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Assess this statement.

L LOW337100+ posts
quote:
This shows rotation beginning before foot plant........

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/palmeiro2.mpeg



Bluedog....what are you smoking?

Use the slide bar at the bottom of the media player that shows Palmiero and freeze it at foot plant.....Even when his front heel hits the ground his hips are still closed, hands back etc.....he has not rotated a bit....the only thing that he HAS done is prepare himself to swing which he carrys through with.....I will say it again...."you try and hit a 90 mph (or better)....scratch that.....try an 85 mph FB....It is much easier to continue your swing if your approach is middle of the field and you are prepared to swing on EVERY pitch....the ONLY decision that should be made is NOT to swing......Ask any player who plays at a level where 85mph and better is faced daily and I will guarantee they share my view....I have NEVER spoke w/ anyone who says they decide to swing once they recognize it is a desirable pitch to take a pass at.....I don't even think you could use that line of thinking (or approach if you will) during BP....and I'm not talking about little league BP when you lob the ball...I'm talking about BP thrown from about 50ft at about 60-65 mph......Keep in mind, the BP thrower is TRYING to hit your bat......I would LOVE to throw you BP....Any chance of that happening....Like I said, "I travel quite a bit and throw beauty BP.....
L LOW337100+ posts
One more thing Bulldog....

Palmiero happens to get off of his back side....the video you posted makes it tough to see but there is other footage of him that makes it easy to see.....

You might also go to Right View Pro and let Don Slaught know he doesn't know what he is talking about....Maybe he will pay for your knowledge....notice the Ichiro/Mantle comparison...How in the world are those guys successful??????
L LOW337100+ posts
You know, this is real good site for people to share ideas and parents who try and help youth. bbscout, shep, pgstaff and others give solid advice and it's a shame that people who have NO idea what they are talking about, let alone the practical experience to go along w/ it, try and sometimes successfuly brainwash the accountant, doctor, laborer and good intended eager to learn parent into buying that garbage....
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Low337, I believe what BlueDog is saying is that if you focus on the hip pocket of Palmerio, you will see that his hips do slightly move before foot plant. Of course, I can't speak for him and so...

I've asked before and have not received any poster's definition of terms or phrases or simply phrases aligned to either philosophy. I'll do my best and then the posters can correct my errors.

Linear - "Throw your hands at the ball." (Heard Charlie Lau once say that."

Rotational - Hand and body work as a unit. Hands really don't move far from the body. (Side note, we say in our program, "keep your hands inside the ball." Noted that one poster not only doesn't like this phrase but warns all to avoid anyone that says it. We teach this but do a lot of video work on this as well with our hitters. My Assistant Coach is fantastic at Video Breakdown.)

The BACK toe? I've read here that "rotational people believe in squash the bug." Who was the origional Squash the Bug person? Believe it was a linear guy.

One fallicy, as I see it, and again, I'm sure I'll be corrected is that rotational guys don't come on their back toe. I think the opposite is true. When/if that force which I call torque or uncoil hits that front leg, it must have some counter action. I believe a part of that counter action is that the body does rotate on that back toe.

Linear - Forward movement of the body.

Rotational - Everyone I've ever talked to comments that you must stride forward in rotational. One critique, and maybe rightfully so, of Bluedog of me and what I teach is that we teach, "heel - toe." We've been very successful with this for a long time. However, he commented to me in the past that an efficient swings demands that forward movement. (Degree?)

OK, comments? BE KIND TO THE OLD GUY HERE. JUST TRYING TO KEEP A POSITIVE AND INFORMATIVE THREAD GOING.

HAVE A GREAT DAY! WE STARTED TODAY AT 6:30 A.M. COMING IN AGAIN AFTER SCHOOL. GO KNIGHTS!
Last edited by CoachB25
T troy9910+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
This statement was made to me on another site.

...actually, every hitter in the major leagues today hits with the linear approach, not the rotational approach. every single one.

Thoughts?


