assuming that's the case, is there a better-liked slot? Is one harder on the arm or harder to control than the other?

Re. Lifting. Are there any sites out there that have baseball-specific weightlifting? About all I know is that it's best to stay away from the heavy stuff. Oh also, they don't start football lifting until 9th grade at his school, so he's okay. And he's talking about quitting football after this year to concentrate on baseball & basketball.

Thanks again!
Andrew

My older son is a 6'4" LHP and during his high school days, 2-3 different pitching instructors/coaches told him they thought he'd throw 4-5 mph harder if he dropped down a little (he was almost a straight overhand). He was low 80's his first year in college and when his college pitching coach made the same suggestion, he decided to try it.

Hindsight is 20/20 but here's how it looks now:

Pros: he does have more velocity, throwing 85-86 now, maybe even 87 at times, seems to get more movement, and his ball is a little harder to pick up coming in. Arm slot looks fluid and comfortable, but it took a while, a long while.

Cons: He was always a control-type pitcher, mixing speeds constantly and hitting his spots, but it has taken a full year to get the muscle memory developed at the new slot and his control suffered. It has gotten better but still needs work. His bread and butter pitch is the changeup, and it took almost a year to get comfortable with it from the new slot. It took a long while before the fluidity was back to it's pre-change status.

My son tells me constantly: "Velocity doesn't get college hitters out; they hit everything that's straight and between 82-93. Movement and location get college hitters out."

He still agrees with the change, but not everyone watching him pitch knows the history and it has been frustrating at times when he has struggled with his control. He rarely throws a 4 seamer, instead prefering the slower but better moving two seamer.

Hope this helps.

Just my two cents...for what it's worth training pitching priorities

Release point...release point...release point.

Go no further until he has a consistent release point...with out it his ball-to-strike ratio will not look to good, may end up costing him many wins.

Curves, sliders for a 13 yo is a no-no...

Until he can get his fastball hitting the absolute outside corner at the knees, 6 out of 10 times stop thinking about anything else. This will help him develope better control, focus his throwing by making him understand that pitching is hitting spots, not just throwing.

The coach thinks he suffers from throwing the ball to slow...that is never the criteria of a good pitcher. Location, Movement, Speed in that order.

Location equals control...which means work on a consistent release point. Video your son and look at where he is releasing every pitch he throws. Measure the difference of each release. Check where his hands and feet are. Usually the release point is affected by a simple thing like where his arm and hand starts on the backside of the tee.

Movement equals where the pitch starts based upon how the ball is being held and released from the hand. You will be surprised to find that pitchers are careless about how they hold the ball. This is critical to consistent movement.

Speed is a function of rhythm. Make sure your son has the peoper rhythm points in his form and that they are absolutely consistent with every pitch.

First Location; Second Movement; and Third Speed = LMS; with proper LMS your son could be a very good pitcher.

I would have to say that a consistent release point is only one factor in pitching command. Consistency in release is not any more important than the other primary aspects of a pitcher's mechanics.

Grips are important to movement, but so is finger pressure.

And I wouldn't recommend taking too literally the "absolute outside corner at the knees, 6 out of 10 times". Yes, command of the fastball is the first objective. Followed by command of a changeup. But if someone is talking about absolutley not moving the mitt at all, and having the pitcher hit it six out of ten, most pros can't accomplish that (at least in a game). {And before anyone argues the latter statement, I recommend they watch some pro games. Mark down for each pitch whether or not the mitt moved. The results will surprise some folks.}

<<< And I wouldn't recommend taking too literally the "absolute outside corner at the knees, 6 out of 10 times". Yes, command of the fastball is the first objective. Followed by command of a changeup. But if someone is talking about absolutley not moving the mitt at all, and having the pitcher hit it six out of ten, most pros can't accomplish that (at least in a game). {And before anyone argues the latter statement, I recommend they watch some pro games. Mark down for each pitch whether or not the mitt moved. The results will surprise some folks.}


"Show me a guy who won't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser" Sandy Koufax >>>

***********************************************

Everyday we gave 6 pitchers 10 balls each. We placed the catcher on the outside corner and had the pitchers practice throwing to that location everyday for 10 minutes for 3 months. At the end of that period we had three kids that could do it. They were 11 years old at the time.

In the games it really helped them when they needed to get a batter out.

A lot easier to do from 46' than from 60'6". And how much did the mitt move?

Probably just caught up in semantics here. I would not want a young pitcher to wait until he could hit the "absolute outside corner at the knees, 6 out of 10 times" to begin working on offspeed - if the quoted phrase is taken literally. But perhaps you do not mean that literally.

I wanted my pitchers working on command that would let them hit all corners. The outside corner is not always the answer.

But then I didn't allow my pitchers to pitch every day either.

Texan

The word absolute in pitching for us means where the glove is located. As with the plate, a strike can be right over the plate or just on the outside corner where the edge of the ball is touching, it is still an absolute strike.

For our purposes with the kids anywhere the glove was held from mid-point of the pocket to the outer edge of the glove is absolute where the glove was located. We considered it to acceptable. From mid-point to the outer edge is approximately 3 inches.


For our purposes a ten minute bull pen every day for 11-12yo was normal. My son threw a 15 to 25 minute bull-pen at the high school level everyday. He currently does a 25-50 pitch bullpen everyday at the college level.

Thanks Texan, Ramrod, & Hokieone for the advice. I had been thinking about videotaping him earlier. I think I'll plan on doing that soon so that he can see how he's throwing. I'll probably also try to get him throwing a little bit through the week to build up his arm.

Re. location. This has been an ongoing problem. When he was throwing over the top, he had a tendency to overthrow the fastball & put it in the dirt. He just couldn't back off and hit the mitt. That's when he'd go to the forkball (too much), etc. So, it's been really nice to see him drop the arm & start to get more comfortable & confident throwing fastballs. Now I feel like he can really start working on his control.

Re. grip. He's always been careful about how he grips the ball. He had been throwing a two-seam FB & after his baseball camp, he started throwing a four-seamer.

Re. rhythym. This is another work in progress. He's always looked very good in this respect. But he wound up slowly and his arm speed seemed unusually slow. About two weeks ago, I asked him to speed it up a little bit and I think everything looks better (higher kick, faster arm motion, more velocity). But the change has made him a bit less consistent for the time being. I think it'll be okay with a little work.

Re. change up. He's always used the forkball for a change up. I think he might have to keep throwing it from over the top until he can get a working change up from 3/4. He's been trying to throw a circle change off and on for the past year. Occasionally they look good, but more often than not, they float somewhere over the left-handed batters' box.

Thanks again for the advice & have a great day!
Andrew

I'm sure you are probably getting his motion to a good speed, but not allowing him to rush his mechanics.

The true forkball is very stressful on the elbow. If you spread your first two fingers very wide, you can feel the tension on the tendon down at the elbow.

I used to have my pitchers use their c/u grip when warming their arms up before practice (not bullpen, but rather just the usual start of practice warming their arm up). This gets lots of repetition in and can tremendously improve control of the c/u.

If he uses the circle, I would recommend the modified circle change. The modified circle change is similar to a true circle change, but instead of curling the forefinger all the way back into the web of the thumb, the tip of the forefinger is left touching the tip of the thumb. From the side it would look like the "ok" sign. Curling the forefinger all the way in creates undue stress in the tendons. The modified circle works just as well, without the added stress.

Good luck to your son.