My thoughts are ....This is a statement made by someone who does not know the difference between the two. Go to the hitting clips and see hitter after hitter get to approx. 50/50 wgt dist after toe touch (before the swing starts). Then watch their heads. If they are not fooled on the pitch they are all steady. (Unless you are looking at old clips of Wade Boggs or new ones of Ichiro etc.).... ARod to name the best currently, has absolutely no forward movement after stride (which happens before the swing). ... Rotational is not the only way to hit...but to say that most MLB players are not using a rotational swing is absurd. This does not mean they swing perfect every time...when fooled they adjust, sometimes with linear movement... BTW.... It's definetly not the only way for younger hitters (HS and younger) to have success IMO....
Last edited by troy99
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
LOW, you sound like the typical old establishment type of coach who views hitting technique as, this is the way it's always been done.......I won't insult you as you have done me, simply because you're not worth insulting to me..... boredom

I will say this about you, though......Hitting people like you are the reason pitchers dominate.....You are a pitcher's best friend.....Your way of teaching hitting is old and tired....There is a better way....You need to search for it....
Last edited by BlueDog
L LOW337100+ posts
quote:
Low, MLB hitters don't hit against a stiff front leg.....The swing isn't about resistance...It's about using the middle properly.....Plain and simple....

MLB hitters don't hit against anything.....

I could tell early on that you don't understand rotation.....


Bluedog....

I never said, NEVER SAID....that you hit w/ a stiff front leg....the front side must be FIRM....and you cannot begin any sort of rotation w/ force (taking your back side ie.. hip TO and THRU the ball) untill the front heel hits the ground.....dude you are so far out there in describing what you are trying to explain......NO ONE on the planet involved w/ professional or college baseball will tell you hit against a STIFF front leg.....come on dude...

What do you do for a living? (BLUEDOG)
L LOW337100+ posts
quote:
LOW, you sound like the typical old establishment type of coach who views hitting technique as, this is the way it's always been done.......I won't insult you as you have done me, simply because you're not worth insulting to me.....

I will say this about you, though......Hitting people like you are the reason pitchers dominate.....You are a pitcher's best friend.....Your way of teaching hitting is old and tired....There is a better way....You need to search for it....


Bluedog...

What is keeping you out of baseball? Apply for a job....get it and then you can cure all the hitting woes in the world....Some big league clubs sure could use you.
L LOW337100+ posts
Bluedog...

PLEASE correct me if I am wrong on the following statements!

1. You have NEVER played this game beyond High School.

2. All of the knowledge you have attained is purely from reading and observance.

3. You currently do not work w/ College or Professional hitters.

4. You have never faced a pitcher while playing at the college or professional level.

5. You have yet to answer one of my questions.

I believe your intentions are meaningful and well intended. But completely out of left field and very inaccurate.



PLEASE...PLEASE....PLEASE....tell me where I am wrong w/ the above statements....PLEASE...I'm on my knees begging you....
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
LOW, baseball is a good ole boy system filled chock full of people who teach tired, old and faulty hitting technique.....To be a member of that establishment is not a compliment in my opinion......

You, like most, teach linear hands to the ball, resistance from the front side old dinosaur type of stuff.....Which is fine with me.....

However, when you come on here and profess to understand and explain rotation in the swing to people who don't know any better and are searching for answers to something better than what you teach, and you don't have a clue as to what rotation in the swing is, then, I have a problem with that.....

Stick to what you know....Not what you think you know, but don't.....
Last edited by BlueDog
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
quote:
LOW, baseball is a good ole boy system filled chock full of people who teach tired, old and faulty hitting technique.....To be a member of that establishment is not a compliment in my opinion......


Why the bad taste Blue? Don't think LOW has been unfair in his requests. Neither have I...

Hey Mnight Rider, glad to hear from ya' sir.

Is entertaining at times. Will probably get to see your son this season. You have my attention. Wink

Bluedog, LOW is showing you some respect. Is it too much for you to do the same with all of us others, as well.

Shep
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
I will say that the discussions on the mechanics are fascinating, entertaining and perhaps informative if you know who has credibility and who doesn't. But regardless of who is right and who is wrong in these discussions, it ought to be clear that hitting is far more than mechanics. It includes many mental aspects, speed, coordination, etc... A player can have perfect mechanics and not be able to hit. And clearly there is more than one way to success, probably dependent to a large degree on the individual.

For anyone to say or imply, however, that guys who have succeeded on a professional level are uninformed or lack understanding is just plain stupid and destroys credibility.
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/L._Gonzalez03.mpeg

Easy to see again, rotation before foot plant....

LOW doesn't understand what rotation is.....The rotation forces the front foot to the ground.....There is no torque and no resistance....And, the decision to swing has been made long before this happens.....

Again I will say, I truly don't believe LOW knows what the middle of a hitter is.....
L LOW337100+ posts
Bluedog....

You obviously do not know what it means to hit against a firm front side....

As you rotate to hit the ball your front leg is firm (not neccesarily bent).

If your front side is weak then the front knee will get over the front foot....I do not (nor anyone that I know) condone the latter.

You would like your front knee to stay inside your front foot in an ideal world....provided you are not fooled on the pitch.
M Mniterambler10+ posts
I learned a long time ago that there is no right and wrong for everybody. Some kids its easy to see what is going wrong in their swing and some its not. Its a matter of trial and error and hopefully in the end the player will come up with what works for them. People can coach them until they are blue in the face but it wont help until the player all of a sudden finds that comfort zone that he can explode out of,,,,,see ball,hit ball, run the bases, dont make a science out of something that is not exact to begin with. Go ahead and laugh but the truth is the truth!
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
LOW, actually it is better if the front leg is bent at ball contact.....

It's not about a firm front side.....It's about using the middle to power the swing.....The front leg must be used properly, but it has nothing to do with resistance or torque.........

Understand that I am talking about rotation in the swing......This is something you do not understand or teach.....
L LOW337100+ posts
quote:
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/L._Gonzalez03.mpeg


Bluedog...

He does not rotate before his front foot hits the ground......You are confusing his preparation to hit anything thrown to him as rotation....He prepared to swing (timing if you will) then carried the swing thru. If it was not a desireable pitch he would have NOT swung.
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
A hitter does need to feel rotation with connection to know if he's doing it properly......It takes a thorough understanding of knowing the right power source, how to use it and how to use posture properly to be able to teach rotation in the swing.....Also, the teacher must understand connection, how to do it and how to hold it, and how it relates to rotation.....Because without connection there cannot be any rotation.....
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
BlueDog:

I don't think I know enough to be considered "baseball establishment." What I am trying to do is figure it out because I find it interesting and I want my youngest son to understand the best way to hit. That said, the link you provided goes to an article that paints with a broad brush. I have met many different instructors from many different organizations and all have their own style and philosophies (with many -- but not universal -- similarities).

Jim Lefebvre thoroughly understands all of the different philosophies and has all of the different equipment at his disposal, but uses terminology that is not the same that is presented here. Jeff Pentland is clearly a linear guy (I think) who preaches a clear weight shift. Brian Harper hit .295 for his distinguished career in the big leagues who believes in linear principles and taking the hands to and through the ball. He emphasizes a loading of the legs, but not one that causes the eyes to drop. Dave Hudgens seems brilliant to me and teaches a combination of both. Dave Hilton is one of the finest baseball teachers I have ever encoutered -- on both mechanics and mental aspects of the game -- and constantly is seeking to learn more. Robin Yount's career speaks for itself and his postive impact on young players is unmmatched. Ken Phelps looks at me when I use these terms and tells me that the worst thing a hitter can do at the plate in the big leagues is to think too much. He liked pitches away far more than anything else. There are lots or others in and out of organizations I have encountered and the most common attribute among them is their love of the game and their desire to impart their knowledge to any young player with a similar love. None of them pretended to have all the answers, but all of them still are trying to gain a greater understanding and credit hard work more than talent for their collective success. If that is an establishment point of view, then count me in.

By the way, in the end I truly believe that it comes down to talent. Without enough of it, all the hard work in the world will make little difference.
Last edited by jemaz
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
"What I am trying to do is figure it out because I find it interesting and I want my youngest son to understand the best way to hit."

jemaz I will say it again......If you are looking for answers to understanding rotation in the swing, you will not find them from good ole boy baseball establishment people.....They don't understand the MLB swing.......There is no teaching hitting at the MLB level......And, college coaches teach linear metal bat weight shift, hit against a firm front side, hands to the ball kind of stuff......

LOW is a perfect example of what I am saying.....He thinks MLB hitters don't rotate into foot plant and their brain doesn't make the decision to swing at a pitch......He doesn't understand rotation in the swing, yet he tries to convince people he does.....Heck, he doesn't even know where the middle of a hitter is......Much less how to use it properly....
Last edited by BlueDog
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Then, BlueDog, the question is where to find the answers with a real person who can teach the boy one on one. Keep in mind that the guys I am mentioning are working with younger players much of the time and one on one and they are doing their best to teach them. If not guys like these -- who to me have great credibility and to a degree probably greater than most think study the theories of hitting (including rotational theories even if not by that name) --then who?

I sent an e-mail note to Jack Mankin on his website with a fundamental question recently and never got a reply, which leaves my question (imporant to me) unanswered. I don't even know if it is a relevant question.

It is a dilemma.
Last edited by jemaz
L LOW337100+ posts
Bluedog...

the swing includes a positive movement toward the pitcher w/ rotational components......i think you are confusing the act of rotating to swing w/ the preparation to swing......

So what should a hitter look like, in your opinion, when he takes a pitch he decides not to take a pass at?

If I am interpreting the way you describe, the front hip will open before the front foot hits the ground.....Is this what you believe?
L LOW337100+ posts
quote:
But regardless of who is right and who is wrong in these discussions, it ought to be clear that hitting is far more than mechanics. It includes many mental aspects, speed, coordination, etc... A player can have perfect mechanics and not be able to hit. And clearly there is more than one way to success, probably dependent to a large degree on the individual.


Jemaz....

PERFECT!
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
[quote].i think you are confusing the act of rotating to swing w/ the preparation to swing......

LOW, I have told you that I understand where you are coming from because I understand what you teach, which is not rotation.....You don't understand what I'm saying because you do not understand rotation in the swing.....

MLB hitters do not rotate to swing.....What they do is load the body to swing and rotate to the ball......

"So what should a hitter look like, in your opinion, when he takes a pitch he decides not to take a pass at?"

Doesn't matter, he's decided not to swing and has released his load in the hips and shoulders......
L LOW337100+ posts
BLUEDOG....

LAST CHANCE PERIOD......

TELL ME OF YOUR PLAYING EXPERIENCE...YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TELL ME WHERE YOU LIVE, WHERE YOU PLAYED, WHERE YOU INSTRUCT.....

JUST TELL ME ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND.....DO YOU REMEMBER THIS THAT YOU WERE SO QUICK TO AVOID....?????????? YOU OBVIOUSLY CAN READ, BUT BY THE LACK OF ANY BEEF (answers to my questions) I AM BEGINNING TO THINK THAT YOU HAVE A SELECTIVE READING DISORDER..!!!!!

PLEASE correct me if I am wrong on the following statements!

1. You have NEVER played this game beyond High School.

2. All of the knowledge you have attained is purely from reading and observance.

3. You currently do not work w/ College or Professional hitters.

4. You have never faced a pitcher while playing at the college or professional level.

5. You have yet to answer one of my questions.

I believe your intentions are meaningful and well intended. But completely out of left field and very inaccurate.



PLEASE...PLEASE....PLEASE....tell me where I am wrong w/ the above statements....PLEASE...I'm on my knees begging you....
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
[quote]Yes...BEGIN...but not open up prior to foot landing.....

LOW, rotating into footplant means beginning the rotation.....The rotation is what forces the front foot to the ground......Once the brain says swing, the middle begins rotating and the front foot is forced to the ground....

The rotation doesn't begin with a front side pulling action from a firm front side.........It begins from the action of the middle and the front leg does become an axis.....But, the front side does not stop the weight shift momentum....The middle does....
L LOW337100+ posts
NOT THE ANSWERS I'M LOOKING FOR BLUEDOG....

TRY AGAIN....COME ON YOU CAN DO IT....

I FEEL WE HAVE THE SAME CORE BELIEFS BUT YOU DO A POOR JOB OF EXPLAINING IT.....

REMEMBER...US "GOOD OLE' BOYS" ONLY SPEAK PLAIN ENGLISH AND ARE NOT HIP TO YOUR NEW TECHNILOGICAL WAY OF SPEAKING...


"THE EXUBERENCE OF YOUR VERBOSITY IS TOO COPIOUS FOR ME TO DIMINUATE."

I'M JUST A DUMB REDNECK FROM SOUTHERN INDIANA W/ A TON OF USELESS EXPERIENCE (and eager to learn more, I might add).

Educate me Bluedog.....(but is Bluedog credible?)
Last edited by LOW337
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
jemaz, yes it is a dilemna trying to figure this stuff out.......But, if you want to bad enough, you will find a way.......It is up to you to help your son.....You can learn this stuff yourself or find someone who knows it, and can teach it, that your son can learn from.....

I can tell you this......People who say things like, I played on a high level and I know what I'm talking about, or, I coach at colleges and have credibility, clever aren't the right choice.....There are many of these types turning out poor to mediocre hitters day in and day out....Look elsewhere.....You can find what you're searching for......
Last edited by BlueDog
L LOW337100+ posts
begin quote from bluedog...PGStaff, is it better to emulate what Jaramillo teaches or to emulate what MLB hitters do?

IMO, MLB hitters are the best hitters in the world........I prefer to emulate them.....end quote from bluedog

As anyone would want to do....no secret there...

Best kept secret may be that Bluedog stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night....
Last edited by LOW337
trojan-skippertrojan-skipper1,000+ posts
Just a few observations from a neutral party.
A. Bluedog speaks Englishbey ... keep it coming dog, I'm learning... doesn't mean I'm buying the whole store but I'm learning.
B. Low: Keep it coming with the good solid advice.... give up on the begging though, makes you sound like your're playing in Double A with sandlot talent ... we really don't care where he played I want clips and good solid debate.
C. Jemaz, I haven't seen much of you before but I like what you have... keep it coming.
D. Where I do see Bluedog taking us is 'further' than that early rotation ****-ola that has kids spinning, swinging at the moon and falling back toward the catcher... man I wish more kids swung like that in our league my pitching staff would like like Koufax and Drysadale every day.
Have a nice night guys my wife just gave me last call.
N NYdad500+ posts
Bluedog,

Would you be kind enough sir to expand on the following statements that you made for clarification and educational purposes:

+++++
Yes the hips will will begin opening....What you don't understand, though, is that it's not about the hips opening......There's another part of the equation that is more important then the hips......
+++++

What is the other part of the equation - Would that be the shoulder blades? As I see it the hips open slightly (unlock) which allows the shoulders to rotate which brings the hips around.

+++++
MLB hitters do not rotate to swing.....What they do is load the body to swing and rotate to the ball......
+++++

The above appears to be a conflicting statement i.e. they don't rotate to swing but they rotate to the ball. As I understand it you don't rotate to load but do rotate i.e. unload to the ball thus there is some rotation involved. Is this a correct assumption?

+++++
There is no torque and no resistance....
+++++

Believe torque by defininition is a rotational force. Therefore would assume the more you load the greater the amount of torque that is created i.e. rotational force. So how can there be no torque?

Your comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
L LOW337100+ posts
If there is no torque then what purpose does the front foot being on the ground serve?

What is the purpose of an axis.....and can an axis be present before the front heel hits the ground?

A good base and balace must be present.....What role do the legs serve in the swing?.....How about the arms?....the eyes?....etc.....

enlighten me...
L LOW337100+ posts
quote:
MT07, LOW was implying there is some kind of rotation when MLB hitters are loading, or as he says, getting ready to swing.....I say rotation begins when the brain says swing and the hitter has already loaded.....

You got it right.....


Show me where I said that.....Show me....NEVER said that....have never even thought of such an absurd thing.....Very hard to start from dead stop ala Molitor and Moises Alou...only two I can think of that resemble very little load....getting ready to swing is simply a slight movement back w/ the hands, slight weight shift back....something to help generate a positive movement toward the pitcher....I NEVER SAID YOU ROTATE TO BEGIN SWING.....COME ON DUDE.....I THOUGHT YOU COULD AT LEAST READ....
L LOW337100+ posts
Bluedog.....

Let's try this....you are a RHH (that's right handed hitter)...facing a RHP w/ 88-90 mph FB...78-81 11/5 CB and AVG CH....What would your approach be against him in a one run ball game, late in game w/ 2 outs and man on second....let's say it's a Double A game and you are hitting 3rd in the line up.......WHAT IS YOUR APPROACH BEFORE YOU STEP INTO THE BOX?......Let's say he pitched you backwards in your first at bat w/ runners in scoring position.....Book pitched you in the second at bat w/ the bases empty.....walked you by book pitching you in your third at bat w/ a man on first......WHAT IS YOUR GENERAL APPROACH?
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